SIMON SINEK
5 OF 5
THE INFINITE GAME
EPISODE 57
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The Infinite Game by Simon Sinek
SHOW TRANSCRIPT
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mike parsons 0:10
Hello, and welcome to the moonshots podcast. It's Episode 57. And I'm your co host, Mike Parsons. And as always, I'm joined by the man with the plan. None other than Mr. Chad Owen. Good evening, Brooklyn.
Chad Owen 0:25
Good morning, Sydney. I can't help but feel a little sad. Ah, we've told us well, we've come. Well, we've come to a bit of an ending here. But we're kind of going off on a bit of a high note. So I'm really excited to share the clips from this show. We have the final installment of this series, who knows, maybe Simon will come out with even more books that we can profile on the show. But yeah, we're taking a bit of a different turn here and profiling a book that hasn't yet come out yet. But Simon's gone out and spoken about the ideas in the book. And why he wrote it, the infinite
game. Hmm. So this this, if I do my math correctly here chatting, you know, I've struggled a little bit with the Simon Sinek math. This is the fifth part of our Simon Sinek series. This is his fifth book, soon to be published in the middle of 2019. And it is very cool that as an exploration, we're actually looking at a book and an idea that he is yet to formally publish. And that makes that sort of made me think a little bit differently. I think about the research that we did and the clips we pulled the infinite game Chad when you hear the infinite game, knowing cynic, what were you expecting and what did you find?
Chad Owen 1:47
Hmm, I hear the infinite game and I begin to think long term. So I was very curious how he would tie it back to his core ideas from start with why in leaders eat last because I think why you and I enjoyed those books so much is because the timeless nature of what he uncovers and and the advice that he gives us. Hmm. And I think both due to the nature of us not being able to read the book just yet, and, you know, maybe Simon kind of reaching for some ideas that maybe aren't fully there just yet. It was an interesting look into kind of the process of an author that's out there in the world doing research, you know, compiling all the notes and then trying to formulate it into a nice concise, you know transmittable idea. So it's kind of cool to kind of get into the weeds here. In his process.
mike parsons 2:41
Yes. Yeah. I mean, I feel like what we're gonna do on this show is we're gonna kind of CO create it not only with Simon but with our own listeners as well, which is super cool. And I think to set this up for me this this book is an umbrella book that frames a lot of his previous work. I mean, Huh, you could almost imagine that you could hang each of his previous books, almost as chapters inside of this. And he's added some, some new work as well. It does tie it together quite cohesively this idea of the infinite game, playing on top of, you know, starting with why around leadership, motivation, purpose, the things we do and how we do them, which I really do believe as Simon's greatest strength. He's not been about like the tactics and the strategies of successful business and innovation. He's like, here's how you have to behave here, the beliefs and the values that you need to have to create a thriving prosperous business. And I think he's kind of done a good job at creating an idea that's big enough and high enough to like it like a vessel to carry a lot of his work. And I do like the challenge in today's world of The Infinite Challenge because it feels very contrarian, doesn't it, Chad?
Chad Owen 4:04
Yeah, he's able to zoom out and take a very high level view, which is nice, as you said, it kind of is able to encapsulate mean, many of his previous books and a lot of his previous ideas. Simon's the kind of person that just goes out into the world and gathers his many examples and anecdotes to either confirm or disconfirm the theories that he's working with. And so, in these clips, we have a lot of really interesting examples that he's bringing in, you know, to further this idea of what is a finite game, what's an infinite game? But what happens? Maybe when you mix the two or forget you're in the wrong mindset playing the wrong game, right?
mike parsons 4:41
Yeah, I think our listeners can look forward to not only getting into a book that's yet to be published, how cool is that? But to we've got a whole framework, he's five pillars of the infinite game. We've broken them down. We've got clips for all of them. There's a lot of context here. I think there's some powerful things And I've you know, as I've been preparing the show, I've got some thoughts to add to Simon's book that might also help you, Chad, me and all of our listeners. So there is a tonne coming up here. We've got a lot of tasty clips. And should you at any point want to grab notes or look for the links, you can go to moonshots.io and you can get all of our show notes for this and all the other episodes. Before we launch into sort of the setup clip Chad, I do want to challenge our audience and say guys and girls, we've had a lot of reviews and ratings in the iTunes iTunes podcast or we need some more, I think to celebrate the fact that we've had over 100,000 listens of the show. I would love to get more of those hundred thousands of you out there to go into to your Google or Apple stores, leave a review or rating for us. We love that feedback. It helps other people discover the show. And we'd really love we just dying to know exactly what you're like what we can cover in the next shows to any feedback at all hit moonshots.io or jump into your respective podcast store and share the good word.
Chad Owen 6:26
Yes, we love those reviews. Thank you for everyone that has left a review or emailed us at hello@moonshots.io. Those are always a welcome sight in our inboxes
mike parsons 6:38
absolutely say, Chad, you're driving your fingers already. What are we going to do first? How are we going to launch into the infinite game?
Chad Owen 6:47
Yeah, so as with many of Simon's ideas, they're often not new, but he's taking existing theories ideas, reframing them and finding new examples and so on. This first clip really just sets up the idea of what is an infinite game and some of its origins in Game Theory.
Simon Sinek 7:08
At the end of the Cold War, the United States made a policy decision that may be one of the biggest mistakes of the 20th century. It's contributed to create chaos and uncertainty in this current day. And it's not based on politics. It's based on games. In Game Theory, there are two types of games. There are finite games, and there are infinite games. a finite game is defined as known players fixed rules and agreed upon objective baseball, right. An infinite game is defined as known and unknown players. The rules are changeable and the objective is to perpetuate the game. When you pit a finite player versus a finite player, the system is stable. Baseball is stable. So is conventional war for that matter? When you pit an infinite player versus an infinite player, the system is also stable. The Cold War was stable. And that's because in an infinite game, there are no winners and losers, we cannot lose the game. And so we work to keep the game in play, right? In fact, because there are no winners and losers, the only thing a player can do is drop out when they either run out of the resources or the will to play. Problems arise. However, when you pit a finite player versus an infinite player, it's the finite player who then gets caught in quagmire. This happens in business all the time. The game of business is an infinite game, the concept of business has existed longer than every single company that exists right now. And it will exist long after all the companies that exist right now go away. The funny thing about business is the number of companies that are playing finite, they're playing to win. They're playing to be the best there. To beat the quarter or the year, and they're always frustrated by that company that has an amazing vision, a long term vision that seems to drive them crazy. And over the long term, that player will always win. And the other player will run out of resources or the will, and they'll either go out of business will be bought or sold or merge required or whatever it is. This is also what happened to the United States in Vietnam. United States was fighting to win. The Vietcong were fighting for their lives, they would fight forever if necessary. This is also what happened when the Soviet Union was in Afghanistan. The Soviets were fighting to beat the Mujahideen and the Mujahideen were fighting to survive fighting for their very, very lives.
mike parsons 9:43
Those examples Chad, so illustrative of the his idea that we as individuals, as businesses, or countries at war, are in the end, choosing for either finite or infinite games and I love this idea of why the Russians couldn't, couldn't conquer Afghanistan, Americans pulled out of Vietnam. It is so powerful at describing the difference between the short and the long term, the finite and the infinite. And it really does set up the context of his idea. Very, very well. And it is quite an aha. When you hear him explain those two examples of recent wars, where you're like, I get it, I see what the bigger guy lost, and the smaller guy one, because the smaller guy was playing an infinite game.
Chad Owen 10:41
Yeah, it again, like all of his ideas, they're deceptively simple. But when you try to imagine actually living and embodying those ideas, it's much much more difficult. And obviously, that's why he's written all these books. It's like he's turned this idea into an entire book. And we have many more really great examples. But Simon is apt to use military examples and metaphors analogies. But again, you can go way further in the history and look at most military conflicts and the side that's playing the finite game is almost always the one that loses.
mike parsons 11:22
Yep. what's what's interesting, what are they? What's that famous military saying when the battle lose the war?
Chad Owen 11:28
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think that's probably a much prettier way of explaining the infinite game.
mike parsons 11:35
And I think what Simon's proposing to us is that business for a long time, has sort of been embarrassing itself by getting old, caught up in today, or this quarter, and they've totally lost sight of the long term. I mean, that's what that's what he's pushing off against here, isn't it, Chad?
Chad Owen 11:57
Yeah. And moving from the military analogy. into the business analogies, once he starts kind of riffing on some examples here in this next clip, I'm sure that you and I can probably come up with a dozen, or, or more. But yeah, here's just kind of a litany of examples of companies caught playing the finite game when others were playing infinite ones.
Simon Sinek 12:20
Here's some examples of finite industries that are that are embarrassing, right? So the publishing industry didn't invent Amazon. The movie industry didn't invent Netflix. Right? It's it's the car. The car, the car companies didn't come up with Tesla, like an upstart is is taken on the auto manufacturers. Like they're so preoccupied with the existing business models and protecting what they have. You know, like when blockbuster was a thing, they saw Netflix coming. They saw the subscription model that Netflix is offering which was different to their model. Even though streaming wasn't at the wasn't quality there yet, they knew it was coming in the CEO, then CEO of blockbuster recommended to the board that we really need to change our business model and the board would not allow him to do so. Because the company made 12% of its revenues from late fees. And if you go to subscription, you'll lose all that revenue. And now they're bankrupt. That's called finite thinking, where they're so obsessed with protecting the status quo because they they have benefited from the status quo, that they that they literally will not undergo the existential flex they need to take to stay in business. And so now you have publishing that's has their lunch being eaten by a company that they should have invented. You have the movie industry that's struggling to figure out how to keep up with you know, why isn't it that the the, the the architecture firms and property companies didn't come up with work? They were so busy making their own offices that they thought it was you know, that they and so all of these companies, all these things Stories are being disrupted by people outside their industry. That's an indictment on the way in which they view their businesses.
mike parsons 14:09
That blockbuster one is so good, because the company was so addicted to penalising their customers. They couldn't bear to think of actually making this service better. Ah, that one is killing Chad.
Chad Owen 14:26
Yeah, well, listening probably to the fourth or fifth time to this clip, something that I'm piecing together that Simon actually doesn't explicitly say, at least in the clips that we've pulled from him. I think you could argue that companies that are user focused or to borrow from Jeff Bezos, customer obsessed are the ones that are equipping themselves to play the infinite game, because, as you said in the blockbuster example, they're not concerned with quarterly profits and revenues. Even if it's penalising their customers. Instead, the ones playing the infinite game are really just focused on the user and delivering that value to the user. You know, like you think of Tesla and you think of we work and all the companies that he mentions, that's a connection that I'm I'm drawing, and obviously, it makes you and I really happy because if anyone knows anything else in the way we work, yeah, that's, that's our jam. Yeah, I think for me, that's one way how I'm distinguishing between companies that are playing the infinite game and how we might do that, you know, by being customer obsessed, versus, you know, focusing on revenues or some other kind of distorted metric.
mike parsons 15:41
Yeah, and this very short term thinking and I would say very inward thinking where large organisations get obsessed about themselves and not pay customers is part of a shift from the industrial age into this age of Information Age of knowledge, this digital age If you will, and I think in the cold, hard light of day, Simon's actually challenged us in saying the old way of working is not just a mismatch, I think and what you're gonna hear in a second, he's proposed, he says it's an indictment. It's an indictment, and we've got it all wrong. So let's have a listen now to Simon Sinek. on how we really need to get it right.
Simon Sinek 16:24
I look back and I realised, oh my god, we got so much wrong in the 80s and 90s. Milton Friedman, Milton Friedman was a Nobel Prize winning economist who offered us what is considered the definition of the responsibility of business today, which is he proposed that the responsibility of business is to maximise profit within the bounds of the law. What about ethics? Right? That's the equivalent of me being in a long term relationship, right? And I cheat on my girlfriend. And when she finds out and confronts me with it, I say to her, you can't be upset with me because I broke no laws, which would be true by the way. Yeah, it's Not like marriage where there's a contract. Like there's actually no law governing this relationship. Right? So when companies do very unethical things that make us uncomfortable, we all know it's gross. And then we put them in front of Congress. And they testify all the CEOs say the same thing. We, we acted within the bounds of the law, that is a very low standard, right. But these are the standards and shareholder supremacy and the shorter and shorter term goals we set and mass layoffs, and rank and yank, and all these stupid ideas that came from the 80s and 90s, which were fine for the 80s and 90s, are really doing more damage to American businesses than in the past. And so this book really attempts to challenge the finite thinking that governs most businesses and offer a new, a new, a new perspective.
Chad Owen 17:54
And another Stark example that comes to mind is the tobacco industry in the States, you know, before Congress,
mike parsons 18:01
yeah,
Chad Owen 18:02
yeah, I guess there's this clip makes me optimistic in that, in the end, the companies that are customer centric, that take the long term view that aren't focused on the short term profits will ultimately win out because of the dynamics and the factors of playing a finite game in an in an infinite world. Yeah, I think people have probably ascertained that I'm not too big on like the big social media platforms. And the fact that they've had to go in front of Congress is like a bit exciting to me, because I think they, again, they don't really realise this dynamic that Simon's talking about
mike parsons 18:46
Yeah, and I think what I am inspired by is that you've got the law, which is how you must behave. And then you've got ethics, which is how you should behave. And I love what the infinite game for me represents right here is don't do the bare minimum,
right?
grow a pair and do the right thing. But you know, the funny thing is Chad doing the right thing. It's so virtuous and it's so hard. But it's,
Chad Owen 19:23
yeah, that's an excuse. Oh, it's so hard. We have to actually do hard work and esoteric customers and spend money and try and experiment and fail and all those things that are just so long.
mike parsons 19:39
But you know, this, this for me is what he's really setting up is like, hold yourself to a higher standard yourself, your team, your company, the people around you hold yourself to a higher standard and I have a big feeling that whilst a lot of what we're going to talk about is on the business side, I think the infinite game applies equally to us as individuals as it does to businesses. The Infinite game is a way to think about the classic thing of what is your legacy. And what I think we're going to discover in the following clips is these play out so beautifully on on a playing field of sport, on the playing field of business, or in life itself. And what's so great is this next clip is where we start to shift into how might we do this. And this, this really kind of has a magic little moment around how we set finite versus infinite goals. And this next clip, we've got Simon Sinek really setting that up for us. So let's listen to the man himself talking about finite in finite goals.
Simon Sinek 20:47
I've become very, very interested in the idea of playing in games that have no finish lines. write
some games have finished lines. Right baseball, football, right?
Getting apart is the finish line, you audition. There's a beginning, middle and end is rehearsal and practice. There's a showing up for the audition, and you either win or you lose and then it's over. It's over. Right? That is finite. But one's career is infinite. There's no end. It's like our lives are finite, but life is infinite. People come and people go, but life continues, right? theatre. Actors come in actors go but theatre continues. It's infinite. You don't win theatre. You went apart. But what happens once you get the part, the finite game is over. Now you enter the infinite game you have to be able to convert. Right? And the reason this is important, and I've seen this, unfortunately, so many times from a young age, all you wanted to do was get to Broadway. And then you get to Broadway. And then what you've devoted your entire life to one finite goal. And when you get there, the immediate response is depression. Because I spent 15 years of my life for this one thing, and I got it. And now I don't know what to do next. Like what? Get to Broadway again, doesn't have the same ambition. It doesn't have the same passion. You know that you've devoted your career from, you know, you're from Fargo, North Dakota. And that's all you wanted to do was get out of Fargo and make it to Broadway and you made it. Right doesn't have the same kind of passion. And this is because these are finite goals. There's a lot of studies that have been done with athletes who have finite goals to become the greatest x in the world. Right. So Andre Agassi was one of these, one of these athletes. He wanted to become the greatest tennis player that ever lived. Guess what? Everyone in his life? he would he would view them through how do you help me get to that? thing was how does this help me get to that? Everything was a transaction to how do you help me move to that? And then you know what happens he achieved that he became the greatest tennis player in the world. And you know what happened immediately after depression. Michael Phelps set out to become the most medaled Olympian in history. You know what? He achieved it, you don't have an immediately after depression. They spend their whole life working for one goal, though most will never get it. The few that do don't know what to do next, because their goals were finite. The goals were finite. Right. And so there are finite components to your career. But your career should be infinite.
So yes, of course, you have to win the finite game, you have to get the part but immediately when you get the part
now you convert to infinite
Chad Owen 23:53
Hmm, I think this might be my favourite clip in the whole show. Now that I'm listening to it again.
mike parsons 23:59
Yeah. How powerful was a chair when he talked about these great athletes that we all admire? They they, they pull off the impossible they get to the moment, but because it was such a finite goal after reaching that they go into this the pits of despair now what right and that how pithy was it like you don't win Broadway. And once you've got that Kiro winning it again doesn't quite have it. And this speaks to so much about having greater purpose than just, you know, the ends that you're looking for. You're right is so powerful. What was the thing in that? That spoke to you so much?
Chad Owen 24:40
I think for me, it masterfully layers on top of what he writes and start with why. And so those of you listeners, maybe that have listened to the shows on Simon's books or read some of his books. For me, this was kind of like the missing piece, actually. So if we're struggling to figure out what Good why for us is well, let's just be sure that it's an infinite. Why? So? Yeah, so for me, it's just kind of layering on top of and really completing the work that he did and start with why. And if I reflect upon years and my sharing of our wise years is around coaching, and mine is around learning, like, there's 7 billion people on the planet, like you're never gonna run out of people to coach and there's like, is this infinite petabytes of knowledge and I'm never going to learn or help others learn everything that there is to learn. So I'm actually like, really encouraged that you and I are on to something that's maybe a bit more of an infinite game.
mike parsons 25:47
Client recently talked to me about helping train 4000 people and around themes of innovation and design thinking and chat, I can tell you that a little over You say 7 billion Am I picking myself up off the floor
but
you're right it's very powerful and what's so special is that applies not only to business but your personal life as he so beautifully does in so many of these books is that there is like two tracks and I think at the highest form for myself is that the the, the line between the business that I lead and the person that I am I there's not a great difference. And so the person I am on a you know, on the rugby pitch, or in the office or with you in New York working on a client or who I am like, I think that's when the why really starts to come together in the infinite game starts to come together because you're the you're being your true self, but but the person you are in the office and at home are really not that different because They are playing an infinite game. And I think that's the power of the gift that Simon Sinek. Scott, for all of our listeners here is to think, long term to open yourself up to your legacy, your company's legacy. And don't just do the bare minimum, which has been the trademark of the last few decades of the industrial age where like we did the right thing because we followed the law, right? We followed our policy, right? He's like, challenging us to raise the bar, and to be inspired by our competitors and MPs. But more than anything, be accountable to ourselves.
Chad Owen 27:44
Yeah. And I like how he links the finite parts, but he points to Hey, it's part of a larger infinite game. So while doing that thing can be an important question. Hone in of your career or your life or your business. I think he's helping to remind us that it's not the thing. And he's, again, kind of zooming out helping pull us up above into the clouds for a higher level view to see that. Hmm. Yeah. Like, while it would be great if I get that perfect client or they find the perfect partner, you know, get that my dream job that, like Michael Phelps and Andre Agassi, you may not like yourself after you complete that because you've made that finite game. So yeah, actually, I'm going to go back and listen to that clip. Quite a bit more. I'll keep it on my favourites repeat list of Yeah, to go back for some for some more inspiration. But this this last clip here in this section, Simon's going to outline the five components that he He's kind of makes up how we go about ensuring that we're in the infinite game mindset and that we're playing an infinite game instead of a finite game.
Simon Sinek 29:11
You know, James Carsey articulated this original concept of the finite and infinite. And what I hope to do is is take his basic premise, which is a perspective of the world and offer steps in which we can actually take to lead within this infinite world. So having adjust cause, having trusting teams, having a worthy rival, the ability to make an existential flex, and then ultimately having the courage to lead or other other the essential five steps that that have to be taken in order to lead and if you leave any of those out, you you run the risk of sliding back into the into the final game.
mike parsons 29:45
As as always Chad, he breaks things down in such a digestible way. And what I think we've got laid up for us is offensive. Test stick context of, he's just saying, ladies and gentlemen, would you wake the hell up here? We're doing it all wrong. But what we've got to come now are the five foundational ideas, the key pillars of this book, the infinite game by Simon Sinek. And I cannot wait to tear into these. Chad, we've got the context. Where should we start as we get into the key, the juice, the core of this book, the infinite game?
Chad Owen 30:34
Yeah. So I think the order that he gives these ideas is actually important because he starts with adjust cause in In this next clip, you'll again begin to see how he links this idea of adjust cause in the infinite game, too much of what he wrote in start with why
Simon Sinek 30:56
there are many great just causes out there. Apple was founded on the premise that individuals should be able to stand up to big brother. That's why they're so appealing to creatives and young people, people who like the idea of standing up to big brother, United States wrote in the Declaration of Independence, all men are created equal endowed with these unalienable rights amongst which include life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, it is an ideal just causes are a description of a future state. So ideal that for all practical purposes, we will never actually achieve that vision but we will die trying. That is the point. This is what gives our lives and our work meaning that it's not about simply achieving some sort of metric hitting some sort of goal that has no purpose. But rather than every goal we hit is a marker that we're making progress towards something even bigger. It's about momentum, not about absolutes. Yes, metrics are very important. They help us count, speed and distance and every milestone, we pass makes us feel like we're getting closer and closer which re energises that we can do this, we can do this.
You have to have adjust cause
mike parsons 32:11
for me he's saying be you a person or a business, you need to have the clearest of the purpose of reason for being. And this is going to be a few that helps you every day every week. But more importantly it will help you run the marathon and these these causes are not like to be the best or to make some money. To me, this is something that has come up a lot. It's to have this meaningful positive impact on the people around you on the communities around you on the world. I for me, he's challenging us is your cause just
Chad Owen 32:57
but make I'm a business And my purpose is to deliver quarterly shareholder value.
mike parsons 33:05
Aha, well, then if you want to do that over the long term and take the stress out of the quarter, Mr. CEO, you might want to go find a higher cause because making profit every quarter is not something that gets everybody out of bed forever.
Chad Owen 33:22
Yeah, and of course, I say that in jest, but it's that that is often how many CEOs view their tasks and it's how the boards send them up. It's how they're incentivized. I just read a story recently about how executive compensation factors set by the boards of airline companies. Previously, you know, decade and more ago, things like on time, arrivals and turnarounds, customer satisfaction, you know, the health of their fleets all factored into how executives got covered compensated. And today, guess what? The factors are profitability stock price fell. Yeah. And and, and return on, you know, financial assets. And so I think they and many other businesses could take a lesson or 12. from Simon in the infinite game here.
mike parsons 34:21
And he's not he's not proposing some signal virtuous thing, you should be the goody two shoes. He's actually saying, look, if you want to be people to be happy, productive and successful in your business, then just go out have a just cause because this is some higher purpose that moves them beyond the day to day transactions. But this is not the only thing that cynic proposes as a key ingredient to playing the infinite game and he goes To a place where he's gone before and I think that if you see the the work in the ideas inside of leaders eat last you'll see a lot about the role of a leader but also how team design how people come together is such an important piece of playing the infinite game. And I really liked what he did in the infinite game in sorry, in leaders eat last because I think rather than going for the classic leader archetype of the men, maniacal sort of obsessive ranting man in the ivory tower, I think, I think Simon painted a humbler, a more nuanced just, I think, just a more caring type of leader is is what's called for in our age, and I think the second pillar Chad, I think he pushed into that, that area again and exposes to us how important the idea of a team is to that of success, both short and long term.
Chad Owen 36:14
Yeah, this idea of trusting and vulnerable teams is at the core of leaders eat last, you know, he, he frames it in the sense that Well, I have your back because I know that you would have my exam and he gives us a great example that I'm sure anyone that has had any touch points with this business has had themselves because because I have but it really lays out starkly the difference between a team that is trusting and vulnerable versus ones that aren't.
Simon Sinek 36:48
I went on a business trip to Las Vegas, and they put me up at the Four Seasons out there, beautiful hotel. The reason it's a beautiful hotel is not because of the beds any hotel can buy a fence to bed, it's because of the people who work there. That when you walk through the hallways, and somebody says hello, you get the distinct feeling that they wanted to say hello. Not that they were told to say hello, we can tell the difference. We're highly attuned social animals we can tell the difference in this kind of behaviour. You can always tell when somebody is working on commission. Right? You can tell they happen to have a coffee, a coffee bar in the in the lobby. And so one afternoon I went to buy myself a cup of coffee, and the barista working that day is a kid named Noah. Noah was funny, and charming and engaging. And I stood there for far too long. joking around with Noah, just to buy a cup of coffee. So as is my nature I asked Noah, do you like your job? without skipping a beat? Noah said I love my job. Now to someone in my line of work that's significant, because like is rational. I like the people I work with. I like the challenge. I get paid. Well, I like my job. Love is emotional. It's a it's a higher order thing. Do you love your wife? I like her a lot different.
Notice that I love my job.
So immediately I followed up. Tell me specifically I asked what the Four Seasons is doing that you would say to me You love your job. without skipping a beat, Noah said that throughout the day, managers will walk past me and ask me how I'm doing. Ask me if there's anything that that I need to do my job better not just my manager, any manager. And then he said, I also work at Caesar's Palace. And they're the managers walk past us and catch us if we're doing anything wrong. There, they want to make sure we're doing everything right. They want to make the numbers I like to keep my head below the radar and just get through the day and collect my paycheck. He said only at the Four Seasons do I feel I can be myself.
That's a trusting team. That's what a circle of safety is. When we come to work and we feel we can be ourselves, we feel that we can make mistakes. We feel like our bosses are there to see us succeed.
mike parsons 39:09
Mm hmm.
What comes to your mind when you when you hear him talking to this teamwork aspect? What's really interesting is that a big piece of your career Chad has been as a founder. And as in many times, you build big teams and for a project to shoot a film and then you would pull it right back, just to you as that soul solo entrepreneur, how do you relate to this idea? Because there's many different dimensions to it. You've got the idea of you having to build teams on a project, and then you would go back to being a solo entrepreneur in your former life. How do you relate to this? whole universe that he's proposing around teams and safety and vulnerability. I'm just dying to know what what what comes to your mind?
Chad Owen 40:10
Yeah, I think the simplest way for me to phrase it is don't work with assholes. Like, if you do if you do that, like it's pretty, it's pretty easy like sure the way that Noah describes Caesars Palace is like, they kind of sound like jerks. Yeah, like following them around just to see when he messes up. Versus everyone, not just the people that are kind of directly responsible for the work that he's doing. Everyone is asking him, Hey, how can I help you do your job better? Like you can't help but just feel better in that environment. And so, for me when it comes to my collaborations, I always try to bring together the group of individuals that I know will have compounding effects with one another because we are Have a very generous, altruistic and kind of for the cause mindset as opposed to trying to figure out like how we can get what's owed to us and be more more selfish. And so I think I relate to it and that I try to be as selfless as I can and my collaborations and, and how I work with teams. But again, like all of these, it sounds kind of easy, but it's pretty hard when it comes down to actually executing this.
mike parsons 41:29
Because you know, a lot of the time, what I have experienced is the anxiety of leaders means that they micromanage people and don't give them space. So the only way they can be sure it gets done is if they micromanage the life out of something or someone and then what happens
Chad Owen 41:51
or they just pick it up and do it themselves. So I'm definitely guilty of that.
mike parsons 41:56
Yeah, I have to admit and the thing is, you just have to trust You have to give people space. But as soon as you say to someone, hey, I believe in you go do it. And I'm gonna be right here when you need me. And if you say jump, I'm like how high whatever it takes over time, or what I think actually happens is, I think amongst a team is that people feel like they can raise their hand and say, Hmm, I don't get it. Or, hey, I'm in a bit of a pickle. And they won't be judged. All they'll be greeted with is a sincere desire, from those around them to help. And I think if we can all do this, I think the learning that we have from Simon Sinek if we can all create that safety, that it's okay because no one has all the answers. So at some point, every single one of us will have to raise their hand and say, I need some help here. And if that's greeted with tell me how what is it? Let's get into it. That breeds such a level of confidence because you're not under threat. And I think when a human feels safe, I think physically, they feel more present. And I think emotionally and mentally, they're way better geared to doing great things. Because you know what it's like when you're under threat and you're all a panic, you don't make the best decisions. You don't make the wisest moves, you sort of just go into this frenetic survival mode, and you just try, it's like a it's like a sports team who have been defending for 510 phases. And it's just getting scrappy and messy and at some point, it's gonna break the other team will score just because they just cannot keep up. That's how it feels in a team when you when you're not safe. You're just under fire all the time. And we reach our breaking point. So I think Simon's challenging us to create safety to create sense of service to the people around you. Because one thing I know Chad, is it to see it on the sports field again, when two guys or two girls are playing, and they know they've both got each other's back the sense of confidence and purpose that they can play with, knowing that they have that safety net backup, is he meant
Chad Owen 44:22
if for me it manifests when my favourite collaborators, yourself included, either I'll share a message or those share a message instead of responding like, Oh, no, what went wrong? Or how did how did it go wrong? You just simply reply, how can I help? And it's it's that mindset to be willing to jump in and, and offer help as opposed to as opposed to pointing out, you know, what's gone wrong or what they did wrong? I think it makes all the difference in creating that environment.
mike parsons 44:53
Yes. And if our listeners are thinking okay, how if they see some of this lack of have safety in teams that they're in. Always remember, like, if you want to, you've got to show some initiative here. So like, think to yourself, how would I feel if I was in their position and they were facing and I was facing such a challenge? What would I be dying to hear from my colleagues in terms of support and help? What would that look like? But the other thing for me is, just remember that if you lead by showing service to others, this is such a powerful force that invariably they will not only serve other colleagues of theirs, but they will serve you, too. So when you raise your hand and go, Oh, guys, Houston, I've got a problem. They'll come running right now come running. Yeah.
Chad Owen 45:50
Yeah. And I think there's an interesting way that Simon takes us from this idea of circle of safety. And teams. And then kind of what happens when you pit different teams together or different businesses together. Maybe one's playing a finite game in one's playing the infinite game. And I think I would like to see more and read what Simon has in the book about his ideas on competition, but in a way he kind of like, doesn't believe in the idea of competition when we're all in this infinite game. And so, here's an interesting example. He has pitting Microsoft versus apple.
Simon Sinek 46:36
I had a real life experience that showed me what the difference between the two games was. I spoke at an education summit for Microsoft. I also spoke at an education summit for Apple. At the Microsoft summit, I would say that 70 to 80% of the executives spent about 70 to 80% of their presentation Talking about how to beat apple. At the apple summit 100% of the executives spent 100% of their presentations talking about how to help teachers teach and how to help students learn. One was obsessed with where they were going. The other one was obsessed with beating their competition. Guess which one was in quagmire, guess which one was wait racing through the will and resources to stay in the game. At the end of my talk at Microsoft, they gave me a gift. They gave me the new Zune when it was a thing. This was Microsoft's answer to the iPod. This little piece of technology was absolutely fantastic. The user interface was simple. It was easy to understand. It was elegant. It worked flawlessly. It was a brilliant little piece of technology. I'm sharing a taxi with a senior executive from Apple after the apple talk, and I couldn't help myself I just had to stir the pot. So I turned him and I say you know, Microsoft gave me their new Zune. It is so much better than your iPod Touch.
And he looks at me and he says, I have no doubt
and the conversation was over.
Because an infinite player understands that sometimes you have the better product, and sometimes they have the better product. And there's no such thing as winning or being the best is only ahead and behind. And the only true competitor in an infinite game is yourself. The goal is to make a better product this year than you had last year to ensure that your culture is stronger this year than it was last year that your leaders are growing at a stronger pace this year than they were last year. That everything about your organisation, your systems, everything is improving, improving and improving. It's constant improvement, there is no end to this game. It's a game of constant improvement. That
mike parsons 48:48
there for me is the moment where if you can get into this as a company as a business, or as an individual, that life is a game of constant improvement in perfection will never be reached. But you shall work damn hard to try and achieve it. Nonetheless. To me, this is the most powerful thought within the infinite game. Life is constant improvement.
Chad Owen 49:17
measure it against yourself. Not others. Yes, yeah.
mike parsons 49:22
Yeah. And that's the twist actually. 10 as you've said that, as defined by you made accountable to yourself, like that. And that truly is hard. It's the classic thing of you people work out harder at the gym than at home because when they're in the company, the others, the people around you encourage you seeing other others work out makes you work out more harder. Isn't it interesting? It's such an interesting human behaviour.
Chad Owen 49:51
Yeah, yeah, I would love you know, as we seen kind of the just cause tied to start with why and this trusting team and leader Eat last and very curious to know, if maybe Simon's thinking about, you know, doing whole treatises or books on this idea of competition. And the next two ideas around existential flexibility, which could go by some other names, and courageous leadership. I think that would be an interesting kind of series of five books tying everything together and the infinite game is sort of the glue here.
mike parsons 50:32
Yes, well, this is both the fun and the danger when you operate in writing books at this level, because they can go many different ways and places, but you have to avoid the risk of generalisations or becoming too abstract. And he's such a great storyteller. I am sure that he would, he'll navigate that that so well, but before we continue listening Just remind ourselves of what cynic has set up for us. Basically, he's saying, We are in a world both personally and professionally, where everyone is largely playing finite games. But there are some that play infinite games and they achieve more of their potential as humans and they have engineering successes companies, when they embrace an infinite game, a game where they challenge themselves, to not be just caught up in the latest text message or stock price but they're saying we will fight for a just cause not just the bare legal minimum, but we will fight for something big in the world. And at the heart of the way we design our teams. They shall be vulnerable and safe, and they won't have a fear of failure. They are embrace that learning. And they will take inspiration from the outside but they will hold themselves accountable on the inside. What a journey Thus far chat. Oh, and I mean, I'm pretty primes now. It's not over
Chad Owen 52:03
yet, though. not over yet. We still got two to the five pillars. All right, where are we going in that game?
mike parsons 52:11
Where are we going Chad take a sphere.
Chad Owen 52:13
But he has this interesting Lee phrased idea called existential flexibility. Those in the startup world might call it a pivot. If you had to be maybe a bit simpler, but I love him layering this idea of existentialism onto it. Because it it is a fundamental is the ability to question your fundamental reason for being as a person as a company. And you you have to be malleable and flexible in that, or you're only playing the finite game, and you will not last in the infinite game. And so here's a really great clip that we have, where Simon makes that very clear those that are inflexible versus Those that are flexible and kind of changing their whole thinking around their reason for being.
Simon Sinek 53:06
Infinite businesses are much more adaptable infinite companies can bend and weave much more easily with changes in technology and see the writing on the wall, and the ones that have done it in the past. We think that they can tell the future you know, people Steve Jobs could tell the future. No, he couldn't. Of course, he couldn't tell the future he had an he had a just cause he was leading an infinite organisation. He was an infinite leader. And he was able to see that investing in the graphic user interface was the right way to go. Even though that's not the direction they were going in at the time. And that idea that big flex became the Macintosh. The entire platform of Windows is designed to act like a Macintosh so that was a huge idea. Kodak couldn't make the existential flex Kodak invented the digital camera in 1975 but couldn't bear the thought of changing their company away from film and chemicals and To embrace this digital technology, of course, you know, digital became a thing somewhere else, because once the genies out of the bottle, you kind of put it back. And Kodak made a tonne of money from selling their patents from the royalties they got from their patents on digital technology. And when those patents ran out, about two, three to three years later, they went bankrupt. That's called finite thinking.
Chad Owen 54:21
It's interesting to see how he's kind of backdating is not the right way. But he's like justifying, in a way some of the these failures of businesses is the failure of them to even consider adjusting their business model when it's staring them right in the face. Right. It's like blockbuster saying, Oh, no, we make so much money from from lean. Oh my gosh, yeah, of course. You know, you know how we now know how that story ended.
mike parsons 54:50
Not how that ended? Yeah. It's Kodak invented the digital camera yet. just totally ignoring it. And Hi, it also Chad reminds me of the great book that we have yet to cover, which is called Good to Great by Jim Collins. And he talks about Kimberly Clark's decision to sell the paper mills. Mm hmm. Because the CEO at the time Darren Smith, he was like, I know we make most of our money in the paper mills business. I know that. But we have a clear vision and infinite vision that this is not the business of the future. But right now it's valued very highly. So they were able to sell their paper mills for an enormous price. But the business community in the stock market hated it. They're like, You're crazy. And GE, one of the directors at the company said at the time, that this decision that the CEO took to sell it was against huge Apple was the gutsiest decision they had ever seen in their life from somebody. And at the heart of this is where Sinek touches on some great lessons. So for our listeners, if they're if they're at all interested in you, I have yet to read Good to Great. Put that on the list. But for me, what we're reminded of here is the codecs the Nakia is the blockbusters. But in a modern day business context, there is one see Jeff Bezos leads me to
my ability beat me to it.
He, he will you can take your inspiration there as well. So not only reading Good to Great, but basis is saying and this is where you can help me.
Chad Owen 56:51
You go and read his first letter to shareholders. Yes, dance it right in that first letter to shareholders was at 96 ish. He says like, hey, do not invest in Amazon. If you want dividends and profits from this company I am, I'm gonna grow this thing into a behemoth. And we're going to be customer obsessed and don't expect profits from this company for 20 years. He says it right there in that letter.
mike parsons 57:17
And so how you and I and our listeners can implement this every single day. How we can take this idea from cynic of existential flexibility from Bezos is what I loved about this mantra from Bezos is he says you should be stubborn on your vision, but so flexible on how you get there, because the world changes so the landscape is changing. So take the appropriate path at the moment in the finite game to win the finite the in finite game and be as stubborn as hell about sticking to that just cause.
Chad Owen 57:57
Yeah, I can't help but Imagine if Jeff Bezos had a finite mindset that he simply would have stopped with Amazon as an online bookstore. And if he said, You know, I'm going to disrupt the book industry, I'm going to put every single book that's ever been published on this website. And then he did it. You know, then he has to ask himself well, now what? But because he's playing the infinite game of being customer obsessed, and building this flywheel of innovation that you and I love to, to learn about and talk about in dissect, because that's, that's his why, hmm. He's able to have done so much more. You know, there's probably five or six businesses that would be top 100 businesses in the world if you kind of broke up Amazon and it's all because he's been focused on the infinite game. Hmm, so true. So true. So, so Jeff is is one of these leaders that we see maybe embodying the mindset of an infinite leader. Simon's talked about Steve Jobs. Are there others out there that you would also like to throw into the mix?
mike parsons 59:16
Oh, wow. I tell you what, the Dark Horse of our 57 shows has to be the founder of Patagonia who I think displays as stubbornness towards vision evolution odd. Oh my gosh. I mean, you will not move this guy. He is a rock of the infinite game. I mean, to me, whilst he's relatively unknown, because he's sort of an unwilling CEO, meaning that he never set out to be one. I mean, Chad, I would propose to you Patagonia. Evolutionary He is Mr. existential flexibility He is Mr. courageous leadership because you ain't moving him he's doing it. He has a just cause and he's gonna do it that way. And he's not curtailing to anyone or any
Chad Owen 1:00:17
thing. Oh, yeah. And I really encourage our listeners to go back and find that show. If you if you haven't already listened to it, you'll find that the infinite game that Yvonne and Patagonian in evolves, successors are playing is one of allowing their people at the organisation to live the lives, their best lives that they can while pursuing, ultimate, you know, environmental sustainability and environmental stewardship and you know, for an apparel company, I think that's, that's a really really interesting frame of their of their infinite game. It is it is. So I think this gets us to the last of the five pillars. Just a quick reminder, we've got the just cause the vulnerable team, the worthy adversary. existential flexibility. I mean, there's a lot in that, as our listeners will attest to, that this next pillar is all about leading with the infinite game. So let's get some inspiration from Simon Sinek himself on how we might lead in the infinite game.
Simon Sinek 1:01:35
If a company leads based on the infinite game, what you will find is that there's a sense of cause at the heart of the company, it's, it's, it's not about being the biggest or being the best because we accept those so there's, there's no such thing, right? There's the sense of winning like there's a sense of progress and moving forwards advanced, I call it I would call it adherence to the cause and advancement of the cause. There's a sense of advancing, but there's no sense like we're going to be the best or we are the best because Everything's temporary, right? You're the best for now. Yeah, based on the metrics you chose, based on the timeframes you chose, you know, you could, you know, you can, you can write it any way you want. And so in an infinitely led company, you'll see, you'll find that as a sense of cause. So just that pivot, people are willing to sacrifice for it, meaning they would turn down, for example, a better paying job because they'd rather be here and be a part of this. It feeds my soul, it makes me feel like my life has value. My work has meaning, right? So you'll find just causes at the centre of it, you'll find a vastly greater concentration of trust, that there are trusting teams that people are willing to say I made a mistake, or I need help and expect that people will rush to them to help them solve the problem or give them the support they need as opposed to finding being afraid Yes, that if they say anything that they'll find themselves in a shortlist, you know, at the end of the financial year. And without trusting teams, you know, to Many people are coming to work lying, hiding and faking, we hide our mistakes. We never admit that we don't know what we're doing, we get promoted to a job where we feel a lot of control, but we're not going to ask for help or say I need more training. And so when you lie, hide and fake every day, when we lie and fake every day, eventually things break. So infinitely lead companies have much, much higher proportions of trust that just, you know, inside the company and wouldn't want to work there. They also made the very clever shift away from seeing those in their industry as competitors, and rather see them as rivals. Because a competitor is someone you want to beat, right? And the obsession is too much again on the finite, right, what are the metrics? How are we going to get ahead of them? a rival is someone whose strengths reveals to you your own weaknesses. So to see those in your industry and admire where they are better that you instead of trying to beat them, you look at where your weaknesses are in, improve constant improvement, right? And that's a very sophisticated idea, to not See those in your industry as competitors to be beaten, but rather, as rivals that reveal to us our weaknesses so that we can improve.
Chad Owen 1:04:06
Interesting to see him frame leadership in a way that's essentially just defending the just cause, creating the environment for trusting teams, and having the ability to see competitors, not as competitors. But as rivals. So there's kind of an interesting way that really, he just says to be a courageous leader in this environment is, hey, do do the four things that I've talked about previously. And just be sure that you're fostering that inside of the company. Hmm.
mike parsons 1:04:41
And it's gonna be fascinating to see that when the book is available, what tips and advice and guidance he gives us, to, to make this a truth to make this happen in our day to day I think that Golden Circle was a great example. Have a tool that helped us sort of what you do how you do why you do it, and people don't buy what you do they buy, why you do it. And that all just came together so nicely. So I can't wait Chad, to see how he pulls it together. What we have to sign off on the infinite game with Simon Sinek is a clip in which he sort of shares a little bit how the personal side to the story of the infinite infinite game, and how it kind of is manifest for him. So shall we listen to Simon just reflecting on this idea of the infinite game and how it works for him.
Simon Sinek 1:05:40
Some of them have been a real reinforcement, like, Oh, good, we do this. And some of them have like, we need to do better. And, you know, one of the things that's nice about the work that I do is that, you know, our team like when they get the ideas, they they grab on to them and they look for all the ways in which we can not only embrace them and internalise them, but how we can better share them as well. So it's, you know, we are a company of constant improvement. We don't, we don't have any illusions that we're the best but we're trying to be better every day. And I'm very proud of the fact that we're on a journey of advancing our movement, advancing our cause. And that's, that's, that is about as good as anyone can do. Which is completely fixated on the cause and looking for all the ways in which to improve internally and externally and how you do that. So I you know, we're we're on an infinite journey and it and the concept has given me the the not only the confidence but the guideposts to understand that it's not just crazy idealism, this is actually the way the world works the world what like I said, we're unwitting players in the infinite game. And we don't get to choose like you don't get to choose whether whether whether you obey gravity today are not like you have to work within its bounds. And the infinite game is the same way. It's It's It's It's a force to be reckoned with. It's not, it's not rules of the game, we don't get to change, you can change the rules of the game, you don't get to change the rules of the infinite game. It's like I said, it's more like a force that we have to we have to cope with. And for those who accept the force, you can build aeroplanes. And for those who reject the force, you can flap your arms when you jump off a cliff, and it'll feel amazing for a while and then you'll hit the ground.
mike parsons 1:07:27
Use the force, Luke, Luke. And for me, this is all about this notion of continuous advancement, progress towards your purpose that you are making yourself accountable for when he talks about the force if I make that a little bit more practical, something that we can all use. What did you do today? Day, that is the highest form of expression of your purpose. What did you do? And are you doing it better than you did it yesterday? Forget whether you're in front or behind of your rival? What are you doing to realise that? One thing that's, I think, been helpful for me is
Chad Owen 1:08:21
journaling. Because that allows you to reflect on Hey, am I better than I was last year, last month, last week yesterday. So a practical tool that I've inserted into my routine is is a journal. And I think, now that I have this framework of the infinite game, I'm kind of encouraged to do it even more, because, again, I'm understanding that, you know, we don't choose to be in the infinite game or not. The Infinite game is a law of reality, according to Simon, to be determined how true that That theory is, but I mean, I just love this idea that it's kind of an all consuming all permeating thing. Hmm. Like the force all all living things. It's you're sorry for the Star Wars. Yeah, how whatever, whatever mystical force you want to relate it to the I just I like this idea of the inevitability of it and it's a reality and so therefore we should be mindful and you know, enact these practices and tools, ways of working to to deal with it so and not deal with it just thrive right in the infinite game. So so for me that feeling of that thriving that you mentioned, Chad, comes
mike parsons 1:09:45
in the moments when you can see that the people around you are benefiting from the support and advice you give them in order to reach a greater purpose. purpose or a greater idea. So for me, there is just the same moment when I watch a young rugby player incorporating some things we worked on in training, and throughout the season growing as a man and playing better the advancement, to see them enjoying the bonds that we have as a team. It is in totally parallel to the same feeling I have about you and I and all the people that I work with as we go out there. And we help our clients build these brave audacious products, tell those stories. And we share learnings and we put data more human software in the world. To me, it's when you see those moments and you feel that well being. That is for me, the infinite game, whether it's on the sports field At home, or at work, that's the infinite game. It is the well being you feel that indescribable warmth. When you're like, oh, man, not only was the finite when a delight, but this is just part of an infinite game. And I think that that is the feeling that we all love. And I think what he's giving us in the book is a little bit of a roadmap on how might I have that feeling have that moment more often? Hmm,
Chad Owen 1:11:34
yeah. And in building upon all the previous work, that our listeners would know that you and I love and go back to many, many times, but I think it is because we are in pursuit of that continuous improvement. I mean, I think this podcast is a testament to us trying to do that and one small way, but more importantly, share it with you all are our listeners. So I'll take This time to once again, thank you all for listening to this show and coming on this learning journey along with Mike and myself. And that's, that's the fifth book. from Simon it's we've gone through his entire over, there are no more books for us. to mine we even the found clips from a book that's not even released yet to bring you some more learnings and insights from Simon but I have a feeling that this this book tour is not going to be ending just yet, is it? No, I don't think so. Ted. So I think that we we kind of thought ourselves who would be a nice,
mike parsons 1:12:47
complimentary author to investigate and we I think we've picked somebody that may in fact show all the signs of being If you will the next Simon Sinek. Would you not agree?
Chad Owen 1:13:05
As far as the ideas? Yes, and I think I like this new author's ideas a bit more than Simon's in some ways. It's hard to best Simon as a public speaker, I think there's so much that all of us can learn from him in that regard. But I don't want to I don't want to slight Arden our next author too much because he does give some great interviews and has given you an eye a lot of really fantastic media to bring you some clips from three of his books that I feel like are really relevant to not only the work that you and I are doing, but I know that many of you our listeners are doing as well.
mike parsons 1:13:46
So the goal is is yes, yes. Who is it? They're probably thinking Guys, please just tell us. The author is Cal Newport and he has written some fantastic books. Digital minimalism deep work so good, they can't ignore you and a number of other books about how to learn. He, he is a brilliantly new voice in the world of business and the sort of self improving, always learning cohort. I think he's a real treat. I deeply, deeply enjoy his work. And we've got somebody who goes, I think we can safely say, into different territories, different places than Simon. So it's the perfect change up if you will, something different.
Chad Owen 1:14:41
Yeah, he's a bit more of an academic. He's a computer scientist. He's a teacher, you know, so it's not too far afield from our kind of tech in innovation world, but I think he offers some really fantastic practical advice for all of us. That are some of those things that we can do. Each and every day to help us kind of grasp on to these big ideas that that people like Peter Drucker and Clayton Christensen and Simon Sinek are giving us from from previous. Absolutely.
mike parsons 1:15:12
Well, you've got a lot to look forward to Chad because Wade is going to go on this whirlwind with Cal Newport, we're going to be exploring new ideas. And as always, it's been such a damn satisfying process, getting into these books together and sharing them with our audience. Simon Sinek was wonderful. I feel even closer to his work now that we've done this show. And I can't wait to jump into the world of Cal Newport, Chad, enjoy your evening in New York. I hope that you're enjoying what is this New York summer like is this because it was getting real hot there a couple of weeks ago.
Chad Owen 1:15:55
It's a bit tropical. It was like a beautiful sunny day this morning. And then not All of a sudden I'm out at lunchtime and the sky is falling and people are running around without umbrellas. It's not the first time it's happened in the past few weeks, but I'll take I'll take a rainy weather here in New York over dry weather. I'm tending a garden on the weekends. So the the weather's nice welcome. Well, but I can't complain. Well, who
mike parsons 1:16:21
would have thought she could get a green thumb in the heart of Brooklyn, in New York. Go enjoy the wonders of summer. Chad, thank you, to you. Thank you to our audience. I'm about to embark on my day here in Sydney, Australia. And I want to thank everybody for being part of this wonderful show in this series. I think we've got to the end of Simon Sinek and we've got so much more to look forward to. So that's it for today. And that's a wrap of the moonshots podcast.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai