REED HASTINGS
NO RULES RULES
EPISODE 74
Finishing our 'Media Innovation' series, Mike and Mark turn the telescope to Netflix co-founder, Reed Hastings in Episode 74.
Reed Hastings is an entrepreneur and philanthropist, and is the co-founder and chief executive officer of Netflix. He is also on the board of the social networking website Facebook and several non-profit organizations. Reed's first book is out in September 2020: "No Rules Rules: Netflix and the Culture of Reinvention" (buy on Amazon), in which Reed reveals for the first time the unorthodox culture behind one of the world's most innovative, imaginative, and successful companies.
You can read the 2009 Netflix Culture Deck online.
SHOW OUTLINE
INTRO
How to be a good leader - have a north star, but don’t get distracted by it, be self-aware and listen to others
Foundation Capital Startup Stories_ Netflix
CULTURE & BUSINESS
Even if you don’t believe it, it’s possible that your business can get better as it gets bigger - you just have to change your frame of reference
Better As Bigger
If you want to win the championship or race, think and act like you’re on an Olympic team surrounded by the very best people and players
Sports team
Don’t dummy-proof because you’ll end up with Dummies - instead, think for yourself and trust those around you completely
Edge Of Chaos
QUICK MANTRAS FOR PROS
To keep fresh with your business and culture - and even when you’re an employee - education is king at staying in front
Always keep improving
Whether in an interview with Netflix or during your day-to-day business life, always stay curious and ask questions
Always be confident/curious
In business, we should all work at delivering the most joy possible to our customers - then they’ll stay with us
Always Deliver Joy
OUTRO - FINAL THOUGHT FOR SUCCESS
Finding it hard to agree with someone? It’s important to see and take note of both sides of a point of view because then you can model your behavior on the whole picture
Seek to understand
TRANSCRIPT
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Mike Parsons: Hello and welcome to the moonshot podcast. It is a wonderful episode 74 I'm your cohost, Mike Parsons, and as always I'm joined by my very special cohost, mr Mark Freeland. Mark, we are at a special point in this series. Are you pumped?
Mark Pearson-Freeland: I am pumped, actually. Good afternoon. I am very, very excited in who we're going to be digging into today.
The third installment of our media innovators series. Mike, who, who is it tell us,
Mike Parsons: Oh listen, I thought it was your job to introduce these precious, these special characters, but I'll give you a hint. Everybody. He works at a company, you are most definitely spending a lot of time with their digital service.
It is none other than drum roll cue. Are you ready? Mark? Hit him with it.
Mark Pearson-Freeland: It is Mr. Reed Hastings, CEO, chairman and co founder of Netflix, Netflix, which is a company. I think we could argue there's never really been a company like Netflix before. How's their mic? It's so unique in its own sort of way.
Mike Parsons: Well, I mean, let's be honest.
Um, when I, when I came into this world as a young kid, there was a couple of part time, uh, television stations on the television. So often during the day that there was nothing broadcast. Um. Actually in my day, some television was still black and white, heaven forbid. And now we're in a world where I haven't actually watched broadcast television at all this year.
All I watch is Netflix and YouTube. Um. Netflix has gone from being a DVD company to having 182 million subscribers around the world with over $5 billion and the way they get there. It's very much part of Reed's thinking, his culture, his approach, and I'm so excited about this show because we found a smorgasbord of clips that actually give us a lot of tips and secrets into how we can be.
Just like Reed Hastings. There's a lot to cover in there. What are you most excited about discussing when it comes to Reed Hastings, CEO and founder of Netflix?
Mark Pearson-Freeland: Well, he's quite well known for this, this culture deck of Netflix, and it's a business that has. Gone through so much change over those years, like you say, started out as an online DVD rental service, and it's one of those fascinating businesses that's genuinely, um, in so flexible at recreating itself several times over.
But always with Reed. At the heart. He's kind of at the helm of this ship, steering it in a number of different directions. And what I'm excited about getting into is learning from, read some of his talks and some of his tips at. Not only steering the culture of the business, but also how we might be able to operate on a slightly lesser scale.
You know, if you're not in control of the mission statement, for example, how might you go and behave in these sort of ways in order to drive innovation? Because that's ultimately what I think Reed has been doing it in Netflix. Constant innovation. Re imagination, uh, changing directions. It's a fascinating, fascinating business.
Fascinating chap.
Mike Parsons: Well, and what's so great is like many of our favorite innovators. He's actually pretty Frank and open. And particularly when they separated the business between DVD and streaming, it caused a real hoo ha with their customers. And they changed back to the old model. And he was very open saying, look, I stuffed up.
And, um, what you'll hear in some of the clips that we have for you today is. You know, this is pretty open about mistakes and even more so one of our favorite topics, he's really big on learning, and I think that's just one of the many gifts that we've got ahead for us. So we've got some big insights around culture.
We've got some fascinating and very practical tips. Around habits and little techniques that you can use every single day. And actually, I think we've got some, some really powerful thoughts around critical thinking. So it is a, it's a very exciting show. And what a Motley crew have our three, uh. Media innovation GIRs I mean, you couldn't get three more different guys.
You've got the Polish and the rigor of the jump for Leifer and Bob AIGA. You've got the Maverick himself, Mark Cuban, and I don't know, Mac, maybe somewhere in between. Yeah, Reed Hastings sort of has a bit of both of them. I mean, it's a pretty eclectic group right.
Mark Pearson-Freeland: I would agree. Reed does seem to land in the middle.
He is still a Maverick. He's been at Netflix for a long time as well. He's a bit of a lifer. He's. You know, gone in a number of different directions, but always sort of steered clear in one direction. I think he is. I think we've, we've, we've stumbled upon a bit of a middle ground. I have to met. The three of them have been a great triumvirate of getting into and learning some lessons and habits.
Really, really fun.
Mike Parsons: The, um. The, the, the, the gift of this media innovation series keeps on giving. And what a nice compliment, uh, to our women in innovation series who also brought a whole new basket, a whole collection of new thoughts, uh, new, uh, new insights. Uh, I'm, I'm really pumped up, but before we jump in, we've got to send people, we're going to send folks to the most important, uh, destination.
If you want to get. Our archive shows the show notes, uh, thought leadership, anything around learning from innovators. Mark, where do we
Mark Pearson-Freeland: got it? www.moonshots.io. That's the destination we'd love you to go and check out. As Mike said, it's full of our show notes, transcriptions, some of the clips and references to where you can find them.
We also host all of our, uh, YouTube. Um. A lot of our clips on YouTube as well. So that's another destination you can go and check out. But really it's all about moon shots that I have for us. And actually I, I'll take a quick
Mike Parsons: moment to shout out
Mark Pearson-Freeland: one of our recent reviews as well. That's come through Mike, if you,
Mike Parsons: if you're
Mark Pearson-Freeland: okay with that.
Yeah, it's Jodi, Jodi from Wisconsin and her Pater painter friend Anne. Thank you very much for listening and for leaving us a review. It really, really helps us and we really, really appreciate it. We love hearing from our fans, so. If everybody doesn't mind helping over, if they want to find out more about some of our episodes, future as well as archive, go and check out moonshots that IO and also leave us a little review in your podcasting app of choice.
Mike Parsons: Alright, I am ready to rock and roll. I am ready to get lights, camera action on the world of Reed Hastings and Netflix. And we are going to start with, um, actually it's been a real delight. We managed to find a really good, um, sort of introduction clip for Reed Hastings and already in him telling a little bit of his story.
Um, he gives us some insights in how to stay focused. To focus really on a destination. And I think just so all of our listeners know, this clip is a little bit longer than normal, but it's going to set the scene for a really exciting show. So let's get into it. Let's listen to Reed Hastings and him having a North star.
Reed Hastings: At the end of high school, I got a job selling rainbow vacuum cleaners and I was telling them door to door in the Boston suburbs area. Of course, there's a couple places I got thrown out of and other places where they want to. It was a fantastic, um, introduction to selling and luckily, uh, I still went to college.
The lucky break of my life was getting into Stanford graduate school in computer science in 86. In the past, I had never met entrepreneurs and I had put them on a pedestal, like they were godlike and all these ways, and so it really helps to be around some of them, to see their regular people with a good idea.
The thing I took away was with if they can do it, I can do it. I worked at a startup for two years. I have like a typical, you know, 25 girl programmer, have messy desks and lots of old coffee cups, you know, growing various funds. And I went into work one day really early and I caught the CEO. I'm cleaning my mugs in the bathroom.
No, he was like, Oh, have you been cleaning my mugs all year? And he said, yes. And I said, why? Uh, and he said, well, it was the one thing I could do for you. You know, you do so much for the company. And so I ended up feeling, of course, I caught that. I would follow that guy off the ends of the earth. And that's pretty much where he took the company.
And I learned so much in that I realized leadership is pretty nuanced because there's the personally endearing part about character and followship, and there's also the strategic part about not leading the company into a box Canyon. So it was a really good lesson on the time that I started my first company, I was 30 and everyone said, Oh, I was so young.
The fundamental is to be self aware enough that you want to learn and you learn through the criticisms and successes. of others at pure software, the company's culture was not that strong, and that was the beauty for me of getting a start over with Netflix because I realized that the trick in businesses figuring out what scenarios could grow into a material threat, because not all things will kill you.
And if you get distracted dealing with every possible threat, you'll be very unfocused. I think of management strategy like chess, where a human chess player has to examine a couple of key strategies, and mostly they're pruning the tree of possibilities. And if you prove correctly, you can see further down than the next person on the relevant paths.
From the day we started, we knew DVD was going to die and we named the business Netflix and on DVD by mail.com so we had an advantage over blockbuster that had a really great business in store rentals before it suddenly went away. But I wish we had realized how hard they worked on the attack, and there was a multi-year battle for survival between blockbuster and Netflix.
One quarter we shrunk because they were basically hitting us on price so hard. We underestimated them to our peril. Honestly, in hindsight, if they had started two years earlier when we were at that much smaller, they probably would have won. But they had quite a bit of debt, which constrained their flexibility and then ran out of money.
A great company is like jazz. You know, you want players who can improvise RC cause the climate is constantly changing in your learning along the way. But you also have to have great judgment like the chess player. So if you keep your North star, as, you know, how do I make the best product in this category for the people?
And to serve and then not get too distracted is probably a good place to be.
Mark Pearson-Freeland: Nice. It's a good long clip. I think that's a great introduction to read. It's
Mike Parsons: honest. It's inspiring.
Mark Pearson-Freeland: It reveals a
Mike Parsons: few
Mark Pearson-Freeland: great lessons that he's, he's stumbled upon over the years. But what I actually like about that clip is it shows his character.
He's this honest, open guy.
Mike Parsons: He's
Mark Pearson-Freeland: all about, I'm thinking about. Challenges and opportunities. From a management strategy perspective, obviously he talks about the importance of having North star, which
Mike Parsons: I love,
Mark Pearson-Freeland: but also he's referencing something that we'll visit a little bit more very, very soon in the episode culture as well as learning.
He's, he immediately references saying, I'm the CEO cleaning his car, and then he references some of the lessons that they saw from their competitor blockbuster. It's a good clip at illustrating. The importance of our state today. Looking around us, taking everything in and noting where our competitors are, where our colleagues
Mike Parsons: are,
Mark Pearson-Freeland: where the world is.
I think it's a nice, he reminded there. What'd you think, Mike?
Mike Parsons: I thought he was, I mean, how Frank and down to earth was just the whole way he spoke, like he wasn't. He's dislike us chatting. He's not like trying super hard to become across as a CEO. He's, he seems really comfortable in himself, which I think is so important for, for leaders and I, what I like is how quick he is to point out.
Well, we got smashed up by, by blockbuster, um, in the, uh, um, in a lot of his, um. Reference to learning. He talks about learning from failure, which I think is so important. It reminds us that it's not a dirty word. It's actually the most powerful thing if we choose to make it so. And I just love that as a, as a, as it sets us up to talk about how you create a great culture, how you survive the challenges that he mentioned.
I think he's set us on the right course. And, um, I think actually, you know. Outside of the content. What that was a reminder to me of is just be yourself. Just be the person you are. And that's a big part of leadership. And I think that's why he can tune into culture so well. Cause he's, he's, he's not spinning up his engines trying to be, you know, empirical or, um, you know, presidential.
He's just being. Read. And that sets us up to talk about culture and how you bring it alive and how your frame of reference really needs to change as you grow your business. So we're gonna start, um, uh, by learning from Reed, um, how they actually, as a company, they get better as they get bigger.
Reed Hastings: Yeah, I think everyone tries to build culture and values.
At first. You know, you have to stage it with a company to the degree that your 20 people and you've got no revenue. It's sort of a very implicit culture. And you know, you spend time on, you know, things that could kill you. Like, you know, product, market fit. Um, and that's appropriate. And then, you know, later, if you're going to last.
Then you say, okay, how do we make sure that as new people come in, the culture gets better? And one of the big things is probably this idea that you get better as you get bigger. So everyone implicitly has the idea that, you know, you start sucking as you get bigger, more political, harder to get stuff done, and you have to actively fight acceptance of that and come up with very concrete examples.
Where like Netflix is significantly better in culture than three and five years ago, and then 10 years ago in 15 and why is because we got more brains thinking about the problem. This is where Malphurs really went wrong. So of course Malphurs in the late 17 hundreds said, everyone's going to starve because you look at all the people growth.
Then you look at the fixed agriculture and they didn't realize that, you know, basically. People grew the ideas to improve agriculture would also improve. And so we've had a massive explosion in agricultural productivity and the ability to feed 7 billion people, which he would be shocked
Mike Parsons: by. Right.
Reed Hastings: And it's the same thing in company culture, which is if you have more, you know, if you have a thousand really thoughtful people thinking
Mike Parsons: about how to improve,
Reed Hastings: you make more progress than if you've got a hundred and so we are actually getting better as we get bigger.
Um, but it's constantly changing the frame of reference. That's really what the leader does. Um, you know, that this is possible and that in fact, we should aspire to it and
Mike Parsons: make it happen.
Mark Pearson-Freeland: Yeah. There's this combination between having a leader who drives the direction simultaneously, having a team around you who are helping you prune those trees.
So going back to the first clip. Read saying right, no matter how busy things get, you can always prune those trends away and see where you're going. It feels to me as though, you know, by combining leaders as well as all the founders, essentially, who may well begin with one really clear insight as to, okay, this is what we want to do.
This is our product market fit. This is our mission statement.
Mike Parsons: Once you start
Mark Pearson-Freeland: adding people around yourself. There is that risk of going a little bit off piece, but actually you are supported by your colleagues and by those thinkers and doers that get placed around you as well. That's sort of helping you along that journey on their mind.
Mike Parsons: Yeah, so I guess the question is, so how do we do it? Like how do we. Uh, contribute in a way to our companies so that they can get better as they get bigger. And the first suggestion I've got is I think about how can I do this is I think treat every hire in the company as if it's the last person you're going to be able to hire, like cherish the opportunity, uh, to hire.
And really. Be rigorous and it reminds me a little bit of something Mark and Jason said, which is, you're only as good as your worst person. And what he means there is if you hire someone who's not really a good fit, but you just want to fill the seat, then. You're, you're dropping the level of the whole organization.
And in a funny way, Reed is saying the same thing here. What he's saying is every person should be adding, uh, to the, like brainpower, uh, thinking about culture and the behaviors of contributing. To that culture and everything that they do. So for me, this is a huge reminder. Every person you hire is a contributor to the culture.
So ask yourself, do we get better when we add this person to the team? Do they bring good. Thinking, do they bring new thinking? Do these guys demonstrate a level of ownership that we really need someone to come in and take hold of things? I think that's what he's reminding us to do. So my question for you, now you've, you've heard read and he's talking about getting, um, better as you get bigger with a big emphasis on the quality of the people.
Thinking about the problem, what do you take out of this? If you want to make. The culture, uh, at Colton's better. What do you, what, what comes to your mind? How might you do it?
Mark Pearson-Freeland: I think it starts with being aligned and understanding what the business does. I think there's a, there's a functional logistic operational.
Mike Parsons: Layer
Mark Pearson-Freeland: that I suppose sets when you're sitting at home and you're reading the job description, thinking, okay, well do I deliver X, Y, and Z? But also on the other side of that coin, there's an emotional one, and that's what I think. Is the really, really important thing to, to cultivate. And I think what Reed has has always demonstrated with his culture deck, and there's a lot of work online and interviews around the HR process for, for Netflix.
Mike Parsons: Um,
Mark Pearson-Freeland: when I think about my job and qualities and what I do with my team is, okay, well how can I help. Mow those around me. How can I help my colleagues? How can I ask better questions? How can I push their work forward? How can I be, you know, a really great team player, uh, getting us to that ultimate goal, whether it be a project being delivered or actually growing the company, growing the region?
Mike Parsons: Well, you know what's really interesting in this next clip, we've got Reed Hastings literally laying down the key. Word and the key concept. So you know, many people make the mistake of thinking that, you know, great business should be like a family. And I think what Reed Hastings has is a much better metaphor.
So let's have a listen to read, talking about culture and business and building a team. Like it's a sports team.
Reed Hastings: Yeah. We're like a professional sports team and we want to win a championship in our area, and we're very honest with people that it's about performance. It's not about seniority, it's not about politics and working in Netflix, it's like being on an Olympic team and it's really hard, but you do your best work when you're surrounded by people who are really talented and try hard.
And so we try to be very
Mike Parsons: respectful,
Reed Hastings: but it's fundamentally about performance for us and we try to be clear about it because it's not for everyone. We want people who join Netflix to know how we operate, and the professional sports team is the closest analogy.
Mike Parsons: Thank you.
Mark Pearson-Freeland: Yeah. This for me rings true. It rings very much to the core of me actually, because when I do join a business or go and get assigned to a project, I think to myself, okay, well what does it mean to me?
How can I work as hard as possible? Because ultimately. It matters. You know, everything that I do ladders up to the ultimate final delivery of whatever it might be, and I'm a firm believer in you get out of it what you put in. So this analogy that that Reed is using. Is is a real driver for me because I'm thinking, okay, well, if I am surrounded by the very best people and the very best players, that right raises me up, I need to be performing to the best of my ability.
I need to be trying as hard as I can, and that's probably a good motivator. I
Mike Parsons: like that. I like being surrounded by that as a tool. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's not, uh, it's not unlike when you go to the gym and everyone's working out really hard. I mean, you, you instantly like, geez, I'm really getting into it today.
You know, I think it's about creating an environment where everyone's, um, you know, 100% trying to perform doesn't mean you can't have fun. But when push comes to shove, people are, are really performing at their best. Now obviously, it's like executing tasks is very much what performance is about. Um, and.
It's also about, um, you know, ideas and the exchange of ideas. So I wonder my, when we talk about what he's really saying is, the way he's built Netflix is, it's a meritocracy, right? Those that perform rise to the top. Um, and. When you think about what does it take, uh, to be great as a team in business or if like me, you're totally addicted to the last dance, the, the Michael Jordan documentary on Netflix and ESPN.
When you look at what it takes to be a great sports team, what are some of the attributes that come to your mind map? Like if you, if you fondly remember your favorite sports teams, or you remember moments in the office where we've been great. What, what characterizes greatness? If we're like a sports team, what do we see?
What are the behaviors?
Mark Pearson-Freeland: Hmm. I think one of the. Real behaviors is driving for total alignment. So if I'm on a sports team to you to continue that analogy, I want to know that all of those around me are driving us towards the goal, the finish line,
Mike Parsons: the, uh,
Mark Pearson-Freeland: the difference between staying where we are and elevating ourselves in the championship.
When I'm around business and colleagues, I think it's similar thing. I'm thinking, how do I stay aligned with the business? How do I stay aligned with my colleagues and how do I help them? You know, if they're going to help me. Continue to play my best game. How do I support them without tripping anybody on the field?
Mike Parsons: Well, yeah, I think you're absolutely right. Communication. I mean, um, having coached, um, rugby, what I can tell you is that one of the hallmarks of a great rugby team is they're always communicating their position where they are. So verbally giving cues. I'm here, I'm here, I'm here. Um. Another thing is calling plays people understanding the place, having a plan and sticking to the plan.
And I think the other thing, and we mentioned it a little bit earlier, is this ownership thing. I mean, if you own your performance, and in doing so, know that if you're backing up your teammate. Even though it's their play. If you're backing up and double-checking, you might catch one or two little things in the office.
If you just help someone review their work, double check, uh, say, let's do a quick review together. That to me is where one plus one equals three, and that's team. That's where you've got individual performance coming. Together, I think, isn't it great that we can look, uh, at Reed Hastings and learn from him that it really comes down to performance and the focus on performance, but also doing that within a team context.
Um, I think it's really inspiring to see such a great company is truly built as a meritocracy built on merit built on the things that you deliver, that you do, the way you play the game. I think that's really inspiring to email. Yeah,
Mark Pearson-Freeland: I really do. One of the things I enjoy most of our work is when I feel ownership of a, of a product or a or a project, you know, when you feel empowered, you, you want to try your hardest and do your best work, and that's very, very.
Um, empower, motivating,
Mike Parsons: I mean, and, and so it's good to do. It's even better when the result and the outcome is really good. Yeah. That always helps. Now, so what's really interesting though, is that. You know, great sports teams, like great companies can sometimes fall into the trap that they have one set of plays and they become obsessed with only playing that way.
Like they become too scripted. They seem to lack spontaneity and creativity. Well, just like you might see in a sports team, you see it exactly the same. At work and we've got this great, great, great clip right now where, um, Reed is going to warn us for over controlling or micromanaging the business. In fact, he's great challenge to us is that he describes the way they work and you'll never believe it.
He's going to talk to us about working on the edge of chaos.
Reed Hastings: You know, the great thing about being able to do two companies, right? Life is not making the same mistakes. So in the first company as we grew and went public, we put in, excuse me, a lot of process because we had the idea if we could just eliminate errors, think how good we can be.
And so every time something went wrong, we put in a new process and we were so proud that we dummy proof the system. And what we didn't realize is if you dummy proof the system. Only dummies want to work there.
Mike Parsons: And
Reed Hastings: so then the market changed and all of the kind of innovative, crazy thinkers had gone and everybody was still there, was really good about following the rules, but the market had shifted.
This was the rise of Java and the internet, and we were unable as a company to adapt. And that's when it hit for me. Short term optimization about being efficient is the death of longterm success and innovation, and that we should build a company in Netflix that tolerated some short term chaos. And we manage right on the edge of chaos.
And the value of that is keeping and stimulating the amazing thinkers. So when the market shifts like DVD to streaming or license to expand to original content, we have within Netflix, all kinds of original thinkers. And that's the longterm optimization that all of us and organizations want. And so that's really fueled.
The passion behind the culture deck, which is why short term rules and process kill longterm health and innovation.
Mike Parsons: And you think that the freedom, responsibility balance instead of saying play by these rules help people to be more adoptive.
Reed Hastings: Absolutely. Because it focuses people on having to think for themself.
So we always want people to think, and then when you attract
Mike Parsons: thinkers,
Reed Hastings: you're much more adapt because it's not following the rule book is how to succeed,
Mike Parsons: decide to get into original content. Well, I didn't,
Reed Hastings: I thought it was a bad idea. Luckily, in freedom and responsibility, you trust the people you work with, and Ted Sarandos, who was also a crown fellow when he's here tonight.
so Ted fell in love with house of cards and with the basic idea of moving into original content. And said, trust me, it's only a hundred million dollars. And so I did, and he was worth it. And out of that, the world got house of cards.
Mark Pearson-Freeland: I mean, it's, it's another great and quite meaty clip. There's lots and lots to delve into.
It would have been a lot of fun to be there to hear him do that speech. Um, the areas that, for me, Mike stood out is. And what about not lacking spontaneity? I love this, you know, push by Reed for us to, you know, sometimes go and break the rules. That sounds like one of the main drivers of Reed's career. He has an always stuck between the lines.
He does approach challenges as well as opportunities with a slightly different out of the box approach, which I, which I really realized that in a bit, but also throwing yourself at chaos. It's almost as though he's telling us, okay, go and find something that you see as the challenge to your business.
Say streaming versus online DVD, and. How Oh, you sad about it. Go and figure out how you might be able to get into that space. And I think that's kind of a demonstration of his innovation and his, his way of thinking.
Mike Parsons: Yeah. The, the, I mean, what he's talking about is, you know, living somewhere between, you know, chaos and structure.
Um. And particularly in a knowledge economy, you know, ideas of what, when, and then you know, the structure to get them done is, is what brings home the money. I think what's, what's really fascinating is he, the CEO thought something was a bad idea. Yet. This other guy came to and said, no, no, we should do this.
It turns out to have been a huge win for them because not only was house of cards massive, it opened up now and massive, a full frontal attack that they are doing on original content. I mean, can you imagine that, uh, four years ago they weren't making their own shows at all, and it now makes up a huge piece of their offering.
Yeah.
Mark Pearson-Freeland: Netflix originals is huge. I mean, to be Frank, I have a feeling that I may have even signed up originally back in the day for house of cards. Come to think of it.
Mike Parsons: Oh, there you go. Now, now let's bring this back to ourselves and to the listeners. Here's the challenge. How do we. Live and survive. How do we thrive in between structure and chaos?
I think this is the challenge he's putting before us now, and what I'm going to propose to you is something that resonates so strongly with me, which is as long as you have a clear mutual expectation between. Yourselves as colleagues and as a team. And when I say expectation, I mean it's like. Ownership, number one, communicating.
Number two, curiosity. Number three, and number four, desire to be an expert in something. If we all hold those values to be true, we don't need to worry too much about structures because if you totally own the outcome of the work that you do and you're communicating and sharing and collaborating and learning along the way.
Don't worry, it's all gonna turn out good for me. Those are the pillars and which you can then let go on structure because you're so deeply aligned on values. And that's what this culture deck, um, that he often refers to. And we've referred to, by the way. For all of our listeners, we'll have a link to the culture deck in our show notes.
It is well worth your while. In fact, Cheryl Sandberg said recently, it's the most important document on the internet. She uses it a lot. I, I'm always using particularly the emphasis on highly aligned. Um, so this is some of some thoughts on, on how I think about living between there. But Mark. How do you see yourself?
What are the things did you do to, to live some way near the edge of chaos? How do you have just enough structure and just enough freedom?
Mark Pearson-Freeland: Yeah, I do like your four columns, your four pillars. I think that's great. Um, and just before I turn the mirror on myself, I think just to add to your, your pillars,
Mike Parsons: it's nice
Mark Pearson-Freeland: that once you.
Have those four pillars aligned for each individual. There is that trust. That foundation is so strong that you don't need to go really, really deep into logistics, planning and so on, so forth.
Mike Parsons: Because you've got
Mark Pearson-Freeland: between one another.
Mike Parsons: Let me, let me just double down for a second. Yeah. If you have total ownership and you're a good communicator, I don't need to worry about you getting stuff because you will communicate that you're stuck.
You will ask for help because you want to learn and because you have the outcome of the work you're doing in mind. So it's not the classic thing of if I don't ask no one or tell no because of those values, I don't need to worry. You'll just come to me when you've got a problem that like I can't tell you how important.
This is how you live on the edge of chaos. But the thing is if, if you and I are working together and I haven't been explicit about my need for you to own something, my need for you to communicate with me, then how can I have how I have no reason to have the entitlement of sitting in my seat and say, Oh, well Mark, reach out if he needs me.
If we never made that explicit at the start, then what's going to happen is something is going to go wrong. And we're all gonna find out about it too late. However, if you have alignment on values, how you want to behave with each other. That you will always take ownership. You always communicate. Then I can, I can actually step back and I can give you space in this example and say, go for it.
Cause I know you will raise your hand if you're in trouble. I mean this is essential to living on the edge of chaos. Reed talks a lot about it in the deck, but Mark, let's turn it back on you. How are you going to, how are you going to live on the edge of chaos?
Mark Pearson-Freeland: I genuinely, I genuinely believe that living on that edge, that blade of between.
Uh, chaos and so on. It is, it's thinking for yourself. You know, I, I think if I'm wondering, okay, well, where, how far is too far? Am I leaning over one side or the other? Am I not challenging myself and the opportunity enough? I will, I have to think for myself and challenge myself and question, okay, well, what is it that I'm doing?
And I think to tie into. What you were just
Mike Parsons: illustrating there.
Mark Pearson-Freeland: That's the empowerment. That's the ownership. So when I have received direction, when I have received that responsibility. It is. Then the ball is in my court to think for myself. So actually I feel like they're very, very connected and quite aligned.
I think that Blake and that line between the chaos is when you have that total alignment between people, that communication, the sports team, Hey, I'm over here, so and so's over there. We're knowing where people are. It's all about the individuals owning and thinking for themselves, and that's where I think.
I challenged myself and how I stay on the right side of, you know, boredom and chaos.
Mike Parsons: So, uh, another thing is I think this is such an important opportunity, um, to, to share, um, um, with, uh, our, amongst ourselves or with our listeners. I would propose this, I, I think whenever you're in a collaborative project.
And you find yourself starting to blame, even in the conversation in your head that you are blaming others. This should be a massive red flag because what you're essentially doing is. Letting go, reducing your sense of ownership and saying, well, it's not my fault. It's their fault. They didn't do that because actually someone who's a high performance member of a high performance team will turn around and ask of themselves, what can they do to help that person perform better?
Rather than hands in the air. Oh, well, not me. So I have this because I have this tendency for attributing blame, so I'm always like, no, no, no. If I was the coach, if I have their performance really vested into my responsibilities, the question becomes, okay. What can I do better to improve their performance?
What can I do better to contribute to them? Or maybe they just need a tip. Maybe they need a chat. Maybe they need a vacation, who knows? But whatever it takes to help them getting back to performing. That is, that's the upside and the flag of when you're getting away from that. When you're departing from the Netflix model, I think that's when you're starting just to point fingers and for me, that's a big flag that I always call my cell phone so that we can still get to the outcome regardless of who's up, who's down in terms of performance.
We can all band together.
Mark Pearson-Freeland: No. I think that's really, really valuable. That's a nice insight to share. I think it can be very challenging to accept or be aware of one's own behavior. So the fact that you know, it's one of the things that you fall into and therefore, you know, you've got the opportunity, then slap your hand and say, Oh wait, hang on.
I'm doing what I what I always do. That's quite a good. Less than quite a good value and awareness, uh, add to have. Um, I don't know whether I could call off the top of my head as similar, a similar thing, to be honest,
Mike Parsons: but I do love that,
that,
Mark Pearson-Freeland: that honesty there. I, my thinking had on it for the next episode.
I'll make sure I have a, a similar, similar insight.
Mike Parsons: Well, while you think about that, I just want to remind all of our listeners. That we're at at the kind of midpoint of getting some really big ideas, uh, from Reed, how to live on the edge of chaos. How we're really like a sports team. And really every person you hire should be a net contributor to the culture to make you better.
I mean, these are some fantastic things that we can get from read. Don't forget. That we will have a link to the culture deck from, from Netflix in our show notes, and you can get those. Mark, what is the destination? It is
Mark Pearson-Freeland: moonshots.io.
Mike Parsons: Right
Mark Pearson-Freeland: destination soon to be as large as Netflix, I reckon.
Mike Parsons: I think so. I mean, give us a couple of weeks and we're totally there.
So now we're going to make a little bit of an interesting, uh, pivot. Uh, we're going to go into things obviously related to culture. I mean, this is one of Reid's big things, but what we're going to do is move into a couple of things that are applicable on a very personal level. Uh, they might be habits or rituals that you can get into.
And I think this is a very complimentary set of thoughts and ideas, inspiration from none other than Mr. Reed Hastings, CEO and founder of Netflix. And this first shot in the arm, uh, for all of you, our listeners, um, is about improvement. So let's have a listen to read Hastings to learn how we might always keep on learning.
So then the question is reading, read, what do you do
Mark Pearson-Freeland: to not lose the culture? If
Mike Parsons: you believe you got a great one
Reed Hastings: early on. Yeah, I mean, one of the most common questions new employee asks is how do we preserve the culture? And I say, well, to preserve something, to pickle it is the wrong solution. We're not trying to preserve the culture, we're trying to make it better, and it's materially better than it was five years ago.
And I'll cite a couple of specific examples and then say, you know what, your job in addition to doing your role is to figure out how do we get. Cause it's only when you struggled to get better that you know, you really keep it vital that alive. So you always have to be saying, yeah, it's pretty good culture, but I'm sure it can be better.
How can we be better? It's that struggled to improve, that keeps it fresh.
Mark Pearson-Freeland: And not only is it a struggle or a vision that Reed's talking about with business, I think it's also applicable to us as individuals. You know, for me, I can own my ability at being the best version of myself. I can own how much work I put into things, my performance, as well as my, as, as you were saying, Mike, uh, recognition.
If I, if I blame others, you know, it's all about this communication for planning. Um, I like that clip because it's. Telling me, okay, well, don't just sit on your laurels.
Mike Parsons: Don't
Mark Pearson-Freeland: allow yourself to kind of get caught up in the wind or the waves and let things just take you along for the journey. Make sure that your value adding and creating enormous.
Difference for those around you as well as the business.
Mike Parsons: Yeah. I mean, he's really reminding us not to stand still, isn't he? Exactly. Um, and so I love it. I love the way in which he challenges us, that, you know, culture as an individual and as a group is, should always be improving. And my, my biggest sort of aha as I think about how to embody this idea of always improving is.
Whether you're talking about yourself or your team. Invariably, those are deeply interlinked in a business setting. The key thing for me is to make small but very regular improvements. Now, if I said to you, um, we must do. 20% more projects every year. You would think to yourself, that feels so daunting.
Right? That's a lot of work. I can't, I can't, yeah. Like, I mean, what, you don't want me to sleep, I mean, come on. However, if I just said to you, how about every week we, um, we improve our efficiency on projects by 1%. And then the following week, it's 1% the following week after that is 1% actually that doesn't feel too hard to digest, but net net after a year of 52 weeks of improvement of 1% every single week.
The outcome is actually pretty remarkable. And I think that if we do want to keep on proving because it can feel change, can feel relentless. And I think it's when we just make it simple and digestible and immediate and, uh, that's when we can like, okay. Yeah. 1% better is okay. Okay. So we just have to do, deliver this one, one document extra this week compared to last year.
Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, let's see if we can do that. That. That's continuous improvement and it's just keep on trucking, be disciplined. And before you know it, after you, you're like, wow, have we improved? I think that's, that's at the heart of what we can take. Uh, that. So Mark, you know, we're talking about this constant improvement, but you've got to have the right mental models.
You've got to be thinking about things in the right way. And I think there's a lot to learn from net, uh, from, from Reed Hastings in this part today.
Mark Pearson-Freeland: Yeah, I really do. This is a nice clip that we're about to listen to because it references a little bit of the culture deck we've spoken about. We've briefly mentioned some of the methods and techniques they have when hiring for teams at Netflix here.
It's a great lesson for us to take away in our day to day life, encouraging us to stay curious and ask more questions.
Mike Parsons: Is part of the interviewing process.
Reed Hastings: Do you have essentially a culture check like that, but not like a checklist? Culture is always something that we interview for, um, of kind of curiosity and, and, uh, you know, it's easy to find people who say, Oh, I read the Netflix culture deck.
I love it. I really want to be there. You know, what's harder is old, you know. What are the main things you disagree with and why? And when we get a blank stare or like, okay, not really a first principle thinker. And when they say, well, I thought the way that you didn't talk about how to acculturate, and you know, if I'm not great in day three, am I out.
You know, or is there, you know, do you look at it like an athlete where it's over some time period to prove yourself? And if so, what's that time period and why haven't you clarified that? They were like, Oh yeah, that's a good insight. First principle thinker. So we're looking for people who are curious, typically self-confident, and they're not.
They're questioning everything around them.
Mike Parsons: This is challenging because what, what Reed Hastings is effectively saying to us here is not only do you need to be curious, but you need to be confident in your thinking. And what's really interesting is you can almost look at the gifts that we're getting from Reed Hasting as one.
Is in culture. Right? But the second one is in this freedom of thought of thinking better, thinking different. Um, this is where. I mean, one read is giving us a lot, but to your, I mean this is a lot to digest, but what's also really interesting is how the way you think and the way you're behaving in the, in the team as a culture, how interlinked the picture that Reed is, is really painting for us is that they're so interlinked.
I find this quite surprising to see them so closely aligned. Are you Mark.
Mark Pearson-Freeland: Yeah, I do. I mean, every idea he's essentially saying every a day idea is up for debate. You know, even the culture deck, which you know, we've now mentioned maybe a dozen times, which we're sort of heralding as an amazing resource.
What Reid's saying here is question it. Don't take everything and every idea for granted and don't assume that everything is correct
Mike Parsons: because what makes
Mark Pearson-Freeland: the best teams and the best employees is when you are a first principle thinker. When you were thinking, what can I add to this? Yes. And where do we want to go with X idea?
And I think that for me is it can be a bit of a challenge,
Mike Parsons: right?
Mark Pearson-Freeland: It's quite challenging to hear an idea or a presentation or. Um, any sort of messaging or communication and naturally veer towards, Hmm, how could I disagree with it? Because I think naturally we are trained to be quite accommodating with one another.
And I don't think necessarily saying. Go out and challenge one another for the sake of it. I think what he's saying is don't just blindly accept something. Think about how you might be able to add to it because of your background, your upbringing, your experience. Everybody has a different formula or,
Mike Parsons: or model behind
Mark Pearson-Freeland: them.
That has led us to this point.
Mike Parsons: And what I love about
Mark Pearson-Freeland: this drive and push towards being first principle thinkers is. That's something that, again, you can own your own. That ability,
Mike Parsons: right? And we can learn a lot from, um, ed Catmull, the founder of Pixar here, who we did way back in episode eight feels like a lifetime ago.
And he talked about creating safety of thought. Because if people feel really safe in their thoughts, then they feel free and allowed to say things that might be contradictory to. The defacto thinking and the bias within the organization and what you're clearly seeing here is the opportunity for us to understand that if we can create a way for people to meaningfully.
Discuss, maybe argue may be way up different factors and contrary and thinking good things are gonna happen. When that happens. I mean, to some of Reid's earlier points. I mean, if, if, if you're just making everything dummy proof, then there's going to be no critical thought. Um, now what's, what's really interesting about this is if you are.
Hooked on the Reed Hastings playbook, then you're like, okay, it's about culture. It's being better together, living on the educators, not micromanaging things. I'm with you. You've gotta be improving. You gotta be curious. But what he does for us now is to talk about bringing everything together. You've got to have, and, and sort of an organizing principle, like a central idea, a North star.
Um. Hey, sometimes we even called them a lighthouse, and in the case of Netflix, um, their North star is this idea of always delivering joy. So let's have a listen now to read Hastings talking about how Netflix delivers joy.
Reed Hastings: We collect this year about $8 billion of customer's money. So thank you, all of you for giving us your money.
And what we do is we say that money's in trust to create joy. We have to turn that into the most joy possible. And so we look and we say for every show, if a show cost a hundred million dollars, how much joy, how much viewing did it create amongst all of you? Uh, if it cost 50 million or 200 million, of course you want different amounts of joy.
And so we look at it as how much joy can we create of your money? And if we turn it into joy effectively, then you're happy and you tell your friends and we grow. And then we have more money next year to turn into more joy. So we're, we think of ourselves like alchemists. We take in money, the outcomes, joy.
Mark Pearson-Freeland: It's a lovely little mantra because. I feel quite connected again, w you know, read, is this a amicable and quite authentic and honest guy
Mike Parsons: and it's quite,
Mark Pearson-Freeland: it's quite an unusual admission for somebody who's worth four point $6 billion. He. Is calling out loop. We take your money, it's great, but it's only an investment.
We're funneling it into new content, new original TV shows and films. And ultimately the reason why it's not just to keep you entertained, but it's to create advocates for the business. And I personally, I feel
Mike Parsons: quite connected
Mark Pearson-Freeland: to that business because of this approach. And it's something that I'm sure almost every business does, you know, including Apple and so on.
But I think
Mike Parsons: reads.
Mark Pearson-Freeland: Awareness and acknowledgment of it for me, feels very, very inspiring. And actually it's something that I'm going to try and take away and think about when I'm doing projects now. Well, as in the future. You know, it just feels a little bit more
Mike Parsons: transparent,
Mark Pearson-Freeland: I think is the word.
Mike Parsons: Yeah. And very similar to Bob Iger, in fact, in Bob is very focused on being a happy minute happiness machine at Disney.
And he's really, you know, he celebrated the joy in which he felt in bringing that happiness to millions, if not billions. And in the same way. Netflix has it too. I think it's very similar. If you actually break down really great companies such as zoom video, um, they have a really big, uh, uh, vision about what.
They wanted to bring frictionless video and the happiness that can come through connection with others. It's really funny how there are just these incredibly simple, yet sort of simple, powerful human shrews that often become the organizing principle of these insanely successful companies. And we're seeing it again here from, from Reed Hastings and Netflix.
I think we've gone time for just one more clip, Mike. But we need, we need a final thought. We need a closing argument for why there is so much to learn from Reed Hastings at Netflix. Where should we go.
Mark Pearson-Freeland: Well, I think culminating a lot in what we've discussed, it's a lot about teams. It's transparency,
Mike Parsons: it's
Mark Pearson-Freeland: collaboration, and for, for Reed and Netflix, and even something that you referenced earlier, sometimes we all find it a little bit hard to agree with colleagues and other people.
But what is important to take away and what Reed's going to tell us a little bit about now is it's important to see. Both sides have a point of view, so then you can model your behavior on the entire picture. Things kind of get covered up
Mike Parsons: cause people don't want to confront things. How does that work?
You know,
Reed Hastings: we're never brutal. I mean, we're always honest. Um, but we're always respectful and trying to w when we do the Stephen Covey, seek first to understand then to be understood and we're always trying to tease out why would a good person do something. I don't seem to make sense. And so we ask, we're curious.
We really don't have that academic. You know, let's beat each other up and out of that will come the truth. We say we're not like prosecutor and defense where they're extremist in the search of truth. We're more like the Supreme court where you try to take both sides of every issue and understand it, and that's the model, the behavior we have.
Mike Parsons: It's on you seeing both sides and it's not always easy, but if you start, uh, with this idea that there's always two sides to a point of view, there's always two sides to an idea. I mean, this is, this is really the essence of seeing pros and cons. The essence of critical. Thinking, and I mean, it's a bit sneaky of rate.
He's already told us a bunch today on how to think about culture and improvement and curiosity, even delivering joy. And then he comes with that one muck. So question team, or how do we see both sides of an eye?
Mark Pearson-Freeland: Well, I think it's the admission in ourselves that all. Our point of view or response is subjective.
So I may not immediately see another person's point of view because I'm a product of not only my upbringing, but maybe even my morning, you know, I may have
Mike Parsons: been
Mark Pearson-Freeland: distracted in the short term as well as the long term. So I think Reid's saying here, in order to be honest, uh, be curious. Um. Be driven towards collaboration.
We not only
Mike Parsons: need to
Mark Pearson-Freeland: share and collaborate ourselves to other people, but also be open when other people are offering or asking for a chance to collaborate with us.
Mike Parsons: Yes. Yeah. And let's build on that for a while because I think you're absolutely right. He is. Here's a couple of pragmatic things. Um, because I think I fell victim to loving my own ideas way too much in my early career, but I think it's always the starting point that people hold bias.
Our history and our context brings bias. So look at how different the women in innovation series was to the media innovation series. And one of the things is that, you know, what you could clearly see is all those women were fighting big battles. Before they got to the battle of the idea, they were just saying, Hey, I'm a woman.
Would you please listen right now? That creates a bias on both sides of the equation. I think another thing is like once you know that there's bias around, I think one of the great practical tips we can give our listeners is to distinguish the difference between an a an opinion and a fact.
The difference between fact and fiction is really, really important. And he actually, if you go into the art of critical thinking and we think about read, telling us to understand is you can start with, Hey, we got biased too. Um, we really need to dig in there and actually work out. Is that a fact or is that like your opinion?
And then lastly. To qualify if it is a fact to qualify it properly or if it's an opinion to qualify that. And what you will find in the search for truth and in for the search of both sides of any argument is if you do a good job of, is that really the case? Show me, prove it to me. If that's your opinion, tell me how you got there.
And lastly, qualify and understand. The fact of the opinion before you jump to conclusion, and I think
Mark Pearson-Freeland: this is
Mike Parsons: very, this is a work in progress for us, or I'm always trying to not jump five steps ahead, but just to methodically take my time, gather the facts, gather the insights. But if we do that, I think we can start along that journey to understanding both sides of a point of view.
Mark Pearson-Freeland: I totally agree. I. I'm putting my hands up. I very, very quickly jumped to either conclusions or action. It's very easy to jump into saying, right, I'm going to go and do this, but actually try to encourage my. My own being to, to take that beat, to ask those questions of, uh, another person's point of view so that I myself can be curious, you know?
Right. Like Reed's telling us always be learning. And when you don't have that tendency to, to listen, and instead of a tendency for action. You know, that's sometimes where things can come off the rails perhaps.
Mike Parsons: And you can totally see how we, how we get off track. Because if we jumped to conclusions and we only saw one point of view and we thought we acted like the F the opinion was actually a fact, and we went and built this huge expensive product only to realize it was built on the completely wrong insight.
I mean, you see how that happens in companies. All the time. And so if you can have the art of critical thinking, seeing both sides of the equation, you can go a long way, maybe 182 million registered users way Allah, Netflix, Marky Mark. This one has been a biggie, hasn't it? That's
Mark Pearson-Freeland: been good. That's, that's a lot of clips.
Um, a couple of really, really meaty ones. A lot of tips. Uh, and, and what a series, the media innovator series,
Mike Parsons: you
Mark Pearson-Freeland: know, Bob, Mark and read what a triumph for it. What fun
Mike Parsons: a kitchen. Imagine if you had that Motley crew around a dinner table with a glass of wine,
Mark Pearson-Freeland: the five of us rounds at the dinner table.
Mike Parsons: That, that is what, yeah, no prizes for guessing.
Who would be the cheekiest? I mean, there's gotta be Mark Cuban for sure.
Mark Pearson-Freeland: Gotta be you gotta be, but then read is all about breaking the rules,
Mike Parsons: but then again, they may all behave because Bob's in the room.
Mark Pearson-Freeland: Now everybody's in bed on time. You know, he's, he's the, he's the good one.
Mike Parsons: Yeah. Yeah. Well, listen, um, that brings us to the end of our media innovators series. Um, hot off the press following our women in innovation series. So all of those, you can get all the archives@moonshots.io but ma. We are just like Reed Hastings and Netflix.
We are not standing still. We are thinking about what's next and we again to go for the first time in a, we're going to go deep on a three part series on one. Author, uh, we are going to go deep into the world or somebody who is, I would say he is, uh, at least, um, a, a peer, if you will, of a Simon Sinek. Um, Mark Jason Freeland, who is next, I'm on our journey into learning from innovators.
Mark Pearson-Freeland: It is psychologist and Ted talker, Mr.
Mike Parsons: Adam Grant, very, very
Mark Pearson-Freeland: prolific chap. Uh, and somebody that we can't wait to sink our teeth into. He's going to be great.
Mike Parsons: I think so. I think he is, he's a relatively new entrance into this thinking differently space. I think, um. I think he brings like a whole collection of great ideas about how business looks and feels in a post-industrial world, in a knowledge economy.
We've got given take, um. You know, there's a quid pro quo idea, and his first book, we've got originals. How nonconformance moved the world. Well, jeez, I think we've had a few of those. None other than Reed Hastings himself. Um, and then we've also got some, uh, you know, he, he co wrote a book option B, facing adversity with, with Sheryl Sandberg, which sounds, um.
Pretty pretty on spec for the moonshots podcast where we see a lot of brave, courageous entrepreneurs, innovators, creators, and designers who have inspired us. Adam's going to lay out some frameworks and methodologies for us. This is going to be very Simon Sinek S but with a different twist. Mark, I'm fired up for Adam Grant.
Mark Pearson-Freeland: I can't wait. It's going to be fun.
Mike Parsons: Super. It's going to be great. Super duper. Well, listen, we've exhausted ourselves going deep into the world of Reed Hastings and Netflix. We've looked at culture. We've looked at critical thinking to be a first principle thinker. I mean, how could you get so much from one chap.
Don't forget, he's got a book coming out later this year too, which will be fascinating. And then we will segue in our next show into the world of Adam Grant. It's been wonderful, Mark, thank you to you. Are you going to get an espresso after this show?
Mark Pearson-Freeland: I think I will. I think I will, and maybe I'll a spark up Netflix tonight and see what Reed's got for me today.
Mike Parsons: There you go. Well, listen, thanks again. Thank you to you. Thank you to all of our listeners. We're almost at a hundred ratings in the different. Podcast app. Um, and we have been popping up in all sorts of top 100 charts, which is just mindblowing, uh, to, to see, um, from all four corners of the world. Uh, looking at the list here, we are popping up in the top hundred lists in Cyprus, Jamaica, Mongolia.
A year ago, I, Kenya, Romania, uh, Hong Kong, Colombia, Israel, Finland, Thailand. It's incredible. Um, and, uh, we've even popped up into the top 100 global business podcasts, if you can believe that. Number 98, as of this morning. So thank you, Mark till you have been most, well, thank you to all of our listeners who have contributed so much to the show and going forward, keep your suggestions coming in.
Ping us at moonshots dot. I, uh, this was the Reed Hastings episode. You say 74 of the main shots outcast that syrup.