ZAHA HADID
EPISODE 50
Dame Zaha Hadid born October 31, 1950 and died March 31, 2016, was an Iraqi-born British architect known for her radical deconstructivist designs. In 2004 she became the first woman to be awarded the Pritzker Architecture Prize. She was also known as the “Queen of the Curve” for buildings such as the Heydar Aliyev Center in Azerbaijan with its gently sloping and yet zany curves.
SHOW CLIPS
A BLOCK
INTRO
About Zaha Hadid
LEADERSHIP
Building the Unbuildable
Making the Most when you Can’t Control Your Destiny & Lack of Women in Architecture
On Teamwork
BUILDINGS
A Look Back on Her Work
B BLOCK
MENTAL MODELS
Doesn’t Believe in Compromise
The Importance of Teaching
Weakness into a Strength
TRANSCRIPT
Hello and welcome to the moonshots podcast. It's a very special episode, 50 I'm your cohost Mike Parsons. And as always on this very special anniversary, I am joined by the man himself, mr. Chad Owen. Good evening, Brooklyn. Hey, I'm in Manhattan this afternoon, Mike, but yeah, 50 episodes. Can you believe it?
Chateau and 50 episodes. And we've got more ideas, more innovators to decode than ever like the list of future shows is. Off the chart. It has been so much fun and chatted. It's crazy that no matter what area of study we go, investors, founders, artists, creators, architects, designers. Yeah. The lessons coaches.
Yeah, crazy. Like they all have, there is a hidden code. Of behaviors and mental models that they all use. And I'm just blown away on these architectures, how we're seeing, how closely aligned the patterns of success that they use to do amazing things. They're so close to. Radically different industries.
Yeah. It's, it's been fun for me to revisit past shows as I'm trying to connect the dots even more. I find myself going back and revisiting. Oh yeah. Well, you know, we talked about so and so in such and such on this episode. So I go back and listen to their episodes. Um, it's really been a lot of fun.
Rediscovering the insights and wisdom from, uh, previous subjects. I know, I know. I I've really, I've really enjoyed. This architect series a so far, we've had Frank, Gary and Norman foster. I mean, you know, easily the two heavyweights of modern architecture, but then we kind of went back in the time machine and I felt Frank Lloyd Wright was really cool.
Didn't you chat? Yeah, he's a bit of an odd ball, you know, he's like this interesting mix of kind of like philosopher and curmudgeon. And, um, it's really interesting. I mean, I, I kind of know of these architects through Mesa, mainly just kind of pictures of their architecture and maybe experiencing a few.
Of their buildings, but yeah, getting to unpack what they've said and kind of their mental models has been really interesting and they've all been quite different. And our subject today, uh, Zaha Hadid Dame Hadid is, is no different than providing yet another, uh, interesting and diverse perspective for us as we, uh, are crossing the halfway Mark in our architects series.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Zahara her, did she is. I am an absolute powerhouse. And if you thought. That the previous three architects were disruptive or pushed against the status quo. I think Zack Zahara gives them a run for their money. I mean, this, this lady has won every single architecture prize of international renown.
I'm probably heading the way there is the Pritzker prize in 2004, she's done a limpic centers, massive buildings, but regardless of all the fanfare, if you actually look at two of her primary buildings, the vitro fire station and the HEDA, you can try and say this one, right. Ali center in Baku, Azerbaijan.
If you look up these buildings. They are incredibly striking. The vitrified station was her first project. Chad. And the crazy thing is, um, they asked her to design some furniture and through the process, the, uh, the F the vitreous. Yeah. Why station client was so in love with Zahara and her vision, they said, well, maybe a chair is not grand enough for you.
Would you actually build the entire building. And so if everyone Googles it, it's called the vitrify station and Zaha. I did put that in. You'll get it. It is. In 1991, it sort of is forged out of the ground in this diagonal angle or futuristic. It is crazy. And it is still to this day. People literally flock to have a look at a fire station because it's ridiculous.
It's amazing. Yeah. And that's certainly the building that put her on the map and. Compared to the Hadar Ali of center in Azerbaijan, you can see the evolution of her work and I will get to this a bit later, but I think what's really interesting to me is to see how Zaha and her studio and her partner, Patrick, who she kind of founded the studio with really embraced this concept of parametric design, which, which means using algorithms and computer aided design.
To help kind of pretest and engineer, these really wild, organic free flowing shapes that you would never think could work as a building, you know, at that scale. And yet somehow, uh, she and the team. Make it work and you can look at many of her other buildings and see the evolution of this style. Like, like you mentioned.
Yeah. She, you know, her, her studio built, designed the London Olympics aquatics center. Which you know, was featured in the 2012 Olympics. And there's, there's so many more buildings, far, far, too many to list. And they're all over the world, Michigan Scotland, Seoul, Korea, South Korea, Beijing, Belgium, Cincinnati.
I was not any place that she hasn't hasn't built. Yeah. And obviously being a woman in architecture, which is notoriously a boys club, she. She put her signature on not only those buildings, but I think in the industry overall. So I'm really excited because this show we're going to have, we've got a lot of good stuff.
We've got some, uh, some thinking and inspiration from her around leaderships, how she approached certain buildings. So I think there's. There's a couple of really cool insights there and actually some of the mental models that she's used. And, um, so it's a real treat for our listeners today because we've got the opportunity to do code one of the bravest resilient innovators of recent times.
Unfortunately, Zaha Hadid is with us, but her work certainly is her legacy certainly is. Chad Owen, I am ready to rock and roll. Where do we? Yeah. And so, um, is that, how has a Rocky born and she's still got a pretty heavy accent. So some of these clips, Mike and I will help kind of put some more context on what she's saying.
If you don't have the luxury of going back and re listening to them, but. Yeah, we've got some really great introductory clips about Zaha and her work in someone that we have heard from before on this show talking about here. So here's a, here's an introduction to Zaha. She's regarded as one of the industry's best was the first woman to win the Pritzker prize architecture.
There's highest honor. One of the most prolific and lauded architects. And then last 10 years has been a very, I think ambitious projects by many cities became really a way to represent. And therefore the ambition has
she's an engineer
and
what she's doing
Zoho recognized early on that the computer could be used as a drawing tool. It could help you invent new forms. Shapes. What's an extraordinary contribution. She she's made to architecture.
Okay. If you have a concept which could apply to many layers, Very small thing.
there are maybe one handful of figures like her in the world with that kind of architectural imagination, that's kind of determined drive and that kind of will to persist. The will to persist. That is so Zahara. And when I think of how that relates to the founder's journey, or even if you're a corporate executive, like seeing things through, like, that's what it really takes.
Hey Chad. Yeah. And this interesting, uh, description of her as an engineer and architect and artist, this kind of Renaissance woman archetype, if you will, is very interesting and something that we've seen. Across many of the people that we've profiled is that they're not, some of them are singularly focused on one thing that they're doing and others actually, uh, you know, split their time and attention and, and focus.
In these cross disciplines. And I think she's definitely someone that has benefited from dabbling in all of those areas. I think what she got known for at first, when she was in school in the UK was the striking abstractness of many of her drawings and diagrams that too many people there look more like art than like architectural plans and designs.
And so, uh, it's really interesting to see how she. That design and artistic aesthetic. You can see in all of her buildings because they are so strikingly unique, but then like the art, the engineer inside of her to make sure that it, you know, that it can withstand the weather and earthquakes and it'll actually stand up when he, when you build it.
Yeah. That's very much a, this idea of Renaissance thinking of this multi-discipline, uh, approach to the world. And it's certainly, it's certainly. I think was something that the industry and her peers recognized about her. And this next clip that we have is actually from Norman foster, who we featured two shows ago.
And this is a very, um, this is a wonderful opportunity to hear what her colleagues thought of Zaha Hadid. Everybody knows that Zaha was a fantastic architect. And, and in a way you never take that for granted, but it's a, it's a given for me, Sahar was also a very dear friend one, tremendous disappointment is that I was never able to tell her an insight from one, I have a very special client.
She'd done a house for him, this extraordinary house in the forest in Russia, it was the only house that she'd done. I met this individual by chance at the dinner party. And he was saying, look, you know, this is what she promised. This is what she'd delivered. It's an extraordinary resolution of this futuristic image.
And the built reality saw, uh, the futurist dynamic architect of the future. Yeah, the Zaha, the futurist it's, it's not, yeah, it's not many times you hear architects referred to as futurists, but I think it's a really fantastic way to think about and understand how she thought about not just. How things were built and designed, but kind of the purpose of architecture was really to move forward, how people interacted with, with space and how cities, uh, function.
Uh, I think that idea of, of futurism and pushing things beyond where you think that discipline can go was, was really what she was driving forward. And I think is a big, as Norman says, a big reason why she was, you know, Is owed all of the accolades that she, that she got. Yeah. And I think that you have to be so brave to bring it Asher in the new, because there's so much risk.
And I think this is what we can learn from Zach. Uh, she, she sort of, you can see her almost delighting and the risk of creating something wildly different. And in fact, you know, you mentioned it earlier, like often people would look at her plans and say, that's impossible. If you watch any of the documentaries on her, they will often bring in the engineers who particularly in the early days, when she would bring the plans, they would just be like, nah, that can't be done.
But, and to build that using what kind of material, no way. And she was so resilient, she was so like lady Gaga, You know, she was courageous, relentless. And, uh, this next clip is, gives us a little bit of insight into her world about how she built the unbuildable in 2004, you became the first woman to win the Pritzker prize, which is sort of like the Oscars of the architectural world.
And the words to introduce you were her architectural career has not been traditional or easy. How would you characterize your journey so far? I think, you know, there was a, there sounded positive taking your career. And you know, at the time when I finished school, I mean, you know, I was very young and I, you know, you make a certain decision, uh, in a way you go.
Yeah. But I mean, he thought even when I was to school, that there was an kind of a glimpse, then there could be another kind of world, you know, and it does what you build and, um, Well, I naively or not, I took it that decision that to pursue something which required a tremendous amount of research and hoping for 11 of invention.
And it was very difficult. And I think, you know, it was no one I'm very accustomed to two women architects w first within the profession and later within the field. So that was another difficulty, but also, but he was, I was a foreigner, you know, I was a foreigner in the UK, uh, you know, and, uh, although I've lived here now, most of my life, uh, there, um, so that was another difficulty.
Uh, but it wasn't really because of the, the, the extremeness of the work, you know, That one had to kind of fight. And of course these fights makes you not necessarily cynical or whatever just makes you tougher, you know, and you have certain beliefs and strengthen your beliefs. And I think is an important, although at the time difficult journey, but was important.
Yeah, absolutely. Cause you know, you're famous for designing these buildings that I'm into others are the stuff of dreams they cannot possibly exist. In reality, it's some even said that your designs were outright on buildable in Hong Kong. Actually you must be referring to your 1983 project, the pig, right.
Which was sort of a spa and a sports. When was, as you know, it was a kind of a, a club. Uh, in a way, but that in that project we did, we thought it should be more like a civic building. I mean, it's an, it's a nice idea. That was a lot of occupation at the time of dealing with the metropolis. Then you have, you have a place of release, you know, you release your, you know, you relax and, you know, whatever the thing is, because first the way they were drawn, they were not, uh, traditional drawings the way they were.
Looks so, and people saw these kind of beams flying around and I thought, you know, it's not possible to do, but actually that was project was easy to build on many of the other project we actually took on later. Wow. She's got this whole thing, Chad, where everything that keeps most of us down are all the blows that we take, trying to make our dreams come true.
It's almost like she's like. I get stronger. Yeah. Yeah. Pushing this idea of pushing to the extremes actually strengthens her, her positions. I think we've got some more clips along these lines, but I would encourage everyone to Google Hong Kong peak, PA K. Zaha Hadid. You'll see these drawings that, that the interview is referring to.
They look kind of like Picasso or Cubist paintings, like not like architectural drawings that you would submit for, to an engineer to figure out if you can build it or not. And it's really interesting, like she was kind of even ahead of her own time, because she's talking here about, well, all the other buildings that we made were actually harder than this one.
So, you know, to me, this. Constant, like looking around the next corner and then looking around that corner, that kind of thinking, I think is how she was able to break through, into this like dreamlike world that, that the interviewers mentioning here. Like she's not, she's not someone that starts with. Kind of the ground truth and reality as it is today, she's like she's thinking and going way into the future.
And then she's like, okay, well what's the future of the future and what I'm taking, what I'm getting and what I'm taking away from them. Yes. Is that that's, that's actually a really interesting insight into how we could put ourselves into that 10 X or moonshot. Mindset, because many of us kind of look at, we do a lot of research and we kind of survey competition and what's going on today, but that may actually not get us to where we need to go.
We can't, we need to take extreme viewpoints and then we need to take extreme viewpoints from those extreme viewpoints. And then that that's how we're actually going, going to get there. So I'm really encouraged by, by her and just her willingness and comfort to just push. Very far, like beyond the next horizon.
So how do you think we can use this idea of pushing yourself to the edges, uh, encountering pushback and disappointment and it making you stronger, Chad? Like how do we make that turn for those of us who are like, I'm trying to do something great. You know, it's very easy to get fed up with things because you've just been trying to track how, what is the term that she uses and what could we use to make that shift?
I think from her, her ability, like this grit and resilience comes from her life experience, you know, she mentioned I'm an immigrant, I'm a woman. I think her constantly persevering through that. Built the resilient F you know, work ethic that, that she has. So in some ways I'm kind of saying, well, you just gotta push through the hard work to, to build the resiliency.
And that seems maybe a bit like a cop out of an, of an answer, but I think she's not someone that, so stubbornly stuck to her opinions where she didn't allow outside influence or her ideas to be tested. Cause you know, she still had to get approvals and. Had to go by the engineers. And so, but she was willing to put out those extreme ideas and not kind of keep them to herself because she kind of let those extreme ideas play out in kind of public discourse.
She's able to kind of slowly over time, win people over to her. Side and being like, well, actually, maybe, well, let's try it. Let's see if we can do it. Okay. So it seems like this deliberate choice to put things out there to make yourself vulnerable is almost interrelated with becoming stronger and therefore more confident.
And Boulder in your vision. And it's almost, I see it as some sort of snowball effect that she built. She, she from, you know, being an immigrant, uh, being a woman, trying to come with radical, new thinking into a conservative feel. Every step of the way she was fearless in seeking interaction and feedback.
And she just got battle-hardened that's, that's how I see that process evolving. Do you think, do you think that's how it works? Yeah. When we've, we've got a great clip here, this very next one. She's been able to make the most when she can't control her own destiny. So rather than get fed up or give up, she instead.
Turns there's that stoic idea of the obstacle is the way where the thing and what you're struggling against is actually the way that you will get yeah. Through it. And I think she's definitely kind of a, maybe as an unknowing, uh, uh, in that. Yeah, exactly. Um, but here she is talking about making the most, when you can't control your destiny.
So date is one of the most interesting architects in the world. She is sometimes called architectures one, another diva. She's a leading member of the avant garde of architecture. She won a claim at age 33 for her design. The peak club in Hong Kong famous work to date is probably the vitro of firehouse in Germany, but that may change.
He's getting lots of, of attention for her design for the contemporary arts center in Cincinnati, Ohio. I am pleased to have her here to talk about what she is doing. There was a time. When you were a young architect, you design the peek club, got lots of attention, never built. Well, I mean, as an arc, again, you don't have complete control of your destiny.
That was one of the frustrations of this profession. Um, I wanted to pick club literally at the time. Um, Maga Sacha went to China and that whole thing with Hong Kong kind of vanished and, um, the whole market collapsed. And so we always see it as kind of the reason for these things, but we have no control of political situations.
And, and of course, when I won the peak, I mean, when I, for a day they did not know who it was, who wanted, they never heard of me, by the way, there's a guy that called me at mr. Hadid. And I, when they discovered was a woman that was a bit of, kind of. Laughing going on. Uh, but, um, if we don't have a control of that situation and I think that there is, there still remains a slight, um, Cloud, uh, what is this a painting of a woman architect?
I'm not sure why it's dissipating now. Well, I think it's it's yeah, I think there are more women is seen. It's not seen as a kind of a, such, such an strange thing. Uh, they are very good men, you know, should be. I mean, why, why do you think that it was a male preserve for so long? Um, I really, I mean, people ask me this all the time.
I have no idea. It doesn't make ma I mean, I'm not saying it's a, it's an interesting question because I actually don't, I don't have a particular expansion for it. I think it's not just the, the thing with architecture is that the profession is mostly male, but also the Lorraine industries, I may have dominated.
I mean, whether the contractors' world or the developer's world or whatever it may be, uh, it is, you know, like the trade is mostly men, but I think it will change like anything else, you know? Hmm. I love her pragmatic view on things like, even when discussing these great challenges, she's like, yeah, it was tough, but I just kept going.
Like it doesn't it's she's not, um, I don't know what the word is, but she's not dripping in this highly emotional hands in the air. Ah, you won't believe it stoic. This is all about yeah. Stoic. I just got home. Yeah. I can't control these things. So I'm just going to deal with it and do, do what I can take, take charge of the things I can control and really push for them.
So she's like, well, no one can. Tell me how to design something. So I'm going to put out all my crazy ideas and maybe one of them will stick. Yeah. And don't you find this idea of one of justice worrying about the things that you control and worrying a lot less about things that you cannot control? I have found this to be, be a really powerful thought that I actually, I could do a better job.
Of remembering that in a way Zahara, Zahara is reminding me, like, dude, just focus on what you do and what you can control. Right? Yeah. I mean, you and I were talking about a specific work thing that's been going on and yeah, we could, we could get upset and him and her, but ultimately it's something that was not our choosing someone decided to go in a different direction and we have to make.
The best of that. Yeah. I mean, we could waste, we could waste the rest of the week and complain and get upset and that way our star Wars, but what good is that going to do as Mike? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and also, I, uh, you win some, you lose some, but the winners keep going, right? Yeah, yeah. This, this. This resilience and grit that is built up over time of this constant pursuit of, of your, your dreams and desires when it comes to your, your profession and your work.
It's, it's a really strong message that I think. I don't want to say it's solely in the realm of the women that we have profiled on the show, but it's certainly overrepresented that like of thinking of Martha and Oprah and lady Gaga, and now Zaha, they, they all really exemplify this. Relentlessness and grittiness, mostly you do to all of, all of the things that are stacked against them, uh, B because of their, their race or where they're from, or, or their gender.
It's, it's really, it's really an interesting quality for me to kind of tie together between all of them. Isn't it funny though, this, this, this individual's has come up with these wildly creative. Uh, futuristic, uh, memorable architectural designs and buildings and this massive legacy around her work. And then what we're finding is there is this stoic resilience that is maybe her biggest gift for us to learn from like that.
That's like so cool. And that's one of the reasons on our 50th anniversary here. Chad, why I love this show because you are finding. Yeah, we're on our 50th moment of discovering that the great work people have done is always got an underlying of behaviors and habits and rituals and mental models. And resilience is certainly one of them where I think we go.
Next level. Chad is when you think about her, is that she, for all her creative talents, Doesn't see herself as the Sage in the tower, dreaming up ideas and passing it to her assistant. Say, go make me this building. Uh, she's actually got some great thinking what it takes in terms of a group of people to make something special happens.
So let's have a listen to Zaha Hadid on the idea of teamwork. Awesome. I always believe in teamwork, so it's not that you know, there's going to be the hand of the master. And then the others will work it out. It doesn't work like that. It's works like a group of people as a team come together, they put ideas together and we test them out and see what works best.
And also it's not that they send us not the master and the other people it's, you know, it's more, what we all bring to the table. As far as I'm concerned is the effort on all the people involved in the teams is what matters. Uh, then you know, the idea of one single person I have, of course the privilege.
Oh, the rider veto. I can say I don't like it. I mean, people think I'm being very frivolous, but, uh, you know, but I don't like, it means it's not right as far as I'm concerned and, but there's arguments all the time between, especially me and the senior staff. And, and I think, but, but of course, you know, I always want to push the idea as far as possible to get a very good result.
That's my ambition. I mean, I've spent a lot of time doing this because not because there's some sort of, I mean, when I said odd 30 years ago, I never thought I'll be one known or, you know, I don't do anything. I just, I was more, I really thought when I was at school, that there was another way of doing things and then the chick and I believed in progress.
And I think that if we do enough research and, and, and w we can push the envelope and we can get better results. And that's what I was wanting to do. Yeah. There's this interesting. I have this mental picture in, I think her studio is over 400, maybe even close to 500 people today. You know, there's like an impassioned group of, of architects around maybe some models or printouts of, of, of designs.
I'm sure they're using three D printers now in Zoho. Is there like in a very Steve jobs, like. Way, like, I don't think it's good enough and it's maybe that's true. But I think really what she's trying to push the team to do is, is just to make it better. Like it may have been really great, uh, to begin with, but this idea of pushing the idea as far as possible, um, is a very interesting leadership model and something that we have seen in, in others.
We don't maybe have kind of the in depth. Uh, kind of anecdotes, you know, from biographers that we're talking about Steve jobs and where he kind of comes off as a bit of a jerk, I think Zaha has maybe a little bit more justice farm, but maybe in a gentler kind of way they're velvet hammer. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. And I think what you sensed already is when she was having her write a veto and saying, I don't like it. That was code for push further. Like it wasn't so much her personal whim. She, it was a challenge. I know you can do better. I know we, the team can do better. Right. Um, and I think it's, you know, when you reflect on this idea, That she had of almost are to stick creative architecture.
Second, when she was creating visions of the future. I mean, you heard in some of those clips, people just like, I can't believe that is a building. Like that's impossible. She made the impossible happen and. Um, having the, the, the courage for that vision was a big part of her, her leadership. The second thing was she embodied like she would make a Seneca and the Stoics proud.
I mean, she's like, bring me adversity, bring me challenge. And you will only make me stronger. I mean, that's such a huge learning and she, she continually challenged teams to push. The ideas that they had further. I mean, there's already like a lifelong lesson in leadership, but all of that leadership chat actually produced.
Some pretty amazing buildings. I feel like we got to get into some of the buildings a bit where, where should we start on that journey? Yeah. So we have this interesting clip, just really just giving a bit of a retrospective on many of the buildings that she's known for. And, um, I would encourage all of you to make mental notes or actual notes and Google all of these, these buildings after, uh, after the show and, and.
Most of them, if not, all of them will be in our show notes as well@moonshots.io. But here's a look back on body of work, Dames designed buildings that could look as fluid as mercury, while appearing as light as a leaf. Since you as parabolic shapes became a trademark of her architectural aesthetic, leading to her being called the queen of the curve.
Her creations were always, eye-catching often draw dropping and sometimes controversial people forgot what you can do through modern work. You know, there was an obsession with historicism, a vernacular. First modern. So the idea of new was almost alien. Saw her, her dad was born in Baghdad and studied maths at university before moving to London in the seventies to train as an architect, she set up her own practice shortly afterwards, then found there were no takers for her.
I haven't got ideas. I was women. I did strange stuff. I think they're all together intertwined, but there was definitely has been, and I still remain it's much better now. There's a definite stigma too, about the woman thing. It was this Cubist inspired building in Germany. That proved to be her big breakthrough.
Soon. Her ability to mix old school craft skills with revolutionary new computer programs saw her emerge as one of the most exciting and innovative architects of her generation. I think she has added an enormous amount of language to architectures she's she's devised shapes that we never thought that we could do.
I never thought that any architect could do, uh, I've noticed something, you know, there's a lot of architecture that is a sort of variant on the architecture that's come before, but she did, she did shapes it gobsmacked you, her visual flamboyance proved popular abroad, but less so in the UK, her adopted home where she really only made her Mark on the public's consciousness with her aquatic center, the 2012 London Olympics to be accepted as a, an architect.
And the thing is, I'm not sure it's funny and done. Not here, not in this country, I'm still considered to be on the margin, you know, despite all these things. And I don't mind being on the edge, actually, it's a good place to be. She had a reputation for being short tempered and difficult while some of her buildings who criticize it being impractical and overblown.
There's no doubt. She was uncompromising a characteristic that allowed her to overcome prejudice and skepticism, to design some truly remarkable buildings, which you received multiple awards. Dames or her deed was a trailblazing visionary. She leaves behind an extraordinary body of work to be marveled at, by generations.
Happy on the edge, Chad. I mean, everything we were saying in the leadership, she's like, yeah, I've done some amazing things. And yet the Brits, they still haven't quite accepted me as an architect. I guess that puts me on the edge. That's fine by me. I mean, Is she just the old summit obstacle is the way, I mean, we don't have it better example than this.
Yeah. And like very punk too. Yeah. I, I think kind of her, her age is her age was, you know, of such a time where, especially in Britain, like, I guess she moved in the seventies, you know, which was really the rise of the punk era. Like there's, there's a bit of punk. In her as well, that I think is really interesting and quite contrasting to many or most of, of the people that we've profiled here.
But as, as we've learned, it's really served her well. Yeah. And, um, so often we search as humans for being accepted by the center. Um, yeah, what her success has been rooted in is not being in the center, but being on the edge and thinking wildly differently. And you just need to look at her buildings and you're like, you I'm just searching on Google as we talk here, I'm looking at these places and they are there.
I mean, the formula. Is that she thought differently. It's not even like, you know, you look at faster and to a lesser extent, Geary and you can see a certain signature styling. I mean, I look at Zahara and sometimes their curves or sometimes they're angles. Sometimes they're tall. Sometimes they're small.
The variety of this punk architecture is breathtaking and it does feel like you're somehow transported onto the set of blade runner. I mean, the future is now. Yeah. Yeah. In one of the buildings that put her on the map here in the U S was a contemporary art center. She built in Cincinnati. We have a clip with Zaha talking to Charlie Rose, and what's really interesting is how she was trying to bring the urban scape into the building.
Uh, so as you were moving through the building, it kind of brought the urban landscape inside of it, but, uh, let's get to Zaha and Charlie talking about the contemporary art center in Cincinnati. So what's the challenge here. You're first of all, you're an artist and you love contemporary art. Yes. So this is interesting because you're going to design a building in which there is an engagement between.
Somebody who comes to this public building, the contemporary arts center in Cincinnati and art. And more than that, this is interesting because you want to, the curator, the director wants to create a building where artists will design will create art for the building, which has to do with space. I mean, when it does, anybody's building, it's another collection museum except borrowing music.
Basically. That means that there's exhibitions in it. Yeah. It means that they need tremendous flexibility on one hand, but they also need an identity, you know, as a kind of a, as a figure. Yeah. Also I think, I think that these, uh, all these products need to it'd be aspect, which you say, what does it do for the city?
What is the feedback to the city? And therefore it is what it was seen as the grant, for example, is seen as a, really an extension of civic spaces in the city. So you can enter, the museum can sit down and have lunch, whatever, and you don't have to really, you can only pay. If you have to pay when you go to the back of the building.
And also when we thought about it's, how, because of these two possibilities of potentials of flexibility and specific city, but because of entity and entity, hobbies could be seen as spares, which could be predesigned. Sometimes it's almost like a kit, right. Of how you can have very small spaces, which may be there with a projection installation to very vast.
It was a very big show. Uh, that is, I mean, I really love hearing how she thought about that building because it contributed to all the different stakeholders that she mentioned, but it was like a, a starter kit, a canvas, a platform for the artists themselves. And if I remember the story correctly, the curator had not been hired.
When she built the building. So she really in, in, in effect was the curator. So what happened is she had to think of a space that would serve and inspire artists. And within that, doing that job, it needed to serve. Not only the people that came to the city or came to the space, but all the people inside of the city, you get the sense of this dialogue, that the building is between all these different stakeholders.
And you get a sense of the complexity of thought that goes into making what some people might think. Well, you just make a building, but there's such a bigger conversation, a bigger idea around the building. Yeah. And I think Zaha was a big. Proponent of, Hey, let's take a look at not just the quote unquote client who's, you know, the board of the museum.
Let's take a look at all of these users and how can we make this a space? That's not only a great experience. For patrons who are going to the museum, but the artists that are creating exhibits specifically for that space for, for Cincinnati, the city and, and so, and so many more. So she kind of, she broadened the, the view or the need to address as many users as possible to really make the building as successful as it could be because it's speaking to so many needs.
Which I can only imagine is a really hard thing to do, but I think it's it. I'm sure it's a big contributing factor to why her buildings are so successful. So well, trafficked so well received by not only the direct clients, but the cities in which they're built, you know, there's cities that were clamoring for, for her to build in their cities because.
Of how active and activated these, these built environments were. Yeah. And which takes us back to Gary, who was the first to really do this when he did Bilbao. Um, they now talk about the Bilbao effect, which is when an architect creates such a signature piece, that it transforms the local neighborhood environment and community and regenerates it.
Through a, just a big dose of inspiration, um, and followed yeah. And expanded on that idea dramatically. And I just think, you know, to kind of wrap up out indulgence in her architecture, one is I just say, go on to Google. Putting Zaha did best buildings and it is a visual feast. Isn't it? Chad? I mean, I'm just looking at it right here and I'm just like both you and I are just, yeah, we have like six tabs open each on different buildings.
I know, I know what's on your browser tab right now. I'm staring at the same incredible photography as well, but you touched on this earlier. There's so much behind the architecture. In the, in the thinking and mental models that I think allows her to come up with and create such okay. Big and grand ideas fundamental to that is this idea of not believing in compromise.
So she, she goes out to the edge and stays there and just simply doesn't compromise. So here's her talking about just that. I don't like the word compromise, uh, to start with because, you know, I think that, um, you know, we know we are kind of professional and we know that in every project you have to be quiet, uh, kind of, um, smart and the way you can interpret the work to suit the client or the requirements or the quieter client.
So the city or planning or whatever it is. Uh, I've known for a long time, but as long as I maintained the ideas, the central idea to the project, and I can adjust the work to suit, then I think it's not uncommon. I sometimes in some cases, actually it makes the work better. If you, if you have to go around a certain problem.
Uh, you know, so I think there was always a demand to, I think for a long time, people did not respect the profession of architecture and it was seen as a service and it was like the duty of the architect to always kind of dumbed down the idea. But I think he can still maintain the central idea, but you can, you can make it work.
Now, what was really interesting about her comment? About going around problems can make projects better. Is. I don't even know she realizes, but her specific thinking as to an architectural project directly mirrors her whole life philosophy of being stoic, living on the edge, being tougher through adversity, that directly comes back in her work.
She says actually facing the challenges with the clients and the constraints. This actually makes the work better. I'm not even sure if she realized it, but it's a huge correlation. Yeah. Who knew that this would become this, the stoicism show?
It's funny. I mean, you're helping me draw that connection to me cause I don't think I. It clicked until, until you just said it, this idea, I mean, this is something that I really want to get better at and take home with me and work on is to, there's also an element of simplicity in what she's saying.
She's, she's saying if you can find and hold onto the central idea, kind of everything on the edges, you know, you can figure out how to overcome, but as long as that central idea is really executed upon, then. You know, then you're brave ideas kind of safe from being watered down. She's like a perfect example of, you know, how we can not water down ideas and the way she works in the way she thinks is completely antithetical to, you know, the constant chipping away or the watering down of ideas, which.
It's kind of like the reality or in most places in the reality of how most of us think about doing our work, we, you know, it's like, well, I don't have enough time or I don't have enough capacity or, well, we don't know I have enough for research or we're not really interested in taking that big shot if we all just kind of stuck to our guns.
So to speak as a, as aha did maybe, uh, maybe there would be some more moonshots out there. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I think what goes hand in hand with, you know, solving problems, working within the constraints, holding onto the ideas, particularly in a craft that is both art and science is the act of learning and the act of teaching.
And I'm remarkably enough, this next clip. This is aha. Sort of getting our heads now into like, well, how do you grow? Your skills and behaviors in this ultimate challenge. So let's have a listen to Zaha Hadid on the importance of teaching. People always think, you know, people always ask if they don't know who don't not in education, they always say, Oh, you know, teaching, because it gives you some ideas when that's not really the reason you're teaching.
I think it's a very reciprocal experience. And also to teach it, you can, it can test certain ideas. It's not that you want to test them. It's not, they're not like a students are Guinea pigs, but. You said a sudden ideas which are very suitable in terms of education to test certain things. I don't believe only in the kind of, um, I believe in not only in a kind of a metaphysical project or metaphoric, but more a project where it eventually could be achieved as a, as a building.
And I think it was very important to him when I was a student that this idea of pushing certain ideas, which seem quite extreme to the mainstream. Uh, I was the most important, so I think dusting and these ideas of schools are very exciting. And I believe also that people and the professionals should also teach because they're, there should not be this big gap between the student body and the profession.
They're not, and they're not necessarily two worlds there run of ideas and the world factors should be very similar or connected. And that's why I like teaching. So we've often in here, people that we've profiled, Mike, talk about their learning practice or the importance of, of lifelong learning. I like Zaha as addition to this, in that she's kind of looking at it from the other direction and saying, well, the teaching part is important because it's not just about theory know, so we can learn all day and learn all the theory.
But if you're not putting it into practice, then. Then it can get lost. And so it's interesting. And I think she's also kind of saying that she learns best through teaching because she can throw out these wild and crazy ideas to her students and kind of see what they do with them. So maybe some of them take, take those ideas and run with them and she's like, Oh, okay.
So this thing that was only like an idea or a theory in my head. I infected my students with this idea and they went off and actually, you know, a few of them were able to pull it off. So it's an interesting way for her to kind of test out her ideas at scale, uh, with, with her students. I think it's really fascinating.
Yeah. And I love how she, she gave a little, uh, uh, reference that teaching is reciprocal. And I thought that was really neat because it's certainly a theme for me is that if you want to learn something, teach it. And inside of that means if you're going to teach it, you need to know what you're talking about.
So I really, I really liked that and I liked the way that teaching for her. Is constant prototyping of new ideas, not of new theories alone, but theories that could eventually create in practical ideas, buildings that could get made. So you can kind of see this huge learning engine that builds up with her because she pushes to the edge.
She stays there. She's not compromising out there and she's always learning on the edge. Um, and. I, I th I can just imagine the, sort of the industry that she created. Um, as an individual, just through that sheer force of those practices. Yeah. And I see academia as almost kind of like a user testing ground or like a prototyping ground for her that is much faster than the professional side.
All architects know that building grand buildings. Just takes a lot of time. You got to find a client you've got to design and you gotta be sure it can be engineered. Then you have to build it. Then you have to be sure that it meets spec. And then finally people can occupy it for some buildings or are built environments that can be like 10 years, you know, if you're building a new medical school campus or a hospital or something, but Zoho has kind of found like a hack.
Where she's been teaching for? I think she said her entire professional career. Like as soon as she graduated school, she turned around and started teaching. She can just test out her ideas in front of students and she gets immediate feedback, you know, kind of within the semester, she'll see what studio projects, um, her students are doing.
And she can get that very rapid feedback. I am now trying to figure out how I can get back into teaching so that I can throw out some wild and crazy ideas to get that feedback. I think I, hopefully our listeners know at this point, you and I are a bit addicted to, uh, that user feedback. Uh, when it, when it comes to the products and services and stories that, that we're, that we're creating together.
Yeah. This using academia as this kind of prototyping of ideas. Environment's really fascinating to me. Yeah. Very, very, very energizing. And what's. Particularly important here is what I take away as an entrepreneur is to be in perpetual testing. Like never get too comfy with the status quo, always be testing, get new insights, get new learnings, fail a little bit, learn a little bit.
And I'm sure that. Ended up being such a great source of her inspiration because you look at her portfolio of work and it is breathtaking. It's not like she's got one hit. I mean, she's does back to back, everything is just dramatic. Future draw dropping. It is an incredible body of work, but. You know, that learning process was the key technique, but we wouldn't be signing off the show if we didn't come back to her signature behavior.
I mean, we got the learning thing down. We got going to the edge down, but I think Chad, we might have a clip that really speaks to the heart of . Yeah. Relentless gritty, perseverance through adversity, which, you know, has forged this incredible creative, uh, career of hers. Yeah, here's, here's a great clip from Zaha talking about how to turn our weaknesses into strengths.
Uh, but they do. I think the world generally needs women in it because they do have a different view. I had no, um, sort of, um, role models sort of speak as a woman, you know, for women. So, so, and also, I didn't have to read it. Maybe like all the others, because I'm not a man. And so on. So that gave me a lot of freedom and, and liberated me, you know, and that was really unfortunate.
But of course, on the other hand that Sam, the other problem at goes is that you have, uh, you know, the people that don't at the time, uh, and then nothing woman couldn't do something, things where she would just also so stupid. I mean, um, I think they just, I think you have to, I think to a knowledge and skill.
You begin to have more confidence and that I think mr. Confidence that allows you to so be it persevere. And that was, I mean, you know, I think that women are still marginalized, uh, but, um, it's much better, but it's still quite difficult. I mean, um, I think that, I mean, I find out that most women in my I offer, so, uh, they go out and have children and they do come back.
And it broke my heart and, and, and, and sat down. Okay. I think when they're out for too long and becomes more from continuity, I think in the continuum and architecture is a big problem. You know, you are out of sync or with your colleagues, you don't know what's going on. Exactly. So you need to kind of, you know, uh, Work hard.
And that's what I did. I worked harder than anybody else. Not saying that people can take me more seriously because, because the work I wanted to do, it requires so much more research and resolution that I had to, I mean, were all like very hot. Work hard and then work harder. And you can only do that if you're doing what you love.
And yeah, that is one thing I know for sure. Like you can't manufacture false commitment. It just doesn't doesn't last. But for me, Chad, do you know my, I find it so exciting to look at her work. I'm a big fan of, uh, blade runner. And, um, I feel like I'm like blade runner has entered today. When I look at these bills, it is really.
Exhilarating because you, you do have this sense looking at her work like, Oh my gosh, I could not have imagined that as a building. And then I dunno, there's a real gift in that, but what a gift in, in seeing her resilience and how she's made every challenge, something that's just made her stronger. And, and throughout that process, she's always been learning and testing new ideas and pushing edges.
Oh my gosh. I mean, I'm just, I'm so pumped. I have to go back to the gym now. I'm all pumped up. What about you? I mean, you know, I did a, a bit of cursory research on most of your buildings. Now. I just want to do a lot of in depth research on all of them buildings and, you know, make excuses, my wife to go on trips to, to be able to see them.
And Franklin writes and Norman yeah. Fosters and Frank Gary is that, that's the fun part about this series is, you know, we can go and visit sometimes in our own cities, buildings that have been created by, by these individuals in. Profiling innovators that are working in the built environment. And, and at this kind of scale is really interesting.
You know, it's not, it's not to say that, you know, building rockets and electric cars and the solar futures not also are really, uh, incredible things to be doing. But, um, the, the parallels to all of the previous innovators that we've talked about is just something that was a bit unexpected for me, uh, in talking about.
Architecture. It's, you've got to be in touch with the users. You've got to stick to your bold ideas. You've got to test, you know, it's, it's many of the same, many of the same things. Just a, just a slightly different process. Yes, yes, indeed. Uh, so, um, Who would have imagined that Zahara did had so much to give us quite Epic and, um, but, but puts us on a great course for our final architect, uh, for our next show.
Chad, do you want to kind of prime that and tell everyone what we've got coming? Yeah. So we're rounding out the series of dark Ingles of big. The BR angles group. If, if that doesn't, uh, signal a bit about his ego, I am not sure what would, but he's a very interesting, I think he's one of the best salespeople for architecture can to, to the public, just Google his name and you'll find kind of his pitch videos for some of their projects.
And. Uh, he is able to put a really fascinating and interesting narrative around the buildings that they're building. So, yeah, I'm really excited because he's kind of a blend of my flavor of storytelling with architecture. And I think, uh, we'll be able to learn a lot, uh, from looking at him and what he and his, his team have, have built.
Yeah. He's, he's done some amazing things. Also some adversity in his story. When he started, he, a lot of his architecture was born out of the fact that the first projects had very small budgets. And so he was ingenious in finding workarounds that kind of led him onto this breakthrough set of, of work. And he is risen very, uh, very fast to, to the higher ranks of architects.
So that's going to be. That's going to be wonderful. Um, and yeah. And the connection to, um, the company that we've talked about here on the show we work. Yeah. He's recently tapped his as his kind of chief entrepreneur or a chief architect in residence for, for we work. So yeah, I think. We work probably could have had their choice of any architect and why they chose him, you know, and just have to tune into the next show to find out what was so interesting about him and his work that accompany like we work with with snatch them up.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I hadn't heard about that deal. That's fascinating. Well, um, we have to remind all of our listeners, if you want any of the notes links, uh, if you want to watch or listen to any of our archives, Head off to moonshots.io where you'll get all the goodies, you can get out newsletter. Uh, don't forget to, uh, jump into the iTunes podcast universe and yeah, leave us a review.
Um, we're really, really thankful for all the reviews that we've had. And we would just love to encourage those of you who are enjoying the show. Get in there, tell us what you think. Um, share it. Um, Spread the word. And if you want any of the goodies, just head to moonshots.io and you'll, you'll find everything you could possibly want on from our back catalog shadow and of 50 episodes.
Oh my God. Gosh. Yeah. 50 shows Mike, I don't want to let that pass without giving us a small Pat on the back. I, I look forward to recording many, many more shows with you, Mike, and, um, For all your listeners out there, everything we've talked about on today's show and more links, photos, documentaries, everything, you can find it.
moonshots.io. I saw a couple new, uh, iTunes reviews come in, uh, since our last show. And so I just wanted to ask all of you well, Thank you to all of you who have left a review that makes a big difference and the discoverability of the show. And, um, yeah, just hop in there and leave us a review. And if you, uh, if you go above and beyond and write a little something about the show, maybe one of you, your favorite episodes, or one of your favorite insights or learnings Mike, or I, or both of us will read those out in future episodes.
Um, but yeah, we, we want to thank you for taking the time to leave reviews for the show. Absolutely. So thank you to you, Chad. Thank you to all of our listeners, really excited to jump into the next show with Bjarke Ingels. That's a wrap dude, and that's a wrap for everything today. We'll see you next time.