nicholas Taleb: Antifragile
EPISODE 88
In episode 88 we explore Part 1 of our 2 part series on Nassim Nicholas Taleb. The scholar and former options trader who has devoted his life to problems of randomness, probability, and uncertainty.
We dive into his book, Antifragile: Things that gain from disorder (Buy on Amazon) and discover how to approach the world in the face of uncertainty and what lessons can we take from his work to ensure robustness, to set ourselves or your business up for potential positive and negative events.
SHOW OUTLINE
INTRO
What does being Antifragile mean to you
Readers Defining Antifragility In their own words (1m55)
THE VALUE OF STRESS & EMBRACING UNCERTAINTY
Don’t fear volatility
The benefits of uncertainty (1m24)
Resilience is something we can teach ourselves
Jonathan Haidt Introduces Antifragility (2m02)
TOP 10 BIG IDEAS FROM ANTIFRAGILE
Part one: fragile v robust, emotional stamina, are you a victim or hero, get excited about being uncomfortable
Brian Johnson Top 1-5
Part two: have/create infinite options, wear scars as medals (Jordan), post-traumatic growth
Brian Johnson Top 6-10
TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the men shots podcast. It is a massive, strong, robust resilience. Some might even say very solution, episode 88. I'm your cohost, Mike Parsons. And as I joined by cohost, not any names. Being handled with care. So variant it's mr. Mark Freeland. Good morning, Mike, how are you doing on this fine Tuesday.
Winter is Sydney morning. I am. I'm so excited to have wrestled with one of the biggest, most exciting, uh, theoretical concepts and packaged it all up for this show together with you, Mark. I am ready. So tell our audience. [00:01:00] Get let's get the suspense over with where are we going on this very thick, robust, challenging concept today, today, we're launching into the legend in most influential management guru.
The top 50 Bloomberg's most influential people in global finance, we're digging into Nicholas Taleb and his work in the anti job book. This is part of the series of books in his income Certeau additions of, of books. So we're not necessarily going to dig into one, two, three, four, which we all encourage our listeners to go and check out.
Today, we're really, really getting into something that's very, very close to our, and it comes up a lot in our episodes, actually, Mike, doesn't it. A lot of our innovators. A tease this concept that we're going to be getting into today and that's all about antifragility. Oh, [00:02:00] and do you know what, what is crazy about this concept?
It's quite unlike any of the other concepts that we've had in the show, any of the other, you know, tomes of work is this idea of antifragility works on a very personal basis. And we're going to talk about that works sort of for business. It even works for education, the economy itself, it's almost the way mother nature works.
It is a massive idea. And I think we'd be lying to our listeners if we haven't spent days wrestling with how to package this show together, because it is, I mean, you could do a whole series exploring all of the dimensions of antifragility. I think if for our listeners. They want to know why they should listen for the next hour.
I think we're about to go and uncover some sort of system that works across all of those different layers that I explained. And we've been able to kind of capture some of [00:03:00] the theories, some of the concepts, but importantly, we've also got some very good practices, some sort of antifragile one Oh one. So this is an.
Absolute, uh, journey and adventure, a roller coaster in thinking and concepts, but we really hope for all of our listeners, we can make it relatable and understandable. I think if you're going out in the world and if you, I mean, basically to build off our last show, I think if you do get out of your bed and make your bed, the next thing that you need to consider is this concept of answers.
Fragility. I mean, I have, I've enjoyed doing the research. I can't wait to do the show. I mean, me too. Me too. Exactly. Like you say, the book itself, the tone that's the perfect word is spans. Everything from trial and error, life, decision politics, urban planning, war, personal finance economies, you know, so we've really, yeah, like you say, we've learned a lot, [00:04:00] you know, we've, we've absorbed it all.
And I think I'm excited to get into the show. Let's just put it like that. And we're going to start in an unusual way. So why don't you kind of set up this first clip because it's a, it's an unusual way for us to start. It is normally we love to start our show with our innovator author. It's really speaking about.
What their work is, maybe it's a book. Maybe it's a concept. And we like to hear from them, but actually today because of the scale of this piece of work and because of its nature within a series of books, we thought what better way to be introduced to the concept of antifragility than actually hearing it from the readers.
So starting off our show in a slightly different way to usual. We're actually going to hear from the audience or listeners like yourselves at home, the readers of anti-fragile telling us what antifreeze he means to them in that own words. [00:05:00] Antifragility to me and to, um, my area of work is the ability to be strong enough to be able to bounce back after being hit by a storm.
Antifragility is thriving off of disruption. So if disruption is a fact and something that is going to be happening, how can you capitalize off of that? Where your peers will actually fall behind? How can you capitalize on that disruption? The word actually is a pretty good term. And what it means is figuring out how to eliminate disruptions.
And if you can't eliminate how to recover from the more quickly, that would be my definition antifragility is ensuring that your business has a continuity that will deliver consistently for both shareholder and customer it's isolating yourself or your business model from. Um, [00:06:00] um, the factors both internal and external to ensure that you can consistently provide the value for me under facilities, the ability to react to various different threat vectors and challenges that you get from different parts of the world, different parts of your business challenges, and being able to respond appropriately antifragility is building a supply chain that can handle rapid changes.
It's building. Supply chain that can handle, uh, external events, unseen external events, uh, and it's building a supply chain that can evolve with business conditions. Being able to withstand whatever may come and still deliver it to your commitments. In the end customer antifragility is really giving the company more resilience to adapt to the variability in the market.
I mean what a [00:07:00] fascinating, uh, clip, because people were like some guys that thinking about adaptability, some guys that manifested as a supply chain story. Look for me. What I'd take from this Mark is that people who have read this book by Nicholas Taleb antifragile. What you can see is I think that the power is we have to kind of be like a Swiss army knife, uh, ready for any sort of action.
I think this is like, Knowing that you don't control the world being ready for the things that may or may not happen being ready for the I'm predictable. That's what you can be in control of. You can control your response, your own agility, your own capacity to adapt. And I think that was really. Good to hear people digesting this big concept of being antifragile, because we taught so much [00:08:00] of things being fragile and Talib talks about on the, on the shipping box, they put fragile handle with care.
And what we're about out to reveal is that is simply not how the world works. Uh, Mark for you as you've delved into antifragile, you've just heard all these people reflecting on what it means to them. My question for you is how do you process it? How have you processed it? And what does it mean to you?
Exactly like the clip that we've just heard. And I think it's an interesting way for us to start. The show is. How different one can interpret it. You know, the work of Tyler, um, particularly in antifragile is relevant to many, many different strands of business economies, government systems, and our day to day reactions to stresses, you know, the thing for me, That really sings when I really dug into antifragile [00:09:00] is this concept of a disruption capitalization, which actually one of the, one of the listeners and readers called out in that clip.
Just now this idea of. If you can train yourself to be ready to adapt and handle rapid changes, you have an advantage on those around you while everybody else is perhaps sinking or trying to swim. You're already out of the water because you've done the practice. You've responded already to those challenges and you've bounced back even stronger than, you know, your competitor brands or those around you, your colleagues.
And for me, that's, that's a really, really valuable lesson that comes through in antifragile because you're right. There's a, there's a great description of antifragile that, that concept of putting the sticker on the front of a box. I love, I think that's really, really nice, but for me, When I'm thinking about it, I think, okay, well, how can I learn from this?
And I think it's really [00:10:00] down to this adaptability, this reaction that comes through in the way that you live your life and that you operate a business. The power of what we've just heard, uh, from people talking in their own words is that they've manifest them, uh, this idea of anti-fragile, uh, and very entrepreneurial terms.
And later in the show, we're going to go into the top 10 practices of antifragility and we're going to discuss them, relate to them, pull them apart so that you, our listeners, you can get all those valuable. Tips hints tricks. So you can apply them in your world, whatever you're doing, whether you're designing, building, creating something, or just on a mission to be the very best version of yourself.
But Mark, I'm going to tell you who's the very best version of themselves, particularly when it comes to reviewing shows. And that is Morgan from, uh, the United States of America. He jumped, uh, into, [00:11:00] uh, the Apple podcast app and he left us a stunning review. Didn't he? He really did. So Morgan LA, thank you very much.
Well, sorry. Mergen 43, actually. I think Morgan LA mustard be where you're based. Thank you so much for leaving us a very, really kind review as always. We could not appreciate it more. This is the perfect way to help us get the word out there. You know, this concept of learning out loud of digging into these innovators each week.
You know, we love it. And we love when we hear from you, our listeners. And when you do leave us a rating and review in your podcasting app of choice, it just helps others around the world. Check us out too. Doesn't it, Mike? Yeah, that's great. And do you know, thanks to reviews from people, Morgan dragon on wheels, beef bull y'all and every other person.
Uh, we're actually, I think we have over 110 people have reviewed and rated the show. We're so grateful to you because that introduces us to more and more [00:12:00] people. And on today's show Mark, we have another cosmopolitan mix of new listeners where we have entered in the top hundred charts. I mean, Mark.
Nigeria Taiwan, Israel, India, Mexico. I mean, imagine what a thing that would be, if you could dine out on all those wonderful countries, imagine a meal that you could have. I mean, ah, tasty. So we welcome. We welcome all of these new listeners. We encourage you. If you do enjoy the show, leave us a rating or review, or if you think we can do a better job.
Don't worry. We're anti-fragile send us an email at Mark. Where is our famous email address@helloatmoonshots.io. If you do want to leave us a little bit of a commentary or a bit of criticism, just put it in the title, put here's an antifragile message to practice with an anchor tips. We're willing to learn.
We're willing to embrace Tal abs lessons here and this ability of bouncing back. So don't [00:13:00] worry. Don't, don't be fragile around us and really. What you see in that is the perfect thought for this next clip. You shouldn't fear uncertainty. You shouldn't fear, volatility, the unexpected. Actually the key to thriving, not only on a genetic, on a, on a biological level.
I mean, think about what our bodies want to do. Our muscles want to grow. Our bones, want to heal bigger, better and stronger. So don't. Don't fear don't avoid, uh, the uncertainty of the future. Let's have a listen to the author himself, Nicholas Taleb, talking about the benefits of uncertainty markets, our information, the problem in finance is that people want to fear volatility.
So they do a Greenspan, a Greenspan from Brisbane. Ization is you're trying to artificially stabilize everything [00:14:00] and just like a forest in which you're oppressed, every small fire to stabilize the big, the flammable. Serial and a hidden risk accumulate. And then the big one is, is monstrously bad. So this is what happens in economic system.
You have to learn to love for volatility for the sake of the system, because variability, if you embrace, it gives you information that makes you adapt very quickly. And of course protects from big, these big, uh, big fail events. And you can apply to so many things, you know, like in life you can have no variables in your life by spending six years in bed, hopefully running.
Uh, now that have all my books in complete works, I have 600 pages of math or so you can probably do that. It would take about six years to get through whatever, or you can read the, so have the soprano entire episode, but anyway, he spent six years in bed. You had no way now what happens to you when you get out of bed?
And as someone advisers you, your bones, you know, go break a very easily, your bones would be brittle. And the first term, you know, make you, is that you, you, you may, you may not survive a [00:15:00] subway ride, particularly in New York. So this is this illusion of wanting. If you embrace volatility, you got a lot more out of it than they should fear it, embracing volatility.
That's great. Again, building on that. Great clip of, of, of listeners and readers, um, you know, referring what antifragility means to them. Now we actually hear it from Talib himself and actually I'm, I must admit, I think we might've clipped the, uh, that clip just a little bit too short, because I think he says when you're in bed, he also likes to listen to the moon shops.
Episodes.
You're absolutely right, Mark. I mean, we didn't want to, uh, uh, sing our own praises. We highly encourage anybody who's at home, you know, again, go and check out moonshots and like we say, livers review, but anyway, I think, I think the value of this clip and it's great hearing it from teller himself because it's what all of his books.
In the inserter series, [00:16:00] do he implies investment knowledge and advice into a relatable way that we can do in our day to day lives? So telling us, Hey, embrace the uncertainty don't shy away from, you know, challenges of this idea of volatility itself is so powerful, especially when you compare it to, you know, we've discussed this before Mike is breaking of muscles.
Is how you get stronger. And that volatility is, you know, where your body as well as your mind and strengthen. Yep. So what's really cool about that clip to build on what you were saying is Nicholas Talib, just compared a macroeconomic policy by Alan Greenspan, the head of the federal reserve in America.
Some while ago, he drew an analogy between how he supported the economy too much. Made it very fragile by overprotecting it. And he compared that to [00:17:00] atrophy, which is staying in bed for too long and your bones getting Brita. Can we just appreciate how damn cool that is? That he can take his concept and show you the dimension of it?
And I think that's a real joy that I'm experiencing as I revisit his work as I go into this idea of antifragility. But here is where I want to come back to one of my favorite innovators, Zaha Hadid. I've talked about his several times. We also have a whole show dedicated to her. If you go to our back catalog at now, where would you find I'm just going to have to try and remember it's moonshots.io.
All of our archives shows and mentioned that we highly recommend everybody's going to check it out. The Zahar headed. One is a personal favorite of mine too. And she knows Zahara, literally overcame so many obstacles and she developed an antifragile mindset. She was like, Ooh, [00:18:00] another challenge as someone being sexist because she was a woman because she was a, a female architect in Britain, in the sixties and seventies.
Uh, she was also our middle East in, uh, uh, heritage. So, you know, that made it hard. So racist, sexist, you name it. And she's like, no problem. I will fight the system. I will overcome. I will not let them get the better of me. I will let adversity make me stronger. This is the essence of anti-fragile. It is the essence of a pattern that you and I see in so many entrepreneurs, this idea that they brew, they totally embrace hardship because they know no on the other side of the hardship.
On the other side, uh, is absolute, uh, enrichment fulfillment, satisfaction. The feeling of [00:19:00] realizing your purpose and your dream is an elixir that is purely. Magical, but you know, the crazy thing is this embracing of volatility is not any great for your personal life or for entrepreneurship or the economy.
Mark. We can even apply this beyond those. I mean, it gets better, doesn't it? It does. And in the next clip that we're going to actually listen to, uh, a, uh, educator. Jonathan Haidt, who we just want to give a little shout out to because we, we love what he says in this coming clip. It's all about building on this idea of volatility and uncertainty.
It's all about resilience. And again, Mike, this is something that you and I have riffed on and talked about a lot in the previous shows. And again, Zoho did is a perfect example of somebody who demonstrates and practices resilience in what they do. So in this next clip, again, building into this concept of antifragility in Jonathan Haidt, talking to his [00:20:00] students and introducing the concept of antifragility and how resilience is something that we can actually teach ourselves.
Let me give you the most important psychological concept for adolescent development for human development. Well, there's several really important ones, but here's a really important one. Antifragility chapter seven is on the uses of adversity because every society has a principle, something like what doesn't kill me, makes me stronger as Friedrich Nietzsche put it.
And why is this true? Well, the best explanation is from this really interesting book by Nassim to lab to lab could see that the American banking, the global banking system had not been challenged. And if something isn't stressed, then it, uh, if it finally is stressed, it collapses. And so he's trying to figure out what's the word, what's the word for things that get longer?
The more they're challenged, everybody said, well, resilience, that's what resilience is. [00:21:00] And he says, no, no, it's not really. It's more than resilience. So if you think about it like this, a wineglass fragile. And so we don't let kids toddlers play with a wine glass because they'll drop it. And if they drop it, nothing good happens.
So we give them plastic. Sippy cups because plastic is resilient. If you drop a plastic cup and kids do it, doesn't break, but does it get better? No. So what's the word for things that get better when you drop them and there isn't one. And so Talib makes up this word fragile, the opposite of fragile. So bones are anti-fragile when you break your bones, they heal and they get stronger where they broke, but he said he notes that a candle is fragile.
If you have a candle, you have to protect it from a puff of wind, which will blow it out. But if it gives a Flint gets large enough, it becomes a fire. Then the more you blow on it, the stronger it gets. And so to lab says you want to be the fire and wish for the wind, which I think is very good [00:22:00] advice.
Both for you as you run your lives and for your teachers and school administrators, as you think about how to make kids at Asheville school stronger. Ooh way. That is just what a succinct presentation of the importance, the value and the magic in anti fragility. Be the fire and wish. For the wind. Oh, does not speak to you on a million different levels.
My what a great little mantra that is, isn't it, you know, be the fire, be that strength that remain burning away, but actually. You know that weakness, uh, you know, that the wind is going to be the weakness fire, but as Taleb talks about in, in antifragile, you know, a flame for a candle is very, very fragile.
Cause a little gust of wind can blow out, but when there's a fire and it rages and that wind just who's the fire [00:23:00] suddenly that idea of, uh, capitalizing on this uncertainty. Makes perfect sense to me again, it's a wonderful little visual metaphor because it just who's to live this great image of the use of uncertainty being the way to make me stronger.
So actually you embrace those uncertain moments, pretty challenging, I suppose. And how does dynamic that we've heard, we've talked about the economic policy of the federal reserve. We've talked about atrophy in bed, educating others, being an entrepreneur. Anti-fragile is the. Organizing system by which you can survive and here's the key bit and thrive.
So I think that what we've tried to pull together here is three clips that. Really present the dynamics and the possibilities, just the [00:24:00] sheer capacity of this idea can be applied in so many ways. And I think this is the gift. I think, um, it's safe to say Nicholas Taleb, the author of antifragile had no idea, uh, that.
The sheer dimensionality of this concept could be applied in our lives in so many different shapes and forms. So many different flavors. Um, I find this really exciting and, and beyond that, if there was ever. Um, moments in life, where we needed to think about the benefits of uncertainty and not fearing volatility and the unexpected.
It has to be here. We are in the middle of 2020, and people are talking about work from home quarantine. COVID-19 like putting all of that in context. We really do have a choice. We can fear this [00:25:00] volatility. Or we can embrace it and use it as a way to make ourselves stronger. Use this as a moment to make ourselves our families, our friends, our communities, um, Are a larger cohort, whether it's a state or a whole country, this is how we have a choice right now.
So what I hope we've done so far is given everyone some inspiration to embrace the uncertainty. I mean, Joe Rogan. It's crazy to think that Joe Rogan was on the scene. Same idea. So an MMA guy, a comedian guy has the same fundamental belief as this brilliant strategic theorist, academic and author, Nicholas Taleb embrace the discomfort, embrace the uncertainty because.
You will earn your success. You will be stronger in the process of getting there. Don't sit in bed and get all brittle, [00:26:00] go out and face. Whatever life has to bring us. This is some good stuff, Mark. How are you processing it? If you have to kind of break it down for yourself before we get into all the practical, good stuff.
How I, you processing this idea of anti-fragile, how's it all mixing up in your mindset? It speaks to me, it speaks to me a lot. Then the book itself is very, very, um, you know, dance. It's fantastic. Detailed. Look at how to. Uh, you know, STEM these different concepts, across many, many different situations and areas of business, as well as, um, government structures like we've discussed.
But you know, for me, if I'm. You know, comparing it to where I am right now. Now, you know, in the middle of a pandemic we're restricted to, um, essentially homes or, you know, the nearby neighborhoods, you know, we're encouraged not [00:27:00] to do much overseas travel, which, you know, frankly, I, I I'd come to take for granted, I suppose, you know, having family living on the other side of the world, I was expecting to go back at least a couple of times this year.
But, you know, it's now a middle of August and I haven't gone back once. And this concept, like I say, I took it for granted. So I was naturally quite fragile in the way that I was expecting to go and do that. I was expecting to almost have a guarantee of what I would be doing. And you know, where Nicholas Taleb comes through for me is I could lie in bed.
And, you know, atrophy or watch Soprano's or listen to the entire archive shows of moonshots. Um, but actually this concept of right, I'm going to get out, I'm going to go and embrace this discomfort. I'm going to accept it. I think number one, and I'm going to not make it be the thing that [00:28:00] ruins my mood or ruins my ability to work.
That's number two for me. So it's acceptance and it's, uh, you know, not letting it drag me to one side or distract me. Yeah. I love it. I love it. It's and it's so brilliant because all of this response to, to work from home in quarantine is a choice. And I think this has been very, very, um, true of a lot of lessons that we've learned through studying, uh, entrepreneurs and innovators, creators designers, artists, authors, you might not control COVID-19, but you do control your response to it.
Exactly. We all hold that capability in our own minds. We know how to respond to challenges when they come up, you know, whether it's, when you're going for a run or motivating [00:29:00] yourself to go and, you know, try some new food, you know, there are all sorts of challenges all around us and our ability to bounce.
Yeah. Back and accept the situation that we're all in now. Yeah. That's entirely up to us and that's really fantastic how libs antifragile comes through for me. Yeah, the, um, the exciting thing now is if, if we haven't done a good job of pitching the value of anti-fragile that perhaps the, the, the rest of the show is not for you, but for the listeners that are like Mark, Mike, What do you know, what can we learn about how to do this?
Let's put this into practice. I mean, if, if every time we work out. And we're a bit tight the day after that's actually a muscles ripping and then regrowing, but they regrow stronger and bigger. Our bones when they [00:30:00] break, they grow back stronger and bigger. If our basic biology and the systems around us all embrace uncertainty and volatility.
If they are all antifragile, then the only question becomes, how can I be anti-fragile. And Mark, are you ready? Shall we jump into antifragile? One Oh one? Yeah. Let's into some practicality. Mike, we're actually going to be listening to in the next couple of clips that we've got for the show. Uh, it's a fantastic, um, curator of concepts and big ideas.
And his name is Brian Johnson. Thank you very much. Brian Johnson for. Pulling together, some of your thoughts, because we think it's a perfect way to explain some of the big ideas from antifragile and part one, we're going to listen to Brian Johnson telling us a couple of big ideas, and then let's, let's discuss them.
Shall we, Mike? All right. Let's crack into [00:31:00] it. Here's Brian Johnson. Uh, you can find him on YouTube. He's channel is optimize and you get hit with a rapid fire top five things you can do to be anti-fragile. So here we go. Top 10 big ideas. The first big idea is fragile versus robust versus antifragile.
We've talked about the idea of antifragility quite a bit in different classes, but I want to go deep here. We'll start with an overview of what those three concepts are all about. The second big idea. Challenge versus threat psychologists echo this wisdom. They say that it's how you look at something and how you perceive whatever's happening to you in your life.
That determines how you physiologically and psychologically respond to that. We'll talk about that. We'll talk about true confidence and we will talk about the fact that you've got this. The third, big idea is emotional stamina, emotional stamina. This is an idea of free. I should say that I picked up from Phil Stutz.
[00:32:00] I've been working with Phil, the author of the tools, and we'll talk how important emotional stamina is, what it is. And how to cultivate yours. When things go a little sideways, the fourth big idea is victim versus hero. Moment to moment to moment, we are either choosing to be a victim, or we are choosing to be a hero.
We want to practice with the little things. So when the big things happen, we're ready. The fifth big idea is the number one tool. In my experience to cultivate our antifragility. This is Phil stocks. Again, bring it on your infinite potential exists on the other side of your fear on the other side of your pain, therefore, we want to reverse our desire and get excited about whatever is challenging us.
Get comfortable being uncomfortable. Oh, rapid fire. I love it. Thanks Brian Johnson. You've got us going. So now Mike, here comes the fun bit. Let's dig into it. So top five [00:33:00] ideas right there. We can get into the rest in a minute. Um, I think, I think there's some big concepts there. We've covered a couple of them, so maybe we'll just very, very quickly, uh, revisit some of our favorites for me.
The thing that jumps out straight away is this concept of. You control your response. We spoke about it earlier in the show and actually Brian Johnson calls it out as, as number two, there, uh, this concept of you choose how to respond to challenges and threats. You know, this response is completely up to you or me in our day to day lives.
And. I th I think there's, I think there's something very, very empowering about that. This concept of empowerment we've obviously discussed on the show before haven't we, Mike? Yeah. Once again is perceiving events is so, so strong, so valuable. Yeah. So, so let's talk about some tools and [00:34:00] approaches to do that.
Um, something I've mentioned a couple of times, uh, which I think is really important is, um, you know, when those moments, when. Something happens maybe in a sports team where a player in a team, uh, you know, struggles with something and something goes wrong. You have a choice, you can say, Oh my gosh, Joe blogs, you miss the ball, Joe blogs, you didn't pass right.
You weren't in the defensive line correctly, whatever, whatever, um, you can choose to blame that person. Uh, Singled them out. Uh, shout at them, be angry, be frustrated at them. Or the other choice you have is to say, Hey, I'll run to help. Or maybe even better after the game, you can say, Hey, let's take a moment and do some practice runs and I'll show you how to do it.
The same thing goes with your family, [00:35:00] with your friends and your work colleagues, but particularly your work colleagues. We often find ourselves in situations where we're like. Someone let me down. And what I would really, really encourage you people to do is rather than rush to judgment is take what I call the mentor mentality.
Imagine you're their coach, you're their agent, you're their manager. And you're like, okay, what can I do to help them overcome it? So rather than sitting there and say, well, we stuffed that up because so-and-so, didn't do their job. Ask yourself what can I do? To help that person learn how to overcome that challenge completely holistically and forever.
And I think so much of that is a choice. It's how you want to perceive things. If you perceive the world as working against you. And being defensive and blaming and judging, you're going to have a really tough time, [00:36:00] but if you embrace volatility and certainly if with other people, your perception is okay, someone is struggling with something.
I am going to help them master that. I think this is an insanely practical way to embrace antifragility because it's a chance to be stronger when something breaks. But. It is our choice about whether wagon is step up and help people around us. It's our choice. If we want to put others before ourselves, I think that is such a critical choice in how we want to perceive events around us.
What do you think, do you think that helps us shift on how we want to respond to the things around us? I think what's nice about where you're, you're taking this actually is you're even building on the anti-fragile piece, which is. I choose how to I respond to that [00:37:00] situation and I will make myself, um, antifragile.
What's nice about where you're taking this in this, uh, leadership coach, mentor, um, approach that we've obviously discussed before is how can you help? How can you a identified, but also be how can you help others? Identified and build on it. How can you improve those around you as well as yourself? And I think that's so true again, it's it's that Testament to, uh, Nicholas Tellabs work.
It's so true in a variety of different situations and occasions. It's not just me on the, on the basketball court and I've missed a shot instead. It's you identifying that? Maybe I've missed that shot and both of us deciding are you deciding to encourage me to continue practicing. And that brings to mind a wonderful episode that we did a little while ago about Michael Jordan.
Doesn't it, Mike? Yeah. You know, this, this idea of practice makes [00:38:00] perfect and the resilience that it took Michael Jordan to guard on the court and work harder than some of his colleagues, some of his teammates. And he inspired those around him to go and practice as well. I think again, that's a perfect metaphor and a perfect example of antifragility isn't it.
It's Michael Jordan stepping up and whenever he goes out on court, he's. You know, even more prepared than his, his, uh, competing team. And that actually brings me back to that first clip that we heard is disruption capitalization. If you can capitalize on the uncertainties and that anxiety and own it, you can be better prepared than others around you.
Yeah, it's so true. And it's all encapsulated in the thought that we heard heard from Brian Johnson. They're talking about being the hero rather than the victim mindset, which is from way of saying, you know, embracing the uncertainty, embracing the unknown, the volatility. Um, and what's critical here is that [00:39:00] it all loads up into the key concept.
That anti-fragile, it is something. A trait, a characteristic, a behavior person, an individual, a team, or a company that gets stronger as it overcomes uncertainty and volatility. I mean said differently. Don't let a good crisis go to waste, right? Ask yourself how it can make you stronger and better. And one of the things that I try very hard to do is when things are not great is to say, Hey, This is a moment where we might be good most of the time, but let's be great.
And rather than like, Hey, so, and so you did not do that, right? We have the chance of what an amazing chance we've got to see the gap between good and great. Let's work on it together. What do you need? How can I help [00:40:00] you? Get us to great and I'll do whatever it takes that is so different to yo Joe blogs.
You didn't do it properly. I told you to do it properly. I'm really angry, right? That's the same event, two different perceptions, but most importantly, two different responses to the very same thing. I think you're totally right. And referencing Jim Collins is from good to great. I think if we revisited, uh, that book and that, that work from Jim Collins, I think that's what we will find in those companies that were great.
They were able to respond to those uncertainty. They embraced those challenges and therefore became businesses that lost it for far many more years and far more successfully than those around them. They were able to. Respond to events and, you know, eventually be faster, stronger, and better foundations and therefore be greater than businesses around them.
And I think [00:41:00] that what we can take from these first five tips before we get to the next five is this is all about just saying, all right, stuff's a bit crazy. Cool. How can we learn? Grow, build, how can we become antifragile through this? Rather than, you know, freaking out. Oh my gosh. You know, one of the classic things is every time the stock market drops significantly, everyone freaks out.
Like it's never happened before. But if you actually step back, it does it every seven to 10 years, pretty habitually. Um, when a great sporting team, you know, we talked about Michael Jordan, they won, uh, six, uh, back to back, uh, well championships, and then they haven't won one since like things go up and down.
And, um, I think just having a disposition, dispositional, like, okay. Well, I accept that things go up and down are uncertain. I didn't see that coming. Um, and just being ready to apply some of those, I think that sets you [00:42:00] on the right path, doesn't it? Yeah. It really does sets you in that right path. Again, it's up to you to make that choice, to continue down that path, but by re setting that point of view, that's where I think, you know, antifragility and this approach really, really comes to, to power.
Doesn't it? It does. So with that said where deep in to antifragile one Oh one. Let's finish it up with Brian Johnson and he's five last tips for being anti-fragile. Alright, our sixth big idea is barbells and infinite optionality. These are a couple of ideas from Nassim Taleb, great book antifragile, which is where I got this phrase.
And what we'll talk about in the first big idea. But he says that when you're looking at becoming antifragile, whether you are a government or a corporation or an individual, you want to think about a few different things. One of them is what he calls his barbell strategy. And another is to have [00:43:00] options.
If you don't have options, you're fragile. We want to create options. We wanna create infinite options. We'll talk about that. The seventh, big idea, spinny fingers, simplifying the battlefield and mr. Mo via micro wins. We're going to talk about spinning yourself around and you have two options when you spin yourself around and you get dizzy, we'll share those.
One of them brings you back to equanimity a lot faster than the other. Then we want to simplify and then create that momentum via small wins. Number eight, the Paulo, the patron got a philosophy, either wins or he learns we win, or we learn, we're going to talk about the three questions that Lanny Bassham Olympic gold medalist tells us.
We need to think about after a performance, especially one that didn't go the way we want to. If we want to be anti-fragile three questions. The ninth big idea is common humanity. And scars equals metals. First thing we need to remember [00:44:00] again, is this isn't about shame when something doesn't go the way you want.
No, that everyone feels some disappointment. It's not because it's you it's because you're human. And then we want to wear our scars like metals to Paulo Coelho line. We'll talk about the growth mindset. Vis-a-vis fixed mindset here. And the fact that Michael Jordan is the penultimate perfect embodiment of this idea.
Of wearing your scars like metals. And then the 10th big idea is our own mantra. Obstacles makes me stronger. Plus gritty boxer plus PTG post traumatic growth versus post traumatic stress disorder. There's actually a whole nother thing called adversarial growth. Use challenges as an opportunity to get better or not get crushed, but to get stronger.
Okay. Some big five more massive, big Ron Johnson, if anything, more significant than those first five, right? Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. I felt like we should've just pause just to let our [00:45:00] brains catch up just one at a time to reach idea. I mean, again, this is just building on these great concepts that we've already spoken about.
This idea of, uh, I particularly want to focus on Apollo because back in my younger days, I actually studied, uh, ancient history and, and, you know, Paulo speaks to me a lot in, in our abs work, as well as Brian Johnson's call out that this idea of wins or learns is something that I want to walk away from the show.
Having remembered and having realized, you know, every occasion, every challenge is an opportunity to either say yes, I overcame it. Okay. If I tripped, Hey, no worries. I've learned, I know how to jump a little bit high and I've learned how to approach it next time. I think that's really, really calling out to me there.
I love them. The, um, I think the, the [00:46:00] overall thing this is inspiring me to think about, um, is the book growth mindset, you know, uh, fixed versus growth mindsets. And so I'm like, Oh my gosh, we should totally, totally do a show on the growth mindset, because I think once you've accepted volatility and you're being.
The highest level of anti-fragile I think, um, it's a, it's a growth mindset as well. Um, I did want to try one last, uh, um, sort of practical, uh, tip for our listeners. And I want to take this idea of like, what would be the three questions. We could ask ourselves after we've done something at work. Um, so generally let's imagine it's like a project let's imagine it was a fairly significant thing.
[00:47:00] So maybe launching a new feature in a product, maybe it's launching a new product and new service or doing a big campaign or promotion or providing a whole new level of customer service, whatever this project is. Um, and, um, I want to pick up on the questions we should ask of ourselves. If we have an anti-fragile mindset, if we're, if we're saying the obstacles, make me stronger.
If I'm just asking how, whether the project going good or bad, or it's a mixed bag, how do I truly embrace challenge? How do I get comfortable being uncomfortable? And, um, I, I want to pursue these three questions. Um, Mark, if you were going to ask one question, let's say you've finished a big project and you were doing your own self evaluation with an antifragile mindset.
What would be the first [00:48:00] question you'd ask, I suppose, uh, the first question, the most proactive one would be what went right. What do, I mean, was it the best, the best thing about it? God would that positive. Cause I think I know where you're going to go with this and I, and I want us to get that, but I reckon the first question could be okay, well, what am I really, really pleased with that?
Something worked. Yeah. And, um, if we go to the uncomfortable, what's the opposite of that? What do I think went wrong? What can I improve on next time? This idea of perfect growth. So, all right. So good. It totally is. So I, I wanna, I wanna like, uh, if, if you are truly committed to, um, the place that you're doing, your work, the first place.
That you need to go to as yourself, but then wait for this to use this [00:49:00] agile antifragile approach, you would say, how can I improve based on the project and what I do, then you say, how can I help the team be better? And how can I better help and serve the members of the team. And this goes back to this mentor mentality that I was talking about.
And the third question you ask is, what else can I do to help the program overall, or the company overall? So you might say. I want to write users is better. Can I better help the team? I want to help someone who struggles with documenting user flows, because I know how to do that. And lastly, I think we need to have a design thinking masterclass for all of the employees at the company.
I think if you're totally embracing anti-fragile in your work, in your craft, you ask, how can I improve? [00:50:00] How can I better help the team? And what else can I do to help the company overall, three big questions. I love that reflect on yourself. Look at those around you and remember the big picture. Mm Hmm. So, how does it feel Mark we're at the end end of this lofty, hefty, uh, idea of being antifragile?
How do you feel now often we're on the other side, how does it feel? Well to be embracing antifragile, I'm really pleased with the ability to dig into what the concept means. You know, really, really lean into this idea of being antifragile and how we can learn and, uh, You know, build on the foundation that we all have in our day to day life.
Aye. Aye. Even if you don't 30 calls yourself as, as antifragile or robust, I think this is a perfect little snapshot into how to, to [00:51:00] tweak that mindset and allow yourself to build on it positively and be stronger the next time around. So true. So true. So remember that we're talking about more than resilience.
What we've been able to learn here on the last hour is just by digging into the work of Nicholas Taleb. And anti-fragile, I think we've Mark. I think this is a whole mindset, isn't it? It is. It's a, it's a totally new mindset to new new behavior. And it's one that I want to try and. Challenge ourselves with, with delivering from now on, and especially your new three questions.
I like that a lot. Um, so Mark, thank you for joining me on this roller coaster ride from macro to micro, from personal to macroeconomic. It's been fantastic. So thank you to you, Mark. Most of all, thank you to all of our listeners. [00:52:00] Um, we. Cannot thank you enough for all of your positive feedback, your reviews and your ratings.
And we certainly do welcome all of our new listeners from Nigeria, Taiwan, Israel, India, Mexico. Thank you for being part of this journey of learning from innovators and boy today, did we realize, did we come to a whole new mindset of not fearing volatility, but actually embracing the unknown and uncertainty?
And if we do that. We can not only learn more about ourselves as individuals, but also about our teams, about our companies. This can even be a way to think about how we educate, how we raise families. And at the heart of this is we make a choice that every time we made a challenge, we will overcome it and we will be stronger for it.
This is at the very core of anti-fragile. So our mindset must become. Getting [00:53:00] comfortable with the uncomfortable and embracing the challenge. So let's go out there into the world and let's make sure that we are really seeing two goes as opportunity. We don't run from them, rerun towards him. And if we do that, we can be the very best version of ourselves.
And frankly, that's what we're here to do. As we all come together on the Schutz podcast is to learn from innovators, to think out loud and to become. Very best we can be. Thanks for joining us on this adventure into Nicholas Taleb and anti-fragile, we'll see you next time on the moonshots podcast. That's a wrap.