SIMON SINEK

2 OF 5

LEADERS EAT LAST

EPISODE 54

SHOW TRANSCRIPT

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mike parsons 0:10

Hello and welcome to the moonshots podcast. It's Episode 54. I'm your co host, Mike Parsons. And as always, I'm joined by the man from Brooklyn himself, Mr. Chad Owen.

Chad Owen 0:22

Hey there, Mike. We've got we've got another show on one of our favourite authors coming up.

mike parsons 0:30

I know how action packed was our first Simon Sinek shiny minutes for

Chad Owen 0:35

clips.

mike parsons 0:38

It was a marathon of inspiration. And it was when I reflect back on on the previous show that was all around his novel. Start with why. And for me that was all about inspiration and vision and somehow unlocking purpose inside of us. But the job is not complete chat because we've got more Simon Sinek inspiration to find so where should we go next?

Chad Owen 1:07

Yeah, so he he took on purpose in his first book start with why and I would say he took on maybe an even more difficult topic for this book in that's the topic of leadership. So on this episode we're going to unpack every nugget of knowledge and insight that Simon's dropped in his second book leaders eat last. Now

mike parsons 1:35

I have to say when I when I read this book and it originally came out, I was pretty pumped because obviously you know, start with I had come out he's famous Apple talk had come out and everyone was was using this circle of why, and I have to say he's second installation. Leaders eat last has to be one of the greatest The sequels I mean, if if you think about what Empire Strikes Back was to Star Wars, this is certainly a book that matches he's first and equally has affected me and and how I behave. I think subconsciously, I at least attempt to do some of the things he talks about in this book. And it's, you know, I try to make them as much as I can habits. So these, this second installation for me is another like top five, pull it off the bookshelf at any given moment, google it reference it all the time. What about you, Chad? Like, how has how has leaders eat last? has that affected you?

Chad Owen 2:43

I like this book, even more than start with why because it's a more challenging idea, or the ideas that he leaves us with in this book, I think are much harder to actually go out and do so you know, we start with why We have you know, the three circles and Okay, we know what we do. And we know how we do it and Okay, you know, like, let's, let's navel gaze and figure out, you know why, why we do it. And you know, it's kind of like this nice, nice thought experiment. And you know, once you do it, it's it can be very useful. What he lays out in this book is hard.

mike parsons 3:24

Yeah, and that's probably why there's probably a reason behind that is that he found so much inspiration in leadership from the Marines, didn't he?

Chad Owen 3:35

Yeah, in in true Simon fashion, he uses amazing stories and real anecdotes to illustrate his points. So we're gonna jump right into what I think is the best story that that has come out of this book and an amazing example that I think encapsulates really all of the ideas from the book. So here's science In relaying the story of Johnny Bravo, the date is

Simon Sinek 4:05

August 16 2002.

And flying over a valley in Afghanistan, or to a 10 warthogs at a 10 is a heavily armoured low flying slow aircraft designed to provide ground cover for troops on the ground. And on this night, it's a very, very cloudy night the storms in the area and these two planes hanging up above just waiting in case anybody down below needs help. Up there, it's gorgeous. The moon is is bright, the thousands of stars in the sky. The clouds look like the snow had just fallen. Down below in the valley. However, there were 22 Special Forces Special Operations Forces troops trying to make their way through the country. And they could feel that something was wrong. They could feel they felt anything He's one of the pilots up above callsign Johnny Bravo. And yes, he stands like this. He could feel their unease listening to him over the radio. So he decided he was going to go down below the cloud and just have a look. He tells his wingman hang out up here, I'll go see what there is. And he points his plane down into the clouds. And as he's going through the clouds, the coal comes over the radio, troops in contact. troops in contact is what they say when they come under effective fire. It means they're in trouble. So now Johnny Bravo points is playing straight down the planes getting thrashed about the turbulence. And when he comes out below the clouds, he's less than 1000 feet off the ground, and he's flying in a valley cliffs on both sides. Now, this is only 2002. And the planes were not yet equipped with ground hugging radar. And worse, they were using old Russian maps. That's all they had at the time. And the site that greets him is something like he's never seen before and not in training. Not in the movies, he sees tracer fire fire coming from all sides of the valley pointed right in the middle of where the American forces are. And so he picks a point and starts to lay down suppressing fire. And he's flying and he's in danger of hitting the cliff Of course, he knows his speed. He knows his distance from the map and he literally counts out loud while he lays down the suppressing fire. One 1002 1003 1004 1005 1000 pulls hard on the stick pulls back up into the cloud comes down around again. One 1002 1003 1000 4000 good hits good hits, it says on his radio, and again he comes around one thousand five 1000 he runs out of ammunition fuel this fine. flies back up to the top of the cloud tells his wingman you need to get down there. his wingman isn't sure about the condition so the two of them fly back down together. his wingman lays down the surprising fire and Johnny Bravo counts as they fly three feet apart from each other wing to wing. One 1002 1003 1000 4005 1000 up and around again. One 1002 1003 1004 1005 1000 that night 22 Americans went home alive with zero casualties. My question is, is where do people like Johnny Bravo come from? Who are they? Who would risk their lives for others so that may they may survive? I asked Johnny Bravo. I asked him, Why would you do it? Why would you risk your life that others may survive? And he gave me the same answer that everybody in his position gives?

Because they would have done it for me. Hoo, ha, I mean,

mike parsons 7:35

I mean, you just hear this this story. And it just puts you on a whole new place about commitment, working together and being fearless in the face of challenge, doesn't it?

Chad Owen 7:49

Yeah, I can't help it get chosen almost a bit weepy hearing that story, just because I think it encapsulates what true leadership really is it's it's someone doing something not not saying something. That's, that's what it boils down to. for me.

mike parsons 8:08

Yeah, extreme extremely powerful. And what will go on to learn in the coming clips is how this behaviour is quite contrarian to some of the leadership norms or if you will, bad habits that have crept into how a lot of organisations were, what I think is so, so great about this opportunity is to challenge ourselves and be a bit vulnerable, because it really exposes not only a question of what are you doing for others is like, how unselfish Can you really be and we're old by genetics built to be a bit selfish so that we can survive, but it exposes this big murky, muddy grey area from which great leaders are born. Chad, I'm just so excited to die. into more of these clips, but I love how he he's kind of this clip really sets the context for our entire conversation, which is where are we with leadership? How might we be great leaders? And we've got some great case studies as well coming up and some some last thoughts. And if anybody listening here is wants to track down the Johnny Bravo story. We'll have those links in the show notes, but you can find it moonshots.io I think the bar has been elevated Chad, where to next? Yeah, well, thankfully,

Chad Owen 9:33

Simon answers his question of where does Johnny Bravo come from in this very next clip that we have?

Simon Sinek 9:41

So where do people like Johnny Bravo come from? Well, it's an age old question. They're not born, they're actually made. If you look at the human animal, the human animal is like a machine. There are systems inside our bodies that are trying to get us to do things that are in the interest of the survival of the human animal, right. Just like an In, in the business and the company, if you want people to do something, you offer them some sort of positive or negative incentive to direct the behaviour, right. So if you want people to achieve a certain goal, you offer them a bonus if they achieve that goal, and they'll work towards that goal because they want the bonus. It's a very simple system. The human body works exactly the same way. It works exactly the same way inside our bodies are chemicals that are trying to get us to do things that are in the best interest of us. If you've ever had a feeling of happiness, pride, joy, love, fulfilment. All of these feelings that we have are chemically produced feelings. And they're produced by four chemicals predominantly, these are the basically responsible for all of the feelings that I would generically call happiness. They are endorphins, dopamine, serotonin and oxytocin. And so

Chad Owen 10:52

Hmm. Leaders are made not born. What do you what do you feel about that? Then that statement, Mike?

Well,

mike parsons 11:04

you know, I, I must say my first thought is that if I look at my general bias, I've always generally accepted the idea someone's either got it, or they don't, you know, the nature versus nurture thing. But I guess as I get a few more grey hairs in life, I think I'm coming around to cynic in thinking about like, context and environment and the conditions in which you live in work. You know, they just set you up for success or failure. And I think that when I think about where we are today in business, I think we still largely have this false illusion of the maniacal Steve Jobs style of standing in an ivory tower commanding the troops in a sort of almost a sort of overly confident dictatorial hubris. Based way, you don't see a lot of vulnerability, empathy and humility in leadership. But I feel like where Simon is taking us is to some of the choices we can make, about how we want to lead what kind of companies we want to work in.

Chad Owen 12:19

Yeah. And I love how Simon draws it directly to the brain science. While he's not an academic, I do like that he, you know, he goes to the neuroscientists to kind of back him up. And so when I hear him say, great leaders are made not born. I think what he's pointing to there is that there are patterns in our, you know, there's, there's neurons that are forming all the time in our brains, and they're receptive to those four different chemicals. And as we are ourselves being led in a positive way, you know, we Have more positive and happy feelings. And I think the same is when we're leading, we're helping others, you know, generate that that positive brain chemical reaction in the brain. And I think for me, too, it gives me a bit of hope that maybe for those of us that don't have as strong of a personality, or an outwardly seeming leadership capability, that, you know, there, there is some science behind, you know, if you do these certain behaviours, you can cause these reactions in the people in which you're leading to, to help bring them along on the journey with you.

mike parsons 13:37

Yeah, and and I think when we when in order to think about the future and the steps we can take, because I think in every single one of us is a leader. I think we actually have to pause and really look at the environment that's been created around leadership today. And what's really interesting is There's a real sense that I alluded to have this false sense of what a leader should look like and how they should behave. And this next clip cynic gives this wonderful sort of quick history lesson and how he got to what he calls a leadership crisis.

Simon Sinek 14:19

At the leadership crisis has nothing to do with the presidency. I think we've had a leadership crisis for quite some time and we've been steadily getting it's been steadily getting worse over the past 20 or 30 years. And it's primarily due to the fact that we we misunderstand what leadership is and the strategies and the ways we're building our organisations are based on the false definition of leadership. Let me give you an example. So in business, for example, too many of our standard business philosophies today, the way we normally run businesses are leftovers from philosophies and ideas that were introduced in the 80s and 90s. So for example, the concept of shareholder supremacy was a theory proposed in late 1970s popularised in the 80s and 90s, and is now the standard way of doing business. Remember the 80s and 90s were boom years, relative peace in the world, a kinder and gentler Cold War. And so a lot of the ideas that we were generating on how to lead and and how to build our businesses were based on those conditions. In other words, when boom years there we sort of become a little more selfish, right? So shareholder supremacy was a theory proposed back then popularised 80s and 90s now it's standard way of doing business and arguably hasn't been a successful experiment. Every CEO of every public company, it's a big open secret hates the analyst community hates Wall Street, yet they play the game. The concept of using mass layoffs to balance the books, which is now standard practice in so many large businesses, public and private, that we don't even recognise how destructive it is, to the human spirit and to the culture of an organisation did not exist in the United States prior to the 1980s did not exist, but it was popularised in the 80s and 90s and now has become normal. And so you see a lot of those sort of me first and putting the organisation Before the people or numbers before people really really in, in government policy and in business that are now standard today, these are very, very different times and I think that leadership hasn't hasn't kept up with the times. The organisations that understand prioritising human beings, the life of a human being over the abstraction of a number are the ones that outperform out innovate, have, by the way, have no millennial problems.

Then Then the other companies

Chad Owen 16:31

I love this idea of like in the late 70s and 80s, in a way the corporation almost becomes an individual and a person that is given preference over the real people inside of the organisation. I'm thinking of this fantastic documentary called the corporation. Yes, exactly

mike parsons 16:54

where you took me to Yeah, great document.

Chad Owen 16:57

Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, the Just that documentary is talking about this transition of how corporations and companies were created to help serve those of us that were working inside of them and the customers that, you know, that we were serving. But then in the 70s, and 80s, they kind of, you know, were, they mutated into these unwieldy things that could, you know, we could no longer control and as Simon says, you know, it's all it becomes all about the numbers, I know, that many of us can identify with, with with that, you know, being seen, like, you know, we don't matter inside of the company, we're just a number or an email address, you know, we're not like a real human being. That's, that's, that's, that's working at the company. And I think he's so right in, in identifying that is, is one of the biggest drivers of how leadership is has failed and is failing people inside of those companies today.

mike parsons 17:53

Yeah. The, the opportunity I think that we have in looking at this leadership crisis. And what he's forcing us to do is just say, well, hang on, let's challenge the status quo here. Let's just pause for a second and ask ourselves, are we really doing the right thing? And what we're going to get to in this show is like, how might we do it better? But in order to get there, I think he has another really powerful story that we've got here, where he's like, actually, when you think about what's happened, and it's sort of a story of hubris, and it's a bit self indulgent, and and, and he points to some of the historical reasons for that is his proposition. We have it all backwards, because if you think about, well, who gets the recognition So, this next clip is really great. You're gonna love this. This is Simon Sinek talking about who gets the medal. Now, if you

Simon Sinek 18:49

think about it, in the military, they give medals to people who are willing to sacrifice themselves that others may gain. In business. We give bonuses to people who are willing to sacrifice others so that we may gain We have it backwards. Wouldn't you like to work in an organisation in which you have the absolute confidence, the absolute knowledge that other people that you may or may not know who work in the same organisation as you would be willing to sacrifice themselves so that you may survive? And in? And we're not talking about giving your life? I mean, we don't even like to give up

credit.

Chad Owen 19:21

Yeah, what does it take more blame and give more credit? That's kind of a little saying that I think, you know, helps me remember what Simon is getting at here.

mike parsons 19:35

Yeah.

The setting I think that we're already starting to see is that things got a little bit back to front, you might call it the rise of capitalism, you might call it the rise of the corporation, or you just might have the capacity to rise above that and just say, humans do have quite a Selfish Gene and that's always conflicting with leadership. And this, this reminds me of this really powerful idea he had, like the greatest leaders in the world never had an army and it's like Gandhi, Jesus, you know, all these these carrying Luther King, right? They never went to war. In fact, they preached peace and empathy. Look at how popular today the Dalai Lama is. So I think we get a few hints at already. And cheating a little bit here, we get a few hints in, in when you see the way he's getting us to rethink what we think leadership is. We start to, you know, it starts to peel open and we see opportunity. And I think that where this really gets powerful, is that the truest form of leadership has nothing to do with the title or the corner office. And in this next clip, Simon Sinek tells exactly what it has to Do with when we talk about leadership.

Simon Sinek 21:03

Leadership has nothing to do with rank. leadership has a responsibility. It's not about being in charge. It's about taking care of those in your charge. And we, you know, I know many people who sit at the highest levels of organisations we all do, who are not leaders, they have authority. And we do as they tell us because they have authority over us, but we would not follow them. And we all know people who are very junior in organisations who have no authority, but they've made the choice to look after the person to the left of them, and they've made the choice to look after the person to the right of them. And that's why we call them leaders. Leaders are not necessarily the ones in charge. They're the ones with the courage to go first first towards the unknown first towards the danger first to be humiliated because it's the right thing. And the amazing thing is the reason we call them leaders because when they do that, others follow.

And, and it really, it really is a courage thing.

Chad Owen 21:49

Courage.

Yeah, I love how he brings it to courage. And sometimes I have issue with so many military metaphors, but it's So apt, in this particular case, because there's so many amazing examples of this true embodiment of leadership, but like, courage doesn't necessarily mean running out into bullets, as he says it can be, you know, being willing to go out there and take the criticism and, you know, be the first to speak even though you know, someone may shoot down your idea, those small forms of courage, I think, are just as demonstrative of leadership as the kind of literally putting your life on the line. For others.

mike parsons 22:34

Yes. And and I think where, where it really comes to life is, is when he forces us to think about to take your foot just one step further that, that the courage of leadership is is giving the people around you a chance to thrive and to do really well, but they may also fail, but you will bear the responsibility for getting things done. Mm hmm. So, can you as what he's really challenging us to ask of ourselves here is, can I like devote myself to others so that they might thrive and receive the recognition, but I actually bear the responsibility of getting the work done.

Chad Owen 23:19

That sounds really hard.

mike parsons 23:22

It's almost counterintuitive when you think about genetics, right?

Chad Owen 23:26

Yeah. As you're saying, you know, we have this literal Selfish Gene that that keeps us so focused on me and perpetuating me. This, you know, another visual that comes to mind is being a leader is being that net underneath the trapeze artist. Mm hmm. So, you're cheering the trapeze artists on, like, despite their kind of crazy death defying acts, and you have to be that net. That's it. need them to, to catch them when they inevitably fail? Right? Because at some point, it's just the law of gravity that the trapeze artist has to come down at some point.

mike parsons 24:11

Yeah, and and where where we are right now is a rather than thinking of leadership being the captain, the coach, the CEO, the Prime Minister, the President in name, it's much more about behaviours. And those behaviours, start with the humble act of putting others before yourself. And this is where we are in taking on that responsibility.

Chad Owen 24:48

Yeah, yeah. for them as well. Yes. As you were saying,

mike parsons 24:52

Yeah, I mean, a coach, literally, of any sports person or team should ask themselves In the face of a defeat, what did I not do to prepare them rather than valid me down?

Chad Owen 25:07

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly.

mike parsons 25:10

And, and I can tell you being sometimes being on the sideline every Saturday, in a pretty intense rugby match as a coach, I'm sitting there, and it's just like, Okay, well, we didn't do that drill at training, Note to self. That's what we're doing next week. Because if you can, if you can do that, you know, world of opportunity opens up. But if you're not able to ask of yourself, Well, what can I have done better to support them to be successful? Then you're going to get to a pretty lonely

Chad Owen 25:43

place, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I'm excited about this next section of clips because we're actually going to learn what it means to eat last night. It sounds kind of like a funny thing at first, but I think once you hear Once you hear the origin of where this analogy come from, I think it will begin to click in that, oh, there is a new way to think about leadership. And there's actually a pretty simple behaviour, as you've been pointing to Mike, that leaders demonstrate that makes them the leader. So let's hear from Simon explaining exactly what leaders eat last means.

Simon Sinek 26:26

I sat down with the Marine Corps General, General Flynn, actually, who wrote the foreword for the book. And I said to him, what makes the Marines so great. And he looked at me and said, officers eat last. And that sort of struck me that if you compare that to the business world, in the entrepreneurial world, entrepreneurs are always told yourself first look after yourself first. And yet, I'm being told by this marine general that it's the complete opposite. And there's, there's a symbolic gesture. But more importantly, there's a there's an importance to it there. There's a photograph, I So, in these Kenya shootings that just happened not so long ago, we had the amazing experience that a photographer happened to be in the building. Usually we see the aftermath. And here we now have photographs of the actual shooting going on. And there's one photograph that was in the New York Times, that both haunted me and inspired me to this day wanted me and inspires me, I should say, and it's the photograph of a mother, in the sound of gunshots, lays herself on top of her child. And you see this picture of a mother lying on top of her child and you realise that's what it is. That's what leadership is that when there is danger, it's not protecting myself, but it's rather willing to put myself in harm's way to protect another that's what eating last means. It means that I will give the very, the very essence of life food and water I will give it to the person I love first, so that they may live even if it means I eat less. And that's what officers eat last means it is symbolic but it is also very real. real leadership, real leaders. I've even given up the terminology of good leaders and great leaders. You're either a leader or you're not a leader. That's it. real leaders, biological anthropological leaders are are that mother, who

instinctively without weighing the pros and cons or the bad things that may happen to her,

throw herself on her child.

That's what leadership is, you know, do we believe that our our leaders would throw themselves on us? You know, if they heard gunshots, if the economy shook, would they quickly throw themselves on us?

That that's, that's what leaders eat last means.

It is very literal. It is very, very literal.

mike parsons 28:49

so powerful because it just immediately forces you to say well, okay, with all the people that I work with, how can I I put myself last How can I put their needs in front of mine? And it's it's a very challenging question. And it takes a takes a long time to process. And to your point at the beginning of the show Chad, you're like, this is hard stuff. So for our listeners, if they're like, Hey guys, this is pretty heady stuff. I'm not sure if I'm with you all the way here I'm not tracking. What we've done here is really laid it out in that in its highest form. It's this this sense of humility, to put others before yourself, but I promise to all of the listeners that we do have the answers, at least the ideas that which we can all try and implement, but you really need to chew on this one first because everything comes out of that and I think that a way to think about this next clip is that if you have Have any if you can buy the ID and the practice and the behaviour of putting others before yourself, this next direction, actually is the first of many keys on how you might bring this to life. So let's have a listen to Simon Sinek talking about direction and sense of purpose.

Unknown Speaker 30:19

How does framing a sense of purpose catalyse leadership capability. The first

Simon Sinek 30:26

page of my book I sort of wrote an ode to leadership sort of why I wrote the book, which is there are leaders and there are those who lead. There are people who derive their authority of their power from their rank or their position, but then there are those who lead and whether they're individuals or whether their organisations, we follow those who lead not because we have to, but because we want to, we follow those who lead not for them, but for ourselves. And leaders don't need position and rank. If they don't win the office or they don't get the promotion. They will continue to lead where there are others. Who's there all their authority comes from simply their rank or simply their position. The reason we follow those who lead true leaders is because they give us a sense of direction, they show us a sense of purpose. You know, it's one thing to say they show us the path. But the whole idea of Blazing a path is that there is no path. And it's the ability to look at a field of grass and say, there needs to be a path there. And I will lay down the first steps. And that's wonderful. And, and that's inspiring. And, and great leadership comes from those who pointed the direction and say, who's in

Chad Owen 31:38

who's out. But I thought that,

mike parsons 31:41

like I founded the company, and myself CEO, and pay myself 20 times. Everyone else like that makes me the leader of this company, right? No, no, no Mr. Oh, and eight is the ability to look at the hard path and say guides. Look, I'll take the first step, come with me, we can do this. And I think this is so good. Because you know those moments at work where you're like, Damn, we kind of have to stop and go a different direction. And it means a lot of work might be a bit embarrassed or whatever, on a project or the business overall. But it's the person who's prepared to like, roll up the sleeves and says, Well, okay, I'll,

Chad Owen 32:29

I'll start.

mike parsons 32:30

I'll start doing this to get it going. Right there. What that direction and that sense of purpose is the start of leadership, the courage to go, Okay, I'm going to take the first step, I'll take the first hit.

Chad Owen 32:45

Yeah, but I thought it was, you know, telling people what they should be doing and being sure that we're hitting our numbers and you know, rewarding the people that are doing well and punishing those. Those that aren't. I'm still confused here. Mike has

mike parsons 33:00

So I give you a great analogy that really speaks to this book. Many people who don't do well in the job are to use a sporting metaphor playing out of position. So if you were to use basketball because hey, we're in NBA Finals time and warriors are on on a tail warriors. There we go. What happens is when people are not performing, they're often you know, for example, it's a Ford, who's playing in a guard position, or a centre who's playing as a Ford. Or maybe it's like, Hey, we play a fast, high tempo game. And this person is a really kind of structured and methodical player. And there's a there's a mismatch. And I think this idea of a leader, when people are not performing is the person that's saying, Well, what, what am I doing wrong? Is the coach or the leader? Have I put someone in the wrong position? What might be a better position that better suits them. Or in the worst case, a great leader calls an apple an apple and says, Hey, you know, we play a fast high tempo game, that's just not your thing. It's not about you being good or bad or otherwise, we just don't have a fit. And, and this thinking is really powerful and great leaders are the ones that have the ability to listen, and to get the right plays in the right positions, and playing the right sort of approach, if you will, or methodology. And that, to me is the start of the real role and the real responsibilities of a true leader.

Chad Owen 34:44

Yeah, I think to roll with your basketball analogy, it's also on the coach leading the team to not forget about his bench. You know, if he only focuses on those superstars, he's gonna put them into They're gonna get worn down and tired. And they're, they're not going to perform. So if he's not, if he's not giving everyone the opportunity to shine, then it's on him, you know, because he, he wasn't putting them in. And so we've got this really interesting clip where Simon's talking about being sure that you're not just protecting yourself and your other maybe C suite, people when it comes to leadership, but you're actually extending it to the far reaches, of the group or organisation that you're leading.

Simon Sinek 35:29

The responsibility of leadership is two things, one, to determine who gets in and who doesn't get in. This is what it means to start with. Why what are our values? What are our beliefs? Who can we allow in? Second thing is to decide how big this is? How big do we make the circle of safety? How big do we make the circle of belonging? Do we keep it around just our C level executives and call it an inner circle and allow others to try and fend for themselves and maybe try and get into our inner circle? Or do we extend it to the outermost edges of the organisation great leaders extend the circle of safety the circle of belonging out to the outermost edges. So the most junior person feels like they belong feels safe. Feels like they have top cover from somebody like Johnny Brava.

mike parsons 36:16

That one's great that it reminds me I don't know if this is even Fact or Fiction. You know that great story, Chad, where I believe it was JFK was visiting the team that are going to put a man on the moon and he asked the cleaner what what do you do here? And he says, I'm putting a man on the moon. That's, that's an example of when responsibility of leadership and creating that sense of purpose extends to everyone.

Chad Owen 36:44

Yeah. The the leadership team at NASA got everyone and enrolled down to the person that was emptying the trash bins. Mm hmm. in that in that mission. Mm hmm. For anyone that hasn't seen the documentary Apollo 11. It's it's a must see it. was produced by National Geographic and it is the story of the launch of the moon mission from from launch all the way through completion when they returned back to Earth the the mission is on my mind because it's the 50th anniversary in July So anyways, it's it's a fantastic documentary that that you should watch.

mike parsons 37:20

All right, that's another one for the for the show notes. I'm I'm busy making a note here. So we made sure this is going to be one action packed show notes@moonshots.ai. So we're getting a pretty clear picture now of the responsibility of a leader that in that you put others before yourself, you have this capacity of direction and sense of purpose, you know, you've got to take that first step and it must extend to the outer reaches of the organisation. Now here is like a closing thought on this chapter. There is sort of de facto standard That are applied to us about how we should do things at work. Okay. And what Simon Sinek does is he elevates our awareness to what the true expectations are. So let's go beyond like, Hey, I did the thing. It's what what everyone said I had to do. I did it. I met the the sort of the minimum requirements. This next clip is Simon expanding leadership to not being just getting the bare minimum done, but the because it's the right thing to do. Yes, exactly. Chad, he's like, dare to ask yourself, what is the right thing? Not how can I be okay, and keep out of trouble. But to lean the other way, how can I be the best version of myself to keep our basketball analogy? That's exactly what Steph Curry is all about to be the best version of himself. And what we've got here Here is a clip

Chad Owen 39:01

where

mike parsons 39:02

Simon says, look, forget what the law says, forget what compliance says. That's like, that's a hygiene factor. Ask yourself, what is right? What is the moral thing to do, and this is what great leaders do. So let's get some inspiration from Simon Sinek on morality

versus the law of morals and morality and leadership.

Simon Sinek 39:27

And I think it goes back to Milton Friedman, you know, we have a standard definition that we sort of embraces the definition of business and the responsibility of companies as a Milton Friedman definition. And he said, worse, the effect of you know, the purpose of business is to maximise profits within the bounds of the law, which I think is a completely wrong definition. It's a very, you know, morality and ethics are a higher standard than the law. And we hear it all the time when organisations do things that we we know are wrong, they make us uncomfortable, and we questioned them. They all say the same thing. We broke no laws. I mean, here's the analogy right? is so the Titanic, the builders of the Titanic when they built that ornament when they built that ship the the laws and regulations that govern lifeboats back then were built for the biggest ships that existed at the time which were fairies and the Titanic was four times bigger than the biggest ferry. So there was no lifeboats for all regulation that didn't exist it was based on numbers so the the the makers the Titanic because it was too expensive to put all lifeboats for all actually put the maximum number of lifeboats as required by regulation on the Titanic, which was a quarter of what the size of the boat actually was right? But they actually left berths for future lifeboats knowing that eventually the regulations would catch up. Right. So the Titanic hits a like an iceberg. We all know the story. Do you know how many people died on the Titanic versus how many were saved? 24 5% of the people who were aboard the Titanic were saved 25% three quarters died. In other words about the number of lifeboats. They didn't have. They broke no laws. But

Unknown Speaker 41:12

clearly,

Simon Sinek 41:14

morality says, shouldn't you have a lifeboat for everyone, even though they broke no laws? Now, that's the analogy for the way I think too much of business is conducted, which is it's conducted with the bounds of the law where everybody knows that there's a morality that they're missing. And they know that eventually the regulations will catch up. But I don't understand why people don't act morally with

Chad Owen 41:35

despite the wall. Hmm. There's so many examples of this. And what comes to mind, for me is like, all of the environmental destruction that has happened, because oh, well, you know, the EPA or environmental people didn't say anything about dumping these toxic chemicals here. So, you know, we'll just do it and then, you know, eventually it gets legislated that they can't, but But now we have all these Superfund sites that can't, can't ever be cleaned up because they're so contaminated.

mike parsons 42:07

Yeah, they didn't break any laws. No, no. And I think you can choose to create a culture that might ask the trickier questions that might challenge your assumptions. Or you can create a culture that just does the bare minimum. I think that's completely at your discretion. And if I'm really honest, there are times in life where we're all faced with, do I do the bare minimum, or do I lean in, and it is the essence of what you talked about, right at the beginning, why this book is so meaningful, because it's just so damn hard to do, and to do consistently, and it's like hitting the snooze button. You know, it's just like, it's just so so hard like that. human condition is such that sometimes we're just like, ah, I just don't have it in me. Leaders are the ones that more often than not do have it in them.

Chad Owen 43:11

Yeah. I am curious for you, Mike, being a leader in in the leaders eat last fashion sounds really hard. I'm curious for you what what have you seen as the benefits of people that have stepped up in and lead in the way that Simon is, is talking to us about in taking the responsibility and providing that air cover for everyone and being the first to kind of rush towards the danger or uncertainty? we've, we've heard a lot of kind of why that's important in some of these behaviours that these leaders exhibit. I'm curious from you and your experience, kind of what you have seen to be the value of that because it sounds like Simon is asking so much of so much sacrifice to be a leader. And I'm kind of curious for those of us out there kind of maybe asking yourself, so like, why is this even worse? Yes,

mike parsons 44:08

yeah. Um, I would say that the feeling the way I can express what's the leadership of a bunch of people being self less putting the team before themselves, is that with a small number of people, you can achieve amazing things because everyone's contributing to the success of the team. And a great example I can give that you and I both had is a couple of weeks ago in New York. The two of us were sitting with two of our colleagues and over a course of four weeks, we had done two massive design thinking workshops. We travelled the world. We had been working nights Stop for four weeks. And we just sat together around a table after we had finished another successful session. And we had been prototyping for 48 hours straight. We were the last ones. And we just sat together, drinking a beer for several hours just enjoying being together and the sense of accomplishment and satisfaction and to know that each and every person had somehow gone above and beyond for the group. And we were all enjoying the halo of that the sense of well being. Hmm. And that was probably the favourite moment that I had the most enjoyable, comfortable, happy moment was just sitting around a table drinking some beers and thinking, Wow, we did a thing. That to me is a win win for people. Just put The team before themselves, and I think that's a feeling that you serve really haven't worked that, you know, that for me is proof it's all worth it because you just, it just feels good. And and just that absolute feeling of deep teamwork and connectivity. I think that's what we would all love to have at work, right.

Chad Owen 46:24

Yeah. And to have this, this client and partner come along with us on that journey, I think because in, in large part due to the leadership from from our team, you know, because the work that we do is hard. And it can be frustrating and confronting to get in front of your end customers and users and in your audience members in the way that that we did over those two days at the workshops, but we're the, you know, the first to be willing to get maybe a bit goofy and to kind of let some of our guard down and show them, hey, if we can do this and make a bit of a fool of ourselves like it's okay for you to do the same. Yeah.

mike parsons 47:06

And I have a completely different personal experience was, in 2008 when Lehman Brothers went bankrupt, the global economy just literally stopped. And I remember getting a call and I was running a big agency at the time. And our biggest client rang us. It was a car manufacturer. And they rang us and said, We sold in the country of a un, he was referring to a particular model of car. He said, We sold one of these models last month, just one. Wow. So I want you to imagine the UK 60 million people. And one of the biggest car companies on the planet said yep, one of our special models. Yeah, yeah, we sold one. One of those last month. That's how much the economy froze. And he said, I'm sorry, but we have massive budget cuts. And it's gonna be huge, a huge blow for you guys. And I remember that. I mean, it was just like, some sort of sledgehammer had come flying my way because the immediate implication was, it's such a big agency, there's no way we could carry so many people that wouldn't have work and, and so forth. And the thing that as a management team, we said, Look, let's be very open with everybody about what's happening. And it was very confronting, because I had to stand in front of 120 people and say, Hey, ladies and gents, we're in some pretty big trouble. Yeah. And we decided to do that and every week we actually printed into the the p&l and the cash flow for the business to the entire company. Because the thing we said, as Alicia team is we are like, well, how would you? If we were in the other any other shoes? What would we want to hear? And everybody knew the economy was tanking, it was everywhere. So it's like, well, it's not like we can hide this. So I guess we're gonna have to like, tell them how it is. Long story short here every week, we would present this and we did this for months. And I cannot tell you how surprising the response was from all the people. And I remember it by the end of the year things had stabilised a lot. And I just remember the, the, the, the joy and the real whoops, that I felt at our end A Christmas party where people, it was more than just let's have a few drinks since the end of the year. It was like we survived. Yeah, we made it was the film. Yeah. And it was such a confronting personal situation, kind of standing in front of a bunch of people and saying, hard guys were in so much trouble.

Chad Owen 50:22

But no, thank you, thank you for for sharing that story. And like it helps me understand what's kind of at risk and what it takes to, to be in a leadership position to have to make those tough calls. We've also got another really great case study of a leadership team, that in Simon's view, you know, did the right thing in not only, you know, shouldering the responsibility for the performance and maybe some failures of the company, but to get every one to begin to take on that responsibility for them. themselves as well.

Simon Sinek 51:02

Bob Chapman runs a company called Barry wehmiller. It's about a two or $3 billion business about 8000 employees, good old fashioned American manufacturing. So when Kimberly Clark needs a machine to make toilet paper, belly, Barry wehmiller makes that machine and if you ask Bob, what does the company do, he won't tell you where in manufacturing, he he will tell you that we're building extraordinary people to do extraordinary things. And if you ask Bob, how does he know he's successful, he'll say, we measure success by the way we touch the lives of people. And he firmly believes these things. And and I've written about Bob in in, in leaders eat last. It's how I come. It's how I came to know him. about somebody who truly understands that businesses is a people thing. And I'll give you one example of how he's He's different. So in 2008, during the recession, Barry wehmiller was hit very, very hard by the recession. Of course, in when in recessionary times, large capital expenditures get cut first and so that affects buying new machinery and they lost 30% of that. pipeline like that. So like so many companies, they couldn't afford their labour pool. And like so many companies, the board got together and said to Bob, you need to have layoffs, you need to save $10 million. And Bob absolutely refused. And instead, what they did is they implemented a furlough programme, where every employee had to take four weeks of unpaid vacation. They didn't have to take it consecutively, and they could take it whenever they wanted. Everybody from Secretary to CEO. And when Bob announced the programme to the company, he said, it's better we should all suffer a little than any of us should have to suffer a lot and morale went up. And what happens in well led organisations is when leadership demonstrates a care for us as human beings, the biological reaction to those conditions is we actually start caring for each other, much more. So in most organisations, when leadership cares more about numbers than us and will sacrifice our lives to meet some arbitrary projection, we hunker down and we become paranoid and so interested and mistrustful right. Well, something happened at Barry wehmiller that nobody expected and it wasn't part of the programme, which is people who could afford it more started trading with those who could afford it less. So some would take five weeks so that others only had to take three. In other words that people started taking care of each other. The recession, they got out of the recessionary times, the furlough programme has done away with they restored the 401k programme they had frozen, they actually back paid on 401 k from where they had frozen it. And good luck hiring any of those employees even if you offer them more money, they will not leave. And the productivity innovation and intensity of this organisation is absolutely unbelievable. And he completely went against what is considered standard on how we treat

how we fix problems.

mike parsons 53:51

Such a good case study. Oh yeah,

Chad Owen 53:53

the virality of that is what's so fascinating to me. In that

mike parsons 54:01

people, everyone became a leader. Everyone started. Well, let's try. Hey, hey, Chad, I need a few extra Have you can you give me some of your days? And that that's where you can set the conditions, right? That's total, a nurture, nurturing of leadership. It's not not just either in your bones. Yeah.

Chad Owen 54:22

And this is kind of answering my question that I posed to you a bit earlier about, why do we need to be great leaders? And why do we need to do it in this way? And I think it's because if we lead in this way, we create more leaders.

mike parsons 54:40

Yeah. And the burden is shared, because maybe you're having a rough day, but three or four other of the guys are on fire and they can feel that maybe you're tired, you need a break today. So they lean in for you. Like they're like, of course, because they'd lean in for me if I was feeling the same, and then it becomes this kind of giving intake and it's it's a it's a beautiful thing. And though you know where we see it is is you watch, let's go back to basketball. You just watched the Warriors play like they're in the NBA Finals at the moment without Kevin Durant. Now just to give you an example he Imagine if the Raptors didn't have kawhi Leonard it who would they be yet somehow? Yeah. The Warriors, I mean, literally add such a great example of a team riddled with injuries without their star player. And they're still in the lead. I mean, it is just, that's teamwork to be hard look at the old blacks. Now the great example where everyone lifts each other. And you just, you know, you look at you look at those great teams and you kind of like geez from start to finish. It's kind of impressive. And then the bench, oh my gosh, and look at how they chain and look at their youth programme. You're like oh my gosh.

Chad Owen 56:00

Yeah, I, it also kind of talks to this idea of often in business, you know, we feel like the stakes are so high and kind of the the margin of error is so small, that oftentimes we're, we're afraid of maybe some of the consequences if we don't get things, right. Yeah. And if we feel like the burden is all on us, then, you know, we retreat into our shells, and we don't share information and we, you know, we kind of hoard resources, right? Which, you know, can freeze an organisation and you know, stop innovation and just keep them from getting anything done. But as soon as you set the expectation from the top that no, I've got your back, I will be there I will be the first person to say yes to, you know, to step into the arena, as Teddy Roosevelt said in one of my favourite favourite quotes, that's when that sense of relief and almost a sense Safety kind of pervades the organisation that then allows people as you're saying like to take care of everyone else and then you just have everyone doing good for everyone else and in a way you don't have to tell people what to do because then they just start taking care of and supporting one another in their work. Yes,

mike parsons 57:19

yes. They take care of their colleagues. They take care of the partners the customers everyone you know it's it's like the Amazon saying like how on earth do you want to how on earth can you have happy customers if your customer support team or not? Right? It's just not gonna happen. I love the I love the little thing that cynic says yeah, good luck trying to hire someone from Bob Chapman's coming. Yeah, good luck with that. He's like, No chance. Yeah, no chance. But But what you can imagine and you used a key word there safety is this underlying platform of safety. And when those people feel safe, they will dare to do the right thing. They'll have the courage to take a step in the right direction. And we've actually got this great clip where Sinek actually breaks down how this works. So let's have a listen to Simon Sinek talking about how safety creates courage.

Simon Sinek 58:25

What I've learned is courage is not some deep, internal fortitude, like you don't dig down deep and find the courage. It actually is an external thing. That so when I got to meet people who risked their lives, I asked them, Why did you do it? You have a family, you have kids, no one would have faulted you. If you didn't do it, no one would have ordered you to do what you did. Why did you do it? They all get the same answer, because they would have done it for me. In other words, when we have the belief that someone has our backs, when we have the absolute certainty that someone cares about us and is there by our side and believes in us, we we actually are able to do extraordinary things. But without those relationships, it's very hard to muster courage. It's some some world famous trapeze artist is not going to try a brand new death defying act for the first time without a net. It's the net. It's that external thing that gives us the courage to do difficult things. In other words, it goes back to human relationships again. And so when we foster those relationships, when we foster the love and the community, we actually have the courage to do what you're saying we need to do. But when we don't when we when politicians and businessmen when we all feel lonely in our in positions of rank. I think that that actually hurts the ability to leave.

Chad Owen 59:41

Yeah, I couldn't, I couldn't help but think of the loneliest leader here in the States at the moment. I won't say his name. But yeah, it's so it's so apt, I wish he and the whole team when would read and embody this book. I think it would go a long ways. But, I mean, isn't it so evident in all of the stories of things gone wrong? It's often when that safety net has not been created.

mike parsons 1:00:09

Yeah. And I will just build on that and saying that safety is not only important just to function, but actually it's only when people truly feel comfortable and safe, that they will dare to do the impossible.

Chad Owen 1:00:23

Yeah. And, you know, don't, don't you and I often say that it's this, that it's this comfort and almost getting to know and befriending failure. Yeah. That's a prerequisite for doing much of the work that that these companies and these people would like to do.

mike parsons 1:00:42

Yeah. And I kind of have a thought here that I want to try on you chat and tell me what you think. I think like the construct in my mind of how we can do what you just asked, is to say look, failure is fine, not learning from failure. Yeah, now that's a problem. Like for me, almost, hey, you're doing some stuff and it's breaking. It's not working well, that's good because you're trying stuff and and you're, you're, you're making things happen. There's momentum, there's inspiration happening. Now, the key thing is if it didn't work, that is a huge opportunity to get closer to this point of innovation, because actually, now you've learned, well, that didn't work, but maybe this would. So I think that it's the real crime is not the failure, but the lack of learning from it.

Chad Owen 1:01:31

Yeah, in I mean, in some ways, you don't want to encourage failure, but at a certain point, it kind of becomes a numbers game. And it's, you know, the more failures you have, the quicker you'll get to success. You know, I'm just thinking kind of in a practical manner, what what would that look like or what does that mean? And in a way, it's is the leader saying to the team that's doing the hard work. Your mission isn't to achieve this impossible task and build this thing that's never been built before. Because you're setting them up for just complete failure in a way. It's, it's telling them to keep trying. Yeah. And every time you stumble and fall, I will be sure that I'm giving you support in the resources. And another chance Yeah. to, to learn as you're saying, and try it again. Yeah.

mike parsons 1:02:24

Because it's it's this really interesting thought that once you've tried a bunch of times, don't give up now, because you're going to be that much closer to actually getting on the other side and to succeeding. Like you've got too much invested to give up now. Yes. Oh, keep going. Keep going.

Chad Owen 1:02:42

Yeah, yeah. And I going back to your mention of the the NASA team that was visited by by Kennedy, you found a really fantastic clip that we'd like to end this show with. It's a bit long, so stick with us here because we'll bring it all together. Here. In the end, but it's a really beautiful clip, where he's explaining why some teams pulled together in the end.

Unknown Speaker 1:03:10

Why is this book called leaders eat flattest? While writing this book cynic gathered information from many different sources, one of which was the military. Sinek noted that when Marines were about to eat, the senior Marines would always step to the back of the line and let the junior Marines eat first. This simple example sums up the first key takeaway from this book, good leaders sacrifice their own comfort and curb their own survival instincts for the good of the team. They make others feel safe so that others can thrive. The second military example cites individuals who run towards danger to protect their team. When asked why would you run into active fire to save a fellow soldier? The response was unanimous because they would have done it for me. This example illustrates the second key takeaway from this book. Good leaders create an environment where extreme trust can exist. So now let's dive a little bit deeper early on cynic references and Aesop's fable tale of a lion roaming in a field of oxen. The oxygen when threatened would stand tail to tail so that the lion was always faced with horns. One day however, the oxygen began correlating among themselves, and each went off on their own. When alone the lion attacked and successfully made short work of all of the oxygen. This tale illustrates with cynic coins as the circle of safety. Look, there's danger all around us. This isn't new, it goes back to the beginning of time when humans would have to form small clans to fend off predators, but it still exists today. In the past, the alpha would get the first male and the first mate. But when danger presented itself, we expected the alpha to be the first one running towards it in today's world and in today's workforce, the concept of the circle of safety is incredibly important. The Alpha example that we just talked about, well, it still exists the alphas of the workplace. The leaders get the bigger paychecks and the nicer offices, but employees expect these leaders to protect them. The circle of safety today is comprised of the entire workplace. The core is leadership with these alphas and eventually extends to individual contributors. The primary glue that holds the circle together is trust, trust that the leaders will keep their employees safe cynic says leadership and self interest do not go together. So what happens when leaders don't keep employees best interests in mind, cortisol, a stress and anxiety producing chemical begins to spread through the workplace. All of a sudden, the trust that served is that glue, holding the circle of safety together, it disappears. You no longer have a creative team, you no longer have a productive team. Your team is now unable to perform So then how can you be a good leader the same way you can be? A good member of the community if I were to donate $100 to local nonprofit, let's say the food bank, you might say he's a good guy. But if I were to donate a full weekend of time volunteering to sort pack and distribute eels, you might say, he's a great guy. So back to the question of how to be a great leader Sinek says leaders give time and give energy. The thing is, they will never

Chad Owen 1:06:24

get back.

mike parsons 1:06:26

hoo ha the things they will never get back. Oh, that's that really is the essence isn't us. Chad. It really kind of ties it all together.

Chad Owen 1:06:38

Yeah. And it it really illustrates I love the, the fable of the oxen and the lion because really, it just takes one ox and not being there to create a hole for the for the line to get into the the circle of safety. And so I almost see leadership is kind of this chain where the leader At the beginning of that chain saying, I have your back, I will run into the fire. And in a way, almost everyone else kind of has to do that as well. So I'm in, if one part of your organisation isn't on board with that, and as not doing that, then it kind of puts everyone at risk.

mike parsons 1:07:23

Yeah, and, and this, this really does tie it all together. Because in the end of the day, we want to all thrive and do well be the best version of ourselves. And what what Sinek has laid out for us is create this circle of safety, create this place where every single individual is playing in the right position, and feels like that the people around them every single person would put themselves last so that they can the others can thrive and this this is such a powerful construct because rather than that Sort of highly competitive political snarky culture that pervades in some companies you can choose for. Now, we stand up for each other, we lift each other up. We always invest in time and energy, things that we'll never get back. Because indirectly we'll know that if we're all strong individually, we're stronger as as a company, as an organisation as a sports team. And I think that it's about calling ourselves out as to how leadership can get all wrong. It's just not in a title. It's in your deeds. And I think this is along with finding purpose and mission and vision, this second book, Chad, this is like challenged us all, to get a little bit more humble and take care of the people around us.

Chad Owen 1:08:53

Yeah, and I don't know if for me if it's humility as much as courage and I love this idea. Just increasing the courage of your entire organisation by creating this circle of safety for them to do that, because what going back to kind of like, you know how this might look for a team that's doing hard work, you just create that environment for them where it's okay for them to fail, and it's easy for them to pick up and try again. There's no extreme punitive consequences for that. Because what you're saying is you're your failure is not yours. It's it's mine to not create the right environment to give you the right resources to put the right team together. Like in my mind, that's how a leader really can embody this, this mindset.

mike parsons 1:09:43

So if you think about you read the book years ago, we've just done a full diagnostic a full deep dive on the show, Chad, Has anything changed for you? Or are there new themes or things that have come to mind that you've been reading reminded of having done the show and had this conversation together. Where does this leave you now? I feel challenged. I feel like I have to take up the mantle of this new form of of leadership. I think maybe a bit before as I was a bit too content too. Work on my own

Chad Owen 1:10:22

as a bit of a well, a freelancer,

mike parsons 1:10:26

the lone wolf the lone wolf.

Chad Owen 1:10:28

Yeah. And I think the disservice I was doing myself working in that way is not surrounding myself with people that would have my back. And so I think for me, it's really going to be leaning into developing the relationships with the people that I work closely with to let them know that I have their back so that when I do need their help, and I do need, you know them to be running out into the fray Yeah, I might be half that that. I have them. They're doing that because I showed them that I would do the same.

mike parsons 1:11:05

Yes, and and what it's all, all good, what goes around comes around like, if everyone is giving of themselves both directly and indirectly, things work out. You get a few lucky breaks, you get a few unexpected opportunities that all comes from this carriage. From this taking care of all of the people, your staff, your clients, your partners, take care of them all. And in a certain way, not only does CNET give us something that we can like a playbook for how we can behave at work. I think you could easily take this home with friends with family and apply a lot of these rules and thrive as well. Don't you think Chad? Yeah, I don't know how Simon turns these like seemingly business books into manuals for life But hey, you

Chad Owen 1:12:00

He does it.

mike parsons 1:12:02

In incredible now, we have covered a lot of ground so far we've done two of cynics books. I wanted to ask you, Chad, how has revisiting these set your frame of mind? And what are we expecting for our next shows because we not only will cover two more of his currently published books, but we're also going to cover yet to be published book where you add in in digesting your scenic wisdoms. And what are you hoping for the next three shows? Yeah,

Chad Owen 1:12:38

well, I don't often revisit business books, because I think you can, you can boil many of them down to just a couple of ideas. I think the richness of the way Simon delivers these ideas and these kinds of ways of life, if you will. It's just really powerful and impactful, and I like you. I'm very glad to be here. visiting them, you know, almost a decade later. I think for me, I am I'm very familiar with the two books that we've just covered start with why and leaders eat last unless familiar with the the following to that, that we're doing. And of course, I haven't read the book that is unreleased yet. But somehow through the interwebs, you've found a bit of a preview of much of that content in a in a talk that he's delivered. So I'd say I'm most excited about learning, learning from the infinite game. His his soon to be released

mike parsons 1:13:31

book. Yeah, and we have a little tease to our listeners, we have found a very recent talk he gave, where he really outlines the thinking inside of that. So we have a lot of inspiration there. But in the next show we're going to do together is better a little book of inspiration. And what's really neat about this book is I actually hadn't read it until we planned to do this show. But I now have it and it's a wonderful book. It It's a sort of metaphorical book. It's like a picture book. So it's a bit different in format, but it really focuses on why and how human personal relationships really matter. Because when you have those you can build bonds and get stuff done and enjoy life together. So this is a another wonderful book. It's a great book to give as a gift. And it's called together is better. A little book of inspiration. Another Simon Sinek episode is done chat own. What's next in your eye? Is this something you're going to do different tomorrow? Do you think as a result

Chad Owen 1:14:42

of this show? Hmm. I think I will be more. I'll be more intentional and not just more intentional, but I will try to verbalise my, my commitment to the people that I work Most directly with that I have their back, you know, so whether that's like, Hey, I know you're really working hard on this, like I'm here if you if you need some help and support to get that work done or, you know, just maybe to Yeah, just to be more to be more vocal about letting people know that, that I'm here for them, whether that's to have a conversation that needs to be had or to help do some work that needs to get done. That's that's what I'm taking away.

mike parsons 1:15:30

That is such a perfect way to wrap up the show. I concur. Indeed, Mr. Gatto, and what a wonderful journey into leadership and we've ticked off purpose. We've now got leadership in the next show with Simon Sinek. We're going to be getting into relationships and the bonds that bring people together. That will be the midpoint of our Simon Sinek series. I'm so grateful Chad to have this time to to revisit some of the most inspiring work that I've certainly ever read. I hope you have a very balmy spring evening in Brooklyn. Blitz it's the the Simon Sinek summer to get all alliterative. Well as you as you make your way from the island of Manhattan back to Brooklyn, you can glow in that Simon Sinek summer and I hope that all of our listeners have really enjoyed everything that we've talked about on the show today you can catch all the notes@moonshots.io and don't forget go into the iTunes podcast app and tell us all of your thoughts feelings and love for the show. Every time I say this, we get a couple more reviews and stars Chad was still I don't want to curse us here but I think was still a perfect five star rating in the in the podcasts library. Yep, we're up to 13 ratings and reviews five star average. Thank you to everyone. Let's get this to 20 people.

Chad Owen 1:17:09

Come on. Yeah. And don't forget, you can also just email us at hello@moonshots.io. Mike and I love hearing a show that has been inspiring to you or questions that you might have. send them our way

mike parsons 1:17:24

in the send away. We love some old school email. All right, Chad. Oh, and thank you to you. Thank you to our listeners. It has been wonderful to have you on this journey into leadership. We can't wait to have you on the next show. That's a wrap from the moonshots podcast.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai