SIMON SINEK

3 OF 5

TOGETHER IS BETTER

EPISODE 55

SHOW TRANSCRIPT

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mike parsons 0:10

Hello, and welcome to the moonshots podcast. It's Episode 55. I'm your co host, Mike Parsons. And as always, I'm joined by the man in Brooklyn, Mr. Chad Owen. Good evening, Brooklyn. Good morning, Sydney. So tell me this, Mike. We're in the middle of our author spotlight here with Simon Sinek. And somehow we managed to shoehorn a children's quote unquote children's illustrated book in here. So Tom, tell me a bit more about how that snuck onto the show here.

Well, I think this is why we are such Simon Sinek fans and we know all of you our listeners are a bit partial to Mr. cynic, too. So, he he wrote out his first two books, very sort of heady, thoughtful intent for business books about how you should lead how you should ask questions about why and seeking your motivation. And then what was so wonderful is he did a massive detour and said, You know what, my next book, I'm going to make it a picture book. I'm gonna make it a gift book. I'm not gonna even have a Kindle version. He did a tonne of really cool things around it. So come on Chad,

Chad Owen 1:28

hit him with the third book. So here on the fourth show, spotlighting Simon in the third show here in the author spotlight. We're picking up his book together is better. And you know, there's also like a song and a music video that go along with the book too.

mike parsons 1:45

Yeah, which is brilliant, but he even he even like to think about it. It was pretty cool making a song for your picture book, which is for corporate executives, but he even created a special sent with these perfume experts. I mean, what do you think cynic was smoking when he got to the third one was you like, Hey guys, let's let's do something different.

Chad Owen 2:11

Yeah. Well, and that, and the scent is the scent of optimism, like what?

mike parsons 2:19

But you gotta love it. I mean, if there was one word to frame, Simon Simon Sinek he brings enormous amounts of positivity and optimism. And that's particularly how he delivers his his message. And, I mean, he has he's, I think turned the lights on for a lot of people. And I think you and I, throughout the course of the show and working together for years and years now. I mean, he's frameworks and he's thinking has infused its way into so many ways in which we do our functional jobs, you know, creating products and stories for big brands. But the crazy thing Chad is I think he's books all inspire how we choose to work together, you and I, on this show at work with our friends, colleagues and partners. And I think this book together is better may in fact, be the signature book about out of all the work he's done. that informs how you and I love working together. Hmm.

Chad Owen 3:25

I think, yeah, we have some really, as always, we have way too many clips to get through and just one show. So we've winnowed it down to some clips to talking about kind of how Simon got started and how some of his earlier experiences led to not only his breakout book start with why but leaders eat last and of course, together is better. And then you were able to find Actually, I want to give a shout out to an unsung collaborator, two unsung collaborators here on the moonshots podcast in the spirit of together is better. Just wanted to say thank you to our producer, Sophia. And our editor Mike, we could not do this podcast without the two of you. But you and Sophie were able to find some really excellent clips around the different themes that are in the book together is better as well.

mike parsons 4:12

Yeah, I think what we've got ahead first on the show is a tonne of really spot on clips talking about, if you will, teamwork and collaboration. But I think there's perhaps a more fundamental lesson inside of this that we have to discover today about how you can sort of get out of your own way in order to work with others to do great things. And there's so much packed into this but I loved I love that you mentioned this, this song because I think we should tease it out for the audience. We're going to play a little bit of song in a moment. But don't forget everything that you hear on the show. today. You can follow up@moonshots.ai and you can find out More information, get links from the show notes, all that good stuff. So we got a tonne of information there. But I feel like Chad, we've got an action packed show ahead. Where shall we start?

Chad Owen 5:12

Here's a quick intro from someone that was interviewing Simon at the release of the book. And he gives a really great introduction and into together is better joined by Simon Sinek. He's an author. He's a speaker. He's an optimist, I'm sure you know, he's got the third most-watched TED talk in the universe. And now he's got a new book together is better. And we're going to talk all about it. So,

Unknown Speaker 5:37

welcome. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Thanks for

Unknown Speaker 5:40

coming. So this is not your first

Simon Sinek 5:43

book. It's number three. Number three. You know, the first two books were sort of thinking thinking books where I tried to break down and explain leadership and tribalism and all of this stuff, cooperation and trust, based on biology and anthropology. And in all my work I I realised that there was a theme that runs through, which is we're social animals, and we need each other. And so I decided to do something that was a complete departure for me, which is to do this little simple illustrated book, right? The funny thing is everybody thinks it's for kids, right? It's an adult book. Right, right. But I designed it to look like a kid's book. It is really yeah.

Unknown Speaker 6:17

I don't know if we'll be able to see it so much here. But it is a it's a continuing story. Well,

Simon Sinek 6:23

it's a metaphor. So basically, what I did was I wanted to share this message that there you go, there's some of the quotes.

It was more important for me to share the message in a completely new way that people would get it but you didn't have to. You know, I know that not everybody gets through all the books. Right. But so I figured if I wrote something short enough, they'd finish it. Right. Right. Right. And it's basically the book is a metaphor. The story is a metaphor. You know, many of us too many of us are dissatisfied with where we work. We don't really feel like our bosses or our leaders care about us our growth. With our careers, sometimes we have dreams that we don't pursue. Or sometimes the way we just describe our jobs as it's, you know, it's fine, same old, same old. That's how most people describe their job, right? And so, I came up with these three little kids who are their archetypes at various points in our lives, we have been each of them, who also dream of leaving the playground for a better playground. And the question is, how do you do that? And just like, we want to try something new or different, or make a change in our lives, you're gonna have to do it with others, you're gonna have to ask for help. Right? And so these kids go on a journey looking for a better playground. And they learn the hard way that they won't get there unless they help each other unless they do it together. Yeah, together really is better.

mike parsons 7:42

Yeah, nice. I just love the carriage Chad that he had just to do something that I mean, can you honestly imagine, like the guys that publish all the Harvard Business Review books, or you know those classic business book publishers Sitting there go, hey, yeah, let's just do a picture book. But somehow cynic managed to do it. I think that's really neat.

Chad Owen 8:08

Yeah, I mean, while Clayton Christensen or Peter Drucker may have really meaty, important ideas to share, there's not an easily accessible book that we can pick up that that distils it down, you know, in an easily digestible format. So I think yeah, I think it's a brilliant move on on Simon's part and it really comes out of the way he writes his previous books. I mean, he's, he's very heavy in the use of analogies and metaphor and story. So abstracting it to the level of, you know, these three kids that are kind of three parts of each of our personalities in the way we approach work. I it's just a natural extension of the way he writes.

mike parsons 8:45

Actually, that's a that's a really good point. Yeah, he he's a fantastic storyteller because he he avoids all the jargon in the traditional forms of any sort of business and work or life advice. Now he's his IT guy. An exceptional storytelling skill, but something else that sounds good is this song Chad so why don't you just give us a morsel from the song which is now what's the guy's name? He He's a really interesting name. I believe it is. Aloe blacc is the odd black. Yeah, yeah. So why don't you play just a little touch from together is better.

Unknown Speaker 9:34

My hands don't slip on the rocks. They say the mountain is so hard to try and speed to go. Ghana is better than don't sleep on the rocks. They say the mountain is so

Unknown Speaker 9:59

early Steel to go.

Unknown Speaker 10:09

Hand in hand we will.

Unknown Speaker 10:15

We shall.

Unknown Speaker 10:22

Hand in hand we will get to the top. And

Unknown Speaker 10:31

we shall.

Chad Owen 10:39

There's together as better by aloe blacc is interesting to hear Simon talk about in some other clips about how he really wanted to have a song created but then he went out and searched and there was already a song called together as better Chad rated but it gets better he rang up Allah and said come to my book launch and he's like, okay, what's the book and he says together is better. And he goes no way. I have a song called together. Yeah, exactly in the themes. Yeah. It's it's exactly what you'd expect if it were custom arranged. And written for it for the book. He, even though it already existed,

mike parsons 11:14

yeah, yeah. But I think you know, we have got a bunch of clips that that support the main ideas in the book. And I think all our listeners are just gonna love getting into that. It's, it's another new space of how to behave, how to think from Simon Sinek. But in preparing this show, Chad, what the treat we've really got for our listeners, is that we've also got one or two clips that really give us some deep insight into Simon Sinek himself. And he is obviously on a bit of a tear at the moment, and he's quickly becoming a guru of our time. And we're going to start with this first clip where he explains a little bit of his childhood, and how it relates specifically to this book. But I think what our listeners can get from this as well, is a sense of where he's coming from. And some of the behaviours that help him see the world in this very unique way that he does. So let's have a listen to Simon Sinek talking about childhood.

Unknown Speaker 12:23

How do you think

Unknown Speaker 12:23

that childhood has sort of affected your your outlook on leadership and optimism?

Simon Sinek 12:29

Yeah, I grew up in in four continents before the age of 10. So we were lifted up as a family constantly. And I think there's two huge things that I learned as a kid that are in me today. One is my immediate family. You know, my sister in particular, we, you know, we were the closest things we had because we kept moving and changing our friends. And so that family unit really was important. We're very, very close family. So that's I learned that the importance of people and keeping people close and the other thing was we went to school. wildly different places, you know, from Africa to Europe to Asia, that I learned that it's what it's like to be uncomfortable, you know, right. I mean, I'm the minority. Yeah. And, and I, it's a, it's an amazing thing I can to this day be dropped into somewhere unfamiliar, and I'll be okay. And I and I have I think it's helped me as an anthropologist as well, because I have a respect and a deference for for those on their journey. Right. And especially for those who who don't feel like they belong. I you know, that's,

that's so it's definitely definitely impacted me.

Chad Owen 13:37

And it's interesting, how his experiences living abroad, I almost hear it as kind of building a resiliency or an adaptability in him. And then you combine that with kind of the security and safety he had in his family is really I think, yeah, obviously core to to who he is and, and how he he thinks about and views the world.

mike parsons 14:00

I think it to build on that chat. I think it actually being an expat chat. You can hear it by default makes you way more open to differences and different people different places. And I think that's a big part of what I see in him is that he's genuinely open and ready to discover the world as it is and he's trying to do that from a quite an empathetic point of view. And I think you learn that as an expat who's also lived in four countries. I was gonna

Chad Owen 14:37

say we've got a former amster dahmer and London

mike parsons 14:41

San Franciscan and Sydney I so here's the thing Chad like if you do expose yourself as an expat, I think the thing I would share with our listeners is without a doubt, you're right. It is one of the toughest thing you can ever do. So you build a resilience like crazy because I You basically rock up somewhere, and you have to learn everything all over again. But the second thing is that you learn to bring those around you. And as you know, as you know, my family were pretty tight. My wife and my son and I, and it's because all four of us have lived in four different countries together. So, you know, I can see how close we are relative to other families, because they may have lived in their city their whole lives, which is totally fine. But you just build this togetherness, because you're moving around. So the one constant is the family. And that's a big thing. But I think all of these experiences in Simon have have really helped him ask bigger questions, see the world more complete. And I think that's where some of his great work comes from. Do you think Jed?

Chad Owen 15:55

Yeah, yeah, it's interesting because I can see the correlation between Kind of the family as a team, and how if you have that good team that you can move together, it's almost like you know, in the workplace like that team can go and conquer any project that they set their minds to, as long as that team unit is kind of intact. Yeah. So I think he's thinking, you know, very much informed by his childhood. And we've asked for forward, you know, a few years into his professional career. He has some interesting thoughts about, you know, it wasn't like he kind of came upon this, this brilliant idea that was just, you know, taken up by everyone, he actually, you know, he had to put his boots on the ground and get out there and just start to share that bit of insight that he had. And eventually, you know, like every grain of sand kind of turning into the giant snowball avalanche, he was eventually able to make it happen. But here's Simon sharing his story of how it all started just simply by sharing the why.

Unknown Speaker 16:54

What was the tipping point in your life or career when you realise you've discovered something truly extraordinary that needs to be shared? In your world, and and then not only that, that you can make a living doing it.

Simon Sinek 17:05

My journey started a bunch of years ago. Thank you for the question, Jesse. I lost my passion for what I was doing. And it was that crisis. That was really unnerving for me. Sort of a happy go lucky guy, and I wasn't feeling so happy go lucky anymore. And it wasn't until a friend came to me concerned that I was acting differently. Because I spent all of my days lying, hiding and faking, I was pretending that I was happier, more successful and more in control than I actually felt. And having somebody who believes in me and cared about me gave me the courage to find a solution. That solution was this thing called the Y that I discovered when I realised that knew what I did. I knew how I did it, but I didn't know why. And it had such a profound impact in my life. It restored my passion that I did what anyone would do when you discover something beautiful. I shared it with the people I loved. You see a great movie, you tell your friends to see it. So I told my My friends, my friends started making crazy changes in their lives. And then they would invite me to their homes to share with their friends. So it all began very organically. I literally stood in someone's apartment in New York City, talking about this thing called the why well, and people would ask me to help them find their why. And I would do it on the side for about 100 bucks. And so that's how it began. Wow, wasn't my and just people kept asking me and I kept saying yes. And, and I took a risk once when a company asked me, and I said, Yes, it was the first one and they asked me to price and I'm thinking well, $100, you know, and I don't know, I just in this meeting, I said, it's $5,000 and I'll work with you and they said, okay, and that's when I realised I could make a living, helping people and helping organisations find their way. That's fantastic. So that was really just a stroke of idiocy and luck. Oh

mike parsons 18:54

wow. What an insight into how the whole movement of why started. And in a living room in New York, I know. But it's also you know, I love. What I really love about his story, which is very similar to Erich Reese's is it starts with adversity. In our earlier shows, we've talked about how he was basically running an advertising agency, and wasn't really happy. And then that sent him on a path of asking why. And the other thing that that strikes me about the characteristic here of when you've got something, and I think this is really helpful for all of our listeners, to know, I mean, we're often working on something where we're like, it's a product, it's, it's the launch of a product, it's a big project and Apple, whatever it is, and we're working on it, and you're always like, I hope the user, the customer, the audience, I hope they're gonna like this. And it's really challenging. When you're making something and you're like, you really just don't know if they're gonna like it. And what he pointed out there is, you know, when you've got something, when people pick up on it, adopt it and start spreading and it gets those little organic bring their

Chad Owen 20:21

friends along as well. Yeah, that advocacy.

mike parsons 20:24

Mm hmm. It is such a great indicator and I have to tell our listeners, it is such a specific thing to look for. If people try out your product or your service and or hear your story and start re sharing or telling it then this share ability. This advocacy is such a leading indicator that you've really got something and if you're banging on the door for years and years and nobody's talking about it, you will ask yourself, hmm, do I need to change Something here, because

Chad Owen 21:01

he wouldn't even get to the point of doing it for years and years because he you bang on the doors and no one answers, then you have to go back and be like, am I actually building something that someone wants?

mike parsons 21:11

Which is a very good question indeed. And what's interesting is we often think the guy banging on the door, or the girl banging on the on the door, these these big, powerful, charismatic, sometimes a little, sort of the dictator archetype. But what's so beautiful in this last clip to kind of ran out some insights on Simon Sinek himself, is we've got this fantastic little insight, but it's not always the biggest in the loudest that are the leaders. So let's have a listen to Simon Sinek talking about introverts.

Unknown Speaker 21:46

Can an introvert become a good leader?

Simon Sinek 21:49

Oh, absolutely. I'm an introvert. And people think that because I stand on the stage, I'm an extrovert, but I actually tried to sort of avoid sort of big gatherings and things and I'm an introvert, but actually salutely I get asked this all the time, sort of what are the characteristics required to be, you know, vision, you know, charisma. I know some fantastic leaders who don't have big Steve Jobs in visions. You know, I know some fantastic leaders who don't have like tonnes of energy and bouncing around and charisma, they're sort of quiet and sort of keep themselves. However, what all great leaders have, in my opinion, is courage. They had the courage to do the right thing. They have the courage to speak truth to power, they have the courage to do something that's unpopular or put up with the extreme amounts of pressure from external sources that are pushing them to do something more expedient more short term to do something that's better for the long term and for the people. Courage is it. So absolutely, introverts actually make fantastic fantastic leaders. A lot of great leaders are introverts.

Chad Owen 22:51

I love this affirmation for me, and this idea of courage. I think he probably came to it from a lot of the stories In the military that he uncovered when he was researching his book leaders eat last. But I would, I would kind of add an addendum to kind of the shared characteristic between all leaders now, I'm curious if if you share my, my, my thought or if you have another one, but so in addition to courage, I would actually add, like a dash of vulnerability, because I think they're quite interlinked there. And he touches on it, you know, with like the leader, being able to kind of like, maybe admit when they're wrong and really open themselves up to the team and understand, hey, here's some of my shortcomings, but I want to try and help you in like in spite of them.

mike parsons 23:40

Yeah, I think it's perhaps if I look at my own attempts at self improvement, is that introverts are those that are a little bit shy or just they're they're often not the first one to speak. And they start by listening which crazily enough for someone who said Total chatterbox like me is like I'm desperate. I desperately make myself aware of this all the time. So not banging on and, you know, sucking all the air. So I love this and I love how it challenges. You know that that classical bias that we have to thinking he who is loudest or she who yells the loudest is the leader.

Chad Owen 24:26

Yeah, cuz I think being courageous, you kind of have to open yourself up a bit like and take that risk. And, you know, we talked this to death and leaders eat last but it's like, if you're the one that's going out there and taking the risks that tells everyone else inside your team, organisation, family, whatever, that it's okay for them to do it too, because they know that you have their back. Yeah. So this idea of courage, I think is so fantastic. And it's not something that I don't know that I have heard, again, outside of kind of like a military context, but I think it's a very apt apt way to talk about what you know. What the shared commonality between all leaders is?

mike parsons 25:03

That's right. That's right. And that's, that's a really good sort of no button to kind of put on the end of our insights into Simon Sinek himself. And we're gonna jump now into like a really fun part of the show where we're really going to get to have a sort of a journey into this whole idea of teamwork and doing things together. Now, the one thing, before we do that, I just want to kind of remind everyone, where we're at in this journey of the Simon Sinek series we've, we've obviously talked about start with why. And we've talked about leaders eat last and both of those fabulous books, covering mentorship and motivation and leadership. Still ahead in our series, we have the Find your y which is sort of the practical guide book to start with why And we're also really excited to cover the infinite game, which book which is coming out really, really soon. But I think the special thing is how different this this book is. That together is better. And Chad, I want to ask you a question. So for our listeners, if they're like, Oh, this book sounds pretty interesting. Who would you get them to think about as the perfect person to give this book to, if they were to kind of go through their little Rolodex and contact list? Who might be someone that that one of our listeners could, that they could give this book to?

Chad Owen 26:43

Yeah. So it might, this might not be the easiest thing to give, say, your boss, because then you know, there's that subtle implication that they're not like a very good leader. There's kind of some room for improvement. So I don't want to assume that everyone has, you know, nice open, candid relationship with with those that, that manage them. But I think it's a perfect gift for any team member. And I use the word team member really, you know, very broadly. So, I'm sure Mike, you could give this to another one of the coaches have part of your rugby organisation. Yeah. As you know, a valuable and interesting gift because, you know, I've, as we've, as we've understood on this journey, like, there's probably not a place where teamwork and collaboration happens or assignment stuff is not applicable. But yeah, you know, I would say you know, someone that you've done a project with, that you really appreciated, and, and yet wanted to pay it forward, give them a bit of a gift as a thank you via one of your fellow rugby coaches, because like one of the first ideas that I had, I love it. And I can think of some collaborators that I've worked with recently, you know, not inside of my own company that I think could be encouraged in learning quite a few things from the book. Yeah,

mike parsons 27:59

yeah. No, that's, that's, that's awesome. Yeah. So I think the way I would encourage our listeners to think about this is it's really fun to have we bought one for the office recently. But it's also a wonderful gift book, particularly, if you want to give someone maybe work related. If you want to give them a gift that's just a little bit different. And it's not like a Jim Collins book. It's not like a traditional cynic. It's not

Chad Owen 28:27

a trudge to read through. You got to spend eight hours right, I can just flip through this on your lunch break and, and really enjoy it. Yeah.

mike parsons 28:33

So it's just a remarkable piece of work. It was very brave on his part, and it's a really, I really recommend it either for yourself or even as a gift together is better by Simon Sinek. That's a must do and well we'll have links in the show notes@moonshots.io for everyone, but now Chad. Now we are going to delve into this book. We're going to get into So some of the four big things that he gets into, he talks about service to others, he talks about passion, talks about thinking positively. And he's got a really nice take on that. But I think where we want to start Chad is with that big, hairy word called trust, and working with others in the real world. Like, we're not talking like a little bit of slack chat here. We know. And I think, you know, for him trust really is engendered in those real life examples of collaboration. You know, we cut out kind of a whole section of I called it like, Oh, those millennials, because he's got some great things to say about us millennials, and kind of how we're disconnected through our devices and we've become addicted whatnot, but we're gonna save that for the next show. Yeah, here's, here's a clip with Simon just talking about what it what it means to kind of stay in touch with real life.

Unknown Speaker 29:56

How important is it that a leader is intact with Real life and with real people.

Simon Sinek 30:03

So it's essential, right? I think that's one of the challenges and problems of leadership today, which is, you know, there used to be a time when if somebody wanted to know what the people inside their company felt, they would walk around the company and ask them, you know, we would interact with each other, we'd roam the halls. Now we largely sit at desks and, and manage our businesses through email and instant messenger. And, you know, we're sort of very disconnected. And so I think the best leaders, despite the advantages of technology, understand that comes at a cost and worked very, very hard to work around it. So they do still roam the hallways, they still do still do use the telephone. They rely on interpersonal and human contact. Okay, I visited a company recently, as a startup in Los Angeles. I think they have five employees. They're really small, and they have an open space, you know, and they sit across the room from each other and they were instructed And during each other, instead of talking blew me away. I mean, at least you have an excuse if you have thousands of people. But when you have five people in a room, like, that's, that was fascinating to me. So yeah, talking and interpersonal and this, like you and I could do this over instant message and you and I could do this even over a video conference, but this is so much better I'm gonna be doing today Yeah. Now I

Unknown Speaker 31:23

see all these live interviews all the time as well through Skype or Google Hangout never feels the same as having two people talk.

mike parsons 31:29

There's no chemistry. So what strikes me about that Chad is how much that relates to our world. You're in New York. I'm in Sydney. We work with teams in Europe as well. Yeah. And we are heavily on digital communication. But we are so big on in person. time together. I mean, no email, I would say it's almost a 10 x improvement on You know, quality time together productivity, everything. It's just like through the roof when we're together versus not. It's not to say that we don't get our work done when we're spread out across the globe. But yeah, it always just feels like we move so much tighter, faster, more highly aligned and quicker together. Yeah. And I think that the warning here for us and our listeners is to remember that it is so easy to text and email. But equally It is so hard to miss. Understand and miscommunicating email. Yeah, and that's the biggest lesson for me is no matter how much time I take with an email, certainly how I tend to communicate, I can do such a better job. In person I it's the intonation, it's the body language. It's it's the it's the whole way of seeing also the other Person responding and building off what they're saying. It's like high fidelity. It's like HD communication and everything else is like pitching. Yeah.

Chad Owen 33:09

It's funny that we need a reminder, but it's true. You know, many of us in our work environments, try to find technology solutions to problems that don't, don't need a technology solution. You could just turn your head and say, you know, in the case of the startup guys in LA, like, Hey, where do you want to go to lunch? And they could probably figure that out in about I don't know 1520 seconds as opposed to three dozen Im chats and

mike parsons 33:37

yeah, and and it is so true that that that because technology is so easy, that we become a little bit out and I do think it's fair to say we in communication, it becomes a little lazy. Oh, yeah.

Chad Owen 33:52

Yeah, it's much easier to kind of hide behind. Maybe not hide but just, you can kind of like skirt around. I call it the frog. Like, you just don't think, yeah. Like, you just need to eat the frog. And then everything else you do during that day will be like so much easier. I think it comes from Mark Twain or something. But it's like the, you know, the big hairy, or the big, hairy, audacious goal or whatever, like, you kind of skirt around the hard thing, I think when you when you use technology to communicate about things, but if you're together, you're like, hey, the elephant in the room is this and like, we got to address it. Yeah, that's, that's really sorry for all those mixed metaphors.

mike parsons 34:34

But you're absolutely right. And it once you build, like, I feel that every time we're together, you know, we create understanding and reconditioning cheese chair we've been working together for ages for years and years years. We've done so many different projects and all four corners of the planet. But it's still like I think I've already been in New York a couple of times, this year and that time, together. Other is, is is is precious and uh, yeah, I think a lot of people forget it. You know Sinek talks about walking, just walking the hole. I, I totally, I couldn't agree more with him, like, just walk around and connect with people feel the vibe, see what's going on it is an incredibly important thing to do if you want to understand people and build trust with them. But I think synnex got another good idea for us, Chad, don't you this this idea of how we might work together?

Chad Owen 35:30

Yeah, I will just go straight to the clip here. Where he talks about what it takes for for teams to become great working together.

Unknown Speaker 35:40

Now so one of the quotes of Buddha was again from together is better if you're tuning in right now. Bad teams work in the same place good teams work together. says so much.

Simon Sinek 35:49

You know, the word team is so bandied about so easily, like, this is my team. It's like no, you just happen to work in the same office. You know, you're assigned to the same product. But do you love each other? Do you trust each other? Do you care about each other, would you sacrifice for each other? Are you do take real joy and seeing your friends, your colleagues, your teammates have success? Or are you bitter and angry that they got promoted before? You? You know, does it? Do you mind that you sometimes don't get the credit? You know, that's a real team. There's real love there. The rest of us, I think are just colleagues.

mike parsons 36:23

Yeah, ouch. Isn't that good? Chad? Like, I just loved the way he pinned it. So

Chad Owen 36:29

yeah, I don't, I don't know that I've ever thought about it in that explicit way. But certainly, we have all felt that of, like, you know, I see on the org chart, we're kind of all together and we're kind of in the same Slack channel, whatever, because we're all on the marketing team. But yeah, it's like, you know, what, I take a virtual bullet for one of my Tim team members or not, do I trust them to do the same for me? Can I stick my head out and take a bit of a risk because I know that they'll support me. These are many of the unsaid things that all of a sudden When we're on a team, but maybe we don't say them. So yeah, so Simon saying like, hey, leaders need to, like call all these things out and be sure that when we call ourselves a teamwork, an actual team, and not the C word, colleagues, yes,

mike parsons 37:14

yeah, it's and, you know, I think there is a real thing that if we can tap into it, we'll understand how to create these good teams, how to be teammates, not, you know, co renters of a space. And here's the idea. The idea is that we've all got this Selfish Gene inside us because we're humans that are programmed to survive. And the way that this tends to come out in the workplace, a lot is in this idea about egos. And Simon has this amazing thinking. We've gotten this next clip, where he talks about ego and what I want us all to do now is just think about that in the context of the earlier clip. Like, if we truly want to be a great team together and get some really awesome work done, then we've got to tune in and be self aware around this idea of ego. So let's have a listen to Simon Sinek. Please explain social animals

Unknown Speaker 38:19

with so much ego going on. So I'm sure you look at leadership and ego and people struggling with ego, how do we kind of get get beyond the head on personal relationships?

Simon Sinek 38:28

So there's a paradox being a human being. Unfortunately, at all times, every moment of every day, we are both individuals and members of groups, right? We are both responsible for ourselves and our happiness and our own joy. But at the same time, we're members of families, we're members of churches, where members of teams were members of companies, like we're members of multiple groups every single day, every moment, and this produces some complications. We have to make decisions. So do we put ourselves first or do we put the group first and there's a debate Some people say, Oh, you have to take care of yourself. Before you can take care of the group, and some say, No, no, no, you take care of the group. And that's what helps they will take care of you. And the answer is yes, it's not one or the other. It's actually both simultaneously. It is a challenge. But at the end of the day, there's no getting around it. As social animals, our success, our happiness, our joy, our ability to get anything done, requires help. And those who embrace the fact that they cannot do everything alone, that they need the support and love and it doesn't mean somebody who's physically helping you live something. Sometimes it might be someone who just believes in you, these things are essential, and there's just no getting around it.

Chad Owen 39:37

It's almost like the circle of teamwork, you know, instead of the circle of life in that if you agree with his base assertion that everything you want to do requires help, whether it's physical help, emotional support, help, but not in order to get that you have to give it and so then that kind of creates this hopefully virtuous cycle

mike parsons 39:59

and I totally believe it. I mean, you know, our listeners might be familiar with, you know, they've heard of the idea of karma and you get what you give and all this kind of stuff, but, but I do believe it's true, but often it's the ego that stops us from being the one to give first.

Chad Owen 40:15

Yeah, it's the wrench in the machine.

mike parsons 40:18

I'm so good. I'm working so hard. They're not like it's all that voice. I don't have carrying

Chad Owen 40:24

the team on my back. Yeah,

mike parsons 40:27

yeah, they made the mistake. They have to say sorry, like, it's like all of that ego. And he just nailed it. Right. That's where the breakdown between individuals and teams are. So if we can just get over that and just give a little and hope for the best. Invariably, you know, it does work out directly best but if not, indirectly, if you keep giving people just want to hang out with you. People will feel like you care, that you're generous, that you're not selfish. I'm sure good things will come And that's where we unlock the chance to really start to think about our worldview. And I love the twist that Simon takes in the sort of the second pillar of his book, which is around positivity and positive thinking, is a bit of a cliche. But you know, there's so much truth in positive thinking. I really like how he in the book, Chad, how he sets up this idea of how to think positively.

Chad Owen 41:33

Yeah, and it's, it's really about leveraging the power that you have all together to move as one towards your goal. And being very focused, you know, on the things that you can control versus kind of all those external factors, maybe competitors, a different team. And that again, if you kind of focus on the team and work together, that you can actually achieve your dreams better, faster, quicker. Then if we're focused on those external factors, so here's Simon talking about chasing the dream versus focusing on your competitors.

Unknown Speaker 42:09

One that stood out to me was, we achieve more when we chase the dream instead of the competition. And I wanted to ask you that question in terms of we see so many people with so much struggling with just dealing with the competition, how do we make that mental shift where you start chasing the dream and not competition?

Simon Sinek 42:24

So it's very, very funny because if you think about the companies, the companies obsess about their competitors, which is fine, tactically, which is fine for short term, but long term, most companies aren't brought down by the competition they know about, they're brought down by the competition. They don't know about some new emerging technology. You know, do you think the music business was paying attention to the computer business at all? Of course not. They were paying attention to other music companies. You know, MySpace wasn't focused on friends to Facebook, they didn't know Facebook existed, but it's Facebook the brought them down or significantly hurt their business. Right. In other words, if you don't even know who your competitors are, what's the point of fixating and making all of your business decisions based on competitors? All we're doing is reacting, reacting, reacting. This is why purpose matters. It gives us a Northstar. Yes, we have to concern ourselves with our competition from a tactical and short term point of view. But to make long term strategic decisions based on a competitive set that we don't even know it's complete, based on technology that we don't even know it's, it's completely fully baked. It's madness. It's absolutely madness. Right. So you want to fixate on the on the the on the path.

mike parsons 43:34

How good is that, Chad? Like? There was a couple of good thoughts in that. I think what I liked is stop thinking about your competitors so much because if you look in history, those that displace you I never the ones who came out I think that's great.

Chad Owen 43:50

Yeah, and his examples are really good, too. I, I liked his distinction between short term thinking and long term thinking. He's not saying ignore Competition, but he's saying the competition is really only relevant in the very near term. Sure, you have to be sure that you're at least meeting your competition tit for tat coming out, you know, with things that are besting them. But he's encouraging us to take a much longer term view, based on all the examples that he gave in and I'm sure hundreds more that yeah, it's what's taking you out is not your existing competition. It's something that you don't even know about, whether that's a market force or a trend, or, or a competitor that might not even exist today. But in a year or two from now, it could be the thing that that that takes you under.

mike parsons 44:37

Yeah, and I think a lot of mature companies and mature markets do fall into this habit of chasing their competitors. I mean, can you imagine how much Verizon thinks about at&t? And then how much at&t is thinking about t mobile? Like, can you just imagine like, guys, just take a moment, think long term, stop doing all of you the exact same thing and writing it out on price and all that sort of stuff. But I think the other thing is it's such negative energy. If you become obsessed with your competitors versus like becoming obsessed about a really big dream or a way in which your service, your product could actually be really special for those that use it. Like, I know personally, just the fatigue you can feel by just chasing competitors, like play your own game, you know, in the long term, go for something really big and daring don't just get sucked into some what I call arm to arm combat with the next competitor.

Chad Owen 45:38

Yeah, and in focusing on something that you don't have any control over. You have no control over what your competitors decide to do. Yes, or not do but you can set exactly on goal. You can put the team together to go after it. And yeah, you might fail along the way but like you're controlling your destiny.

mike parsons 45:56

That's actually great. That was another theme inside that clip. I mean, he was He's on fire on that clip, like focus on the things that you control. Right. And, to me, the biggest learning in my life around this idea is that when you focus on the things that you control, there's a certain pace that you can get through hard work. But the problem, the problem that you really face, when you focused on things you don't control, it causes enormous stress because no matter how much you work, you don't solve it. Because it's beyond your control.

Chad Owen 46:39

Yeah, you just end up pulling your hair out and ageing yourself a few years

mike parsons 46:42

completely. Yeah, so this this really is the the opportunity we have, not only in this clip, but this next one. Simon's getting on a tear here. I mean, these build nicely actually, because this next one's all about passion. And, you know, passion is often talked about but rarely understood. And we've got this great clip coming up here. This is Simon Sinek talking about finding belief.

Simon Sinek 47:13

We're often given this advice, like, do what you love. Yeah. Like, what am I supposed to do? Yes, like, find your passion, like, thank you, like, great. Well, like, I don't know what to do tomorrow. For me, passion is the result of something. Right? So if you work hard for something you don't believe in, that's called stress. And if you work for hard for something you do believe and that's called passion. So it's finding the belief it's finding the cause it's finding the purpose, and the passion then shows up. So it's not about doing something with passion and then finding the cause. It's finding the cause, starting with the why, and then the passion is what is what results. Hmm.

Chad Owen 47:49

So find the cause first, and then that will generate the passion. It seems a bit backwards to me.

mike parsons 47:57

Well, no, because I think

Chad Owen 48:00

I just mean at first glance,

mike parsons 48:02

yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think but but the way I process what he's thinking is a cause is like, how could the world be better? How could a product or service be better? How could a thing be like much better? Okay? by for example, Childhood Education really sucks. And let's make it awesome. Because we believe if it's awesome, awesome education leads to awesome opportunities in life. I mean, that's pretty hard to disagree with. So like, okay, let's, let's go fight for that rather than dwelling on Jews. You know, if you're in America, geez, the Canadian high school education so much better. Yeah, let's know. Let's focus on the course let's just give every American child the best chance possible to succeed in life through education. That's, that's really where I think it all takes us today. that once you get into that, cause I think then you go like, what to me, Chad like you can't disagree with it then, like when it's making something better, it's positive impact. I think what it does is it makes it sustainable. Whereas before you kind of burn real bright and then burn out if you don't have that underlying cause and the why you're doing it. And so if you do start there with the cause, and the purpose and why, then it's like, you can pour unlimited passion into that it kind of fuels itself and you can keep that going. Well, if you think about Chad, just to build on this, think about all the amazing people we've covered. And think about how a lot of them had patents Zaha Hadid, she was an Iraqi born woman trying to succeed in the British men's club of architecture. Think about I'm just looking at the list here. Think about the area Currys like they must be a better way to start companies because he admits quite freely. His first one kind of sucks. Simon Sinek he was he was now I've got to find a way to feel better about my work. I mean, I could just go on and on. Like everybody was like, there has to be a better way and they went through thick and thin to get there. That to me, is what's so inspiring because once you've got to because it puts fuel in the belly. Right. And I bet you Ilan musk right now has had so many ups and downs the last year, but I think he has fuel in the belly from this passion to rethink technology and how he makes his dozen passions.

Chad Owen 50:42

Yeah, I think he'll be busy for the rest of his life and for lifetimes, you know, once he figures out how to cryogenically freeze himself and bring himself back or clone himself. Yeah.

mike parsons 50:51

And think about what we learned about Oprah and the challenges that she faced in the early part of her career, because she was an African American woman. Trying to succeed in a men's club and, man, the fuel in the fire.

Chad Owen 51:05

Yeah. And now she's just all about empowering people and you know, coming into their own and yeah, she's she's built an entire billion dollar media empire around that.

mike parsons 51:15

Yes. And that's exactly Chad. What Simon talks about in his book next is once you build trust with others, you got this positive mindset. you've unlocked this passion to finding belief. Then your job is to serve others. Your job is to lift others with you. Yeah, a rising tide, you know.

Chad Owen 51:36

Yeah. And to have their back. Again, I'm reaching back into our last show on leaders eight last but this idea of members of a team having each other's back and the leader, being the person that's the first to volunteer to, you know, to take that blow for the team is really powerful. And he's he's got an interesting story that comes out of the Navy SEALs buds programme that is illustrated I think to a tee,

Simon Sinek 52:02

you will find that they, the leaders of those groups will inspire the others they'll call out to them we can do this. Come on, you got this. And something very strange happens when when officers quit, because it's officers and enlisted, who all go through buds together the Navy SEAL selection process. And when an almost invariably when an officer decides to quit, two or three enlisted guys will quit immediately with him. In other words, that they look to that person if they stick with it, they'll stick with it. But if they quit, I can quit. Right and and and there was a Navy SEAL who was interviewed. He was asked what kind of person makes it through buds. And he replied, I can't tell you the kind of person that makes it through buds but I can tell you the kind of person who doesn't make it through he said the the guys that come in with bulging muscles covered in tattoos want to prove to everybody how strong they are. None of those guys make it through. He said the preening leaders who just delegated all their responsibility. None of those guys make it through. He said the star college athletes who've never been pushed to the core of their being none of those guys Make it through. He said some of the guys who make it through are skinny and scrawny. Some of the guys who make it through you see them shivering out of fear. He says, but all of the guys who make it through when they're physically exhausted, when they're emotionally exhausted when they have nothing left to give, somehow, some way, they're able to dig down deep inside of them to find the energy to help the guy next to them. Those the guys who become seals, it is absolutely that. So our most elite warriors on the planet are not necessarily the strongest, not necessarily the smartest, not necessarily the fittest, but they are most capable of taking care of each other. And that's what makes them the most

mike parsons 53:41

hoo, ha, I mean, that is now we're really getting to the knockout blow of this book. I mean, that for me, speaks to me on so many levels, and I believe it to be such a truth. I see it on the rugby field every weekend. I see it at work. I see it in all factors of my life, like the happiest families are those that are together the happiest sports teams are those that play together. The best companies have very little attrition because people just love being there.

Chad Owen 54:18

Yeah, but I want to, I want to be clear and how I'm understanding him, especially in this clip. It's it's not just together. I think if we dig a little bit deeper, he specifically says, the people that make it through that very arduous programme, I forget what like the dropout quit rate, but it's like, probably close to 90 95% of people that quit that programme is the people that are willing to and go out of their way to help others. Yeah. And help one another. Yep. All those other things that you'd like, if just the lay person showed up and tried to pick people out? Yeah, they'd pick the strongest person and The person that seems like to have the most leadership outward, you know, extroverted leadership capability, but he said all of them wash out, it's actually the people that help they go out of their way to help one another. And that is really just the biggest takeaway for me is this idea of service. And having one another's back and helping one another. I mean, like, it's, you know, I don't want to get all like Kumbaya about this, but yeah, it's like, like, we just have to help one another.

mike parsons 55:28

So let's, let's, let's go into it. But let's do it a little bit. from a different point of view. Let's go for kind of forensically, very binary. I would argue this like a formula that when one team member helps another team member to be better, each of them feel great because of it. But then there's the halo effect that then others see others helping others. So then they start helping and it's like this big compounding of everyone helping everyone so when someone's having a Day, like everyone's like, right? How can we help? And versus that ego position, which is where everyone is like, well, at least I didn't make the mistake. Or I'm too busy doing my thing. I think what happens is this amazing compounding of momentum. Yeah, because everyone is helping everyone. And then what happens is people on the outside, look at the company on the inside and go DESE these are nice people. I'd like to partner with him, be a client of theirs, maybe even work for them. And then they have a great experience. And then it's this big virtuous circle of momentum. That happens because not one that everyone's default is to help each other.

Chad Owen 56:49

Yeah, I kind of have this picture in my mind of three diagrams, or three lines on a diagram. One is just kind of a straight line, cross horizontally. It seems like everyone kind of in their shell no one helping one another and everything is in its very static. What we've just been talking about is, you know, an exponentially increasing curve going very high and up into the right when, as you said, each person helping one another kind of compounds on the rest, and you get this compounding effect on it, but it can just as very well go the opposite direction and do kind of maybe like a spiral of doom shall we call it where as soon as one person begins to sabotage, or you know, act against someone or even just refuse to help? It doesn't take very long for that to just,

mike parsons 57:35

you know, kind of take a dive bomb effect so yeah, that's that's a really interesting way for me to think about it at least Yeah, and and you talked about the negative side for me, it's just like working out. If you work out every day. You create all this positive momentum, but I don't even know if this is true, Chad, but I've heard this thing. When I was living in San Fran, a friend of mine was telling me this story that that If you have a workout routine, let's say it's three or four times a week, every day you skip, you lose a week's worth of fitness. And every week you skip, you lose a month's worth of fitness and so on. And so the point here is I think that once one or two people stop helping the ego culture starts overtaking the helping culture, the serving culture. Hmm. And it's like trust. It's hard to build, but it's so easy to lose. Because inside of us, we've all got The Selfish Gene, the ego that says, Well, why do I always have to, like, say the first thing? Like, why can't it be them? or Why do I have to offer the help? Why doesn't someone offer to help me? And then that's, that's the battle that for me is the battleground of teamwork.

Chad Owen 58:50

Yeah, actually, I, I, I loved how you you said it's either the service culture or the ego culture. That's a really great kind of tool for me to kind Have he? I'm sure you could go into an organisation pretty quickly and understand, okay, is this ego culture or service culture and that can be kind of a quick you know, test that you can do when you're either working with clients or partners or you know, a company they want to work with, I think that's a really great thing to measure them against. It is it wouldn't wouldn't take very much to kind of understand it right? Because you see one, you would either see someone doing something in service or one another or some someone doing something selfish in service of themselves. And then you just think, Okay, I think I think I get how this organisation or exactly

mike parsons 59:32

and then you're looking for the average, right and look, you want to isolate those that that are service minded towards others, because together with them, you'll do so much more than like that defensive ego person. Well, Chad, this kind of gets us right to the very end to the last clip and this was a bit of a slam dunk for us really this one because we kind of just managed to find This great paper Simon, just talking about how powerful this idea was of, you know, together is better. So, before we wrap up, let's have a listen to the man himself, Mr. Simon Sinek talking about together really is the best

Simon Sinek 1:00:18

way. You don't have to know all the answers. And if you don't, you don't have to pretend that you do. The ones the entrepreneurs who make it are the ones who are very open about the fact that they only know what they know. And they don't know what they don't know. Right, right. And they are very willing to ask lots of questions. And you know, some people don't like asking questions for fear of looking stupid, right, you know, but they're very willing to ask questions. They get used to looking stupid. And amazingly, we are surrounded by people who want to help us, but they don't help us because they don't think we need it because we never asked. Right. So really practice asking for help admitting your weaknesses. I'm terrible at the numbers. Right now. You used to hide that. And you know what that means? It means the business is battling right until I asked for help. And somebody said, Oh, I'm good at that I can help you. And I went, oh my god. Thank you. So, I know one thing and I'm really good at a narrow thing. The reason our organisation grows and continues to spread our message, the reason any of my work spreads isn't because of me. If it were just me, I'd be by myself drooling on myself, you know, sort of with all these ideas and nowhere that no way to share them. It's because of throngs of people who believe what I believe share my vision, and commit their talents, their skills that I don't have to to advancing this greater this greater cause, literally together is better.

Chad Owen 1:01:44

There you have it together is better. I don't know if you caught this mic. But he when he's talking about his team, he said the very first thing out of his mouth was there people who believe what I believe, I think I think we've heard that on a previous show. haven't we?

mike parsons 1:02:03

Yes. But isn't I mean, he said it so well. I don't know that we can add anything to it. Bloody hell. He's a good storyteller, isn't he?

Chad Owen 1:02:13

Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious from you, Mike. Interestingly, you know, we started the show kind of talking about how you and he shared this expat heritage and the lessons and that that instilled in your life. I'm curious kind of what other things both from this book and what we've heard here on the show kind of stood out to you most when it comes to working together.

mike parsons 1:02:36

I really enjoyed the timely reminder that we should get out from behind our laptops. I think. walking the halls chatting, connecting, eating together. I mean, this is what it's reminded me of, and actually I loved what you were pushing into on the navy seals. Like, by default, not only doing things together but helping each other be better serving each other, that that creates the bond of trust and the space and time for people to find their passions and to be positive. Those who stood out for me which, which of all the goodies we came over, I mean, maybe you just liked the song together is better.

Chad Owen 1:03:22

Oh, yes, I do love the song. We might have a little treat for you here at the end of the show. I, for me, is his biting commentary about just because you know, you're on a team doesn't mean you are Oh, yeah, a team. How's that? Oh, that's, oh, that's a deep cut. But yeah, like this idea of kind of colleagues versus a true team. I think it can. It can be very lost on on us. And like, what's, what worse thing could happen to you, if you're a team member, you think you're a part of a team, your team is out there doing something. You stick your neck out, you take that risk. And you you get knocked down, and no one is there to pick you up and help you like that is got to be one of the worst feelings in work and like he's just so true. And he's like, just because you say you're on a team doesn't mean you're actually a team.

mike parsons 1:04:15

Yeah. And it's so challenging. Like all his books, actually, thus far. Don't you find that is they've got this, this really curious balance between like, it's a bit of a slap in the face and a pat on the back.

It's like, it's like this shop

Chad Owen 1:04:33

or a splash of ice water.

mike parsons 1:04:37

Because he's like, asking big questions, and it kind of makes you a bit really in your seat and uncomfortable because there's ego, there's chasing competitors. Oh, my gosh, what am I doing? But it's also like, very inspirational to, to just think about what can be done with great teams.

Chad Owen 1:04:58

Yeah, and it's where we've been decided to not do just one show or two shows or even three shows we've decided to do five total shows on Simon here in Don't forget about Episode 41, where we kicked off this kind of extended Simon series as a part of our you know, entrepreneur and author series. Yeah, we are not done yet. Are we Mike?

mike parsons 1:05:22

So true. So we are going to get super practical pragmatic. In the next show, we're going to dive into find your why. And this, this is really going to be about putting into action so much of what Simon teaches. This is about doing it. So this this, this might have a little bit of slap in the face pat on the back as well. I think I should warn everyone. But yeah, you can expect more of the same from Simon Sinek perhaps a little bit practical.

Chad Owen 1:05:58

Yeah. I mean, excited for the tactical episode. Yeah, next week, find your way.

mike parsons 1:06:04

Yeah, I agree. I agree. And, of course, you can find links to all the books on our show notes@moonshots.ai. And tell us I mean, I feel like this is a real case studies show coming up where we can reflect on projects, teams and companies we've worked in and what's worked and what hasn't and our own personal story. So I'd invite any of our listeners that are feeling like they're trying to get this sort of why thinking leaders eat last, or together is better. Like, you know, share your stories with us go to moonshots.io. Chad, you love a good email. What's out? What's our email address? Oh, yeah, email us.

Chad Owen 1:06:46

At hello@moonshots.io that goes both to Mike and myself. We love getting the feedback from you all. I've even been getting text messages from people listening to our architects series in this assignment series. So yeah, thank you. So much listeners for getting in touch. Excellent.

mike parsons 1:07:02

All right. Well, Chad, we've been on a journey here of teamwork of collaboration, there's been, as you would say, a little bit of ice water. But we've really, really learned that it starts with being open and trusting in others having real world contact, and unlocking some of that positivity and passion. And teams can do amazing things when they've got those things, but their key ingredient is to be serving each other. And when that happens, together really is

Chad Owen 1:07:36

better. Well, with that, Mike, I want to say thank you and good morning to you signing off here in the evening in New York. Yeah, I'm excited. We've got two more episodes with Simon and who knows what is coming next. Damn

mike parsons 1:07:54

straight. Ted. Thanks to you. Thanks to all of our listeners, hit us up at moonshots. dot IO. It's been a great third instalment of the Simon Sinek series. We'll see you next time.

Unknown Speaker 1:08:07

That's the wrap

Unknown Speaker 1:08:09

my head don't slip on

Unknown Speaker 1:08:13

the mountain

Transcribed by https://otter.ai