Managing People

Hello members and subscribers! The tenth Moonshots Master episode is here and we are diving into Leadership and Managing People!

To get us inspired towards the topic of Managing People we start with the Moonshots Master himself, Simon Sinek, who tells us about his first job after college, and the importance of empathy. We then hear from motivational powerhouse, Tony Robbins, who suggests that in order to lead - rather than manage - you need to be able to read your team first. The Apple leader, Steve Jobs, then discusses what made Apple so good at managing people, and how you have to be run by ideas not hierarchy.

Now we start framing the concept of Managing People in order to fully understand ways of approaching it. We learn from Seth Godin that leaders must take responsibility, and inspire teams without using fear. Author and personal development trainer Brendon Burchard encourages us to be patient, and keep humanity the focus of collaboration and management, even when dealing with frustrating people. Simon Sinek closes this section by breaking down the meaning behind ‘Leaders Eat Last’.

In our adoption section, we hear techniques that help us reframe our approaches to managing people. MindToolsVideos breakdown and explain the GROW model. Closing the Master Series show we hear from Simon Sinek once more, as he explains how to build relationships that inspire change, and how mentorship is like friendship.

Our reading list is full of online courses, advice and frameworks to improve your approach to managing people:

• Managing People Masterclass, BottomUp.io

• Simon Sinek, Leaders Eat Last: Why Some Teams Pull Together and Others Don't

• Tony Robbins, Awaken the Giant Within

• Six HR Leadership Lessons We Learned From Steve Jobs

• The Real Leadership Lessons of Steve Jobs

• Dan Heath, Switch: How to change things when change is hard

• Seth Godin, The Icarus Deception: How High Will You Fly?

• Brendon Burchard, High Performance Habits: How Extraordinary People Become That Way

• Jim McCormick, The First-Time Manager

• Coaching with the GROW Model

• If You're Not Using OKRs for Quarterly Planning, Stop and Read This

• Simon Sinek, Together is Better: A Little Book of Inspiration

What key lesson are you taking from this Master Series show? Get in touch and let us know! Thanks for listening. That’s a wrap.

TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Mike Parsons: hello and welcome to the moonshots master series. It's episode 10 I'm your co-host Mike Parsons. And as always I'm joined by the man with a plan himself. Mr. Mark Pearson Freeland. Good morning, mark. A good morning, 

[00:00:13] Mark Pearson Freeland: Mike, what an episode ten one zero, a big moment to celebrate within the master series that we're bringing to our members and subscribers today.

[00:00:23] Mike Parsons: My eye is so good for us to come together, exclusively for our members, mark. And to talk about a topic well, that I would say is not talked about nearly enough. It's really 

[00:00:35] Mark Pearson Freeland: not. As we're finding in the master series, there are so many areas that we can learn from and educate ourselves that perhaps you're not really introduced in a more format or formal way throughout your career and upbringing and going to school.

[00:00:51] And so on. And today, Mike is no exception. We are digging into a leadership topic of managing people, perhaps one of the most [00:01:00] important skills that you can have when you're thinking about being a leader within a business. 

[00:01:04] Mike Parsons: Yeah. And the funny thing is that so many of the problems we encounter and what.

[00:01:10] In the end are people issues. And it's ironic how little companies allocate time to train, learn, improve how we manage people yet. So much of our problems come back to managing people. And I feel like today is a chance for us to dig into some, all time classic thinkers, the cynics, the Tony Robbins, the Steve jobs.

[00:01:39] Oh my gosh, Mike, we even have somebody we need to dedicate more time to, which is Seth Goden. We've got some new moonshots superstars. One of those being Brendan Bouchard. So there's so much inside of this topic. We're going to go across quite a lot of territory as well. We're going to do a bit of [00:02:00] inspiration, and then after we do a bit of inspiration on a master series, where do we tend to go after. 

[00:02:05] Mark Pearson Freeland: We then get into the real details about understanding the value of what being a good manager of people really is. And like you say, we're going to get into Burchard with golden and Sineck, we've got a great reading list to go along with each of these parts, but Mike, it doesn't even stop there.

[00:02:22] Does it, because part three is really where we get into how to make a difference. Day-to-day. Yeah. And I think 

[00:02:29] Mike Parsons: so much of being better as an individual be at home or in the office, or I think in 2022, those things might be the same place. So when you're working, when you're living life and trying to be the best version of yourself putting things into practice, building the habits of working well with people regardless of the nature of the relationship top-down bottom-up left to, right?

[00:02:56] It doesn't matter. At some point we're always finding ourselves [00:03:00] as the leader other times where a team member this show is for all of us. This is for everyone who wants to be better at working with people, managing people, working for people. Just it's all good people stuff in this show today, isn't it?

[00:03:15] Mark Pearson Freeland: Yeah. It's a real comprehensive look at this pretty big topic of managing people, which like we say is not something that we will get taught from day one and invariably, throughout most of our careers, there are going to be times where perhaps. Maybe not always, but perhaps you're working with an individual when you think, oh, you know what, they could be managing this a little bit better.

[00:03:36] Maybe they'd been thrust into that limelight maybe a little bit too quick. Maybe they need to benefit from a little bit of education. So for all of our members and subscribers, I think what you and I might both invite our listeners today is to absorb all of these different tips, tricks, frameworks, pieces of inspiration, and therefore go out and try and be that best version of 

[00:03:56] Mike Parsons: ourselves.

[00:03:58] And I tell you what if life is a [00:04:00] team sport moonshots as a team spot too, isn't it. Yeah, 

[00:04:04] Mark Pearson Freeland: we have so many moonshot is maybe we should call them astronauts. I'm not sure there's so many members and subscribers who are joining you and I and the moonshots team every single week. So as duty calls, I'm going to do a quick round the table introduction and welcome to all of our members on patron and Diana, please.

[00:04:23] Welcome Bob Niles, John and Terry Nial marshaling, Ken DMR, Tom mark, modular and Connor Rodrigo Yasmeen, Daniella I'm only halfway through Liza asked Mr. Bombed, Maria, Paul Berg, Kalman and net, and our brand new members of David, Joe, crystal Ivo, Christian, and hurricane. Parrain I'm glad we're getting some new funky members, particularly those with funky names.

[00:04:52] Mike Parsons: I tell you what Mr. Bonzoo you must be feeling so sad that he's been surpassed by, hurricane brain. Oh my gosh. It brings [00:05:00] such a vivid such a rich picture to mine. I hope we can unleash the hurricane brains in all of us and maybe bring a little peace tranquility insights to those who are looking to nurture their brains.

[00:05:16] So here we are, this is the managing people, moonshot master series. We are ready to rock and roll. 

[00:05:26] Mark Pearson Freeland: Yep. That's right, Mike. So now let's hear from our first clip, Simon Sinek, a moonshots master individual. If I can say so myself who really helps inspire you and I, our members and our subscribers into thinking how not to manage people.

[00:05:42] My 

[00:05:42] Simon Sinek: first job out of college, I had a boss who believed it was appropriate to berate people, to get the most out of them. And I remember this is a true story. I actually sat down with her. We used to have these sort of monthly career updates, and she literally said to me, you have no. Quote unquote.

[00:05:59] And I [00:06:00] went none and she said, none, and the good news was, I thought that was funny. Cause you none, if you told me I only could do one thing that actually probably would have hurt more, but nothing, nothing. And so I really paid attention as to how she managed and the rest of my career did the complete opposite.

[00:06:15] So yeah. Give me an example. I, I think that pointing out people's strengths is a lot better than telling them they have no talent. Also she had this belief that if you don't look harried and insane, then you might, then you're not working hard. So I remember pretending that I was like stressed out because if I saw her down the hallway and said hi to people, she thought I was doing nothing.

[00:06:35] So I started pretending it was like, I can't talk, I can't talk. And that way she thought I was very busy and she left me alone. Yeah. Honesty in management, treating people with respect, being honest about what they can and can't do and committing yourself to helping people not hurting people or pushing them down has been more effective for me sometimes at work.

[00:06:53] Mike Parsons: It's not what's happening at work for a lot of stressed out managers, especially it's what's happening [00:07:00] outside of work. How do you try to figure out where the sources of the issue maybe to cut past some of the challenges you face 

[00:07:07] Mark Pearson Freeland: communicating? 

[00:07:08] Simon Sinek: When I was entry-level having empathy for my boss didn't factor in, not knowing anything about my place in the company, et cetera, but as I've grown up I realized that the only motivation for any kind of confrontation whether you're the one who's confronting someone, because you.

[00:07:22] Feel that they have done something wrong or whether you're confronting them because you feel that you've been wronged. The only motivation is empathy. And so even if someone has, is coming down on me hard or being unreasonable or being, I've I'm not perfect at it, but I've worked really hard to approach it with you, confronting them that they've hurt me or I feel wronged but immediately go into the, considering that maybe there's something that's bothering them.

[00:07:46] And that has been proved to be really helpful. And we do it in life. For example, somebody sitting next to you on the subway is, slouch back their legs open. And your immediate sort of reaction is to think what an ass, but the idea of practicing and [00:08:00] say maybe had a hard day last like yesterday and he's exhausted and he just doesn't want to deal.

[00:08:04] Maybe he doesn't want to talk to people, and so to really just have empathy for the world around you. It's it's powerful and people respond to you a lot better as well, because basically everybody wants to feel safe. And so if you have empathy you, you give that to people up or down the chain of command.

[00:08:19] We, as employees want to feel safe. There's our bosses responsibility to give us that. But at the same time, Bosses want to feel safe. They don't want to feel that there's insurrection, that's brewing. And and for us to let them know that we've got their back as much as we want them to let us know that they have ours is equally as important.

[00:08:37] And I, I believe there is responsibility of a manager, but there's a responsibility of an employee as well. It's like the kids have to do chores at home. That's the kind of same thing. It's we all, it takes all of us. The hierarchy doesn't mean that only the guys above are the ones with responsibility.

[00:08:51] We will have to contribute. 

[00:08:53] Mike Parsons: I like that idea that it's not just the manager that has the responsibility to the person that reports to [00:09:00] them. I think it's like a two, two way empathy situation. I really that for me really starts to almost give us some of the answers, but let's just go back.

[00:09:11] What manager would tell someone, by the way it was Simon Sinek, the kind of talented kind of guy. Who would tell someone who would dare say to anybody you do not have. Any talent. Is this such a vindictive statement to make towards anyone? Might I find that shocking? 

[00:09:34] Mark Pearson Freeland: Don't you? It shows a lack of consideration, but also I guess a lack of insight into an individual.

[00:09:42] And I think that's something that we're going to find that we delve into a lot in today's master series, which is in order to manage people you need to have as Simon Sinek calls out empathy for them, as well as an understanding that people are people and that sometimes they need to be motivated [00:10:00] or inspired or help to them 

[00:10:02] Mike Parsons: that way.

[00:10:02] Yeah. So something that I found very helpful in my career is particularly when managing challenging people is to be almost like a Buddhist monk about it, which is you have to believe fundamentally that everyone has a form of. It's a bit of a proxy, do you believe in humanity? Really? And here's how it goes.

[00:10:28] I truly think. And I truly believe that everybody has talent that resides within them. And I think that the job of a manager is to find out what that is and to see if that matches to the work that you're doing together and then channel that energy into that place. And sometimes that results in us saying, Hey, I think you're amazing, but the kind of thing we do, doesn't create the right opportunities for you.

[00:10:59] So we [00:11:00] need to find you something that is outside of this business, and that's a better way or a nicer way and a more powerful way of saying, Hey, you're not a good fit for this place, but it doesn't have to be done in judgment. It would be like, and here's what I'm going to do to help you go find that.

[00:11:16] That is such an interesting way to position yourself as a manager, which is I know there's good in this person. I just got to go find it. Maybe we can give them the forum to apply that talent. Maybe we don't have the right forum. And in that case, I'll go find it for them and pay it forward a little bit.

[00:11:36] I don't know, Matt, how's that sound to you as if Simon Sinek told us a story of how not to manage people? I think where he's going is very much find the talent in everybody. 

[00:11:44] Mark Pearson Freeland: I think what stands out to me in what's the next saying there is in order to manage people you need to start with yourself.

[00:11:53] So you need to, as he calls out, have discipline to not immediately cast judgment on an [00:12:00] individual and much like you were saying, Mike, in order to find that talent, that's probably innately within every single person. You need to have almost the patients and the four within yourself to look for it, or maybe to foster it or put a little bit of kindling under that fire in order to bring that talent out in the person.

[00:12:18] And I think. It's very true, even with my career. And I'm sure with your career as well, it's sometimes too easy to fall into a habit of thinking, oh that person's a bit lazy or that person's not very good. And that's obviously not particularly helpful because you're there for not necessarily going to maybe delegate work to them, or you're going to be a little bit adverse to the results perhaps that they give you back.

[00:12:43] I'd like, what's the next saying here, which is make sure to be disciplined in your approach to collaborating with that individual. Because once you do find that talent, that's perhaps within them, There therefore going to be a much better individual teammate. Your relationship is going to be better with them [00:13:00] and fundamentally that boss or the manager or the leader is going to feel safer because that person has then come to the forefront without a little bit of talent to that, a little bit of good behavior.

[00:13:11] And I think it really does as Simon Sinek calls out in that first clip, it's all about just having empathy for the other individual so that we can go out and find that little bit of talent that's innately within them. 

[00:13:22] Mike Parsons: Yeah, I totally agree. And it's really, there's a bit of a twist in even the title of the show that's deliberate here, which is we say managing people because that's often the phrase used in the office, but what we're discovering is from Simon Sinek, how not to do it, but what we're going to hear now from Tony Robbins is maybe the verb of managing can be better replace with leading.

[00:13:48] So let's discover how to keep taking a new view towards people and your interactions. Let's have a listen to the master himself, Mr. Tony Robbins. 

[00:13:59] Tony Robbins: I [00:14:00] really believe in order to influence people, you got to know what already influences them. The mistake that we make is we don't connect enough to figure out who this person is.

[00:14:08] And what most of us do is try to lead other people by influencing them the way we'd be influenced. They try to influence their kid to clean the room the way that would make you do it. But even though they're your kid, they're different than you. And so they're going to do it for a different set of reasons than what you would do it for you.

[00:14:22] Might've done it because someone told you to, but your kid's going to tell them all day long. That's not it. There has to be something else. It's a sense of freedom they get from it, or a sense of masters, something that's going to move them. So I always say they're there to fix. Then insolence everyone. If you want to be a leader, you have to know how to change other people's states, a person isn't a no state, a person's in an angry state of persons in a frustrated state.

[00:14:45] You'd have to be able to influence their state because if you change their state, you're going to change the result they get. But the second thing you have to understand is what are people's blueprints, my shorthand for what are the values? What do they believe? What do they fear? I always say to people that life is found in the [00:15:00] dance between what you desire most and what you fear most.

[00:15:03] If I want to lead you and support you, I got to know your goals, your desires. I got to know what you're scared about, what you're fearful about, what stresses you out. And if I understand that I can communicate in a way that will inspire you to maximize not only when I'm here, that's management leadership is I'm gone and you've raised your own standard and you're going to continue to perform at a higher rate.

[00:15:21] Mark Pearson Freeland: This is really interesting. Now, Mike, isn't it, we've got inspired around that at empathy piece for other people, but where Tony Robbins is now taking us is really understanding your direct report or the person below you in a very intrinsic way, understanding what really influences them, inspires them, and therefore motivates them to do a good job.

[00:15:43] You need to know them fundamentally. 

[00:15:46] Mike Parsons: Yeah. And it's funny because what he's really saying is like understanding what's motivating them and got them what gets them going. And when I think in particular, what he's suggesting is when they're feeling frustrated or a bit off track, [00:16:00] be capable of bringing them back to their mission, getting them back on track, but in a way, he mentioned some key words, like freedom there.

[00:16:10] So I think it's all about reminding someone that you're working with. And I think it can be both ways, again, picking up on that Simon Sinek thing. It doesn't necessarily have to be this command and control situation where you are wrong. Get yourself back in order. I think it's here's what you're trying to do.

[00:16:30] I want to remind you of what you're all about. I don't want you to see that where you're you are right now, you're not in the best place to achieve that. So how might you get yourself back on track to what matters to you? I think that kind of discussion is the sort of freedom. It's the empowerment it's getting to those core motivators.

[00:16:53] And it's not so much about, wrapping them on the Narcos saying you did wrong, or you stuffed that [00:17:00] up. But rather bringing them back to this, to their personal mission, what's really driving them, getting them out of bed in the morning and just illustrating to them that they're not on track to hit that, to achieve that and ask, how might you get yourself back?

[00:17:17] Track. I feel that's really where Tony's taking us. 

[00:17:20] Mark Pearson Freeland: I think already, what's really interesting about this topic of managing people. That's standing out to me and we've only heard from two clips, Mike with snack and Tony Robbins is that you aren't just there to lead the team to get results.

[00:17:36] Therefore, to look good in front of your own boss, if you are a manager of people, instead, it's your responsibility to really focus on nurturing those individuals to be the best, essentially the best versions of themselves. What a moonshot topic that is, right? Yeah. But it's really about understanding people.

[00:17:55] It's understanding those people. It's seeing what needs to be in place in [00:18:00] order to drive them, to motivate them. And I think it's really fascinating when we do think about the role of a manager of people. It feels perhaps a little bit. Practical when the truth is it's a lot more emotive, emotional and personal.

[00:18:16] And I think a lot of us are attribute to those managers that perhaps we've worked with in our careers. 

[00:18:22] Mike Parsons: Yeah. And I think for a lot of us, when we reflect on some of the challenges we've had with people is perhaps that we haven't really had a sense of what motivates them. We haven't really understood what Tony Robbins was saying is what is their blueprint?

[00:18:35] What what gets them out of bed. So it becomes really hard to get them performing in the right way, because you're not speaking to those motivators. And I tell you somebody who actually was quite notorious for being rude and abrasive, but if you study him, he changed how he led significantly over [00:19:00] his career was none other than Steve Jobs.

[00:19:02] What he discovered is this command and control didn't really work. And he was, he's popularized as being quite a tyrant, but that was really the early stage of his career. And even today, so much of apple success is. Steve jobs. And what he really learned as a manager was to actually really create a sense of inspiration, a sense of space and freedom to be the best version of yourself.

[00:19:38] It's really interesting, isn't it, man, because those notorious stories of him firing people and meetings being very abrasive he's famous for those things, right? 

[00:19:48] Mark Pearson Freeland: Yeah. Yeah. He's very famous for throwing as far as I'm aware packaging around the room when he wants to get that perfect unboxing experience.

[00:19:56] Mike Parsons: Yeah. He's famous for that, but actually. What is less [00:20:00] commonly understood is that towards the last decade. And when these amazing things called the iPhone, the iPad, et cetera, et cetera, the things that, that, the watch, all of these things came from that last chapter of his leadership.

[00:20:15] And what we're about to hear now from Steve Jobs, it was all about two things, collaboration and trust. One of the 

[00:20:25] Steve Jobs: keys to apple is Apple's an incredibly collaborative company. And you know how many committees we have at apple? No zero. We have no committees, no committee. We are a very, we are organized like a startup one.

[00:20:44] Person's in charge of iPhoto S software, one person's in charge of Mac. One person's in charge of iPhone hardware engineering, another person's in charge of worldwide marketing. Another person's in charge of operations. [00:21:00] It's, we're organized like a startup. We're the biggest startup on the planet. And we all meet for three hours once a week.

[00:21:10] And we talk about everything we're doing the whole business, and there's tremendous teamwork at the top of the company, which filters down to tremendous teamwork throughout the company. And teamwork is dependent on trusting the other folks to come through with their part, without watching them all the time, but trusting that they're going to come through with their parts.

[00:21:32] And that's what we do really well. And we're great at figuring out how to divide things up into these great teams that we have and all work on the same thing, touch bases frequently, and bring it all together into a product. We do that really. And so what I do all day is meet with teams of people and work on ideas and solve problems to [00:22:00] make new products, to make new marketing programs, whatever it is.

[00:22:03] Are people willing to tell you're wrong? 

[00:22:05] Mark Pearson Freeland: Yeah. Other than 

[00:22:07] Steve Jobs: snarky journalists, people that are working. Yeah, no, we have wonderful arguments. And do you win them all or, oh no. I wish I did. I'll see you can't if you want to hire great people and have them stay working for you, you have to let them make a lot of decisions and you have to be run by ideas, not hierarchy, the best ideas have to win.

[00:22:32] Otherwise good people don't stay. What's your must be more than a facilitator who runs meetings. You obviously contribute your own. I contribute ideas. Sure. Why would I be there if I didn't.

[00:22:42] Mike Parsons: They're run by ideas, mark. Ah, 

[00:22:46] Mark Pearson Freeland: I love those cornerstones of that. Steve jobs is calling out there. This idea of trust, alignment, communication, the fact that he can drop in and provide a little bit of maybe [00:23:00] idea ideation, specifically, not a negative feedback and trying to take the helm of the ship, having those different leaders, leading the different teams and the different line items and the different products.

[00:23:13] You can only imagine how many avenues within the business there must have been when Steve jobs is referring to here, but isn't it fun to just hear him talk about providing bit of feedback, people getting challenged and him not let's say. Ruling with an iron fist. Yeah. 

[00:23:32] Mike Parsons: And that was so how the industrial age was run by this perception of these Titans at the top driving commanding, forcing things forward.

[00:23:45] But the reality is we live in an ideas economy. The reality is that people create the ideas and they have to have the freedom to create those ideas. Because if you've created the idea, you're going to be pretty damn excited about [00:24:00] doing that idea. And if it helps you helps the business helps your businesses, customers, then everybody's winning.

[00:24:06] I think it was an interesting point, mark, where he says listen, if I don't let people run the business, why would they stay. 

[00:24:15] Mark Pearson Freeland: Yeah it speaks again to what Tony Robbins was referring to with regards to the state that people are in the blueprints of values and fears. Essentially Steve jobs is saying they're in the company because they feel they have something to contribute.

[00:24:29] They're making products that they care about. Likewise, in that first clip that we heard from some scenarios around empathy for the individual, I think Steve jobs is bringing us home at the end of this part of the show, Mike, which is to say each individual has one. They are bringing to the table.

[00:24:47] And when you are in a position of management of managing people, your role is not necessarily to sit at the end of the long table and tell every single person what they should and shouldn't be doing instead, your role is to try [00:25:00] and nurture, encourage, motivate those different avenues. There's different gears and cogs within the company to do the best things that they can do, because the effect that ladders up to is success for the old, the whole corporation.

[00:25:14] Mike Parsons: I, yeah, and I think the odd here is. Something that we're covering is it started with Seneca. He said, you must have empathy for the people around you. And I think from that's where you understand them, that builds very nicely into Tony Robbins idea that, you really are on a job. If you want to influence the way in which someone works, you need to understand them.

[00:25:36] And I think that understanding should be the intersection between what's motivating the individual and what motivates the business, the organization, and then give them the space and the trust to make some decisions, collaborate with them in the search of the best ideas Steve jobs would say, do those things.

[00:25:54] And remember, you've got Steve Jobs who is sitting there saying it is [00:26:00] not about command and control. It's about collaboration and trust. And I just want you to, for a moment, Entertain the success of apple as a business. So we all know how influential he was as the founder and CEO to create those products and by proxy to create the success.

[00:26:23] So I'm almost saying to you, mark, this is my argument. If the founder of one of the biggest company on the planet, they're the highest valued companies on the planet is saying, it's all about the ideas. It's not about hierarchy. It's not about command and control, but collaboration and trust. The success of apple is the living proof of this.

[00:26:49] Forget the fact that Steve is no longer with us. Look at it's six assess the trillion dollar [00:27:00] company is the result. In part of this idea that it is built around collaboration and trust. 

[00:27:10] Mark Pearson Freeland: I totally agree. And 

[00:27:12] Mike Parsons: we can't argue. Can we, no, you can't, it's a rip roaring success for decades now.

[00:27:17] Other companies. Yeah. Other companies have come and gone at Amazon, Netflix, all of these companies, you can argue, they've had some good runs, but none has stayed at the top for as long in recent times as apple. Think about it. Microsoft was huge in the eighties, in the nineties, they're doing pretty well.

[00:27:40] Are they really leading in the same way? Apple is? No, you might even say Amazon, maybe they're just a little bit off fifth gear these days. Maybe they're still enforced, still doing good, but if you want to see the success of. You just go and study their profitability [00:28:00] versus the others in their market.

[00:28:02] And there is nobody that makes margin on their handsets for mobile devices like apple, Hey, Google, you go sell a gazillion more units than us of Android, but you're not making any money on them. We, on the other hand, we'll have the most profitable devices. They're their success almost forces you to entertain that this perhaps is the right way to manage people.

[00:28:25] Mark Pearson Freeland: Exactly. We've heard from Simon Sinek, Tony Robbins, and then Steve jobs. And I think Mike that's really set us up for this whole master series show on managing people. I'm feeling pretty inspired right now. 

[00:28:41] Mike Parsons: Yeah. I think what we've hopefully done is helped you see, we've broken the ice on managing people.

[00:28:48] We've revealed that there's a new way. And with a new way, there are new things to understand and what you do what you don't do. There's almost a science to it. Isn't there mark this [00:29:00] new way of managing and working with. Yeah, 

[00:29:03] Mark Pearson Freeland: it almost is like a little bit of a formula and much like we do on our, on the moonshot show, as well as the master series is try to break down those pieces of DNA, the cornerstones and the pillars, Mike, in order to find what that, that formula is.

[00:29:18] And I think managing people, again, it's not a skill that we're necessarily taught within our careers or during school or university or college, but fundamentally once you understand those different pieces and how they ladder up towards a trillion dollar or $2 trillion business, like apple, you start to understand the value of being able to manage people efficiently is really all about.

[00:29:42] Mike Parsons: Yeah. Yes. I would agree. Now if you're enjoying this little podcast, For our members, then I think it's essential that I would say a big part of enjoying the listening experience is going to be following [00:30:00] along with the show notes, mark. And where does one find the show notes to this wonderful show? 

[00:30:06] Mark Pearson Freeland: All of our members subscribers, you can pop along to moonshots.io, where you can find it.

[00:30:11] All of our weekly shows as well as the second order, thinking documents, finding your purpose, all of the shows that we've put up for you, our members and subscribers can all be accessed via moonshots.io. You can follow the links and access, not only our clip lists, but also our reading lists, our transcripts and our frameworks that we dig into in each of our master series episodes.

[00:30:39] So pop along to moonshots.io and find a wealth of information to live alongside these comprehensive, deep dives that we do on the master series. 

[00:30:50] Mike Parsons: Yeah. And that ashes in the second part of this master series, which is a really all about going deeper. And this is really [00:31:00] to where better, than to start than fear.

[00:31:03] That's right. That is such a big motivator for us in understanding how we work, how we go out into our day to day. Is it fear? Is it hope it's always a trade off between one of the two and to talk about this topic and to help us understand how to manage people better as none other than Seth Goden.

[00:31:19] And he's going to illustrate to us what good managers don't use. 

[00:31:25] Seth Godin: There are two things you need to know about hockey. The first one is to be good at hockey. You need to know what to do next. You need to figure out where the puck is going. You need to be smart. I confess I was good at that, but the second thing much to my dad's chagrin, he was coach.

[00:31:39] The second thing is you gotta be willing to get. That hockey doesn't work. If every time someone else is going for the Paki runaway, I was, that was me, right? The point is leadership is similar. That's why I began with this idea of being wrong and leading of taking responsibility, [00:32:00] because you're gonna get hit.

[00:32:01] If you don't care enough to get hit, you can't be a leader management on the other hand has constantly drilled into you three emotions, because that's how it controls you beginning in first grade, fear, shame and anger that managers use fear, shame, and anger to get you to do what they want you to do. And we don't have to live that way anymore.

[00:32:27] We've been brainwashed to live that way, but it's not required. And in fact, it's essential for the future of this nation, this economy, this world that we figure out how to lead in. So I said, brainwashed, I don't take it lightly. How many of you heard the story of Icarus and Daedalus everyone, right? You banished to a desert island by the gods to live out their lives, but Daedalus is an inventor.

[00:32:52] He gets a bunch of feathers. He fashioned them into wings. He puts them on the back of Icarus with wax. He says, my son we're [00:33:00] flying out of here, but don't fly too high. Don't disobey your father. Do what you are told because if you fly too high, the wax will melt and you will surely perish. And we all know the punchline.

[00:33:13] Icarus gets uppity. Icarus has uberous Icarus, this obeys management flies too high and dies, except that wasn't the story in 1700 or 1500 or 1200 or for a thousand years before that they changed it. You can look it up. I'm not making this up. They changed it. The original story was just like that. And it had one more sentence that the.

[00:33:40] But more important. My son said, Daedalus, don't fly too low because if you fly too low, the water and the mist will weigh down your wings and you will surely perish. And we are guilty of flying too low. We are [00:34:00] flying too low because we believed the managers. We believe the industrialists. We think it's not our turn.

[00:34:07] And we are afraid. We are afraid to bring our humanity and our excellence to work, 

[00:34:14] Mark Pearson Freeland: avoid fear, shame, and anger, those cornerstones, perhaps of traditional management lessons. Mike, that story of Daedalus and Icarus. I have to confess, I did not know that until we got into 

[00:34:28] Mike Parsons: this show the end. No, myself.

[00:34:30] And if, talk about what a reveal, like just one line. Changed everything because it's, don't fly too close to the sun or too low. And then you're like, Ooh, because that really is the, I guess it speaks to so much of the challenge that we encountered, we want to dream big, but that in with that comes risk.

[00:34:58] But what the real [00:35:00] twist of all of this is that if you just sit there and port along, that is also a path to. I think at the emptiness, we all know those moments when we realize we've been taking it a little too easy and not challenging ourselves. That's why, what comes to my mind is, when a friend says, oh, I just really want to do something new.

[00:35:24] I really want to, I want a new challenge, right? That means you haven't been learning and growing enough. And you're desperate to take upon an adventure and search out maybe some challenge, to grow yourself. And I think it's so much about navigating those two positions being too conservative or on the other hand being so bold that you get yourself into trouble.

[00:35:48] And it's just all about using your own judgment. And I think what. Really is access point here is that traditional [00:36:00] management has been using this approach of almost locking people down with fear and guilt and all of this, just do what the boss says. And it's so interesting how that dovetails into sort of what Tony Robbins spoke about, which is the search of freedom or autonomy that so many of us have and the job of the manager, the job of the pier is to help people find that.

[00:36:28] I think that's where this is all going 

[00:36:30] Mark Pearson Freeland: again. Yeah, I totally agree. I'm finding, Seth's click that. We've just heard that really reinforcing the ideas that we were hearing as well from Steve jobs and some snack in that first part of the show as well, really encouraging us to avoid the let's say the.

[00:36:49] Easy, easy answer solution. We've probably all worked with colleagues or other companies and partners who on the sidelines, maybe just nodding along or afraid [00:37:00] to ask the big questions of their bosses or their individuals who are managing them because it's a simpler life. And I think what's really interesting as we do consider this topic, that to be that good manager of people, you need to be considerate and disciplined with yourself in order to.

[00:37:21] And allow your individuals below you to come up and ask you questions, to feel comfortable, confident, comfortable, and trusting enough to then raise their hand and say, Hey I'm not gonna give you any shame. I'm not going to be angry at you for coming up with new ideas, new ways of thinking. I think it's just a really interesting new.

[00:37:40] When we think about managing people, the types of lessons and ways of thinking that we need to apply in order to get the most out of our colleagues. 

[00:37:48] Mike Parsons: And the truth really is here is that it's not always easy. And in fact it's very easy for us to sit here and pontificate about how not to use fear and how to be [00:38:00] just, super coach 2022 of the year and all this sort of stuff.

[00:38:05] But the reality is. There are hard situations. There are reality is that there are difficult people to work with it. The reality is that there is tension and politics, and a lot of emotion in the workplace. And someone who's new to the moonshots podcast is Brendan Burchard. And he has got some interesting thinking and let's really tune in now to the hard yards of how to deal with frustrating.

[00:38:36] Brendon Burchard: Keep your perspective as being a champion of humanity. What I mean by that? You know what happens oftentimes when we're frustrated with other people is we've lost our connection with humanity in some way or another, we're in a big hurry and we've forgotten that people have stories and realities that we do not know about.

[00:38:55] You don't know what is going on in somebody's day when they just pissed you [00:39:00] off. They just did something and you think, oh they're like this, or they're going like this. You don't know. Maybe you had a coworker who was supposed to deliver something in the morning and they didn't deliver.

[00:39:08] Now you're fired up and you're frustrated about them, but you didn't know that, oh, their child woke up in the morning. It was throwing up a whole morning and they haven't slept in the last nine hours. Sometimes you don't know that somebody had a death in the family. Sometimes you don't know somebody on their way to work.

[00:39:26] Got some terrible news. Sometimes you don't know the real challenge and frustrations people are dealing with at their home, at their, in their regular life with their family. You don't know, you don't know if this person who you're so angry with you'd feel like God, I just wish I could punch him in the face.

[00:39:43] I'm so mad at them. You don't know that they're a victim of domestic violence at home. See, we make all these assumptions about people they're just so stupid or that there's something wrong with them. And we never know their real story. And as soon as you lose your patience with people, you lose your connection.

[00:39:59] With [00:40:00] humanity, you lose that, understanding that you know, what stuff happens in people's lives. And maybe right now they've had a lot of chaos and your life is going along smooth, or maybe you're having a lot of chaos and all of a sudden your chaos and your smoothness or whatever it interacts. And it feels like it's gonna explode in this great amount of frustration and you forget, oh gosh, people have things going on.

[00:40:21] As busy as stress filled as you are. Other people have that too, as freaked out as a heavy plate of responsibilities, as you have other people have that too. And if you don't believe that, then you've gotten to a place where you've allowed your intellect to grow your ego, to such a level that you can't connect with humanity anymore.

[00:40:42] And I know that sounds flippant to say, but what happens for so many people. He is, they do they're there, especially folks who are quote unquote intellectuals, right? People who feel like they're very evolved, enlightened supremely conscious. What ends up happening for them is sometimes they have lost that real connection with humanity because they think they're so [00:41:00] special versus other people.

[00:41:01] And here's the, ultimately the challenge with folks who do have an ego like that, or who do feel so much more supremely special than other people that other people, they just don't understand how much the frustrating meat they become very caged in their life. It's like watching an animal that is cage that gets resigned because it's been wild and free at some point.

[00:41:20] And now it's resigned in the back of the cage, curled up angry and frustrated, pointing at people. They don't understand me. They don't understand me. They don't understand me. And the folks who often say other people don't understand me are the same people who rarely ever raise their hand and ask for help.

[00:41:39] They're the folks who easily get frustrated, annoyed, or resigned from other people. And now when they need help or when they want to progress their life, because they've drawn away from people who they believe to be stupid, because they've drawn away from others who they believe. Other people can understand them because they believe other people can't understand them.

[00:41:57] They don't ask for help. [00:42:00] They don't collaborate. They don't socialize. They don't create the very influence relationships and networks that is necessary for them to grow to the next level in their life and in their business. So you have to think about that for a moment. Have you gotten so disconnected from other people that you're often frustrated with them because you forgot, you don't understand their story and you don't know what they're going through.

[00:42:25] Just like you're frustrated you're and you're saying they don't know what I'm going through. Everybody else feels. Once you understand that real, the reality of humanity is it's a bunch of human beings walking around with a sign at the top of their head that says, please understand me, please be patient with me.

[00:42:43] Please help. Then you stop getting so frustrated with people and you realize that we're all struggling. We're all doing the best that we can. We all have big dreams and goals and desires and being connected to humanity is learning to be patient 

[00:42:56] Mark Pearson Freeland: with people again. Oh my, there's a lot [00:43:00] in that great clip from Brendan Bouchard.

[00:43:02] Isn't there dealing with how we look at how we collaborate, how we maybe deal with frustrating people. There's a lot to unpack there and 

[00:43:12] Mike Parsons: he's just reminding us of that. Oh God, there's that classic saying, don't rush to judgment of others as you have no idea what battles they are fighting.

[00:43:25] And, Brandon put that into some modern context. You had troubles at home. It can be all sorts of things that affect us. And I think there's this huge reality to modern people management, which is you need to bring just this most enormous capacity for empathy and understanding and taking the chance to understand what's motivating the people around you before you rush to judgment before you try and get them into high-performance mode.

[00:43:59] You, this [00:44:00] to me is one big, ah, pause, take a breath. Do you understand the individual you're working with before rushing to implementing any sort of Hey, let's get things firing. Let's get things going. Let's get you performing really well. Do you understand them enough? And I think that the mistake that we made.

[00:44:22] That I make that I think we're all quite prone to making is that we are in such a rush that our agenda is so busy that we are pushing through programs and ways of working that have not really taken into enough consideration. The individuals that this affects. How many times do you hear of stories where people and teams hear about a decision management's made and it's in total conflict to how people want to work.

[00:44:55] And there's a lot of resentment and frustration because [00:45:00] the managers just don't get it. I think that's a proxy for saying those managers just didn't take time to understand people in teams and what their needs are doing. 

[00:45:09] Mark Pearson Freeland: Yeah, I think what Bouchard's really calling out and that we need to bear in mind is you can't, and shouldn't deprioritize the individuals perhaps over results.

[00:45:20] Exactly. As you're just saying, instead of running or sprinting towards that finish line. And therefore maybe using those three areas that Seth Godin was calling out fear, shame, and anger to motivate, or maybe not motivate, but to drive those results instead, take the time to work on perhaps your ego, perhaps the understanding and consideration or perception that another individual on the team might have with regards to maybe it's a decision from the managers.

[00:45:50] Maybe it's a little bit of inspiration or motivation or perhaps feedback 

[00:45:55] Mike Parsons: and mark, maybe it's just they liked their job. They liked their work, but they got some [00:46:00] crazy stuff going on at home, which is totally like blurring how they see reality. 

[00:46:05] Mark Pearson Freeland: I think it's a really key point that again has come up when Sineck the clip that we heard from earlier is where there's Robbins and even Steve jobs.

[00:46:14] Remember that you're working with people you're not working with robots who have been trained to pick up the phone to make sales, to manage clients, to send emails or make keynotes. They're real people with ambitions values decisions that they're making each day. And particularly in an environment as fast paced, perhaps as we're living in now, where you do need to perhaps be online more than previous startups or otherwise.

[00:46:47] And instead of just working towards that finish line thinking, okay, I'll just send this email now and that'll make me look good or I'll get out and give that feedback to the individual. They just need a little bit of a whip crack, and they'll give me exactly what it [00:47:00] is that I need without taking the time to nurture those good relationships, to find the way of communicating better between those levels.

[00:47:09] It's always going to be that little bit inefficient. 

[00:47:12] Mike Parsons: It is. Ed is an if you really want to go and understand how the best people lead, then we need to turn once again to one of our absolute favorites, Mr. Simon Sinek here, he's gonna share with us his thoughts on what leaders truly do. 

[00:47:34] Simon Sinek: There's a funny story that goes along with how we came up with the title of this book, and we are all to blame here.

[00:47:40] I am writing a book about the importance of working with people, interacting with people, human relationships, and yet the way I and the publisher interacted was we would send emails to each other with title suggestions every now and then we'd get on the phone, but it was mainly done through email.

[00:47:55] Somebody would send the list of their favorite and, somebody would write back that's junk. I liked that one and it was a [00:48:00] labored, horrible process. No one ever, we never agreed with it was just. Talking at each other. And coincidence, I happened to be walking past the publisher's office and decided to stick my head in and say, hello, went upstairs.

[00:48:15] And we sat down and within I think, 30 or 40 minutes, we had a title that we all fell in love with. And what you realize is we can tell an idea to someone over email, but you interact. And if you think about how ideas really happen, it's not presentation, response, presentation, response, it's interruption and backwards and forwards and battling and saying no, that's not what I mean.

[00:48:36] And it's messy. And it's the messiness that cannot happen over and over an internet connection over email, because everything is exact over email. It can happen over the phone, but it's so much better in person when you get to see someone's body language and you see the frustration and you try and ex re-explain yourself and we told each other stories as opposed to telling each other what we think it should be.

[00:48:55] And the story that I told. Not being able to understand what made the [00:49:00] Marines so amazing at what they do. I sat down with a Marine Corps, general general Flint actually, who wrote the forward for the book. And I said to him, what makes the Marines so great? And he looked at me and said, officers eat last.

[00:49:14] And that sort of struck me that if you compare that to the business world in the entrepreneurial world, entrepreneurs are always told, pay yourself first, look after yourself first and yet. I'm being told by this Marine general that it's the complete opposite and there's a symbolic gesture.

[00:49:28] But more importantly, there's a, there's an importance to it. There's a photograph I saw, in these Kenya shootings that just, that happened not so long ago. W we had the amazing experience that a photographer happened to be in the building. Usually we see the aftermath and here we now have photographs of the actual shooting going on.

[00:49:44] And there's one photograph that was in the New York times that both haunted me and inspired me to this day and wanted me and inspires me, I should say. And if the photograph of a mother in the sound of gunshots lays herself on top of her child, and you see this [00:50:00] picture of a mother lying on top of her child and you realize that's what it is, that's what leadership is that when there is danger, it's not protecting myself, but it's rather willing to put myself in harm's way to protect another.

[00:50:12] That's what you think last means. It means that I will give the very the very essence of life, food and water. I will give it to the person I love first so that they may live. Even if it means I. And that's what officers eat last means it is symbolic, but it is also very real and real leadership, real leaders I've even given up the terminology of good leaders and great leaders.

[00:50:34] You're either a leader or you're not a leader, that's it? Real leaders, biological anthropological leaders are that mother who instinctively without weighing the pros and cons or the bad things that may happen to her, throw herself on her child. That's what leadership is, do we believe that our leaders would throw themselves on us?

[00:50:59] If [00:51:00] they heard gunshots, if the economy shook, would they quickly throw themselves on that? 

[00:51:05] Mark Pearson Freeland: Mike. That's a big penny drop moment for me. You're either a leader or you're not, there's no such thing as good or bad leaders. I think that's such an important takeaway that, 

[00:51:16] Mike Parsons: cynic getting pretty fired up there.

[00:51:18] I have to say my, and I think, the thing I want to point out is the contrast. We have way too often, this image of the CEO on the private jet, the CEO with the private lift. Have you heard those stories? For example, the CEO of Lehman brothers he had his own private lift. 

[00:51:42] Mark Pearson Freeland: So he knows 

[00:51:44] Mike Parsons: exactly that doesn't sound like the office is letting the junior cadets eat first, that doesn't quite have that ring about it. And I think you're either vested in the wellbeing of others or not. I think you go out of your [00:52:00] way to see others thrive or not. And that was the really black and white picture that Sinek was drawing for us. It really 

[00:52:08] Mark Pearson Freeland: is. If you're a Marine general and officer, or just a leader in the company, you need your teammates to believe that you will get maybe in harm's way and take the flag.

[00:52:20] If there's something that perhaps they need to protect you from, rather than pass on blame or get out of the way of fire, perhaps you need to just stand up and show you demonstrate to your team that you are indeed the individual to manage them. 

[00:52:36] Mike Parsons: Yeah. And the payoff, let me just say this. If you take good care of people, they will not just do their job.

[00:52:45] I truly believe that when the time comes, they will go above and beyond because we, as people are motivated that when we know others are going out of their way for us, we'll go out of our way for [00:53:00] them to do. I 

[00:53:01] Mark Pearson Freeland: totally agree. And my, it almost seems a perfect segue to now close this section of the show and move on to those frameworks and methods to adopt this better way of managing people in order to try and be that better teammate.

[00:53:17] And you're right. It does inspire you to maybe stick around, to dig in deep, but also to learn more and even maybe become a manager of people in the 

[00:53:26] Mike Parsons: future as well. Yeah. And I think now too, to bring home managing people, we are gonna spend the next 15 minutes talking about what models and habits you can implement.

[00:53:39] And there, let me tell you, there are none better than the grow model. This one has been really this grow model which is applied to helping. Managers get the most out of people has been around for many decades. It has it's been kicked around in many different scientific studies to show how well it [00:54:00] actually performs.

[00:54:01] And it builds upon this theme of empathy that we've heard from cynic. Something that we deal a lot with on our show. The moonshots podcast is the work of Patrick Lensioni. He's a fan it's called the grow model. So let's bring our minds to one of the most powerful ways that you can unlock the potential in others.

[00:54:24] MindToolsVideos: Being a coach is all about asking good open questions. And this is where the grow model comes in. Grow is a simple but effective framework that helps your coachee understand their challenges properly and identify what their next actions should be in order to reach a solution. Let's take a look at how.

[00:54:44] G stands for goals. The first few questions will help your coachee to establish an appropriate objective. For example, what do you want to achieve? What does your goal mean to you? When will you meet your goal? [00:55:00] R stands for reality, you should then ask your coachee to think practically about their goal and how it would look in reality, using questions.

[00:55:09] Like what supports do you need to achieve your goal? What challenges do you expect to encounter? How might you deal with them? O stands for options next, ask your coachee to think of three or four things they could do that might help them reach their goal. Then work with your coachee to evaluate these options by asking questions, like what are the pros and cons of each option, or what factors will you use to weigh up these options?

[00:55:40] W stands for well, all way forward, finally establish how committed your coachee is to the actions they have agreed to do this. Ask the coachee, to rate their commitment on a scale of one to 10, explore together, what would need to change or happen [00:56:00] to get them to a nine or even a 10, identify some practical actions, such as blocking out an hour, a week to work exclusively towards reaching their goal, encourage your coachee to imagine how they will feel.

[00:56:14] If they meet their objectives, visualizing a successful outcome will motivate your coachee even more. So there you have it by using the grow model, you can help your coachee. Stay on track, engage in some genuine self-reflection and identify relevant and realistic. That will help them achieve that overall 

[00:56:38] Mark Pearson Freeland: objectives.

[00:56:40] A nice breakdown from mine tools, videos on the grow model, Mike, which I think is standing out to me as a really practical framework that really for me reinforces the fact that a lot of these decisions have to be collaborative. It's not just necessarily the manager telling you what you should go out [00:57:00] and do, but actually by collaborating with the team member to find what motivates them to think about their options and what they have and what they need as well as their will and way forward, what choices they need to go out and do in order to achieve the goals.

[00:57:16] I think it's a really interesting consideration as we think about how and what habits we need to adopt to manage people better. It's actually making sure that we collaborate with the individual more than just delegate and throw things to them and say, go out and do it then. 

[00:57:31] Mike Parsons: I totally agree. So at the heart of the grow model, by the way, head over to moonshots.io, get the show notes.

[00:57:38] If you want to grab links to the grow model, you want to actually visualize it while we talk about it. But for me, the grow model does a couple of things. One, it puts a contrast between the goals that somebody has and where they are now, and like any good program showing you like, Hey, here's where you are today.

[00:57:57] Here's where you want to be tomorrow. Look at that [00:58:00] gap. And when, once someone really understands the gap between the goal and the reality of their performance, then you can ask about what options do we have to close that gap. But. I for this moment, my want to focus on the w of the Grove, which is the will, which is really working on the deliberate, conscious choice to close the gap between the goal and the reality.

[00:58:26] When we work with people, we should never gloss over the help that is often required to sign up for change, to sign up, to improve really comes from this very conscious commitment to it. Cause you know how many times Mike, can we say things like, I know I need to put more effort into that, but I haven't.

[00:58:51] I know I need to go to the gym more, but I haven't. I know I need to wake up early. But I haven't. [00:59:00] That is the w here that's the will. And that's why positive manifestation of what you could be an massive commitment to the daily habits. This is why at moonshots, we believe so much in habits. Cause that's where your will does the work.

[00:59:19] This is where you are like getting up early to go to the gym. This is where you get up early to do your meditation work. This is where you get up to get the job done. And you don't hit the snooze button on life. 

[00:59:36] Mark Pearson Freeland: Yeah, exactly. Don't hit the snooze button on being that best version of yourself. It is 

[00:59:42] Mike Parsons: so tempting and many of us are bright and smart enough to know what needs to be done.

[00:59:49] But few of us have the capacity to live that, to practice that every single day. And it's that 1% better every day is where we close the gap. Isn't it 

[00:59:59] Mark Pearson Freeland: mark. [01:00:00] That's right. And to help us close the gap might in this part, three of our managing people's series on master series is again, one of the moonshot, legends very bright thinker, Mr.

[01:00:13] Simon Sinek. And I think he's really gonna help us close the show, Mike, on how we think about managing people and this bigger idea of collaboration and trust and authenticity. And we're going to hear from some snag one more time, really encourage us to think about managing people and mentorship, like a friend.

[01:00:33] Simon Sinek: One of my mentors, Ron Bruder taught me what mentorship was really all about. I met him professionally. I was introduced to him. He's very accomplished, very successful, much, many years, my senior very wise, we got along and, a week or two later, I had a question that I thought he might be able to help me with.

[01:00:51] And I called him and he took my call. I only met him once and they took my call again. Then we met for lunch. He just kept saying yes. And [01:01:00] he became my mentor, and I remember I was at his house one day and I was getting, I was leaving and I put my arm around him and I used the N word for the very first time.

[01:01:08] I said, I love that. You're my mentor. And he said something to me that I didn't expect. He said, and I love that you were mine. And that's when I realized a mentor relationship is more like a friendship. You just walk up to a random person and say, will you be my mentor? Of course, just like you can't walk up to a random person and say, will you be my friend?

[01:01:25] Mentor relationships evolve because a mentor always has time for you. They see something in you for some reason that they make time for you. And they learn as much as they, as much as they teach. Yeah. They come into it because they learn some, I never knew that Ron was getting something from the, our time together.

[01:01:42] I thought he was just doing me favors. Cause he was an amazing guy. And a mentor relationship is it's a mentor, mentor relationship. So this whole idea of like you're assigned to be someone's mentor. Like 

[01:01:52] Mike Parsons: maybe that could be 

[01:01:53] Brendon Burchard: that seems a little, again, going back to a 

[01:01:54] Mike Parsons: transactional, 

[01:01:55] Simon Sinek: like it's actually, you have to have mentors and you have to seek them out.

[01:01:58] I remember when I was junior looking for a job, [01:02:00] people say, what are you looking for? And my standard answer in every interview as an entry-level idiot was that's the theme in my career. The next book. I'm just a more senior idiot now. Yeah. When they say, what are you looking for? My answer is always the same.

[01:02:12] I said, what I'm looking for is probably akin to looking for love, but I'm looking for a mentor. And every job that I was looking for, I was more concerned about the people I would work for than I was, how much they would pay me or whether the account was high profile or low profile. And so I took jobs with like accounts that nobody ever heard of because I didn't care.

[01:02:31] I cared about the people I was going to work. I wanted to work with really smart, amazing people who would teach me and help me grow. Yeah. And that's one of the reasons I got to work with some of 

[01:02:39] Mike Parsons: these wonderful people. What an interesting reframing of where we go to what we may have traditionally called our manager.

[01:02:49] It's now a mentor and it's not a one-way street. I think doesn't that it's like cynics been listening to our entire show. 

[01:02:56] Mark Pearson Freeland: I love, I want to just build on what you've just said that [01:03:00] it's not a one-way street. And I think what's perhaps a traditional way of thinking about managing people. Is you the manager or providing benefits to the receiver of your time?

[01:03:13] You're helping them reach their goals consider the way forward and inspire their will to go out and achieve results. But actually what I love from that Simon Sinek clip, there is the receiver is simultaneously providing a benefit to the person who's handing it out during this question.

[01:03:33] And I love that idea. If you make time to help manage an individual, remember you are going to learn something about yourself. You're going to learn something about them. Maybe you're going to get an even greater strength within the management space by just practicing the way that you talk to them, how you delegate, how you provide feedback.

[01:03:54] There's no wasted time there. 

[01:03:56] Mike Parsons: Yeah. Reciprocity, right? It's a total reframing [01:04:00] of top-down to a and hopefully mark, what we've done today is reframe what managing people is all about. We almost hoodwinked everyone with the title didn't we? 

[01:04:11] Mark Pearson Freeland: Yeah. I think he might be right. I think really for me, Mike, it's been refreshing as we consider a pretty traditional space for, with regards to managing people.

[01:04:21] It's things. Because we don't sit down and necessarily learn about how to manage people. We therefore copy perhaps one of our bosses or managers that we've had in the past. And I think what's been reframed for me today through the likes of Sineck and Robbins and Steve jobs, for example, is that actually remember that the person that you're collaborating with is a real person.

[01:04:42] And in the long run, if you take time to, to nurture that relationship, you're both going to receive a benefit from it. So it's really reframed my whole way of thinking about managing people. How have you. With today's master series. 

[01:04:55] Mike Parsons: I think it has been all about, it's not top [01:05:00] down, right? It's not command and control.

[01:05:02] It's collaborate and trust. It's not one way it's two way and more fundamentally, you should be operating in such a way that you are helping others and they are helping you and my God, that sounds like poetic, but Jesus, that's hard. Isn't it? It's 

[01:05:21] Mark Pearson Freeland: so hard. But with a little bit of discipline, a little bit of, yes, I'm going to go out and do it.

[01:05:26] I think we might be able to get there in this. 

[01:05:29] Mike Parsons: Yeah, I think I think that's absolutely right mark. And I want to thank you mark, for being on this journey with me. And I would love to thank you our listeners, our moonshots members, our patrons have been on this journey to be better versions of ourselves.

[01:05:47] And today it was episode 10 of the master series, managing people which started with a whole truckload of inspiration from some of the best cynic Robbins and Mr. Steve jobs himself. And [01:06:00] it really reframed how to think about managing people. It became a question of a leadership. It became the practice of empathy.

[01:06:08] And what Seth Godin told us is we don't use fear. What Brendan Bouchard said is focus on the humanity and cynic reminded us that the great leaders. Are the ones that eat lost the offices. It last, the cadets eat first to put others before yourself. And how do we do that? What are the rituals, the practices, what are the habits we can use the grow model?

[01:06:35] And we can use one of the biggest, longest lasting concepts of the mode friendship. That's right. Simon seeing said in the end, it is not top down in the end. It is not one way, but rather it's reciprocity to support each other, to challenge each other, to make each other better versions of themselves. And that is what we are all about here on the moonshots [01:07:00] master series.

[01:07:01] Mark Pearson Freeland: That's a wrap,