BrenÉ Brown

Braving the wilderness

Episode 64

Braving The Wilderness (buy on Amazon) challenges common notions about what it means to belong. In this episode we look into the links of feelings of unbelonging to feelings of anger and unrest. Brené Brown uses a potent combination of scientific research and storytelling to reveal what it means to truly belong. This includes remarkable tales of pain and suffering that show just how far people are willing to go to gain a sense of belonging.

Show Outline

BELONGING

Maya Angelou Interview ORIGIN STORY
- The quote troubled Brene as she asked “What does it mean to belong?”
Real Belonging
- The research behind belonging and a definition.

BRAVING

BRAVING - LONG
- Boundaries, Reliability, Accountability, Vault, Integrity, Non-Judgement, Generosity
Boundaries
- We don’t set boundaries and let people get away with stuff. Don’t assume the worst.
BIG
- What Boundaries to stay in Integrity and be Generous?
Spiritual Crisis
- Factions and the lack of civility. We hate the same people.

BEING TRUE

Social Media and Processing Pain
- Communication, not Connection tool.
Speak Truth To BS
- Dehumanization of people.
The practice that came from the book
- “Don’t look for evidence that you don’t belong or aren’t enough.”

ABOUT THE BOOK

You can pick up Brené’s ‘Braving the Wilderness’ at all good outlets.

“True belonging doesn’t require us to change who we are. It requires us to be who we are.” Social scientist Brené Brown, PhD, LMSW, has sparked a global conversation about the experiences that bring meaning to our lives—experiences of courage, vulnerability, love, belonging, shame, and empathy. In Braving the Wilderness, Brown redefines what it means to truly belong in an age of increased polarization. With her trademark mix of research, storytelling, and honesty, Brown will again change the cultural conversation while mapping a clear path to true belonging.

Brown argues that we’re experiencing a spiritual crisis of disconnection, and introduces four practices of true belonging that challenge everything we believe about ourselves and each other. She writes, “True belonging requires us to believe in and belong to ourselves so fully that we can find sacredness both in being a part of something and in standing alone when necessary. But in a culture that’s rife with perfectionism and pleasing, and with the erosion of civility, it’s easy to stay quiet, hide in our ideological bunkers, or fit in rather than show up as our true selves and brave the wilderness of uncertainty and criticism. But true belonging is not something we negotiate or accomplish with others; it’s a daily practice that demands integrity and authenticity. It’s a personal commitment that we carry in our hearts.” Brown offers us the clarity and courage we need to find our way back to ourselves and to each other. And that path cuts right through the wilderness. Brown writes, “The wilderness is an untamed, unpredictable place of solitude and searching. It is a place as dangerous as it is breathtaking, a place as sought after as it is feared. But it turns out to be the place of true belonging, and it’s the bravest and most sacred place you will ever stand.”

TRANSCRIPT

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Mike Parsons:

Hello, and welcome to the Moonshots podcast. It's episode 64. I'm your cohost Mike Parsons. And as always I'm joined by Mr Chad Owen, who despite a little cold is ready to bring the heat. Good evening, Brooklyn.

Chad Owen:

You know me, Mike, I would never miss a recording session of Moonshots. Colds be damned.

Mike Parsons:

Those damn colds. Those damn colds. Well, I mean, we're two thirds through our Brené Brown special, but we haven't given up yet. Have we, Chad?

Chad Owen:

No, we're taking a look at her latest book called Braving The Wilderness. And boy, have we got clips for you. I think we called it down from about 20 clips today. There's always way too many clips to include on the show. We can almost have three or four-hour long episodes.

Mike Parsons:

Oh my gosh, you have thrown such a surprise on myself and all of our listeners, Chad, recommending Brené Brown, who I had no idea existed in this world until you recommended Brené. And boy, I mean, these first two shows that we've done, it's been about authenticity, it's been about vulnerability. And it's been about all these things that we never talk about at work, and maybe a little bit at home. I find it's like they're so dense and they're so rich to discuss, to consider, to reflect upon. As you said, we're not holding back for this third one. We're focusing on her book, Braving the Wilderness, and it's all about belonging. I'd love to know, Chad, before you read Braving the Wilderness by Brené Brown, and you may be had a sense it was about belonging. How did reading the book change your perspective of what it means to belong?

Chad Owen:

I'm really glad that I've been able to share Brené and her work, not just with you with, but with all of our listeners. I'm always just struck at how counterintuitive what she finds is, in her research. I think she's got very strong opinions as you've heard in the clips that we've brought on the previous shows, and it's fun for me to kind of see her go into, and do a lot of research around a particular subject and then prove herself wrong. And I think she was able to kind of prove herself wrong a little bit about what it means to belong, and so we're going to get all into belonging in this show. She's got a really cool acronym around this word braving, and even go into one of my favorite topic areas, social media...

Mike Parsons:

Oh, yes.

Chad Owen:

... And the joys and wonderful things that it brings to us in this world. Right, Mike?

Mike Parsons:

Yeah. It's so funny that we have spent so much time looking at successful leaders, both inside and outside of Silicon Valley. And trying to decode what it is that they do, and asking ourselves, how might we do it? But in the process of doing that, we've definitely come out with a starker and a view of social media, particularly if you take Cal Newport and Brené Brown together. I mean, there's almost the case for seriously tuning down our social media use.

Mike Parsons:

It's such a good conversation to have right now, and that's really the context of her book of Braving the Wilderness. It's so very timely. I wonder if we were to, before we jump into it, Chad. If we were to set ourselves an interesting challenge, which is to ask the question, why does this book and why do the thoughts around belonging, why are they so important to talk about now, whether you're trying to create a new product, build a company, or just be the best version of yourself? Why is this important to talk about now? What's your thoughts, Chad?

Chad Owen:

I think that Brené, in all of her books, certainly the ones that we've profiled here on the show. In all of her books, she gives us a really interesting novel perspective on leadership. So I think if you just kind of sprinkled the theme of leadership on top of the past two shows in this show, there's a lot that people that lead teams, or people that just lead other people can take away from this. Because, I think often leaders, the best leaders are maybe sometimes too focused on others and in serving others. And I think Brené is asking us to look inward, and be sure that we're taking care of ourselves and we're in a good place so that we can lead others better.

Chad Owen:

I think it's also just about building cultures and creating environments, where people thrive by taking care of them on this kind of emotional, woo, woo touchy feely level that many of us don't like to talk about. And so that's why I find all of her work so refreshing. And so applicable to you and I in what we're doing, and hopefully to our audience as well.

Mike Parsons:

Yeah, I think you've said it really well. I think we are in a bit of a shift away from the industrial age command and control style leader. We've had themes in past such as servant leadership, humble leadership. And I think we're definitely seeing constantly, I don't know if you've seen the recent news about the CEO of the hot startup called Away Luggage.

Chad Owen:

Oh yeah.

Mike Parsons:

He's been caught berating staff on Slack, and publicly shaming them. And it's such a perfect news item that fits perfectly to this book, because Brené Brown says, nothing ever good comes through shame. And the bigger point I'm trying to make here is that, I think where we've reached a point where I think all leaders now know that they need to care for the people around them. And I think where Brené Brown's stands alone, is that her work tells us that if we want to care for others, we need to care for ourselves first. And that's being yourself, having the courage to be vulnerable, and belonging to yourself first before you try, and fit in with everybody else. So I think her topics are wonderful, and we've been talking a lot about the previous two shows. Chad, where should all our listeners go if they'd like to check in on an old show, get some show notes, check out all our social stuff? Where is the destination?

Chad Owen:

That would be moonshots.io. You can also email us at hello@moonshots.io. Mike and I both get those emails. We love our listener feedback through the interwebs. You can also find all of our future episodes for our next author we are going to be diving into, but you'll have to stick around to the end of the show to figure out who that is.

Mike Parsons:

Okay, let's get this party started. Chad Owen, where do we want to kick off a journey, a deep rich journey into our third and last book in the Brené Brown series, it's Braving the Wilderness. What's the clip to kick it off?

Chad Owen:

We're going to have a bit of an inception moment. We'll have a clip inside of a clip here. But one of Brené's sources of inspiration is Maya Angelou, and this interviewer is playing a clip for Brené, and getting her reflections. And it's all about the big theme in the book and what it means to belong.

Interviewer:

You describe in the book that one of the things that provoked you in this concept of true belonging that kind of lingered with you was an interview between Bill Moyers and the late Maya Angelou. Here is the clip from that interview that you referenced in the book. Listen.

Maya Angelou:

Well, at some point, you only are free when you realize you belong no place, you belong every place, and no place at all. The price is high, the reward is great.

Interviewer:

That's Maya Angelou speaking to Bill Moyers in an interview on public television back in 1973. And Brené, you said in the book that when you heard that, for a long time you thought, well, that's wrong. How can somebody belong no place and every place? And something about that just raked you as not making sense.

Brené Brown:

Yeah, I'm feeling teary. I didn't know you had that clip. Yeah, it's a very powerful thing. Maya Angelou has always been a constant guide for me in my life. I discovered her 30 years ago when I was a poetry major for a brief period of time. And I every... I've, hung on every word that she has said or written, just saying just I love her work. But when I came across this quote, it actually kind of pissed me off. I was angry. Like I thought, how can someone so wise say that true freedom is belonging nowhere everywhere?

Brené Brown:

Because as someone who's always struggled with belonging, I feel like I can mark my life by not belonging. From the time I was in kindergarten, high school, college. Even now, I really struggle with belonging because I don't find a lot of other people who think like me or their jobs look like mine and I stress. So I'm like, huh, Dr. Angelou, you're wrong. It's, there's no freedom in belonging nowhere. We have to belong. And it wasn't until I... I mean, and it made me angry because I liked to ask aligning 100% on all things.

Brené Brown:

But then as I started digging into this research, there was a moment when I was sitting with my husband on the couch, and I was going through a list of speaking requests. And I came across one that said, come speak at our church, we really like you. We know you're down-home, but you cuss too much. So we need you to change the way you talk, because you'll offend the faithful. And I kind of felt bad, and I thought, Oh my gosh, I thought I belonged there because I kind of think of myself as a faithful. Then like two speaking requests later in the pile it said, hey, we're super excited to have you come talk to our company. It was a fortune 100 company. We saw you speak at this leadership summit, and you talked about your two main values being courage and faith, and we really love that. But you need to not talk about faith while you're here. We don't talk about that here.

Brené Brown:

I was like, I looked at Steven, I'm like, Oh my God, I belong nowhere. I mean, I don't... Like, am I a leadership person? Because that's actually, most people don't know this, but I spend 90% of my time kind of doing leadership development and culture change work. And so I was like, I'm not really a real leadership person clearly. And I'm obviously not a faith person, because I cuss too much. I belong nowhere. And Steve looked at me and he said, you belong anywhere where you just go and you do your work from your heart. Because every time you do that, you nail it, and you speak to people in a real way. And I was like, yeah, maybe I belong nowhere, I belong everywhere. Oh my God, wait. I was like, Oh my God, that's it. Belong everywhere, and I belong nowhere.

Brené Brown:

The thing that's powerful, Joshua, about that interview is that the clip you played was the clip that I played for my class. I actually read the segment to them, but I had never finished watching it. And so when I had this kind of epiphany moment with Steve, I ran to my study and grabbed my laptop, and found the interview on YouTube. And if you keep listening, Bill Moyer says, so you don't belong anywhere, you don't belong to anything? And Maya Angelou pauses for a second and she said, I belong to Maya, and I like Maya very much.

Chad Owen:

Yeah.

Brené Brown:

And I was like, Oh my God, that's it. Our level of belonging can never exceed our level of self worth, our level of belief in self, our level of belonging to self. And when we have that, we carry belonging with us in our heart.

Mike Parsons:

Wooo, weee, Chad Owen, did you lead stronger?

Chad Owen:

Yeah.

Mike Parsons:

Oh damn. That was, that's pretty awesome [crosstalk 00:12:56].

Chad Owen:

And bittersweet symphony there on the end of the...

Mike Parsons:

Oh my gosh. I relate so much to what she said then, like to give you an example. When I think about place... I was born in Sydney and grew up in Australia, but spent 16 years of my career; 10 in Europe and six in the US. So I come back to Australia, and they're like, geez, you sound and look different. Jeez, do you have a different point of view? So...

Chad Owen:

Yeah, they say your son has an American accent. He's not even talking like an Aussie.

Mike Parsons:

Yeah. So well, who am I? Am I an Aussie-American, a Dutchman, an Englishman? Because, actually every single one of those cultures look at me as saying, well, you're not quite from here. So where am I from? So, I think that's just an example. And I'm sure Chad, this is resonant for you because like you were born... You are a total Brooklynite, but you're not from Brooklyn. You're from Texas, right?

Chad Owen:

Yeah. You almost got a little bit of Texas twang there, Mike.

Mike Parsons:

So, well, then who are you, and where do you belong?

Chad Owen:

Right. Well, yeah, I think this is a universal experience. I think if all of us look back, there was some point in our childhood, or adolescence or teenage years where we were frustrated with life and the world, and didn't feel like we belonged anywhere. And this hour that Maya Angelou is pointing to owning that, I think is really special. What Brené does through her book is really give us some of the kind of practical ways of thinking about things. Even like a little bit of a philosophy, and how we might better belong.

Chad Owen:

And kind of paradoxically, it's like by not belonging, we're belonging. And it's kind of like the snake eating its own tail sort of thing. But I just love how, to me, how much I relate to that story. Relate to Brené's experience, but also Maya Angelou's experience of just feeling like you belong but also don't.

Mike Parsons:

Yeah. And as always, Brené Brown what we have marveled at with her, she took Cal Newport's research and data informed approach. She has taken this to a whole new level. In fact, this next clip, she's going to get into some of the thinking behind it, and really defining what real belonging is. So let's have a listen to Brené Brown talking about the research behind belonging, and perhaps even giving us a definition.

Interviewer:

One of the things that we should definitely get into as we continue our conversation with Brené Brown on her book, Braving the Wilderness is some of what you've learned through your research about some of these principles, particularly this idea of true belonging. Now you describe yourself as a qualitative researcher rather than a quantitative researcher. Meaning, you have people kind of tell their stories, and you draw patterns from their stories. Give me your definition of what you call true belonging as you learned from your research.

Brené Brown:

It actually surprised me. I mean, my research has a tendency just to kick my butt for about a year and a half, and challenge everything that I'm doing in my own life. And then I write about it once I can see straight again. And so I always thought troubel, I always thought belonging was something we negotiate externally. I always thought it was about being a part of something bigger than us. And as it turns out, true belonging is very much a spiritual practice. And it's about belonging to yourself, and believing in yourself so deeply that you find sacred, both being a part of something, but also standing alone when called to do that. And I think the thing that I love most about true belonging is when we really belong, we're never asked to change who we authentically are. We're at... It demands, belonging demands that we be who we are.

Brené Brown:

And so, for me, the big ahas in this research were the fact that sometimes true belonging requires standing alone. And that assessing situations and groups of people, and then acclimating to fit in is a huge barrier to real belonging.

Chad Owen:

The fitting in as a barrier to belonging is really interesting, because I would almost have defined belonging as fitting in.

Mike Parsons:

Yeah, and that's where you called it out at the beginning, Chad, how there's a tension in her insights because they disrupt what you know to be true. And I think what you're digging up here is just a classic example of that. What she's demonstrating to us is that we make all these concessions on who we really are to try, and fit in and to be part of the crowd. Her whole body of work goes to show love yourself, accept yourself for who you really are, and you'll find that others will love you for that. And actually the big compromise is the attempt of fitting in.

Chad Owen:

Yeah. And it's interesting even as I'm unpacking the language in my mind right now, belonging is a much more kind of like a state of being, and fitting in is more of like an active sort of word. And so that the act of fitting in and changing who we are makes it not belonging, and she says belonging demands that we be who we are, which I think is really interesting. Because certainly in the work context, we can often find ourselves becoming someone else when we go to work, and then kind of reverting back to ourselves when we get home.

Chad Owen:

And I think even at work with different groups or cliques, you can become someone different to fit into those different cliques. And so I think, for me, this is just kind of telling me to be a bit more mindful about how much I'm fitting in versus how much I'm blind.

Mike Parsons:

I'm so there. Like my life, as I mentioned, geographically has been in four different countries. So already, I'm so acutely aware of fitting in and belonging. I think when we arrived in Amsterdam in 2000, I think I may have met five or six people that came from Netherlands, and all of them were related to my job, of course. And so I'm so acutely aware of this, and perhaps that's why I relate to it a lot. But also in my own attempt, and it's nothing more than an attempt. I wouldn't say I'm any master at this, that what I discovered some seven years ago is that I wanted to just be the person that I was, and do the stuff that I love most. And I didn't want to end up being some exec, wire up the totem pole in some monolithic advertising holding company. That wasn't the world that I chose for, that wasn't me.

Mike Parsons:

And that has brought to me so much goodness in life, because maybe it's just, I feel more comfortable in my own skin than I ever have. I'm not saying I've reached the point of utopia. But that was a big turning point in my life to say, you know what? I'm just going to try, and be a little bit brave, and just do stuff that I know is what I'm born to do.

Chad Owen:

Yeah. And I think now as we move into kind of the middle part of the show, we're going to kick it off with a clip that it's kind of a, encapsulation of the entire book in one acronym. So bear with us here, it's a lengthy... Yeah.

Mike Parsons:

It's long.

Chad Owen:

It's a lengthy clip. But I think she's talking about all the important kind of attributes and values that we can be come more mindful of as we're becoming aware of, and what it means to belong, and maybe not compromise so much. But here's Brené breaking down the seven parts of braving.

Brené Brown:

Braving is the acronym we use. B, is boundaries. You set boundaries. When you don't know what they are, you ask, you're clear about what's okay and not okay. Which is as you know, so hard for people. Yeah, boundaries are really hard. Reliability is the R, you do what you say and you say what you do. The big hard thing about reliability is you're not hustling for worthiness, so you're not completely over-committing and not delivering. Yes, that's the reliability issue. A, is accountability. You don't back channel and blame. You hold people accountable in a straightforward way. V, which I think is really interesting is the vault.

Speaker 6:

Oh, the vault. Can we talk about the vault for a second?

Brené Brown:

Yeah, the vault.

Speaker 6:

The vault is so huge because in this culture and in this time, I say this with my friends all the time, like I'm going to tell you something and it's got to stay in the vault. It has to stay in the vault. And once that goes, if anyone violates that, and I've had it happen before, something shuts down in me.

Brené Brown:

Oh it does. It's hard to come back from it. What people don't understand about the vault that's really interesting to me too is that, you call me in, and you see what I'm saying? I don't understand why I got the position. You say, look, we've got some trust issues that we need to work through specifically, I want to talk about confidentiality in the vault. And I look at you and like Marie, I've never shared a single thing that you have told me in the 10 years we've known each other. And you look back at me and say, yes, but you come in here on a regular basis and share things with me that are not yours to share. It's the other side of confidentiality. It is not only do you not talk out of school between us. You don't come in here and say, hey, look, I know what's going on with John, bla, bla.. This is what's happening with...

Brené Brown:

Because when I do that, and I do that to get connection with you. I do that as a bid for connection, let me tell you what's going on that you don't know about. But when I walk out of the office, you trust me less because I'm using stories that are not mine as currency.

Speaker 6:

Yes.

Brené Brown:

So, we've got the vault. Then we go to I, integrity, which is choosing courage over comfort, practicing your values. And this is a big one. I think we have this in common, and I love this about you. It's choosing what's right over what's fun, fast and easy. We have a culture of fun, fast and easy. We have a culture of people who don't do discomfort and that's, I've never achieved a single thing in my career or life comfortably.

Speaker 6:

Absolutely, 100%.

Brené Brown:

Yeah. And then we go to N, for non-judgment. You can ask for help without feeling judged, and I can ask for help without judging myself. And then generosity, which I think is probably the biggest, hardest one for me sometimes, which is when something happens, I assume positive intent. So if things go sideways between us, I'm like, damn it, Marie, I'm so pissed off. I go and say, let me assume the best. Help me understand what happened, Marie, I thought we had a plan around this. And I give you a chance, the benefit of the doubt before I launch into my anger.

Speaker 6:

Yeah, I think that one's probably the most difficult for me as well. The one I can see, where I instantly jump to conclusions, or I can watch my mind go to the worst possible scenario. I did with my family the other night.

Mike Parsons:

Here's the question, Chad, which one of the these boundaries, reliability, accountability, the vault, integrity, non-judgment and generosity of those acronyms of braving that all helped pass belong better? Which one do you struggle with the most?

Chad Owen:

I think I struggle the line between reliability and accountability, which if you know me it might sound a bit strange. But I think it comes...

Mike Parsons:

Yes. Yes.

Chad Owen:

... To the fact that I'm an over committer, and so I will often over commit in all areas of life. It's like, Oh yeah, I'll see you on Friday night, and then I'll see you on Saturday, and then I'll see you on Sunday. And then before I know it, I turn around to my wife...

Mike Parsons:

You're exhausted.

Chad Owen:

... And it's like, whoops, I forgot to spend any time with, or scheduling the time with the most important person. It's like, oh-oh. And yeah, being held accountable to that over-commitment. So ,I think I have a little bit of an easier time with some of the others. How about you?

Mike Parsons:

I'm totally non-judgment, totally. One of the biggest struggles all my life is jumping to negative conclusions about the behaviors of others. So one of the things that I found in my journey was a quote from the Dalai Lama, which was, not to assume malice upon others. And that was the first time I had like a, whoa. And this is something that Brené talks about a lot, what if everybody is trying their best? Like you cannot assume that they're trying to make a mistake, or they're trying to underperform. If you assume everybody, he's coming from a good, and so therefore rather than jumping to conclusions and being negative, very judgmental. Maybe you just take a breath and go, okay, I know that this person has good intentions. This thing didn't work properly, or we didn't deliver the thing when we said we would, let's approach it from a, hey, I know you tried. And there's another great saying around this, which is never judge a man because you never know the battles he is fighting.

Chad Owen:

Yeah, I think what's at the heart of those is compassion. And you said the Dalai Lama, and that's like the first word that comes to mind. We have an interesting clip here, actually that's kind of talking precisely to both of those sayings that you bring up, Mike, as Brené is kind of elaborating on what she means when she says setting boundaries.

Brené Brown:

One of the most shocking findings of my work was the idea that the most compassionate people I have interviewed over the last 13 years were also the absolutely most boundaried.

Interviewer:

Most boundaried?

Brené Brown:

Because they... So, I'll give you a great definition of the definition of boundary that I use in the book, boundary is simply what's okay and what's not okay. What I think we do is we don't set boundaries. We let people do things that are not okay, or get away with behaviors that are not okay, then we're just resentful and hateful. Me, I'd rather be loving, and generous and very straight forward with what's okay and what's not okay. And I did not. That I learned from the research, I was the exact opposite. I assumed for the first 35 years of my life that people were sucking on purpose just to piss me off, that's what I assumed.

Brené Brown:

That, yeah. Right. Whether it was someone who worked for me or it was someone who, a family member who is constantly, and who's always critical and judgy. And I was like, why are they choosing these things? Why are they making their choices? They should know better. And then when this thing came up from my therapist, what if people are doing the best they can? I thought my husband had the most beautiful answer to that question. He said, "I'll never know whether people are doing the best they can or not. But when I assume people are, it makes my life better." So now I think I am not as sweet as I used to be, but I'm far more loving.

Mike Parsons:

Well, there it is. I sort of kind of set that one up pretty well. But I think the thing we're starting to get into here for our listeners is like if there's a new habit that you can build here is, just don't assume worst in others. And the way I would try and sell this idea to people is it just cost so much energy to get angry, and to get judgmental and to get vindictive. And invariably, people who are unable to do the right thing or people who are having a challenge, what I would pitch to people is when you enter into that conversation in a non judgmental, not assuming the worst mode, you will find that you're actually able, you'll have permission to get to the heart of the issue a whole lot quicker, and get to a resolution in a positive way forward a whole lot quicker. Because if you do go into these conversations judgmentally, well, then the first thing that the other person is going to do is put up the barriers, aren't they? They're just going to put up the defense.

Chad Owen:

Yeah. When I'm taking away from this around boundary settings, what is okay and what is not okay is actually quite practical. I've sort of started to do it, I'd say like in the last two months. We want to give a shout out to Daniel Steelman, fellow facilitator out there that turned me onto this practice. Where essentially anytime you get together with a team in doing any kind of work, whether that's something as simple as a meeting or you're taking on a big project. Just simply go around and set some of your boundaries like, what is okay and what's not okay. So for me it's not okay for someone to be on their phone when I'm having a conversation with them, and I'll say that so that, it's not a surprise when I get irritated when I'm having a conversation with you and you have your phone out.

Chad Owen:

I mean, it can be very serious or it can be kind of very interpersonal. It's really up to you and your team's working style. But I think at the beginning of any kind of project or endeavor, that's actually a really helpful exercise. Because in what Brené is saying is like, it just builds up resentment amongst the parties. And so I think you can short circuit a lot of disfunctions in a team if you just are really clear at the outset what is okay and what's not okay. And just kind of come to and consent to what is okay.

Mike Parsons:

Yeah. It's what a great tool at home or at work because if you are to use Brené Brown stepping into the arena, things are not going to go exactly how you plan. So there's going to be some problems, there's going to be some tough conversations. So, not assuming the worst and setting that boundary is fantastic. But it kind of leads us towards these ideas of generosity and integrity, and how we want to conduct ourselves. And I think it's so interesting, Chad. Isn't it? We find ourselves with everything that Brené Brown brings, it's almost like it's a door into more thoughts, more ideas on how not only we can interact with others. But how we have to almost sort ourselves out first before we can really be our best with others.

Chad Owen:

Yeah, she's going to drop another acronym on us. But I think it's elaborating, yeah, on the idea of boundaries and how it maybe touches on some of the ideas that she talked about in braving.

Brené Brown:

So my question is big, BIG. What boundaries need to be in place for me to stay in my integrity, and make the most generous assumptions about you? But generosity can't exist without boundaries, and we are not comfortable setting boundaries. Because we care more about what people will think, and we don't want to disappoint anyone, we want everyone to like us and boundaries are not easy. But I think they're the key to self love, and I think they're the key to treat others with love and kindness.

Interviewer:

To sustain.

Brené Brown:

To sustain. You can't, nothing is sustainable without boundaries.

Chad Owen:

Nothing is sustainable without boundaries, I think that's my favorite part of that clip.

Mike Parsons:

And do you, when you think about these boundaries, let's set ourselves this challenge, if, what would our listeners do differently now knowing what we know so far, which is, we've talked about belonging is not about fitting in. It's about being yourself. And there's this braving framework, and we're focused a lot on the B, the boundaries. What's the habit or the thing that they need to do to adopt in order to make this boundary setting come alive?

Chad Owen:

I'll go back to my previous statement, and I think we need to talk about the boundaries more and make them more explicit in and known.

Mike Parsons:

So if there are things in the interactions that our listeners have with others that don't make them feel good, then rather than them holding those in, actually share, hey, when we're chatting, can you please put the phone away? When we're chatting, can you pause the television?

Chad Owen:

Yeah.

Mike Parsons:

I mean, those are very simple things. But it could also be when I'm talking, please let me finish and listen to what I have to say. I mean, it could be stuff like that.

Chad Owen:

Well. Yeah, I love that one. Another one that I've proposed but haven't quite gotten agreement to is like, when I'm with some of my family members, agree to not talk about another family member when, or a family member and their partner when they're not there.

Mike Parsons:

Right. Because that's interesting because she actually talks about that when you get something shared with you that shouldn't be shared with others, then when you share that, that confidential or that, those thoughts and they're not in the room, actually what you're setting is a message to others, that I'm going to be talking about you when you're not in the room. And so it actually...

Chad Owen:

Yeah, which breeds that distrust.

Mike Parsons:

Distrust.

Chad Owen:

Yes.

Mike Parsons:

And so unknowingly, you might think it's fine because the person's not in the room to talk about them. But are there anyone else who's in the room and you're talking about the person not in the room, you're sending a message to those that are literally in the room. You're saying, when you're not here, I'll be talking about you.

Chad Owen:

Yeah. But I don't want to gloss over the one you mentioned though, Mike, that when we're talking I want to be able to finish before you interrupt me. Because how many interactions is that not the case? Like most of them, probably.

Mike Parsons:

Oh my gosh. It is, and it's about being patient. And what I've also learned in all facets of life is sometimes process of just talking it through and repeating somethings is part of people coming to terms with the idea or with the implications. To say differently, I know we've got to talk it through again because this is your way of getting your head around it. Like I might be like, yeah, I got it. Let's move on. But for this person, they just need to talk it through. They need to revisit, relay the foundation of the thinking before they can move forward. And I have a temptation to skip and not let them finish.

Mike Parsons:

But what I've learned is actually if they need to go back restate what I might be saying, this is the obvious. They're just saying, I might know it, but I haven't believed it, or I haven't understood it yet and that's why they need to talk about it. And that helps me shut the hell up sometimes.

Chad Owen:

Yeah. But I think there's so many things. She gives a great definition of boundary, what's okay and what's not okay. So just saying one thing that's okay and one thing that's not okay in that interaction that you're having with that person can go a long ways. And again, kind of bringing it back to the team environment. For me, it's not okay for someone to not get a voice when it comes to that particular meeting. So even if I'm not leading that meeting, I will point to or call on someone who's not been able to speak. Maybe because someone else has been dominating that conversation. Again, that's another way to set that boundary and say, it's not okay for someone to be silenced in this particular environment.

Mike Parsons:

Exactly. Exactly. So, how powerful? Like if there was one thing on the show today that all of our listeners can take, it's, I love this, like what's okay and what's not? Setting the boundaries is something that Brené Brown brings to life for us. She sets the context, the implications. And Gee, Chad, I mean, we've only done the B of the brave, and there's still the right [crosstalk 00:38:36].

Chad Owen:

Yeah. Unfortunately, we don't have enough time nor the clips to go all the way through, but we're kind of moving into the consequences of not living into these values and these attributes. She even calls it a spiritual crisis, and I'll just play this clip. But you can see how she's got a really interesting interpretation of the current zeitgeists, if you will, and kind of explaining why everything is kind of broken up into so many different tribes.

Interviewer:

There's a line in braving the wilderness. I read the book and there's one of the early things that you talk about in terms of the spiritual crisis we're in. You wite, " The world feels high lonesome and heartbroken to me right now. We've sorted ourselves into factions based on our politics and ideology. We've turned away from one another, and toward blame and rage. We're lonely and untethered and scared, so damn scared." What's the connection that you're trying to draw between today's lack of civility and the sense of true belonging?

Brené Brown:

Well, here's the thing that I found shocking. Is that the very same time we are sorting ourselves into ideological factions and bunkers, and the research shows that shows us clearly not just my research, but everyone who studies social science shows that we are in factions. Literally the way we live, worship, go to school. At the same time, we've sorted ourselves into these factions, we are becoming increasingly lonelier. Like, you would think the factions would at least deliver on some good connection with like minded people. But the truth is we are bunkered up and lonely, because the connection that happens between those bunkers is not authentic connection. It's what I call common enemy intimacy. We just hate the same people.

Interviewer:

Yeah.

Brené Brown:

I had no intention of writing about this kind of polarized culture that we live in right now. But as it turns out, you can't write a book on connection and belonging without being really honest about how difficult it is today given the level of vitriol and mean spiritedness. And so as I started talking about belonging and the research and getting into it, I thought when I interview people today, they always talk about it. They always talk about how hard it is, because imagine if part of belonging is the courage to stand alone and belong to yourself first. Not to betray your own ideas and values when you're with a group of people, how difficult that's become in the last year?

Mike Parsons:

Wow. Does she sort of capture the zeitgeists right now, particularly in the US where everybody is either red or blue, Trump or Pelosi, in page or not in page. I mean it is, that lack of civility has come from that kind of, the conversation has descended to who are our common enemies, and let's build factions around what we hate? Very powerful. Very, very powerful observation.

Chad Owen:

It was hard for me at first to understand what she was meaning when she was unpacking the Maya Angelo quotes in that, belonging is belonging to every thing, and belonging to no one or nothing. I didn't understand how belonging connected to standing or being alone. But when she's talking about these factions and how we've split into these bunkers, as she says, that's actually when she said bunkers, the visual that came to my mind was the, there's this great film called Joyeux Noel. I'm probably butchering the French, but it's essentially Merry Christmas. But tells a story of the French and the Germans in the trenches in World War One, where one soldier starts to sing a Christmas Carol, and that literally brings the soldiers out of their bunkers.

Chad Owen:

So that was just like the stark image for me is that, when everyone's broken up into their factions, I think the ability or courage, to borrow one of her words, the courage of a single individual to go out and kind of stand on their own, share their own ideas and maybe their own perspective. Just not just kind of toeing the party line, can have a really powerful effect in moving. Maybe if not moving those two factions closer together, at least actually forcing them to actually communicate and connect with one another. So that's where that clip took me.

Mike Parsons:

Yeah. I love it. And what I also like is like, when you take on board some of her other thoughts around generosity and non-judgment, is, it already orientates you towards finding a common ground. At some point, we're all human. So there you go, there is a common ground. Let's build on that, what else have we got? Oh, we like to enjoy a clean and civil society. Great. All right, let's move on. You want to take care of the world and the environment in which we live in. Okay, sounds good. We want companies to kind of do the right thing. Okay. Hey, actually we've got quite a lot of common ground.

Mike Parsons:

And so, I think that's the power of the non-judgment. That if you just lean into that a bit more, avoid assuming the worst and giving people a chance, I think that's the way out. But it pinpoints, I think exactly why we've got to, the lack of civility people have got in those bunkers. And I think the work that Brené is doing is showing us whether in our work environments, or in the office, at home, or in society, I think she's kind of setting up for us a pathway in which we can just be better at this thing called being humans.

Chad Owen:

Yeah. I loved her academic term, the common enemy intimacy.

Mike Parsons:

I know.

Chad Owen:

Which is just another way of saying the enemy of my enemy is my friend, but it's very true. Like those connections ring very hollow. If all you have in common is that you hate someone else, how real is that connection with that other person? Because it's so adversarial and focused on the other, is you're not actually turning to and speaking to one another to as you said, kind of find your common grounds.

Mike Parsons:

Very true, very true. But it doesn't stop there, we've got a few more clips to bring it home where it's not all doom and gloom. We've entered our valley of darkness and we are about to ascend out of it, and we're going to start with reframing, I think is best said, how we might think about some of the tools that we are as a society, a little bit hooked on. The dopamine effect is taking place, we're getting our social media hit. But I think Brené Brown has some powerful thoughts on how we might think about social media, and how we might set it up in our minds and in our lifestyle as a tool that we use. So, let's have a listen to Brené Brown on social media.

Interviewer:

Paul emailed us, how much does social media play in this bunkering and loneliness? Reality is being made by the biggest mouth with the baddest attitude, lonely indeed. I jumped off of all social media so that I can enjoy life the way it was when I was a child. We met people on an even playing field. Brené.

Brené Brown:

He's right. I mean, we have started to use social media as a place to process pain, and communication with other people is not the place we should be processing pain. And so one of the things that I write about in the book is that social media is great if we use it as a communication tool, but it's not a connection tool.

Chad Owen:

Social media as a communication tool, not a connection tool.

Mike Parsons:

And could you imagine if we had Cal Newport and Brené Brown in a room together with us? We could say, look, you guys are so connected in your thinking. Check it out.

Chad Owen:

Yeah, I never would have suspected. It's one of the joys of recording this podcast and doing all the research with you, Mike is too unlikely thought leaders that are coming to very similar conclusions, and reaffirming conclusions.

Mike Parsons:

Now, if our listeners are wondering about Cal Newport, you can go and find all our Cal Newport shows on moonshots.io, or in your pod catcher. But I do really want to share this tip, having done that show on Carl has encouraged me. I have actually taken all social media off my home screen on my iPad, and on my iPhone, and it's all buried away in a folder. And you will not believe Chad, I think I use social media less now. I have a factor of 70% less, just because I think it's when it's sitting there on the homepage, how can you not say... I mean, you're just like, Ooh, dopamine hit, click. What's happening? Click. So...

Chad Owen:

Yeah. But Cal tells you to delete it entirely. I would challenge you to just get it, get it right off that device. And this is where you and Cal are on your own chat.

Mike Parsons:

You guys are hardcore, your monks, you're the real monks amongst us. I'm just a a halfway house on that one.

Chad Owen:

Yeah, well, I just, I think I'm allergic to the factions.

Mike Parsons:

Yeah. Me too, I hate it.

Chad Owen:

It's just, it's too much for me.

Mike Parsons:

And on the other side, you know the famous a young girl, Gretta, I even find that traumatic even just to listen to all of that. Regardless of the message, it's just, no. It just doesn't work for me. I just find it such a polarized conversation. But Brené Brown doesn't stop at saying, hey, reframe the tool. I think she's encouraging us to speak our real thoughts, isn't she?

Chad Owen:

Yeah. To help us understand what she means by belonging to nothing or no one is, she has this idea of speaking truth to be asked, which is a fantastic kind of Texas sort of way to phrase something. But it's actually much deeper than that, and how sometimes the way we communicate isn't even really acknowledging our shared humanity. So, here's Brené talking about speaking truth to BS.

Brené Brown:

Speak truth to BS but be civil. And so when I think when we see hateful BS on social or in person, we need to speak truth to it while maintaining our civility. One of the scariest trends that I see right now, not just here, but globally, is rampant dehumanization of people. We, every genocide in recorded history has started with dehumanization. And every dehumanization effort has started simply with language, what we call each other, the names we call each other. And dehumanization is a tool, and I'll tell you why we use it. We use it because we're actually not biologically wired for cruelty toward each other. We are not wired for hatred, violence, rape, murder, beating. We're not wired for it.

Brené Brown:

And so in order to allow ourselves to do it, to be cruel to other people, the first step is that we have to dehumanize them, so we can push people we hate outside of the circle of protected humanity. And what you see from the right and the left right now are people using language that pushes people outside of humanity. And so when I see that kind of stuff on social, I will just delete you because it's not a political debate. It's a debate about humanity, what side of humanity are you on?

Mike Parsons:

Ooh, she's swinging. She's swinging, but it's so true. I mean, this for me is like, Oh, part of how you can lead, how you can belong in the right way, which is, a common thing is you may have heard the saying, don't drop to their level. And I think this idea of dehumanizing people, it's sort of breaking some Cardinal rule. Like, we should always respect each other and find common ground around the fact we are human.

Chad Owen:

And that it doesn't have to be quite as extreme as maybe the genocide examples that she's bringing up. I'll bet those are very important lessons to learn. But I think as we go about our day to day, oftentimes we like to lump groups of people together. It could be, oh, the engineers, or oh, management, or oh... We kind of label a group of people. And I think what she's pointing to is like the lack of the specificity of the individual, and the person and the human, which can get lost when you use labels like that. And so for me, kind of what I'm taking from this clip, I mean aside from the fact that, yeah, there's some really deep lessons to be learned about the language and how it's used to dehumanized others.

Chad Owen:

I think a bit closer to home for me is like just be wary of labels that you apply to groups of people, because that is also, maybe to a slightly lesser degree that's a, it's still a dehumanizing and de-individualizing sort of thing to say.

Mike Parsons:

It is. It is. So they haven't... So we've got like social media, think of it as a communication tool. Not as a connection tool, and speak truth to BS. We are all people, humans, moving bodies and always elevate the conversation with that, that braving framework of boundaries, and reliability and so on.

Mike Parsons:

So what I think we've got to now is a point that kind of reminds us that if we want to belong, that really kind of starts with being present inside of yourself and being the person that you are. And then when you think about sharing you as a person with the world, there's really important things like not assuming the worst, and how setting boundaries of what's okay and what's not okay can set you up for a better conversation, and particularly when you respect the fact that we're all human, this is where things really get moving. But we've got one last thought, don't we, Chad from Brené Brown?

Chad Owen:

Yeah. In the interest of leaving us with some very practical advice things, that we can all go back and apply in our day today. Brené is just going to share a practice that comes straight from the book, that's one of her favorites, and we will leave you with that same practice.

Brené Brown:

There's this part from Braving the Wilderness that it really changed me. It's the practice that came from the book. And it is, don't walk through the world looking for evidence that you don't belong because you'll always find it. Yes, don't walk through the world looking for evidence that you're not enough because you'll always find it. Our worth and our belonging are not negotiated with other people. We carry those inside of our hearts. And so, for me, I know who I am. I'm clear about that, and I'm not going to negotiate that with you. I will negotiate a contract with you, I will negotiate maybe even a topic with you, but I'm not going to negotiate who I am with you. Because then, and this is I think the heart of the book. Then I may fit in for you, but I no longer belong to myself, and that is a portrayal I am not willing to do anymore. I spent the first 30 years of my life doing that. I'm not willing to betray myself anymore to fit in with you. I just can't do it.

Mike Parsons:

Yeah, don't try and fit in because you end up becoming the person that you're not. That is... I mean, and there's a lot of big thoughts in this book, but that's got to be... Chad, it has got to be right up there, doesn't it?

Chad Owen:

Yeah. T to not negotiate who you are.

Mike Parsons:

But you thought you were doing the right thing because you were just trying to say the right things, wear the right things, listen to the right music just so[crosstalk 00:55:35].

Chad Owen:

Yeah, or create the right people.

Mike Parsons:

Yeah.

Chad Owen:

Powerful stuff, huh?

Mike Parsons:

Yeah.

Chad Owen:

Yeah. I'm so thrilled to hear the reaction both from you, Mike and our listeners to Brené Brown. I've been a fan boy of hers for quite some time. Ever since I saw her TEDx Houston talk. It's got to be at least six years ago now. And unfortunately, we only did three of her books. But I think it's more than enough to draw some excellent knowledge from Brené and to you, and the listeners.

Mike Parsons:

It's so cool too because she's like, yeah, I'm this researcher on vulnerability, authenticity, and I'm meant to be the expert researching about it. But all her research provoked, not only new insights about data and the science, but she confronted herself with her own behaviors. Like, it evoked this whole personal journey she wasn't even expecting, and she's so open about it. I suppose so great. She's just like, well, I realized I wasn't doing half the stuff I should have been doing. How great is that, that someone in her position and of her status now is capable of saying, you know what guys? This has been as tough for me as I'm sure it's been for all of you.

Chad Owen:

Yeah. Yeah, and I would highly encourage everyone to pick up any of her books. They're fantastic. You can start with the books that we've profiled here on the show. Or for all of your Netflix subscribers out there, she has a Netflix special. It's very good. It's kind of like an extended TED talk. It'll make you laugh. It'll make you cry. It's very good. And we're just going to continue on the author train, aren't we here, Mike?

Mike Parsons:

Well, it's hard to get off it. We get a lot of good feedback, which we really appreciate. Actually, one of our listeners, Ryan here in Australia, sent me a message just with the Roosevelt quote, the man in the arena speech. And that's all he had to send me. And I was like, I hear you brother. I hear you brother. It was such a great note to receive. And as we said in the last year, we've been getting lots of people reaching out either about Brené or Cal, and we still get messages from listeners about Simon...

Chad Owen:

Simon Sinek,

Mike Parsons:

... The heavyweight champion of the show.

Chad Owen: