brené brown

The gifts of imperfection

episode 62

SHOW TRANSCRIPT

We are experimenting with the benefits of providing transcriptions for our podcasts, and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Here’s the show in audio format.

Do you think transcriptions are useful? What do you want to see? How can we improve?

Please send your thoughts to us via hello@moonshots.io.

Mike Parsons:
Hello and welcome to the Moonshots Podcast. It's a super duper episode 62. I'm your cohost Mike Parsons. And as always I'm joined by our Traveling Wilbury, Mr. Chad Owen. Good evening.

Chad Owen:
Hey Mike, glad to be here and kickoff another author series here with you.

Mike Parsons:
I know, and we have to tell our listeners that this was a Chad Owen recommendation. This was an author I hadn't known. And I've been delighted to dive into the world of her ideas, and they're pretty challenging, pretty meaty stuff. So, I got to say, Chad, you have brought something to the table in a serious way here. Tell us a bit more about this wonderful writer we're going to dig into.

Chad Owen:
I first came across her in a Ted talk that she gave and like how I discovered Simon Sinek as well, an audience favorite, and a Mike and Chad favorite. The only subject that you and I have gotten to meet in person together, in fact, here in New York City-

Mike Parsons:
That's right. How great what that? How great was that?

Chad Owen:
... We had an opportunity to get together with Simon at a book signing. Yeah, it was really fun. And you've got the selfie to prove it too.

Mike Parsons:
I do, indeed. Yeah. We have our own Simon's selfie. We felt like we were like the entourage, right? Just groupies hanging out with Simon.

Chad Owen:
Yeah. But to get back to the author, we're going to be diving into here in the next few episodes. I first came across Brené Brown on a Ted talk that she gave, and she's a fellow Texan, so I was won over quite soon by her colloquialisms. But Brené I think is a really interesting author to bring here. Maybe a bit unexpected for some of you out there, but I can't recommend her books and her thinking and her mindset shifts that she encourages all of us to make. I can't recommend her enough. So, I'm really excited to dive in here today. And one of the first books that she wrote out of academia, The Gifts of Imperfection.

Mike Parsons:
And let's put her into context, and this is really good for me to go through because obviously you're very familiar with her. Well, the first thing is, The Gifts of Imperfection is breaking all sorts of records. It has 4,200 reviews averaging in a four and a half out of five on Amazon. So, that's gotta be a proxy for something good. It's pretty huge, and her subsequent books are wildly popular as well. I think Chad, what's interesting for me as being really new to her work was that I think if I make the case to myself and to the list listeners like, "Okay, she talks a lot about what we fear, about having courage, about resilience. And she talks a lot about these really powerful topics that really get to the sources of our motivations in some of our behaviors."

Mike Parsons:
I'm going to present to you my best attempt at explaining why she matters, and I want you to build on this and tell me if I'm on track. I think what we're going to learn together on the show getting into The Gifts of Imperfection by Brené Brown, is this book tackles all those little voices that we have in our head, all those fears and uncertainties. And they often either lead us to do some strange things or maybe block us from realizing something bigger in life.

Mike Parsons:
So for me, she's incredibly wise. And what I like is she's not trying to be a social justice warrior. She's not trying to signal her virtues here. She's like a wise study of the things that block us, that stop us from being the best version of ourselves. And today it's really getting deep into some of the dark moments, some of those negative voices we have in our heads when we've made the choice to go out in the world and try and really do something.

Mike Parsons:
I mean she talks a lot about if you really show up or even to steal from one of her other book titles, If You Dare to be Great. And I think that everything she talks about is some of those dark moments that you face when you really try and make the most of life.

Chad Owen:
One of my favorite parts about her is she's an academic, she's a doctor. She's got a PhD. And everything that ... While she's talking about very what you might call a touchy feely or soft skills, it's backed by a hard data science and research. And she's someone that has spent at least a decade studying things that maybe we haven't turned this attention to in such a rigorous and academic fashion. So, when she's talking about things like shame and vulnerability, all those like little voices inside of our head, it's not just conjecture, it's based in hard data and science, which I think is what really makes her message powerful is she's combining the abstractness of how we feel with the hard data and science and approach of an academic, and a researcher.

Chad Owen:
I mean, that's why I'm excited to present her work here to the listeners, and go on this learning journey here with you, Mike, as we dive into not just this book, but a few of her newer books as well.

Mike Parsons:
Fantastic. I'm ready to dive into a world of a bit of reflection, maybe exposing some thoughts that we don't often share. And I think innovation is a team sport, so we don't often talk about or reflect on how we feel and how we feel about others and how we connect with others. So, I'm primed and I'm ready, Chad. Where do we start?

Chad Owen:
We start with one of my favorite quotes that also is one of her favorite quotes. So again, I feel like I'm a bit of a kindred spirit with her, but, I'll just jump right into her Ted talk where she's sharing this favorite quote of hers and talking about stepping into the arena.

Brené Brown:
Theodore Roosevelt comes up, and a quote comes up and I read it. And this is what it says. It's a quote from a speech that he gave in the early 1900s, others were born, and a lot of people call it the man in the arena speech. And this is the passage that changes my life. "It's not the critic who counts. It's not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done it better. The credit belongs to the person who's actually in the arena, whose face is marred with blood, and sweat, and dust. Who at the best in the end knows the triumph of high achievement and who at worst, if he fails, he fails daring greatly."

Brené Brown:
So, the moment that I read that, I closed my laptop, and this is what shifted in me. Three huge things. First, I've spent the last 12 years studying vulnerability, and that quote was everything I know about vulnerability. It is not about winning. It's not about losing. It's about showing up and being seen. The second thing, this is who I want to be. I want to create, I want to make things that didn't exist before I touch them. I want to show up and be seen in my work and in my life. And if you're going to show up and be seen, there is only one guarantee and that is you will get your ass kicked. That is a guarantee. That's the only certainty you have.

Brené Brown:
If you're going to go in the arena and spend any time in there whatsoever, especially if you've committed to creating in your life, you will get your ass kicked. So, you have to decide at that moment. I think for all of us, if courage is a value that we hold, this is a consequence. You can't avoid it. The third thing, which really set me free, and I think Steve, my husband would argue has made me somewhat dangerous, is the new philosophy about criticism, which is this, if you're not in the arena also getting your ass kicked, I'm not interested in your feedback.

Brené Brown:
If you constructive information, feedback to give me. I want it and I'm an academic. I'm hardwired for wrestling around with like that. If you said, "Hey, you forgot all this literature, hey, you should've done this or terrible sentence construction over here." Like let's go, let's do it. I love that. But if you're in the cheap seats, not putting yourself on the line, and just talking about how I could do it better, I'm in no way interested in your feedback.

Mike Parsons:
Oh, ha! Get ready to get your ass kicked. If you want to make something of life, then the only outcome for sure that's going to happen is you're going to fall over, get mud on your face. That is, I cannot begin to tell you how I can relate to that thought, Chad.

Chad Owen:
And all the people that we've profiled on the show, how they have stumbled, and fallen, and that's been a reality of their own entrepreneurial journey as well.

Mike Parsons:
Yeah. And for me it is the thing that's I think it stops a lot of people from doing something remarkable because they're afraid of getting your ass kicked. And anyone who's tried to do a thing or two in life, and just to put it all on the line will know that it never works out perfectly. There's always trade offs, compromises. But the thing you can know for sure is that you dared to do something great, and it's a rite of passage. And I think the build on this, Chad, for both ourselves and the listeners is embrace the ass kicking.

Chad Owen:
Yeah. Expect it.

Mike Parsons:
And so Mike, you're like, "Right now I'm learning." Yeah. Embrace it. Don't run away from it. I mean, you've done so many things, you've traveled the world. Just look at this year so far for you, Chad, you have made major pivot in your life. You've been on all these adventures. Did it go perfect?

Chad Owen:
No. I found myself on my ass quite a few times.

Mike Parsons:
But you just embrace it and get up. And then before you know it, the next week, it starts to look better again. It's not going to be like permanent or anything. It's just like, it's a very big moment of learning and reflection. And I just love it. Embrace the ass kicking. And the fact that this goes, this notion of daring greatly, it goes right back to Roosevelt in the early 1900s tells you that we have right here a universal truth.

Chad Owen:
Yeah. And I don't know if you know this story Mike, but Teddy Roosevelt was giving a speech, a different speech. He was shot, and he shrugged it off, finished his speech, and then maybe 20 or 30 minutes later was then being tended to by the doctors. And so, if he's not a man that's not stepping into the arena and getting shot at AKA his ass kicked. I dunno who is.

Mike Parsons:
Well, the great news for our listeners is we've got a clip that builds off this, which is a Brené Brown talking about this life in this arena. And she's going to talk a lot about this concept of the arena, which is just a proxy for, "Hey, you're really trying to create something, something brave, and new, and ambitious." And she explains in this next clip that if you show up, here's what you need to do.

Brené Brown:
The other piece that's tough is to me, if you're going to spend your life in the arena, if you're going to spend your life showing up, really showing up, there's a couple things that you need. The first is a clarity of values. You have to ... I know like when I came out here, I knew I could screw this completely up. I could get booed off stage, bad things could happen, but I don't have a choice because if courage is my value, I have to do this. Whether it's successful or not is irrelevant. So, a real clarity of values is important. The other thing is you've got to have at least one person in your life who's willing to pick you up, and dust you off, and look at you when you fail, which hopefully you will. Because if you're not failing, you're really not showing up. But who is willing to look at you when you fail and say, "Man, that sucked."

Brené Brown:
Yeah, it was totally as bad as you thought, but you were brave. And let's get you cleaned up, because you're going to go back in. And this is someone who loves you, not despite your imperfections and vulnerabilities, but because of them. And they should have great seats in the arena. Like I forgot for five, 10 years, for a decade, I forgot to invite these people into my arena because you know, it's the old, I always want to say Karl Marx, but it's Groucho Marx difference. I'm a social worker. We read a lot more Carl than Groucho. I didn't want to belong to a club that would let me in. I forgot to invite people because I thought of if you're my fan, if you're here supporting me, how important could you be? I'm trying to win over the people who hate me. You simply love me. You simply hold my hair back when I'm puking. You pay bills with me, and raise kids with me. How important could you be? I'm looking for the stranger in the mall. That's who I'm trying to win over.

Chad Owen:
Yeah. I love where she starts talking about the clarity of values and to understand why you're doing it in the first place. Because if we're just going to keep getting knocked down something deep inside of us has to be motivating us to do it. It can't just be seeking that external validation or success because not every venture is going to be successful.

Mike Parsons:
That's right. And how much Chad has this theme of really choosing for a mission of, or to build a company or a product or a service that you actually care about the outcome, and that you really want to see that outcome come to life rather than prioritize the wealth and the accolades? I mean, many of the people that we have studied have talked about having this clear purpose, and mission because that is the juice. That's also the Teflon that helps you avoid, all those sticky moments. I mean, this is a big theme across all 60 plus shows, isn't it?

Chad Owen:
Yeah, two examples that come to mind. I'll do the obvious one first and then maybe I'll go for the deep cut. Jeff Bezos always talks about being customer obsessed. Everything that they do at Amazon is putting the customer at the center and really over-investing in that customer experience. And we've seen how well that has paid off. So, that core value of being customer obsessed, everything for the customer, that singular focus for the entire duration of the companies has paid off. But someone else that has an even longer track record with a slightly different focus is Fred Smith of FedEx. And the number one value that he instilled in the company from day one was being employee focused, and meeting the needs of the employees of FedEx first, and then betting that that would have outsized returns in creating a product and service that people loved because the people that were working on it loved it. And so for me, those are two examples of values that were said at the very beginning of the ventures that have served them very well, and created very lasting and very successful businesses.

Mike Parsons:
I think what we've done in these first two clips is sort of lay this foundation of stepping into the arena, showing up, daring to be great. Like all of those concepts. I think everybody is with us now. They know we're talking about swinging for the fence is putting yourself out there to try and do something brave, ambitious, remarkable, something that has some real impact in the world. And this next body of clips is Brené's thinking around one of the toughest things we're going to face if we're going to go and step into the arena, if we're going to show up. And that is criticism. So, what we've got, really set up for you now is really a way to think about, to manage, to handle criticism because the critics will come at you. And I think to build on your Bezos quote, he also has a quote, which I'm going to paraphrase, which is if people are not criticizing you, then you're not being brave enough. Right?

Mike Parsons:
He talks about like, "Look, some people like me, some people hate me, but that's because I'm trying to do a thing." He's showing up. He's stepping into the arena. So, we've got four great clips coming up all around critics and facing criticism, thinking about it, handling it, managing it, and how to live side by side with it because it's a natural thing. So, let's have a listen to Brené Brown. This is on the first of four clips. This first one is really about how we might focus on what we actually control.

Brené Brown:
I used to think the best way to put your work out into the world is to make sure the critics are not in the arena, but you have no control over who's in the arena. And the best way I have found is to know that they're there, and to know exactly what they're going to say to you because each of you know, the three seats that will always be taken when you walk into the arena, when you share your work with someone, the three seats that will always be taken are shame, scarcity, and comparison. Shame, completely universal human emotion. We all have it. It's that gremlin that whispers, "You're not enough." Or if you're feeling pretty confident ... Like I went through this like innocent ... When Scott was talking, I went back and forth from like a ping pong table with gremlins back from, "Oh my God, I'm not enough. I'm not enough." To, "I can do this. I can totally do it." "Oh, who do you think you are?" That's the other gremlin. That's how it works. Like, "Look at you, big for your britches." I clearly have Texas gremlins.

Brené Brown:
I don't know that everyone says too big for their britches, but that's what my gremlins say. So shame always has a seat. The other seat that's always taken is scarcity, "What am I doing that's original? Everyone else is doing this. 150 people are doing it, who are better trained than I am. What am I contributing? Does this really matter?" The third seat always comparison. How many of you ever struggle with comparison? Oh my God, comparison is nightmare. I made a pact not to talk to anyone in the green room because what I was afraid that I would end up doing is say, "So what are you talking about?" That's interesting because I'm going first

Brené Brown:
So, if it sounds super good and I think I suck comparatively, I may say that, and then I'm catching a flight to Dallas. Comparison is always there. The fourth seat I left open for you. You got to know who's in the fourth seat. Is it a teacher? Is it a parent? Is it a shitty ex-coworker? Am I the only one that's ever had one of those? The thing is I don't care what people think. I don't worry about the critics in the arena, sends a huge red flag up for me. We're hardwired for connection, when we stop caring what people think, we lose our capacity for connection. When we've become defined by what people think, we lose our capacity to be vulnerable, not caring what people think is its own hustle. Trust me.

Chad Owen:
Wow. And that last point really speaks to me because she likens it to hustle, and I think hustle is something that those of us in entrepreneurial ventures are probably all too familiar with. And I think what happens is we do shut ourselves off in the pursuit of that hustle. I'm curious for you Mike, which of those seats or different seats, do you find when you're putting yourself out there and trying something new and different or bold?

Mike Parsons:
Yeah, I think the default that I have is that I'm always feeling no matter what that I have underperformed. Meaning, what characterizes me in terms of the critics, the shame, the scarcity, the comparison is I have this wildly ridiculous expectation that everything will be world-class best ever. So, I may have done something really good but actually I feel disappointed because I was like, "Ah, it's probably not the best in the world or that's a long way from being best in the world." And that's what comes up. in terms of self-criticism. I'm always like, "Ah, I need to do the 48 hour design thinking workshop. We only created 14 validated products."

Chad Owen:
That's okay. I guess.

Mike Parsons:
I don't know that's definitely where it-

Chad Owen:
Yeah, but it's so interesting how our own self-critics are often the worst, but the most overlooked on our part. We might be most concerned with the competition or with our clients or stakeholders, but we can't ignore the ones that are us.

Mike Parsons:
Yes. Well, she goes ... We've got a clip talking about a self-criticism in a moment. But what I think is powerful in this is that you have to coexist with criticism and critics, whether it's self-criticism or from outside, because we're hardwired to be human connected social beings. So, she's pointing out for say, "Look, don't go ignoring it. Don't say you don't care what anyone thinks. Because if you're truly there, then you're disconnected with humanity." So, that drives us to the question, well how do we start dealing with this? And what's so perfect is this next clip literally brings us to this point. This is Brené Brown talking about critics and how coexistence looks like, how it feels like with critics and criticism.

Brené Brown:
So, I guess the real specific how tos are this, the world keeps going, whether you know it or not. The critics are in the arena, whether you identify them, and think about the messages that keep us small, they're there whether you do that or not. What I have found in my life, and what I've found in my research, which fueled what I did in my life, is that the people who have the most courage, who are willing to show up and be the most vulnerable are the ones who are very clear about who the critics are, the ones who reserve seats for them and say, "I hear you. I get it. I know where the messaging is coming from. I'm not buying it anymore." So to get very clear.

Mike Parsons:
To get very clear, to know who the critics are, and it's interesting, those who are courageous, and vulnerable have almost sort of scoped out where the criticism is coming from. Right?

Chad Owen:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mike Parsons:
I find that very interesting. Like you've said, "I can see it. I know you're there. I know what it's all about." But I can still be vulnerable and/or courageous in my endeavors because I've matched you guys out.

Chad Owen:
That's so hard to do though, to make the time and the effort to be mindful and be vulnerable and say, "Hey, maybe I'm not the best in the world in this moment. Maybe I'm not able to achieve everything that I want to achieve here." This is something that I would love to practice more. But I think, there's a lot that we can learn here from Brené as she's giving us this template and tools of how to deal with the critics. And this idea of reserving a seat I think is really fascinating. This metaphor of the arena, and reserving seats I think is really interesting. So, here she is building upon this idea of reserving seats for our critics.

Brené Brown:
What I'm going to invite you to do this way maybe is reserve seats for them, which doesn't seem like a good thing to do, but I have 13,000 pieces of data, and I've done this work for 12 years. And what I have found, and what I have learned from these folks, and then try to apply it in my own life that has changed my life is to reserve a seat, to take the critics to lunch, and to simply when I'm trying to do something new, and hard, and original, and I'm trying to be creative, and I'm trying to innovate to say, "I see you, I hear you, but I'm going to show up and do this anyway, and I've got a seat for you, and you're welcome to come, but I'm not interested in your feedback."

Mike Parsons:
Yeah. Take a seat. But I'm not going to get all twisted up by my critics. I just love the visualization she's bringing to a conversation that happens in your head. You know, we might not even share half of this with our partners and our colleagues. This is all the, what I call the little voices, right?

Chad Owen:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). There's some interesting parallels here to some other things that we've learned here on the show in the power of strong visualization. There's a way in which she's giving us this mental model of, you know that there's going to be critics, and they're going to sometimes be able to cut you down and knock you on your ass. Why not? Why not invite them in, reserve a seat for them so that you're doing this pre-preparation so that when you do step into the arena, you put yourself out there, and the critics in real life show up, and start to criticize you. You've already been prepared. You have that even keel and cool attitude, and you can let it wash off you like water. And it doesn't take you off your game and really disrupt your flow.

Mike Parsons:
Oh yeah, that's good.

Chad Owen:
I think that's how I'm taking this and figuring out how I might put it into practice.

Mike Parsons:
Yeah. It's almost having a map, and you can almost point to where the speed bumps are going to be.

Chad Owen:
Yeah, exactly. And I call it like looking around the corner, and then looking around the other corner, and anticipating that criticism. But you were talking about the voices in our head. And in some ways those are inescapable critics, right? We can't shut the door and retreat into our office with that critic, can we?

Mike Parsons:
Right. Like this is like when you freak out about something in your head. And then I have these things where things will happen during my day, and I have this very disproportionate reaction in my mind. And then somehow the thing resolves itself the following day. And I even catch myself thinking, "Why did I even get upset or flustered or stressed about that?" Because it was such a ridiculous little voice in my head. Often they come from misinterpretations, and misunderstandings, and all of that stuff. But it's crazy, these voices in our head, this uncertainty, these doubts, this fear, it plagues us, doesn't it?

Chad Owen:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. The freshness of these ideas from Brené is why I nominated her as someone that we should learn from here on the show because often yours and mine and other innovators approaches is very externally focused, seeking external validation, going straight to the customers, this bottom up approach. And oftentimes we can overlook ourselves in that process as well. Understanding that in some ways we can also be our own customer, and own user and that there's some learnings to be had to be turning inward a little bit as well sometimes.

Mike Parsons:
No, I love that thought. I love that thought. Well, she's got one more seat left in the arena, doesn't she, Chad?

Chad Owen:
Yeah, well that's the one for ourselves of course. And so, she's going to talk a little bit here about how we can deal with that peskiest of critics, ourselves.

Brené Brown:
The last thing, which I think is the hardest is this. One of these seats needs to be reserved for you. One of these seats needs to be reserved for me. When we look up, and we're putting an idea, our a piece of art, our design forward, who do you think the biggest critic in the arena normally is? Yourself, and so definitely me. I have never watched either of those Ted talks because it's not in service of the work for me, and I try to do things that are only in service of my work because what would it serve for me to watch it? I would sit there and go, "Oh my God, it's like in your stomach. Oh my God, that's not what you were going to say."

Brené Brown:
We're so self-critical, and one of the things that I think happens, and I think this happens a lot, it happens in different professions, but I think I see it a lot with creatives is there is an ideal of what you're supposed to be. And what a lot of us end up doing is we orphan the parts of ourselves that don't fit with that idea is supposed to be. And what it leaves when we orphan all those parts of us is it just leaves the critic, and so reserved in this seat is this, where we came from, how we started, our families. That's me. The oldest, of course. The lost years. The years where I was so lost, and confused, and hurt, and disillusioned that I thought the only path to freedom was a flock of seagulls haircut.

Brené Brown:
The higher the hair, the closer to God we say in Texas. The people who love us, the moments that make us who we are. And in that share should be this person, the person who believes in what we're doing, and why we're doing it. And the person who says, "Yeah, it's so scary to show up. It feels dangerous to be seen. It's terrifying, but it is not as scary, dangerous or terrifying as getting to the end of our lives and thinking, what if I would've shown up, what would have been different?"

Mike Parsons:
Oh, ha! Does she close that well, Chad? If that is ever the real rapper on listening to those little voices, it's just listen to yourself in the future. You never want to be sitting there on your death bed saying, "I wish I'd shown up." Like for me, that is the point that sparks me into like, "Yep, you're right. Let's go do this. I'm going to bloody well go for it. Because life is too short." Like to me that is such a powerful thought. Didn't you find that's just like boom?

Chad Owen:
Yeah, I love it. It reminds me of the great scene in Dead Poets Society with Robin Williams, the carpe diem scene where he's telling the young boys that he's teaching to seize the day. I've never thought of this in this way, but she talks about maybe us creatives can orphan or distance ourselves from the parts of ourselves that don't fit like this ideal part of us. Again, it's something that's often an unsaid, unspoken, and not addressed. And yeah, I just love that she's asking us to inquire within ourselves, and really understand that we don't have to do that, and that actually we're probably best served if we're inviting that person into, and reserving the seat for them in the arena.

Mike Parsons:
Powerful stuff because if you look at the context of the first half of the show, we've said, "Okay, let's show up. Let's be resilient. Let's go into this arena, let's dare to be great." And then the first thing you face is the naysayers, whether it's outside or in, and I think this really frames sort of the hero's journey, whether your fighting for a cause you believe in, building a company, building a product, you will go on this path. And I think she's given us such invaluable advice on listening to that little voice in our head or listening to those around us who say, "It can't be done or you shouldn't do that." How great is that? And what's even better, Chad, is we've got a whole second half of the show on a really tackling, well, if you are going to go on this journey and you're going to manage the critics in the right way, well what else can you do to step into the arena?

Mike Parsons:
So, I'm pretty excited about that. But Chad, I feel like we should just pause for a second, and do a little bit of housekeeping because I don't know if you've seen but the ratings of the show, you know, I've been putting out the call to Ash to everyone?

Chad Owen:
Oh yes.

Mike Parsons:
Go into iTunes, rate the show. We're up to 25 ratings. We are holding on for dear life to five star rating podcast, which is pretty damn good. So, thank you to everybody who's been listening. We are super pumped about that. And I know that we broke a bit of a record. One of our Simon Sinek shows recently hit 60,000 listeners. So, that's a lot of folks listening to you and I just chatting away Chad. Oh my gosh.

Chad Owen:
I want to take the time to give a heartfelt thank you, and shout out to ... I'm going to give her the title of Moonshots' super fan number one, Maria. I had the wonderful opportunity to get together with her in real life, and geek out on all things Moonshot and beyond. So again, thank you Maria, for being our number one fan here on the Moonshots Podcast. If you want to vie for the title, just email Mike and I. hello @moonshots.io. And feel free to be a critic, tell us what you like, what we could be doing better, and what sorts of interesting people and companies you would like to learn from. Mike and I always love to open our inboxes to feedback from you all.

Mike Parsons:
Yes. And as a little bit of a teaser, Chad, do you want to mention a certain second adventure we're going to start recording and publishing soon together? Do you want to set that up a little?

Chad Owen:
No, I'm going to say that until the end of the show, and you got to stick around to the end.

Mike Parsons:
Oh, you want everyone to wait that long? Oh gosh, you're tough.

Chad Owen:
Yeah. This is all part of like the narrative structure, Mike. You got to leave people hanging and yeah.

Mike Parsons:
Oh, sorry. Right. Okay.

Chad Owen:
It's how [crosstalk 00:38:14] attention.

Mike Parsons:
Okay. Healthy. Emphasis on the healthy part. Okay. So, there you have it. We'd love any of your feedback. Jump onto moonshots.io, jump onto any of the fingle dingle social media channels. You'll find us there. Lots of you tweeting around, Facebooking us, and all that good stuff. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Right. Let's tear into this next bit. So, I want you to imagine you're stepping into the arena you're showing up. I think where Brené is really coming from here is you got to be yourself. But what's interesting in life for a lot of us that's a journey in and of itself is to find out who you really are. But she's got some great tips for us. And the first one is a little bit maybe, I don't know, the warning signs of when you're not being yourself. So, let's have a listen to Brené Brown talking about pleasing others.

Brené Brown:
So, one of the things that we do in our personal lives is we try to combat not being enough by pleasing, and performing, and perfecting. We go through our lives trying to be who we think we're supposed to be, doing and saying what we think people want to hear, putting on whatever mask or face we think we need to put on for that moment. And what that leaves us is exhausted. When we're pleasing, and perfecting, and performing, we end up saying yes a lot when we mean no, right?

Speaker 4:
Yes.

Brené Brown:
And we also end up saying no, when we mean, "Oh heck yes, I want to do that. Oh, I really want to do that. And you know what? Even though I have a lot of work, I want to do it now. I don't want to do it five pounds from now. I don't want to do it when I'm great. I don't want to do it when I've practiced. I just want to do it now." But we don't have those boundaries when we don't feel like we're worthy enough. I have this ring, I don't know if you can see it. It's got these little spinners on it, and I bought it for my 41st birthday, the one where I age 21 years in 12 months.

Brené Brown:
And it has spinners. And my whole new thing is when someone asked me to do something now, I spin my ring three times before I answer. And it's my boundary ring. And what I say to myself when I'm spinning it, it's very simple and it's, "Choose discomfort over resentment." "Brené, can you bring five dozen cookies to school tomorrow?" What happens when we say, "Sure, I'll be glad to bring the cookies up to the school." If you know me, you know I'll go right into my very high voice, "Sure, I would love two, peanut free, right?"

Brené Brown:
And then what happens is your home in your kitchen, and your kids want you to be kind and gentle with them, but you're like this, "I hate these people. I hate these kids. I hope they choke on my cookie." So, how do we do things without resentment? You know, and it takes boundaries. So, in the end, I think if we take away anything from the authenticity piece, it is about the courage to be imperfect, to be vulnerable, and to set boundaries.

Chad Owen:
Oh, this clip is so great. There's so many amazing lessons from here, Mike. I think this is in contention for my favorite.

Mike Parsons:
Yeah, clip of the show. Yeah.

Chad Owen:
I mean, there's so many things that you can take away as a manager working with others and just managing your life in yourself and self-regulating.

Mike Parsons:
Oh yeah. This knows no boundaries. Whether you're talking about your personal work life, knowing when to say no, so you can be better at the things you said yes to. Oh, Chad, this is huge.

Chad Owen:
It's describing me to a T. Like my wife listening to this, she's like, "Oh my God, that's Chad, Mr. Over-committer. But what goes unsaid is that there is resentment on the inside because you over-commit, and you're like, "Oh my God, I don't want to do this because I've over-committed and now I'm resentful." When you should be in an ideal world, yes, like you should be wholehearted, and invested in everything that you're doing. But if you say yes to everything, it's going to backfire. And so, her framing of we often, ... So, how'd she begin? She said, "We often say yes when we mean no, and we often say no when we mean hell yes."

Chad Owen:
So, her little trick to just pause and spin that ring of hers, I think is a genius one, making it a physical manifestation or habit that forces her to be more mindful when she's agreeing to or disagreeing to do something. I think it's fantastic.

Mike Parsons:
I love it. I love it. And I suffered the over-committing thing as well, Chad. And the protective, habits that I tried to build is like, "I'd love to, but I can't do it this time. Maybe next." And just referring, "Ah, I can't do it. But you know what, so-and-so might be able to do that." And I think if you were just genuinely just trying to help them get the job done that this person asking would like, I think that's the way to digest it. I certainly feel this is particularly when people have an ask of you, which, you know you either have very little time or capacity to deliver.

Mike Parsons:
And my other thing is like if I tried to do it for you today or tomorrow, I wouldn't do a good job, and I don't want to let you down. There are just little things I work on trying to do so that I'm not always trying to please, you know?

Chad Owen:
Yeah. I'm taking this away tonight is choose discomfort over resentment. So, that social pressure to be a pleaser is so great. But yeah, we should be choosing that temporary discomfort for that long term happiness and yeah-

Mike Parsons:
Yeah, sure. But flip this over into our work situation. The worst thing you can do is when requests come your way is always saying yes because you want to do a good job and please everyone. I've had situations where it's been quite tricky when you have to say no to a client because the constraints by which they're bringing something to you, it's just simply not enough time. And you can see in their eyes they're like, "Well, if you don't do. Who's going to do it?" And you can see it spinning out, but it's just like, "I'm not going to do a good job. I just can't, and I don't want to let you down." Anyway, so, I think whether it's me negotiating with my son or my biggest client, it's all the same thing.

Chad Owen:
Yeah.

Mike Parsons:
I want both of them to be happy, you know?

Chad Owen:
Uh-huh (affirmative). And even with work colleagues, it compounds. So, if you're saying yes and agreeing to something when you know that you can't do it, then everyone else is saying yes to things that they know that they can't do. And then before you know it, everyone is overworked, overextended, and you have this dysfunctional culture where everyone's over-committed, everyone's resenting everyone else because they've agreed to do all of these things. And I think if many of us take a moment to actually think about it, what we should be committing to, and focusing our time on and what we should maybe defer or delegate, I think it could create much healthier workplaces, much healthier families, and relationships.

Chad Owen:
So, again, I think there's so much that we can learn from this clip, but we're not done yet. We have some excellent follow on and clips here. And those of you may sort of hear some parallels or have seen Brené with Oprah. Someone else that we've profiled here on the show and-

Mike Parsons:
Talk about kindred spirits. Oh my Gosh. Oprah and Brené. Could you imagine those two? I'm sure they're besties. I'm sure they're besties. But here's Bree talking with her ... Giving us more advice on how to get practical, and be our more authentic selves.

Oprah:
Cultivating authenticity, letting go of what people think. That's the first one. Let's talk about that.

Brené Brown:
It's so hard. I thought doing this research, I thought going into it, there are authentic people and inauthentic people. I did not find any evidence of that at all. What I found is authenticity is a practice, and you choose it every day, sometimes every hour of every day. And it's a practice. It's not, I just wake up and, "Hey, I'm authentic." It's that when you walk into a meeting, you have to make the choice, "Am I going to show up, and let myself be seen? Am I gonna raise my hand and say, wow, y'all look super excited. I don't know what in the hell you're talking about. I'm so lost." You know, that's a choice.

Oprah:
Yes. Uh-huh (affirmative).

Brené Brown:
Right?

Oprah:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Brené Brown:
And to be, make that authentic choice you got to let go of-

Oprah:
Of the fake roo. I call it the fake roo. But you know what I have found, I mean, I consider myself to be an authentic person, but when I am inauthentic is when I've allowed myself to be around people who were not. And then I have to fake it to be with them.

Brené Brown:
Oh, for sure. It's contagious.

Oprah:
Yes. So, they're faking it and you know, you're in that situation when you do that haha, that kind of haha. You're laughing at jokes that aren't funny. You're pretending to be comfortable when you're not, and lose your own authenticity.

Brené Brown:
Yeah. And I do it.

Mike Parsons:
The fake-a-roo. Like for me, I think the big gift in this that Brené is bringing to us is learning just to be yourself is not something you just flick a switch, and do. It's an active pursuit. And I must say that one of the biggest things I've had professionally throughout my career is to try and work out really who I want to be, and how I want to work, how the people I want to surround myself with. And that's why seven or eight years ago I made that massive pivot out of Madison Avenue and said, "Nope, I want to do something else. This doesn't seem like the place that is a good fit for me. And I want to be in a practice that fits me better, so I can just be myself amongst the right people."

Mike Parsons:
And I love this idea that it's something you've got to work on. And I find myself just working with the right people, being the person, having the habits and the rituals that I think are the right way to do things.

Chad Owen:
Yeah. I'm tying this all the way back to one of the beginning clips where she talks about getting very clear about your values. For me, how the practice of being authentic looks and feels, it's being sure that you're embodying, and demonstrating those values that you've decided are very important for you. And I mean, I also just really identify with the social situations that Oprah talks about and the haha because yeah, you may have no interest at all in what this person is doing or saying or just be simply confused and not have the context. But yeah, that vicious circle of the fake-a-roo, that's a real thing.

Mike Parsons:
The fake-a-roo exists and the funny thing is if you invert it and say, rather than just avoiding the fake-a-roo situation, let's find good people, real people, authentic people that I just feel at home and comfortable with. What's really interesting is I'm very conscious of working with colleagues like yourself, clients like the ones that we have, with partners and the experts all around the world that universally I just like being with. It's not particularly complex. So, the biggest client in the world could come and say, "Mike, build me a dozen brand new products." And if I felt that they were going to be nasty, judgemental, and really hard to work with, maybe I'm just getting old, Chad, but I just can't be bothered.

Mike Parsons:
Because I think when you have these wonderful clients that want to partner, and challenge you, when you have colleagues that want to learn and partner and challenge, it all comes together in this huge wave of momentum. Because everywhere you look, you're surrounded by good people. And this sort of kinetic energy because in the end we're all social beings. So, if all the dimensions, and the constituents, and the stakeholders around us are nice, talented people who we can just be ourselves around, then it is just one big virtuous circle of velocity and momentum, it's a flywheel effect, isn't it?

Chad Owen:
Yeah. And we don't have to work so hard at being authentic because we're surrounding ourselves with those individuals, and people, and organizations that share those common values with us.

Mike Parsons:
Yeah. Now, we've focused a lot of this reflection on the workplace, but this last idea in terms of authenticity from Brené Brown, she's actually going to flip it into her personal life. And she reflects on, all the dreams, and hopes, and aspirations that we typically have nice house, and all that sort of stuff. And she's going to explain how her practice has led her to some new insights in her personal life. So, let's have a listen to Brené Brown talking about when enough starts with enough.

Brené Brown:
I am enough starts with enough. Steve and I for a long time had a list of everything we wanted, like our achievement list. Maybe a lake house, like every other person I know I want a bigger house with a guest room. No one will ever come, but for some reason, it's like this draw, right? To have the guest room? Well, when the wholehearted research came out, it fundamentally shifted the way we live, the way we parent, everything. And so we decided to make a list of everything that was happening in our lives when we felt really joyful, like what's happening? Not a want list, but like actually based on evidence. Like we are the happiest when what's happening.

Brené Brown:
And we looked at this list and the list was the opposite of the want list. The want list dictated to us that we needed to work more, and make more money, and the joy list meant less work and more time. Here's the part where we all struggle. Worthiness does not have prerequisites. We need to find a way to engage with the world from a place of worthiness. We need to find a way to say, "I'm enough. This is who I am." Because I literally believe that our lives depend on it.

Chad Owen:
It's so opposed to everything that we hear in the startup world, and entrepreneurship, and innovation, isn't it Mike?

Mike Parsons:
Sure, or you would get even as far as saying most Western, first world modern social environments are drawn by an economic construct of what you own. What are the symbols of success? Consumption. So, we all dream for big houses, cars, lots ... What did she call it? Not the ... The Lake house. Everyone's got the second home, all this sort of stuff. And it can be so disconnected with what makes you happy. And I've firsthand, I have seen people consumed with these things who are far from the happiest people I know.

Chad Owen:
Yeah. And this idea that enough starts with enough this vow ... And you are okay with who you are today, that there's not some like unrealized self or potential that you have to work and strive towards to be. Because we all know that hamster wheel that puts us on. So, I just love this reminder from her. I think it's landing with me at a time where I think it's a really important message. As so much has changed for me this year, I think it's important to understand that I don't have to necessarily strive for more in order to be worthy.

Mike Parsons:
Yeah. And I feel like I made my own step in this when we got our new house. We deliberately went for something on the small side, certainly below average for the Australian house. And we chose a more humbler path. And when you just focus on the things that are going to make you happy, I think life just becomes not only simpler, but I think we waste so much energy aspiring to compete. What's the American saying? Competing with the Joneses, then they [crosstalk 00:55:36].

Chad Owen:
Keeping up with the Joneses.

Mike Parsons:
Keeping up the Joneses. Yeah. Forget that stuff. Just be yourself. Focus on those moments that she said you're happiest when. What are the simple delights that truly speak to you, your partner, your family? Things are bound to work out.

Chad Owen:
Yeah. I'm going to challenge you, Mike. I'm going to do this with my partner as well. Let's make that list, right? So, you make the list of ... We'll take you and I as an example in the workplace. I'd be curious to know what your top three or five, "I'm happiest at work when ... " To see what your answers are. And then mine. Yeah, and we can-

Mike Parsons:
Yeah, you want me to tell you now?

Chad Owen:
Oh, sure. Yeah.

Mike Parsons:
Okay. So, I'm definitely happiest in the office when I'm having fun while working on something big with my colleagues. I am the happiest at work and in the office when I'm working with a client who really wants to partner with me. And I'm happiest in the office when something that I have built can come into the world and bring delight, satisfaction, a smile to the user's face.

Chad Owen:
That's great. I'm sure you could list off many more.

Mike Parsons:
Yep-

Chad Owen:
I think at the top of-

Mike Parsons:
It's pretty simple, isn't it?

Chad Owen:
Yeah. But think of how much of work is not that?

Mike Parsons:
Or how our decisions lead us on a path that is not that.

Chad Owen:
Right, when we're saying yes, when we should be saying no.

Mike Parsons:
Oh, ah, top of the class. Come on. Do your list, Chad. Let's go.

Chad Owen:
For me, I don't think this will be a surprise to anyone. I'm happiest at work when I'm both learning and sharing my learning with others.

Mike Parsons:
Oh, geez, you're in the right job then.

Chad Owen:
I'm also happiest when I am able to lead from behind instead of rallying the troops from the front. I think that's my style, and I really enjoy that. I'm also happiest when I have the, Oh, what does Cal Newport call it? The monk time. I'm happiest when I have the monk time to do those two or three hours of deep work, every day. So, yeah, now, we've committed to one another to help enable that for one another.

Mike Parsons:
Yeah. Fantastic. Well, I'd encourage our listeners to reach out to us, and share amongst themselves or even share with us the answers to those questions. I'd be fascinated to know what are the moments that people say at work when they're the happiest, you know?

Chad Owen:
And how different they are from maybe their wants or goals. And understand, maybe we would be a little happier if we better aligned our goals and our wants with what makes us happiest.

Mike Parsons:
True.

Chad Owen:
It seems like a pretty good life recipe or prescription.

Mike Parsons:
That's wonderful. Well, thank you for getting us through that little exercise, Chad. That's awesome. But we've just got one or two more clips, and I can promise you, that we have the little announcement that we'll do at the end of the show, just to remind you of Chad's little teasing deferral of announcements, bad, bad, bad, bad. But we also have two clips, one of which is really strong. If you're not sitting down, you might want to, because these coming to clips are great. And they focus more on orientating ourselves more into a team, family situation. Or if we think about work, perhaps beyond work, it's the sort of the community or what Brené calls the tribe.

Mike Parsons:
These are two clips that really matter when you think about how we want to interact with others, and how we want to do our best work. But let's first start with how we want to interact with others. And particularly with those that we're close to. Brené has this great thought that there really is an enormous difference between empathy and sympathy. So, let's have a listen to what she has to say, here's Brené Brown.

Brené Brown:
So, what is empathy and why is it very different than sympathy? Empathy fuels connection, sympathy drives disconnection. Empathy, it's very interesting. Theresa Wiseman is a nursing scholar who studied professions, very diverse professions where empathy is relevant and came up with four qualities of empathy, perspective taking, the ability to take the perspective of another person or recognize their perspective as their truth, staying out of judgment, not easy when you enjoy it as much as most of us do, recognizing emotion in other people, and then communicating that. Empathy is feeling with people. And to me, I always think of empathy as this sacred space. When someone's in a deep hole, and they shout out from the bottom and they say, "I'm stuck, it's dark, I'm overwhelmed." And then we look and we say, "Hey, calm down. I know what it's like down here and you're not alone."

Brené Brown:
Sympathy is, "Oh, it's bad, huh?" "No." "You want a sandwich?" Empathy is a choice, and it's a vulnerable choice because in order to connect with you, I have to connect with something in myself that knows that feeling. Rarely if ever does an empathic response begin with at least. I had it ... Yeah. And we do it all the time because you know what? Someone just shared something with us that's incredibly painful, and we're trying to silver lining it. I don't think that's a verb, but I'm using it as one. We're trying to put the silver lining around it. So, "I had a miscarriage." "Oh, at least you know you can get pregnant." "I think my marriage is falling apart." "At least you have a marriage." "John's getting kicked out of school." "At least Sarah is an a student."

Brené Brown:
But one of the things we do sometimes in the face of very difficult conversations is we try to make things better. If I share something with you that's very difficult, I'd rather you say, "I don't even know what to say right now. I'm just so glad you told me." Because the truth is rarely can a response make something better. What makes something better is connection.

Mike Parsons:
Told you we were ending on a strong couple of clips? Like, ha, that one's pretty intense.

Chad Owen:
Yeah. And I would encourage anyone that is connecting with any of these clips from Brené to grab any of her books because the advice, and the research and everything in them is really powerful. In this clip, what I'm taking away from it is the power of listening, active listening, and reflective listening as opposed to a bit of a self-criticism here. I do have a bias towards action. And so, when someone is sharing something with me where maybe I should be a bit more empathic, I want to jump in, and try and do something and here she says, "Maybe just listen, and put yourself in their shoes, and not try to solve it or to try and do something." That's very hard for me.

Mike Parsons:
Yeah. I mean, to take your idea further, it's almost like someone who's facing a challenge, the greatest medicine for their pain is just the connection and being heard. Like no amount of brainstormings can to fix it. They just need to know, "Ugh, I'm not alone." Someone to say, "Oh, I know you work so hard, Bama." It's just being heard. Like you don't have to jump into action man. Superman, let's solve all of this. Because it's almost like they've just got to purge it, feel that they're connected to someone, that they're being heard. I thought that was a great point. I've certainly learned that in my marriage as well. Like sometimes I jump into, "Wow, let's do this, this and this." And it's like, "No, Mike, I think I should just listen, acknowledge. Listen, acknowledge." You know?

Chad Owen:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). And using empathy as a tool for connection I think is really important. You and I, Mike, don't do anything alone when it comes to our work. And I think we can use this distinction between empathy and sympathy. We can, do the perspective taking, putting ourselves in the other person's shoes, not judge them, and recognizing the emotions that they're feeling. We can use that to drive the connections with the people that we work with, the clients that we serve, and the customers that we're building products and services with. And so, we will leave you in this last clip from Brené talking about building these connections with others as we're doing this work, and all of us as sweaty creatives.

Brené Brown:
So I thought about it, and I thought, "Okay, so I'm a researcher. I study connection, I study vulnerability, I study love." And then I realized why I thought you were my tribe. I think it's because design is a function of connection. There is nothing more vulnerable than creativity and what is art if it's not love? So, it made sense to me to be here. And then I thought, "Okay, 99% perspiration. They said, don't talk about inspirational stuff. Talk about the how tos." So you know my name sometimes I name my keynote presentations, things that'll make me feel better about being here. So, this one's called sweaty creatives.

Brené Brown:
Because I know what it means to be a sweaty creative, because I create all the time when I write the way I translate my research, when I talk. And I know what the perspiration feels like. And so, what I want to talk about today is the perspiration that no one talks about very often. And that's not the perspiration from the hard work, and the laborious part of creating. It's the perspiration from fear, from the cold sweat, the stuff that pops up on our eyebrows when it's not supposed to be there because we're presenting an idea or talking about something that we care about, and then we're begging our body not to sweat. Like when they said we're filming you against black, can you wear something else? I'm like, "Ah, no." That 99% perspiration thing, I'm down with that, I got that. I'll be wearing, I guess my option will be Navy. So, I know about sweaty creatives.

Mike Parsons:
How good is that? But isn't it interesting whether you're talking about empathy on a one-on-one situation or trying to create something in the world? You might call that design. You might call that building a business. Whatever it is, design is a function of connection to others, to yourself. It's about understanding. It's about empathy. So, if we want to go out in the world and create, it is all about connection with ourselves and with others. It's all about be your true self. Don't listen to the critics, know that they're there, but have the courage to show up, and step into the arena.

Chad Owen:
I don't know about you Mike, but I've had a lot of fun going through all of these clips from Brené, and we have so many more. We've got several shows lined up here chronicling, even more insights from Brené's work and research. I think for me, what I'm taking away from this episode is to pause, and take a moment to do a little bit more self-reflection, and setting intentions. Because I think right now, at least at work, it's very busy, there's a lot of activity. And we can just forget to take the time to be intentional about being empathetic, about reserving those seats in the arena for our critics. Yeah. So, that's what I'm taking away from the show.

Mike Parsons:
To me there was a lot. What I'm going to take out, it's a bit different, which is a reminder that when you try, and do something bold and different, when you try, and build your own company that it's not meant to be easy, and you're going to face critics, and especially the inner critic most of all. And that you should just continue to be yourself, demonstrate empathy, and understand that everything that we design and build is a function of our connection to each other and to the world, and I get a lot of inspiration out of that. There was also, if that didn't get me, just think about where you might be in the longterm, where you might be at the end of your career. Do you ever want to be standing there saying, "I wish I had showed up." And I certainly don't want to be in that situation.

Mike Parsons:
Well, there you have it Chad. I mean we ended on a pretty strong note. Thinking about design, and creating a business, creating price, really is a function of connection. Not only connection with ourselves but with each other. And I think this is essential if we want to go out there and be ourselves, don't let the critics hold us back. But most of all, I think what Brené Brown brought to us in this book is a challenge. Dare to be great, to show up, to get into that arena. And she reminded us there will be a time where you'll ask yourself, "Did I show up enough in life?"

Mike Parsons:
And I think she's given us such a wonderful framework to get over those. I remember at the start of the show, Chad, I said, it's those little voices, I feel like I'm ready to do battle with those voices.

Chad Owen:
Yeah. And we've got many more shows to come diving into some of Brené's newer books, Daring Greatly, Rising Strong, and we're going to continue this author's kick. We've got another big one out there on the horizon after Brené diving into the works of Jim Collins, another very well-researched, and insightful author in the world of business with books like Built to Last and Good to Great. So, yeah, I'm really excited with our plans for the future of the Moonshots Podcast. But as you had mentioned when we have another project cooking.

Chad Owen:
Mike and I have had the pleasure of officially joining forces this year in our professional lives and work. And a part of that has been solidifying our thoughts, and ideas, and exploration around what we're calling bottom up innovation. So, I'm really excited to announce a new podcast project called the Bottom Up Podcast, where Mike and I will give you bite sized episodes sharing everything that you need to know to take a new approach to innovation, some skills, methodologies, frameworks, practices, case studies, and so much more. Mike, what sorts of things can people expect in our new show?

Mike Parsons:
Well, I mean, we have got so much to cover in the new show, but we're going to break down the travails of WeWork. And we're going to do some very quick sharp examination of their product, their profit model, their people model, and how they promote the business to try and ask ourselves what can we learn from WeWork. So, we're going to use a lot of techniques from lean and agile design thinking and all that good stuff. And then we're going to swing for the fences. We're going to break down the master class that we have built, which you can take as a course on bottomup.io.

Mike Parsons:
And we're going to take one template, one tool from each of the chapters, and we're going to discuss it in less than 10 minutes. And each and every one of these tools could be incredibly valuable for you if you're a designer, a creator, a maker, a builder, entrepreneur, innovator. These are the modern tools of innovators. And we're going to break them down. And at the end of every show, you'll be actually able to get a template of the tool that we just discussed. So, you can literally listen to us and then take a shot at doing your own one.

Mike Parsons:
And I think, after years and years of doing this, you can just go through, and shortcut all of the pain, and suffering of Chad and I learning, figuring out what tools to use for what sort of problems. And you can just like shortcut the process and get it from the source. So, really excited you can go to bottomup.io to see our courses. But more importantly, probably around the time that you're starting to listen to this show, you will find that you can go to bottomup.io and find our new podcast called Bottom Up Podcast. So we are super, super excited to share that with you.

Chad Owen:
But do not worry Moonshots is not going anywhere. Mike and I have no intention of stopping this learning journey alongside all of you. So, as I mentioned, we've got several more books with Brené Brown, turning our attention to Jim Collins, and so much more.

Mike Parsons:
True. True. Well, Chad, it has been wonderful, and I thank you for bringing us the work of Brené Brown. It's been great to share this with you, with our listeners. I feel ready to go and tackle those little voices in my head. Actually, the voice in my head right now is, "I wouldn't mind lunch." But apart from that voice, I'm going to tackle all of the other ones that I encounter on my journeys, and adventures, and I hope you Chad do as well.

Chad Owen:
Thanks, Mike. I can't wait for the next one.

Mike Parsons:
All right guys, that's it. That's a wrap of the Moonshots Podcast. Join us next time for more of the wonderful work of Brené Brown. That's a wrap.