Phil knight
episode 31
The Moonshots Podcast continues with an investigation of mage brands. We get active with a deep dive into the world of Phil Knight the founder of Nike.
Discover how Phil remains deeply competitive and has created a legacy that stands for product and marketing innovation. All from somebody who hates advertising.
THE BOOK
Shoe Dog: A Memoir by the Creator of Nike
by Phil Knight
show outline
A-BLOCK
More Than Sport
Phil Intro
Bill Bowerman Creates The First Product
How Nike Lab Designed Fly knit
Marketing versus Product
Expert Opinions on Nike Advertising
B-BLOCK
Phil Knight Warrior By Nature
For the love of running
Phil's biggest talent - Picking People
Lessons - Outro
TRANSCRIPT
And welcome to the moonshots podcast. It's a massive episode, 31. I'm your cohost Mike Parsons. And as always, I'm joined by the man with the plan, Mr. Chad Owen. Hello, Brooklyn. Hey there, Mike, how are things in Sydney? There's fine. Morning. Yeah, we've got sunshine even though it's the fall. It's bathing in sunshine here in Sydney.
It's so sunny. I could almost go outside for a run. Yeah. Or a surf, maybe a surf, a run. I tell you what I'm feeling rather sporty. So I feel like we have to divulge the very special show we're going to have today. Yeah. So continuing on the great brands track, we are going to be listening to some wisdom and insights from Phil Knight.
One of the co-founders of Nike and what an interesting character he is because, you know, he's relatively unknown yet. He's created the brand that. Is perhaps one of the top five easily, top 10 brands of the universe, Nike yet he's relatively unknown. Isn't he? I mean, had you heard or seen much of him prior to us researching this show?
No. Aside from the book that he wrote, shoe dog. Yeah. I hadn't really heard, heard much about him, uh, other than, uh, I knew that he was big in the university of Oregon sports and, you know, has donated a lot of money to the school, but yeah, that's pretty much it. Yeah. And I think the, the, the contrast with the brand and the company that he's built is, is.
Enormous. I mean, this is a company that in 1974, interview introduced to the world, the first real, uh, running shoe that what they call the waffle trainer and has just gone on creating a series of iconic shoes and has gone well beyond that. And. For me, it's quite amazing to think that 50 years ago, this was a brand that was literally operating out of his house out of the back of a car.
And now has over 70,000 employees it's worth over a hundred billion dollars, but I think it's played a role in almost. Anybody you talk to every person on the planet has had some interaction with Nike. The brands, most people have owned, worn, used Nike gear, equipment, and shoes. It's a Colossus of a brand.
Tell me, Chad, what's, what's been your experience with the Nike brand. Yeah, well, I must say I have amassed quite a collection of their newer fly knit shoes. They are just so comfy. Oh, I'm with you. I'm literally in a pair as we're recording and I'll confess I have the little Luna Thun. Uh, so it's a very supportive, quite a thick, so, and it's got the upper flying it and.
I have a pair of black ones. I have a plain white ones and that's essentially all that I wear. I mean, I love these things. I mean, they, uh, they just hugged my fate and whenever I get a new pair, And now, because I've now had three or four pairs of the same shoe, I get a new pair and it's just like heaven.
Isn't it? Yeah. Well, it's, it's funny. I'm, I'm kind of late to the game. I feel like for Nike, I think when I was younger, I was a little too. I don't want to say like anti jock, but like, I, I kind of issued, uh, the air Jordans and whatnot. I mean, I had a lot of friends that were obsessed with them, but, um, I must say their product line now.
And even beyond shoes, uh, I think is in terms of active wear and, and, and. Performance gear is, is phenomenal. Yeah, it really is. There's such a fascinating, fascinating, uh, company. When you think about them from design creativity and innovation, I think at the heart of this company is Phil Knight without a doubt.
Uh, he has moved into almost what you would call like a semi-retirement. Now he's sort of chairman emeritus and he's got the new generation running the organization. I think that. What's fascinating, those that he's still, as we said, relatively unknown, but there's also like another twist in the Nike story.
And we're going to go and investigate that as well, which is a lot of people might argue that actually Nike is just good at advertising and without a doubt, they are good at that. But one of the big questions we're going to look into is, um, you know, Is there a real product design and innovation happening here.
And what's really the key, uh, key mix of tools that they use to be so successful because we have to remember that they displaced, uh, Adidas when they came along. Um, they've seen the likes of under armor, um, uh, come along and yet throughout this entire journey, Nike just gets. Stronger. So it's such a great brand for us to look into.
And Phil Knight has, you know, he's a reluctant person in the public eye. He's, doesn't really like public speaking, but because as you mentioned, he's released, he's a new book, shoe dog. He's actually come out of his shell a little bit and shared a lot of the wisdom that is inside of the Nike story. So we're in for a treat of a show.
If anyone wants to grab any of the show notes or links from this, they can head off to moonshots.io and they'll get everything there. But, Oh my gosh, where do we start this journey into one of the biggest brands in the planet? Well, I think we can start with someone that has the initials, MJ, uh, speaking about his relationship to Nike and, and just speaking about, uh, the brand and then Phil.
Um, so here's a, here's a clip to get us started. Gotta be the shoes. You, when a young Phil Knight worked as an accountant while trying to get his fledgling shoe company off the ground, he sensed an opportunity. He co-founded Nike by selling track shoes out of the back of his car and relying on a plan written in business school.
He had his sights set on big things to be able to have the vision of seeing what he wanted his brand to become. It's rare in the mid 1980s Knight boldly enlisted a young basketball phenol in a campaign to appeal to new consumers. He took what he learned about running and applied it to how that can be very helpful to the basketball industry.
And he use athletes to illustrate that. I'm just so happy. He made me a part of the whole process. Yo Mars Blackmon here with my main man, Michael Jordan. In a series of now iconic TV commercials, Nike would forever alter the basketball universe. You encompass everything that Nike was all about, which was, you know, being innovative, not the shoes.
And it became more than a sports thing. It was a part of the, part of the culture. Part of culture. It's so true. Everything that they do in terms of marketing has tremendous capacity to kind of catapult itself out of just traditional marketing and advertising, and seems to become part of popular culture.
And I think this really speaks to the vision. Of Phil Knight as a found that he was so focused on celebrating performance and breaking the mold of the traditional way the running shoe was made. And of course he worked hand in hand with bill Malman and we have a great clip later in the show about how they created the first shoe.
But I think this is a real Testament that. All of these great athletes. And in particular, Michael Jordan then was acknowledging that it was really Phil's vision that built the brand. So if bill Bauman built the first product, it was really filled that built the brand and together it was sort of a.
Knockout sort of a, a pincer movement or sort of a jab in a left and a right. Wasn't it. Great product. Great, great brand. Boom. The company just lights it on fire. Doesn't it, Chad? Yeah, I think the interesting thing for me as, as I'm thinking about it, I mean, I could be wrong, but like, in, in my mind, this arms race for, you know, sponsored athletes and whatnot kind of started in the eighties when Nike brought on Michael Jordan and created air Jordans, which to this day is like, I, I think air Jordans alone is.
Gotta be like tens or hundreds of millions of dollars. Um, he created another Nike, didn't it? It was almost, it gave birth to a whole new brand that is as equally powerful. Yeah. But cause I was trying to think, you know, kind of what are some of those insights and iterations or true innovations that Phil brought to Nike that.
It has caused, you know, much or, or most of its success. And I think it's subtle here, but, you know, Michael Jordan was talking about taking what he learned from running and he's like, well, why don't I do this for basketball? And in once he tried that and had it knockout success with Michael Jordan, well, then, you know, The rest is history, as they say, because now Nike makes products for practically every single active sport on the globe.
That's right. And face. There's a lot of competition as well. I really think this, uh, this, that first clip really kind of sets up Phil and what he really contributed. We've got some really interesting insights from him on those early days. But I think it's important that we go back to those early days and remember where this really started, because we think of Nike as being so big right now.
But actually, uh, when Phil got together with bill Bauman, this thing was as startup as it gets. So let's have a listen now to Phil talking about the early days. You didn't know a lot about management and you didn't have any money. So today the company is now worth roughly a market capitalization of about a hundred billion dollars revenues of about $30 billion, 62,000 employees.
Did you ever imagine when you first started this company? So in the early sixties that it could ever be what it became? Sometimes when I get that question, I say, we're exactly on plan, but you, I can't be a smart ass, but do you mean that wasn't an original question. I thought that was the first person ever asked that.
No, but it's uh, yeah, it's been, uh, A ride that, uh, really nobody could foresee that. Uh, when we started out the total, uh, branded athletic shoe sales in the United States for about $2 billion. So last year we did nine. And so, uh, based on the original year were 450% market share. Uh, so it's, uh, you know, we took advantage of, uh, the running boom, which became a jogging boom, which became a fitness boom.
And, uh, we've benefited from all of that. Yeah, I think for me here, the most interesting takeaway is. They grew the pie, they enlarged the market. So worldwide, it was $2 billion in Brandon running shoes. And today Nike alone is 9 billion, you know, let alone all of their competitors on top of that. And so I think it's just really interesting.
If he has some interesting thoughts on competition that w we're here about a little bit later, but, um, I think he's really content to just be focused on what Nike's doing, because he knows and is confident in the show. And over the past 50 years, that. They can just grow the market continuously by, by creating and promoting really great product.
Yeah. I mean, if you, you, you had to think about the competition with the datas that could have really been a setback for them, but they've gone on to not only tackle that, but also then the introduction of under Armour, which has a very strong words in sort of a, you kind of youth football, gym workout kind of vibe.
Plus Reebok's making a comeback with CrossFit yet their business still. Keeps growing. And I think at the heart of that is that they, they he's alluded to this a little bit in the intro and we'll see more of this at that. They're very close to athletes and the needs of athletes. And actually that's the origin of the business.
That they really wanted to create a shoe that helped you run better. And we have this fantastically coming up and it's the story of the V what is now their very famous waffle shoe. The first really gripped running shoe, very lightweight. Um, this is the story of its origin. So let's have a listen to the story of bill Bauman, as told by Phil Knight.
We really needed that kind of a breakthrough in terms of, of running shoes. That's what we were specializing in at that time in our history. And they said, you know, the outer sole for the running shoe is stayed the same. It's the same kind of wavy pattern. It stayed that way for, you know, over 50 years.
And it has not really any kind of breakthrough. And we had the meeting in, uh, in Portland, environmental was driving back to Eugene, mulling this over for the two hour drive. It was on a Saturday and the next morning his wife, uh, got up. But made waffles and then went to church environment, stayed there, looking at the waffle iron.
And he says, look at that pattern. And, uh, he went out, he was kind of a mad scientist. He had some raw urinating in his, uh, his garage and he went out and he threw it in the waffle iron and pull the, pull the wall top down to, to bake the urethane. And of course he didn't put a catalyst in and the waffle iron was ruined, but he kept going down the road with that idea.
And it was really the first real innovative breakthrough for Nike and put us on the map. Yeah. Use what you have to, uh, to create what you want. Right. It's like the ultimate bootstrapping story. And I just love the fact that the innovation, uh, for, you know, footwear came from the kitchen, having waffles over breakfast and it just.
That just shows you if you're really aware of the problem and you just, uh, are observant and look around the world almost a little bit like brands and like looking around the world, looking for problems and solutions, thinking for a better way. These two were obviously obsessed with how are we going to do it?
He, you know, he, he mentioned that they were just thinking and discussing it for two hours in the car and then. Boom. They're having breakfast, they're having their waffles. And there is the first Nike product by which actually what's really interesting to note is actually made a profit in their very first year, which is, uh, you know, Incredibly rare for any business, but particularly a capital intensive business, like shoe where, where you have manufacturing, you have to produce all the products.
You have to get all of the materials before you start selling. And yet they still made a profit on their phone. Yeah, well, you know, they, Phil was a runner and Berman was his coach and they were, you know, they were. Training at the university of Oregon, which is known for its its track and field program.
So they were in, they were in it every day and yeah, they rolled up in their van with their shoes, had the athletes test them out and then, you know, Barrowman could go back and try different waffle iron pattern or whatever, you know, I'm not sure exactly how the, the initial prototyping of the footwear went, but I I'm sure it was a little, something like that.
Well, it sounds very messy if, uh, if he was just pulling the urethane directly into the, into the waffle maker, but it's crazy to think that that was 50 years ago, Chad, and it's not like they've stopped innovating ever since, huh? No, no. They've uh, They've come up with so many new products in so many different categories, but sticking in a footwear here for a little bit, you found a really interesting clip about how Nike's lab, uh, came up with and designed flying it.
Our favorite, uh, Nike footwear. So here's, uh, here's how the Nike lab did it. Ben Schafer studio director in the innovation kitchen. Um, my role is more on the design side. So a day in the life is, is very much a lot of our minds kind of coming together from sports research, uh, lab, uh, individuals to material specialist, developers, all getting together and talking with athletes sometimes.
And we're just brainstorming amongst ourselves on ways to improve our athletes, make them stronger, faster, and better in whatever performance. Areas that they focus. So flying it merely as a technology where we looked at, uh, at an existing technology that's around us. One that's been around for a number of years knit, um, uh, that, which we wear from socks to apparel and actually trying to re-engineer that for performance.
So in the midst of us looking into that required us to reconfigure machines and build it kind of from ground up this technology so that we could get durability and structure into what would typically be an apparel piece and make it relevant for footwear. So in the midst of that, it ended up allowing us to create fabrics that had in one layer structure, um, breathability and elastic city all created in a way that, uh, that could be used for our elite level athletes at Nike.
Our focus is always on, on elite level performing product for our athletes. And a lot of times that ends up inspiring something visually that's that's aesthetically kind of changing the game on. Sort of the sportswear side of things or more casual side, but yeah, we definitely focus flying it on athletes and focused on one of their big requests, which is an amazing fit.
I wish find it really such to offer us. Well, as a finance officiant, either I can totally concur with the chap there from their design kitchen lab thing and tell you that it is incredibly comfortable. But what sticks out to me, Chad, is they look to waffles 50 years ago. And now they're looking at, I mean, I want you, I want you to go to this moment.
They're sitting around the table. And they're like, let's make a shoe from wall and everyone would have gone, ah, you crazy. But somehow this company has kept the magic and I think it's really important to understand that they. Give us really the recipe on how they're doing that. Do you notice how much they talked about their customers?
So if you look at a Steve jobs analogy, he's customer obsessed, these guys are athlete obsessed. They're always looking to help the runner. Go faster, stronger, better with lighter tools, more adaptive tools. And I think this is a big reminder to all of us that if we want to create something great in the world, it starts with knowing the use case in much like bill and Phil did, but also obsessing about your customer.
I mean, that really came back to me, tad. 50 years later and they're creating a shoe from wall. Yeah. Kind of describe the finances, like sock shoes. They're they're that comfortable? It's like, you know, comfy socks except their shoes. Yeah. And just saying, well, why don't we, why don't we make shoes out of normal or, or somewhat normal textiles?
I think the, the other thing in this, in this clip that was interesting. That's kind of coming to me is they have this interesting. Double focus of elite athletes and, and everyone else, all the other athletes. And. Like w we use the same and wear the same products. Like we can go and buy for the most part, the same footwear and, and performance wear that these, you know, athletes that are getting paid millions and millions of dollars.
And so Nike has this really interesting user base that they're designing for. They're like, we're going to make the best shoe for the best basketball player or best one or two. Uh, it's arguable, if you're, if you're, if you're a LeBron fan, um, you know, for, for, for Michael Jordan and then, you know, kids across the globe can go and yeah, by that same shoe that, that he's wearing.
And so it's, it's really fascinating to me how this kind of bet on elite athletes for them. Pays off because the millions or billions of consumers benefit from, from that. Oh yeah. And I think that that idea of obsess on the highest, strongest, best use case in this case, it's obviously going to be a professional athlete and then democratizing that technology and sharing it with others is, is, is really powerful.
And I think you have to remember that. For a large organization of 70,000 people still practicing product design in a very similar way in way in which it was founded 50 years ago. And, you know, they started with the waffles and they ended up just making the finite from wall. This is the song. This is a great health check because most large organizations find it very hard to innovate twice.
You know, it's the innovator's dilemma, what you make. That is great insight. Killing you and you become risk adverse and all that sort of thing. So they've got this spirit on the inside and I have to say, they've got the same sort of energy happening on the outside. And one of the biggest things that is up for discussion about Nike is many people will tell you that, you know, they're a little bit more like the smart marketing company and the products are like, Hmm.
And a little bit overpriced that's up for discussion, but. I think we want to jump into this next clip and really start asking ourselves not so much. Are they a marketing or a product company, but I, I think we need to ask ourselves, how did they integrate both together? Because in there is really the true art of their innovation.
So let's have a listen now to some thoughts on whether it's marketing or product. Would you say the company Bennett benefited more from being a good marketing company or a good technology company in Lawrence having a better product or having better marketing or combination of both? Well, what I've always said is we're a marketing company and the product is our most important marketing tool.
Yeah. Phil said it, the product is the most important marketing tool. Yeah. And, and what comes off the back of that is you make these great product for athletes. The athletes want to be in the ads. They want to wear the shoes. You can start to see how it all comes together. And I love this idea that their marketing begins with the product.
And I think that is a very powerful lesson. If your product. Is not worth talking about, then there's no point trying to fix a bad product with good advertising because it just doesn't work. So you've got to make sure that your product has a story with sharing that it's contagious, that it brings that, that level of delight and so forth.
But where Chad, this whole situation goes, 10 X is when you've got great products and you put great advertising next term. And we can all remember our favorite, uh, Nike ads, whether it's Jordan, whether it's LeBron, whether those it's those Epic soccer ones from Europe, it doesn't matter. But this is where the compounding on great product and great marketing together makes all the difference.
So now let's have a, have a little bit of a, an investigation. Let's go on a journey into the world of. First time Kennedy and I met Phil Knight. We introduced ourselves and he said, hello. And then he said, I want you to, to know one thing I do not believe in advertising. Phyllis always been a guy who wants something authentic.
So he didn't want to show fashion models. You wanted to show athletes. People who actually use the product. Phil didn't want to sell you something he wanted to help you be something filters wanted Nike ads to move people. Some of it's quite compelling and sometimes controversial, but it's real. Sometimes the most outrageous thing you can do is something really, truly honest.
Fulfills sport is something that unifies us all. So the idea that something like racism would be an issue for an athlete would therefore be an issue that Phil would feel very comfortable communicating.
Let me play, let me play score. I was like myself more. I'll have more. Self-confidence he? Let me play. Well, it's interesting that Nike was introduced to the world the same year that title nine became law, and we've been fighting for the athletes rights. Ever since dad told me I couldn't be a boxer. He said I was too small.
So there was a guy who tried to spit on me and then pushed me out of his way. For a field. If you have a body you're an athlete, you just don't know it yet. Nike's grounded in the relationship we have with the athlete. I think that's what makes Nike advertising stand out. It makes what we have to say, wheel and relevant and meaningful.
I think, feel, believe really deep down that if we do this right advertising and communicating and telling something really provocatively can actually change somebody's life. Hm. I think it's fascinating how the connection and relationship with the athlete Nike's customer is at the core of not just the product, but also.
How they're marketing to them, essentially inspiring everyone and saying, everyone is an athlete. If you have a body, you're an athlete, you don't have to be like Michael Jordan or LeBron. It's such a big idea that everyone's an athlete and it's sort of. Almost it's almost like an Amazonian flywheel effect, isn't it?
Because you involve the athlete in the product, you make it better so that they can be better as an athlete. Then you introduce, you, bring them into the ad to make the ad better, to tell real stories, real stories, work for everyone. You believe everyone's an athlete. And the cycle begins and it's like this enormous freight train of momentum.
This momentum we should, we should remind folks 50 years ago, selling shoes out of the back of a car. Now it is a company worth over a hundred billion dollars, 70,000 employees. And. Every single one of us has a Nike experience, which is really remarkable. And what I think is quite nice about looking at a brand like Nike is we're offering often studying brands with the exception of FedEx.
Most of the brands that we focus on are relatively new and this has such heritage and it means so much to a lot of people. That's why it was so interesting that that Phil decided to. And to actually write a book about this journey. And I, I just reflect on what we've learnt so far, without a doubt, he is customer obsessed and he's absolutely bringing to the game, um, new solutions, like he knows the use case very, very well, and he just brings great product and great marketing together.
And. You know, the rest, as they say is history. Yeah. The power of the Nike story is so wrapped up in, I think, in its, in its value and its worth and in its staying power, you know, I'm just thinking of all of the Nike ads that have been. Inspirational to me wasn't that long ago where there's that ad of the like 13 year old boy, he's maybe a little overweight and he's just like running on this farm road.
Um, awesome ad or something like that. That's every, you know, like I think it's, it's, it's so interesting. How in this idea of, if you have a body, you're an athlete. It connects it's universal. It's this universal message, which then all of a sudden kind of makes the Nike product for everyone. In a way, which I think is a really bold and, but also interesting and has been successful tactic for them.
The other interesting thing is you heard at the beginning there, one of the partners of a very, very famous in my view, the greatest advertising agency to ever live, which is widening Kennedy, and they've been the ad agency of Nike for most of this journey. And it was so hilarious to hear, um, Here the founder.
I can't remember if it was widen or Kennedy, but he, he started by saying, you know, when we were introduced to Phil, so you got two, two ad guys from Madison Avenue turned up and he says, hi, I don't believe in advertising. And they're like, yeah. Um, but despite all of that, they found this commonality in telling real stories.
And that's what makes the Nike advertising so distinct, but it only works. It's only given permission to work because. Products come from the same story from the same place. If the products were a lie, no good advertising will ever fix it. In fact, good advertising will only reveal a bad product quicker.
Right, right. Really, really interesting. Isn't it to see how, how there's this interrelationship between product and marketing from Nike. And I feel like that's the biggest thing I'm taking so far from the show that these two things go hand in hand don't they. Yeah. Yeah. And a little bit later in the show, we have kind of some more personal reflections from Phil on a little bit more about his philosophy and how he spent his time.
And in managed Nike over the course of his over 50 year tenure, actively working inside the company. Now we should probably mention, before we get into the second block, we should probably mention this, uh, this book, shoe dog. Um, I believe the name shoe dog is like a. Like a running a fishy and Ida, like a running shoe, a fishy, not a, like a, like a real zealot.
Is that, is that how, how, what's the story behind that name? I actually don't know. I think it's something like, you know, you're, you're just mad for, for, uh, for shoes and stuff like that, which is. So perfect fulfill, right. You know, he, he was a runner. He wanted to go faster. Bill was a coach. What a great, what a great, uh, combination to put together.
Um, now this shoe dog book is on Amazon. Um, it gets really good reviews and I think it's always interesting. When talking about books from innovators and entrepreneurs, how would you, how would you, uh, have you had a chance to, to read any of shoe dog? Uh, Chad. No, unfortunately, I haven't, it's still on my list it's at, at, at the top, but, um, I haven't had a chance to what advice do you give to people when they're, when they're reading, you've read so many, you know, entrepreneurial biographies and you know, the hero's journey and all that good stuff.
What do you get out of writing these kinds of books? Like for you? What's the real magic of, of reading stories like this. Well, I think you can tell really quickly if they're good or not. And I started the very first, you know, 10 or 15 pages of, of shooting and, and really enjoyed the voice and the content of the book.
Some people have their books. Ghostwritten. Some are written by a journalist or, you know, uh, an investigative journalist or some other author. But for me, it's pretty easy to tell, like losing my virginity, the Richard Branson book, it was far better than the, like a Virgin book, which was not written by Branson, but kind of is about his management practices.
The biography was way more interesting because I can hear Richard Branson in. Yeah. In the book and shoe dog definitely feels the same way where it's coming from Phil and, and not from a ghostwriter or not from a stilted, or we only spoke to him in an interview kind of way this, this, I feel like is definitely his voice.
Yeah, the reviews would suggest that everything I've seen is it's very funny. It's passionate. It starts from the beginning. It's quite humble, quite candid, which again, for him was, uh, something new. So what a fabulous, inspiring story and like who can't relate to Nike. So, so it doesn't really matter what business you're in shoe dog will be for you.
Right. Yeah, it's just this, uh, uh, getting these episodes out to you. The listeners is, uh, putting a crimp on my, uh, my reading back reading time. You're late night to, with the whiskey sitting back and enjoying a good book. Well, let's, let's get cracking and make sure we make time for, for our listeners to go out and read that let's get into the second half of the show.
I really love it. When we go into the second half of the show and we take a bit of a pivot and a different angle. This, this second block for me is starting to get more into Phil and who, and what is he more than it is about the brand itself. And this is going to be action packed for anyone wanting to take on lessons from Phil.
He's a bit of a mystery guy. Isn't he? Chad? I mean, before you researched the show, you know, he's a bit of a hard guy to pin down. What, what would you say? How would you frame film night now, now that we've started investigating the brand and his work and what he's done and why don't you set up this, this first clip, uh, about him.
Well, he's got that rebellious nature that, you know, we've seen in the likes of Richard Branson and Yvon Chouinard. And I think this next clip is a very good example of that. I've never heard a founder CEO talk kind of so ruthlessly about, uh, the competition. So here's, uh, here's Phil talking about his warrior nature.
You mentioned the competition with Adidas, we learn you are fiercely competitive, have been from the beginning. Just want to read this excerpt from the book. I was developing an unhealthy contempt for Adidas you say, or maybe it was healthy. I despised them. Yeah. I'm curious what you make of the competition right now.
Adidas is coming back from a soft patch and there are upstarts like under armor that are making a headway on athletes and on sales. Well, I think I'm sort of a warrior by nature. And so everybody is a concern, but I'm still the same as I was before. I know they asked me on one of the rare TV interviews from 25 years ago, if I wanted to meet the president of rebar.
And I said, no, I says, I don't know him. I don't like him. And I don't want to like him. And I still feel that way about the competition. What about under armor in the U S market? Is there they're one of them there, there are lots of them that we compete with and, but believe me, we will compete. But Kevin plank has a similar story to you started out as an athlete selling t-shirts in his grandmother's basement in Georgetown.
Does he remind you of yourself? Well, I've met him a couple of times. We're different personalities, so they're not really, you despise your enemies still or the competition.
Oh, my gosh, this guy has been kicking ass for 52 years and he's still fighting. Isn't he? Chad? Yeah, I just, I love how strong the language that the, that the reporter correspondent is using despise and dis, did you hear that bit where she's like, ah, so you two, you and Kevin plank, founder of under Armour, you and Kevin playing, you're kind of similar.
No. No, I'm not, I don't want to know him. I don't want to like him. I don't want the, the, the brand is known for being about elite high performance. But if you actually step back and just abstract a little bit, you can see that that's what Phil's all about. Him wants to be the best he wants to kick ass, take names, make it happen.
Um, and. It is really, uh, it was a little surprising to find him 50 years on and he's still full of love and vigor and he's ready for the good fight. He loves competition and he loves the challenge. And boy, does that fill you with confidence about what he's built, if he's still disengaged about the mission of Nike?
I mean, hold on for the next 52 years, because who knows what's going to happen, right. Yeah. Yeah, it might take away from, from this app, you know, very confident, maybe braggadocious attitude is like, if, if you're focusing on the right things and what you're doing in a way, the competition is irrelevant. And I think that's where this confidence come comes from.
You know, he's like, he knows that Nike is doing great things. You know, inside inside of their four walls. And so he's not going to spend too much time worrying and fretting over it. In some times I, you know, I've found myself fretting over competition, a new entrance and all the young guns that are. Right.
Undercutting all of us on pricing and all of those sorts of things. And at the end of the day, it's, I really shouldn't be worried about those sorts of things. I really should just be worried about, you know, how I can be delivering the most value to end customers. And so I, I think that's the insight that I'm taking away.
Well, I don't have quite a, uh, as a confident or, um, ferocious attitude. Exactly. But, um, I, I definitely agree with the underlying message. Yeah, he is. He is there to compete and to do his best and, uh, that love of competition and that drive is essential. Uh, you don't build a a hundred billion dollar company without it.
And the other thing you don't build a hundred billion dollar. Company without his passion. And what a timely reminder here is about the need to really care about the problems that your company souls to care about. The use case to in his, in his respect to care about runners and making runners as best as they can be.
And, uh, this next clip is fantastic. This is him talking about he's in a passion, the source of his energy. So let's have a listen now to Phil Knight. Twenty-five words or less a shoe dog is somebody that really loves shoes. And, uh, that was me that, uh, that I was a runner. Uh, there's no such thing as a ball in the mile that all you really care about it, the shoes.
And, uh, so that became important to me. And it's been with me ever since. Yeah. He have the definition of a shoe dog. He is the shoe dog. Right. And it's quite interesting that I don't know. If you think about all the shows we've had. Chad, have you heard any founder with this much strong, purposeful clarity about their personal vision, such fire in the belly?
I'm having to think here. I mean, bayzos and Ilan are a little bit more thinkers, you know, Branson, he's fairly passionate, but not this degree, you know, Fred Smith is quite cerebral. Um, I think bill Belichick is the closest maybe. Yeah. And yes, partly because of, of the athletic angle, but that fierceness and competitiveness I think is shared between them.
Yeah. Good point. Yeah. Bella check would be the one that's actually a really good point. So, so we've got somebody who is. Competitive somebody who just loves running and running shoes. I mean, when you think about it, in retrospect, of course you can start to see why, why Nike was so successful. It's very good reminders for us about some of the prerequisites.
It takes from a leader to lead a company and to do great things. Don't you think? I mean, It's this idea of being competitive and loving what you do. I mean, he is a real energy bolt. Phil Knight. Yeah. Yeah. And I think he I'm sure learned along the way as an athlete learned how to. You know, see and identify the better coaches and mentors for himself.
And that's how the company picked up, you know, great young athletes like Michael Jordan. And he talks about how one of his biggest talents is, is, is picking the right people. So here's Phil on choosing the right people. And the skillset that you brought to it, what would you say the skill set was that you brought was a great intellect, great drive, great leadership.
What would you say all of that? All of that in equal and equal amounts? I, I, if there's one thing it's been, uh, I've been. Pretty good at evaluating people. And, uh, and that was one of the things that I wanted to get through. And I hope it did come through in the book was how valuable those early, uh, uh, you know, partners were the kind of my fellow employees, my teammates, uh, they were, uh, they were terrific.
Knowing people, man, that is such a big part of leadership and he calls them teammates. Yeah. Part, which I think is interesting. You can't take the sportsmen, anything in Kenya. Nope. Nope. You can't he's he's, he's just living it. I, you know, th the thing about, um, you know, our, our habit in society is to think that it's all about, and we saw this when we discussed Steve jobs, uh, when we did Jonathan I've, you know, people often think there's, there's one single founder.
Who's like Superman, who does it all, but you all ways find a team. A loyal team, a capable team that helps them, that fills in some of the weak spots that challenges them ask tough questions, but believes in their vision and mission above all else. And I think. You know, he's a good person, picker, you know, he's a talent picker because to think that he's been now for many years, chairman Ameritas and my park has been CEO for, for many years now.
Uh, and the company still continues to deliver great results. Even despite the fact that retail is changing a lot, particularly in North America. So yes, some of their North American sales have been weaker than usual. But when I say that they have great things happening outside of that and every brand and in particular under armor got slammed in the last few years.
When was it? Uh, sports authority went bankrupt and chat in the U S that really knocked the sports retail sector. Yeah. One of the larger ones. Yeah. And so what you've seen is that that landscape is in full change yet. They still deliver. The business. So he's obviously created a great group of people because I mean, he's, he is as, as, as the title would suggest he's a chairman on the outside, you kind of retired if you will.
Um, and so, you know, the team's getting the job done because it would have come off the rails by now. So that's the ultimate proof that, you know, picking talent is key. The big question in my mind, Chad, is how do we. Distill from that. What are some of the things we can do to, to pick. Good people around us.
Cause it's, it really is. When you think about all the gray, you know, every Batman needs a Robin, right. So how do we go picking great talent? That's like the $64,000 question. I like, I like thinking of it as, as a team. Um, I know that's not the right analogy in every case, but I think it can be very useful in that.
Oh, I can't remember. I love is it in these clips or not? Where he's talking about like, I am. I might actually be getting ahead into this next clip, you know, putting two tens. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I, I think it's, I think it's just finding the best people that can work well together. We'll get you farther than picking just the best people.
And I think that's, you know, if we look at yeah, yeah. All of the sports teams that just have superstars and have not achieved greatness, it's because there's, there's not that chemistry and there's not the right motivations is not the right coach, et cetera. And so I think, um, without going too far in the deep end of like easing the sports analogy for building teams, I do think that there is some value in that there is.
And the thing about. When you think about whether it's creating a company or whether you already have a, a larger organization. The key is, if you think about it, in terms of a sports team, everyone's got a position to play. So you need to, you know, the guys that are good in offense at different to guys that are good in defense, you know, people who play particular roles in certain sports, you need to cast for them appropriately.
So. I think that's about building a good team. Some of the things that come to my mind about talent is I do think you're right about the team thing. I am very strong on the belief it's business is not about being a family. It's about being a team because in the end, in a team, if you don't perform and you've been given all the support and you still can't perform, then you need to go because the fit is not right.
That doesn't happen in a family, right. Families forever. So that's why I think team is much stronger than the family analogy. I do think that getting people playing in the right position, just to continue this sports analogy for a moment, don't you think that a lot of good people end up doing poorly just because they're playing in that.
Brackets here, wrong position. Haven't you seen that Chad, where people are like, Oh, you know, they're good, but they're just not clicking at the moment. Yeah. And they could also just be on the wrong team as well. Like just surrounded by. Not that the people are wrong. They're just not the right ones to bring out the best in them.
Yeah. You know? Yeah. But I think, I think those there's kind of like the outside and then from the inside as well. Yeah. I also think a huge lesson that I've learned is that often people are picking, uh, employees, um, Team members based on skills and that they don't place enough emphasis on screening and matching to people on behaviors.
Um, for me, the classic concept here is the smartest guy in the room could be an absolute. Idiot and terrible with people. And it doesn't really matter anymore if he's the smartest guy, because he upsets everybody and offends everybody. And no one wants to listen to him and he creates really bad momentum within the team.
So I often think where people go wrong with selecting a team members in a company is that they're looking at the CV. They're looking at the, the ticking, the boxes on skills and experience, which sure it's important, but in the end, are they collaborative? Are they, uh, autonomous? Are they proactive? Do they feel responsibility?
Do they, are they curious? Do they contribute? Do they collaborate? Like there's so much more than just having a piece of paper. Yeah, Tony, Shay of Zappos kind of famously created this system where all new hires, you know, they only get hired for this very short period of time. And at first, and they work in customer service.
So everyone that enters the company goes through this kind of customer service training. And then Zappos will actually, I don't know if they still do it to this day, but they would offer you like, you can quit and we'll pay you. Yes, that's true. And they'll pay you more. If you leave early, if you leave within the first month, you actually get a, a bigger bonus than if you leave after two months, because they, like, if this isn't working, like let's just, let's just move on.
Right. And that inspired many more companies to have new hires spend their first few weeks, or even first couple of months in the customer service department, whether you're an engineer or a manager or. And the marketing department, whatever, they kind of use that as a trial period. And so I think for me, we've got sports analogies on the brain.
It's like you, do you do the scrimmage first, right before you kind of do the, the real, the real match. So I think, um, Uh, while I don't run a company of 75,000 plus employees, when I am collaborating or are looking for new collaborators, I love to start with these kinds of smaller pilot projects to determine.
You know, not only do they have the skills, but yeah. Can you work with them? Are they not a jerk? All of those sorts of things that make all the difference? I want to emphasize that last point. I really agree that pilot projects or, um, what my, my business partner, Ian Yacob always says, let's prototype this relationship.
And, um, I look back in all of the collaborations I've done in my career and. When I have done things with people that I've had some experience collaborating with and working with, they have always gone much better than the ones where I just jumped in the deep end and said, yeah, let's do it. And I've never done anything with them.
So if you look back in your life and your career, Ted, can you see that pattern? People that you've actually, you know, me, Mike, you know him, I know, I know exactly where you're going with this, but yeah, I think that learning that I, that I was just speaking about it, you know, it, it, it comes from, um, it comes from experience, um, on my part.
And so, yeah, I would, I would encourage everyone to see. How they could, it could be any kind of new initiative or new team or a new project or new company, any, any sorts of those things? Yes. Something for a month. I reckon just work on a little project, even if it's after hours, do it for a month and have regular interaction.
Do they listen? Do they keep to the promises they make? Do they deliver good quality work? Do they ask questions when they don't understand? It's like simple stuff that will be exposed in no time at all. Won't it. Yeah, well, it's, it's funny. I, I came across something the other day where this person that's hired, you know, hundreds, if not several thousand people said that it, it took him kind of having face to face personal interactions with over a hundred people to find the one person that was right.
Wow. I mean, your odds are you're, you know, you're, you, you may do better or worse than that, but that's. Goes a lot to show like you don't want to just start something with the kind of first available options all the time. Exactly. Don't rush things. Take your time. Let things take their natural path. Gosh, there's so much wisdom to apply to peaking.
The right people working with the right people, but we have not finished yet because we we're very lucky to have one more amazing clip just to set the context here. I mean, this, you could actually probably do a whole show around this, this next clip because he's giving, you know, no, this sort of valedictory kind of speech.
And he gets, uh, Phil gets on a row and delivers some of the most timely wisdom from his entire career. So we thought. This would be the most appropriate way doing the show. Didn't we, Chad? Yeah. So, uh, here's, I don't know, like a dozen of, uh, moments of insane pens and pencils ready because you got a lot to write down on this next clip and there are a couple other lessons.
Two nines working together will be two tens working for their own careers, every time ability and desire. Most always Trump. Money and power. If you can't get financing, don't be afraid to go. 7,000 miles from home. Government is part of business. Any business. There is such a thing as managing creativity and dare to take chances less.
You leave your talent buried in the ground and where there is no struggle. There can be no art.
No struggle. No. You know, take your chances. Those, those that have to be the, some of the most reoccurring themes, uh, that speaks so much to taking a moonshot for going out there and trying to create something. And that's 10 times better than anything else. Right? Chad. Yeah. I heard so many of our previous subjects in all of those.
Like there's some lady Gaga in that like struggle. Um, yeah, not a dozen, but there, there, there were seven pieces of it. Yeah. Right there in, uh, in that last clip, I got ahead of myself earlier talking about the two, two tens versus two nines. Um, but I think that's really effective. You know, in relates to what we were talking about with regards to teamwork and building teams.
Yeah. It's it's for me, you know, no matter how much you're trying to create the new waffle shoe or the new flynet shoe, um, the, the thing that gets it done will always be teamwork and collaboration and people working together. And it really doesn't matter where your startup is focused on or what amazing things your large fortune 500 company does.
It really will always come down to culture and the way people work together, the way they treat each other and for all of the founders and CEOs that are listening to our show, that starts. With you. Yeah. I heard a little bit of Tim O'Reilly when he talks about do something that matters, you know, less your, your people will, will suffer and leave.
Um, yeah. Thanks. Uh, thanks for finding that clip, Micah. I really enjoyed it. That was a, that was a bit of a knockout punch right at the end of the round. Um, well, I mean, gosh, what have we learned here? We've learned here that it is, it's really a product and marketing story together that we know that there's this highly compassion, highly compassionate, highly competitive.
Shall I say, gosh, what a slip that is highly competitive guy who just loves running. And he is after 52 years still up for the good fight and this eye for picking talent and bringing people together is really at the heart of what's created the waffle shoe, the wool shoe. He knows what's to come. What for you?
Chad was the big aha. Going through the journey of Phil Knight from Nike. Um, I, I really like the product is your best marketing assets. Yeah. You and I have played or are playing, you know, in this kind of marketing communications product world. And I think that's a really interesting idea that. You know, it's kind of like a mantra that we could mull over for, for, for years, probably instill not to fully kind of peel all the layers away, but it's a, it's a fascinating concept that I think I can kind of use that to look at other companies, other brands and see if they're doing that right.
Or well, or, or, or not. Yeah. The test that comes from that is almost if you're making your first launch video and the product's not at the heart of it, then. Then what? Right. So I think you can't, you can't tell the stories that Nike do. If you don't have the product to back it up, not for 52 years. Right.
It's just not possible. Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise it's yeah. Otherwise it falls too much into the hype category or. Exactly. Yeah. And I think, I mean, certainly Nike has fallen short, but over the long run, I mean their track record over 50 plus years is pretty darn good. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Well, there you go. And Nike show is in the backfill Phil Knight.
We have decoded you, uh, many gifts there. You can catch all of the notes, uh, on our very famous moonshots.io. Uh, you'll get all our thoughts there and links and connections to all our social stuff. And you can get newsletters. So you get pinged every time we have a new show out, so there's plenty there, but we should now Cass our eyes to the horizon.
Where does, uh, where do we find ourselves going for our next episode? A bit of a, another super brand, um, more in the, in the, in the Oprah Winfrey category than the Nike running shoe category. Chad, what, what inspiration has come to us for our next show? I'm not sure if it's the largest kind of personal brand or not, but certainly one of the largest, and that would be Martha Stewart.
Yeah. Now, interesting character. She's had the biggest of ups, the biggest of downs, and she's returned fighting and still strong and a completely different Headspace. I mean, it's all about. In the home in the kitchen, cooking healthy, vibrant is celebratory. It's bringing people together. It's a really, the Martha Stewart brand is a very interesting brand and it's a huge media empire.
Yeah. And a relief cause we had, we had put her on the list way back when like in the first 10, but we kind of tabled her and I think she's going to be a really fascinating followup to Nike because I think that she knows and is obsessed with her customers in the same way that Phil and everyone at Nike is.
Um, for sure. I'm I'm very interested to kind of see the parallels there, but yeah, you're right. It's, it's grown much more into kind of a media and a retail product. Kind of conjoined business in the way that like, I want to get too far into it. Cause what we'll be talking about it on the next show, but it's interesting.
Nike is kind of a fusion of the, of the advertising, marketing and product. And Martha's more kind of content product. It's a subtle distinction, but a fascinating one that I can't wait to dive into. And following that, uh, we should give a teaser. We are going to do a triple header. We are going to do three executives from Apple.
We've already done Jonathan ive, which was great as part of our design series. But we, again, I go back to back Angela Ahrendts former CEO of Burberry now head of retail at Apple, Steve Wasniak co-founder of Apple and absolute character. And of course, The one show that we've put off for 35 shows is perhaps the greatest product designer and innovator of our time.
Maybe of all time. Steve jobs. I cannot wait. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. So lots to think about there. We have to do something really special for that show. I don't know. Balloons celebration. I don't know. Um, but that's super, it's super exciting. Just a reminder to everyone to get everything off. Uh, moonshots.io.
Um, Pick it all up. Thank you for the iTunes reviews, please go out and give us more of those. We love the styles. We have a preference for five stars. What else do we need to remind everyone to do Chad, just thank you listeners for, for listening to Mike and myself, I would encourage all of you to pick your favorite episode and share it with a friend.
That's how we will get more listeners. Um, And, you know, we, we enjoy all of your feedback on both the subject matter, the insights. And, you know, we want to know more from you about what you'd like to hear about. Yeah, absolutely. So I think that gets us to a wrap. I want to thank you, Chad. It was a blast doing Nike.
I cannot wait to get into Martha. What a, what a great personal brand, uh, she's built. So can't wait to do it. So thank you, mate. I hope you've enjoyed it from Brooklyn. I have an, I hope the rest of your day in Sydney is as a good one way. Yeah. It'll, it'll be fabulous. No doubt. There's not a cloud in the sky and it's nice and warm even though it's the fall.
So I cannot complain. So, uh, Chad, thank you. Thank you to all of our listeners. We've had a great time. Going into the world of Nike. It's been an absolute, a riot to, to get into the world of film night and just to admire the work he's done and learn a little bit from him on how he created so much innovation and did it with such strong resilience and tenacity.
So thank you to you all. That's a wrap for the moonshots podcast. See you next time.
Okay.