Yvon Chouinard
episode 30
The Moonshots Podcast takes a stroll down Madison Avenue to look at some of the most innovative brands on the planet. We start this series with contrarian approach of Yvon Chouinard the founder of Patagonia.
Join us as we reflect on product innovation and sustainable business growth from a reluctant business man - Yvon Chouinard.
SHOW outline
A-BLOCK - ORIGINS
Entrepreneurs are like Juvenile Delinquents
First Product - Solving Problems
Oh No! I’m a Businessman
Origin of Patagonia Brand
B-BLOCK - PURPOSE
Dual Mission - Great Product/Do Little Harm
Cradle-to-Cradle Polyester
Natural, Sustainable Business Growth
C-BLOCK - PHILOSOPHY & PEOPLE
Hire Responsible, Let them Surf
Autonomy as a Management Style
Impact of Yvon
TRANSCRIPT
Hello, and welcome. Welcome to the moonshots podcast. It's an very special episode, 30. I'm your co-host Mike Parsons. And as always, I'm joined by the man himself, Mr. Chad Owen. Hey Mike. So for episode 30, we are very excited to bring on yet another illustrious guest, Patrick Hanlon. So, uh, why don't you introduce Patrick to all of us, Mike?
Well, Patrick is somebody that I've known for many, many years. He is a prolific author. Um, his signature piece, um, one might say. Is, uh, the book primal branding, please check your Amazon stores for the book. And he has produced. Numerous, uh, iconic, uh, advertising campaigns. He's worked with brands like Levi's and Pepsi and well, you name it.
He's worked with them and he's all about how you create this spirit of community. That is story and narrative driven and how have positive, positive impact on the world. It's my pleasure, Patrick, to welcome you on the show. Hello. Hey, it's good to be here. Thanks for having me. You're so very welcome. And when we, when we chose to have you on the show, we have to give our listeners a bit of an inside tip.
It was because we have one of, probably the greatest living brands by one of the greatest. Entrepreneurs. So we are very pumped to unleash your thinking onto, uh, what has to be one of the greatest brands. But I think Chad, we should stop the suspense. Who are we going to dive into this show? Yvon Chouinard of Patagonia and he is pretty amazing.
And then I, I must say when I did the research for the show, he went from pretty amazing to right up there. I mean, I, I gathered these clips and research and found myself wanting to work for Patagonia. Chad, what do you think? I mean, what makes Patagonia and the work from Yvon? Chouinard's so special. Well, I don't want to give everything away before we, uh, get to the clips here, but I'll just say I'm, I'm always thrilled and excited to kind of veer off the technology innovation path and find someone like Yvonne at a, at a company like Patagonia.
But, um, Patrick, I'm, I'm curious from you, what has been most surprising or interesting to you about Patagonia in the last few years, or even just as, maybe you've watched it over the past 40 years. Well, I just wanted to say first that I've listened to a lot of the shows. Not all of them grant you, but this is I'm so glad, but you brought me into this one because I'm a, I'm a fan, I'm a Patagonia fan.
I might even be part of the tribe. I don't climb don't, um, necessarily camp that much anymore, but I sure fall into the aesthetic and the, um, And the belief system. Definitely. So what out, what I thought was outstanding. I hadn't read the book, let my people go surfing, which is a primmer for anyone who wants to look at any purpose driven brand.
And it fell out of that for me, I think was how totally. When we talk about being authentic, we talk about being organic. We talk about all of these being genuine and all of these things. And here was a guy who didn't really want to become a businessman or entrepreneur. It just kind of fell into his lap.
He was just making better things. He was forging his own chucks and protons and realized that. In the course of climbing these mountains, they were also destroying them by going up the same routes over and over again. And so rather than hammering these things into the side of the mountain, they invented new ways and clean climbing what they called and, and it's kinda, that's kind of been the model ever since perhaps one of the biggest things he has to offer, uh, in terms of learning is.
You said it he's authentic. This guy built products in a way he thought was best for him, for the customer, for the employee. And. I think our listeners are going to find it. He is very folksy street shooting, kind of a guy. He doesn't have all that elaborateness you might find from a Silicon Valley exec, but you're so right.
I mean, this guy, he is Chad, this guy's the real deal. Yeah. I mean, he went from dirt bag to founding and running a billion dollar company with over 2,500 employees. Um, and we've got a great, uh, introduction. Uh, from a Patagonia employee, just to give you the listeners a sense of, of, you know, how far the company's come and what they're doing today.
So here's a, here's a primer on Patagonia from one of their own. Patagonia is based in Ventura, California, mainly because it was a great surf break. There it is right now, a little less than a billion dollars. 2,500 employees across the world had to go in is founded 40 years ago by a French Canadian climber Yvon Chouinard from the beginning, avant set out to create an
So we want to create a place where people could make money and do the things they wanted to do and live full lives. We hire people at Patagonia, whether it's a corporate. Office Spooner, retail stores who are interested in and love the spaces that they live. We look for a passion for caring about the environment, and if we're doing things that forced the store manager to be in the back room all the time or our employees, you know, to only be on the floor behind the cash wrap, then we're doing something that is.
Antipathetic to the culture and the purpose and why we're here in the first place culturally matters. And you know, when it matters most when, and you stick to it in the great times and the really challenging times. And so when I look at the history of Patagonia, obviously right now, a very good time, but the decisions that we make, even in the bad times, cause there were bad times with Patagonia 2008.
It's kind of, not a great time for Patagonia, a lot of companies, but it didn't cut healthcare. We didn't cut. On-site childcare. We didn't cut training and development. That's the test of true culture is when the decisions you make are consistent, are there businesses really, really good or really, really challenging?
And I think that's why our employees stick with us just ridiculously. Low rates of turnover. An element of the Patagonia culture is this irreverent unconventional approach. So if, if everyone is, is turning right, how to Gonia is definitely the company that will turn left from an unconventional approach to the democratization of work.
Hmm. It's like everyone's turning right. And, uh, uh, they'll take left. What, what you heard there was for me, a very, uh, timely reminder on having purpose is the start of making life. Very clear as a business person, because you just ask yourself, does this action or does, what is the decision to make. That best reflects our purpose and we can hear how contrarion they are.
They didn't cut all of those extra value add services, which is how some companies would look at them. They maintain them during tough times. And. To me, this is a very powerful lesson in going out into the world to try and achieve a greater good and to have positive impact. And you can see that their success, which is so important to recognize they're in the world of fast fashion.
Where, you know, uh, the likes of H and M and Zara pride themselves on turning product into store in less than two weeks, these guys are taking their time to build timeless products. And we're going to hit so much in the show about how they were, how they created the company, how they came up with these incredibly powerful set of ideas that, that fuel, uh, the culture of the company.
And we're going to hear about. Some of their philosophies and approaches and how they just think about people as a whole. And it's, it's very important stuff. And it's very good that we're doing this because we've not had someone so strong on culture and doing well by doing good. I think this is a big fuel injection for the cultural barometer within organizations.
Chad, I think this one, this one's again, it'd be unique indeed. Yeah, I'm excited. And don't forget, we're gonna ask Patrick all about let my people go surfing the, uh, book that Yvonne wrote a while ago. Patrick. I'm I'm curious as a, as we get into the show, what are some things that I'm looking to learn from Yvonne as we unpack some of these clips?
Well, I think that Mike has steered us toward one, which is the whole reference station, em, and the instant fashion thing, fast fashion, and how Patagonia is not their clothing company, but they're not really a fashion company. It's a matter of fact in their mission and values. The concern over transitory fashion trends is specifically not a corporate value.
So they're not going from the lack of would be at fashion week. So true. You'll never find them there because they'll probably be a bit too busy catching waves out the front of their office. So exactly so having values, but then is one thing, but sticking to them through. The dark times is another thing.
Yeah. And we see in the up and down of corporate culture, startup life, we've all been presented with situations where you just doing a double-take and going, what? And when someone does something that's so contrarian to the values, they might espouse. This is where, you know, I think the cost is, is died about good companies, maybe companies that are going to fail.
And it's definitely the, the moment of truth to decide great companies. Now we've heard so much about how Concerta and they are. How, how they've got this incredible courage to do things. And a lot of this stems from Yvon Chouinard, the founder, and he has this, contrarion feel this courageous style about him.
This essence is it's more than stalling. He has this essence and this first clip we're going to play to you is part of a whole series. We've got about how the company came about and the sort of. Mentality and approach it took from him. So let's now have a listen to his thoughts on what the essence of being an entrepreneur is and how it might be not what you expect.
So here's Yvon Chouinard. You know, one of my favorite quotes about entrepreneurs is if, if you want to understand the entrepreneurs study the juvenile delinquent, cause you know, they're saying, you know, this sucks.
And I'm going to do it my own way. I love that clip because it, it goes back to his heritage as a climber. He was a self-professed dirt bag of the sixties and seventies. And it's just fascinating to me how. He stumbled into what would become Patagonia. So as before, he's, he's kind of, he's saying, you know, we're like juvenile delinquents saying, Oh, this sucks.
So we're just going to do it our own way. And I, I've never heard, you know, entrepreneur described in that way. But, uh, I, I love, I love that, that metaphor. He he's got that thing. He's, he's almost a bit brands and ask, you know, a bit contrarian. Uh, counter-culture bringing that into the entrepreneurial world PA I'm interested to know from you, when you think about this sort of contrarian approach.
Do you see this a lot in successful founders and leaders within organizations? Is this a characteristic that when you, when you're writing about creating a movement, do you think this plays a role in how he's a mass, such a huge community of brand lovers? Well, I think that in this case, the, yes, the quick answer is yes.
And in the beginning, the people that had worked at Patagonia, they only worked there long enough to. Uh, according to Yvonne, anyway, they worked there long enough to make enough money to go off on another trip to Chile and go surfing or go mountain climbing in the Alps, and then they'd come back and drift back.
So it was very hard to keep people, um, dedicated, committed, I guess, committed is probably the right word. Right. And so when you have the band of renegades like that, It's kind of hard to run a business, but B yes. I think everything kind of flows out of that. And of course you have all the, you know, Apple started in the garage.
Hawaiian Tropic started in, uh, in a garage also with, uh, Ron rice, uh, stirring the goop. You know, with the shovel. So yeah, so it is not everyone went out for investor funding, funding, seed funding, and everything. And Patagonia actually had a problem getting loans. Yeah. The, the interesting juxtaposition or what might not be a natural bedfellow to this Renegade.
I love that Pat, this Renegade characteristic is that they're actually product obsessed. So just because they're free spirited doesn't mean that they don't have the discipline to knuckle down and design great products. And we all know that solving a problem is at the essence of entrepreneurship and your product has to be obsessed with solving problems of your customers.
So what's very nice is they might be renegades. They might be contrarians, but they have enormous aptitude to delve into the problem that their customers have. The great news there. They happen to be their own customers because they're all outdoors people, which I think is another pattern that we can decode in their success.
But now let's have a listen to Yvonne talking about how we can get into problem solving and how, where the products really come from. So let's have a listen to this. Well, I, I never wanted to be a businessman. I was a craftsman and I was a climber. And just every time I'd go into the mountains, I'd have ideas on how to make the gear better.
The gear was pretty crude in those days. It was all made in Europe. And, uh, so I, I just got myself a forge and an anvil and a book on blacksmithing and I taught myself how to blacksmith and. And that led to making these P tons and, and, uh, and eventually ice axes and crampons and all the gear for mountain climbing and, uh, and never did it thinking that it was a business.
It was a, at first it was just making the stuff for myself and friends and done friends of friends and pretty soon, um, Making two of these P tons an hour and selling them for a dollar and a half each. Well, not too, not too profitable. Right. Yeah. I, I love how he, his life was dependent upon the product that he was making.
So if he wasn't already obsessed enough with it here, he's creating and innovating on and iterating on this product that he's using to hang from El Capitan and other mountains that he's climbing. And it was really out of necessity. For him. And he kind of jokes at the end, you know, that he was selling them for not much money.
And it just, you know, it started out of, you know, he had his own anvil and forge, um, and taught himself. I mean, he just gets in there and says, Oh, I just taught myself to be a blacksmith. I mean, sounds easy to say, but like, I wouldn't even know where to start. And just the idea you're dealing with all that.
Fire and iron and I mean, this is a world away for me. Maybe my digital world is just not analog enough, but, but that just seems like, wow. And he seems so matter of fact about it, doesn't he? Yeah. And I'm curious, Patrick, like if, you know, I mean, you've mentioned Hawaiian Tropic, I'm curious if you know of any other kind of founding stories that they kind of started this messily, you know, if you will.
Sure. Almost all of them. Uh, Henry Ford making the, his automobiles. Yeah, the, the Ford story is Epic, but, but Chad, I will take you back to one of our shows when Virgin airlines started, it was on the back of a Smeed choke. Bored with Richard Branson saying, I need to get to this Island. I'll charter a plane, 25 bucks, a flight from Island to Island.
I mean, solving a problem, taking the initiative, not being, you know, in your head and scared of failure. They just jump right in and they learn it. They, they pick up the tools and go for it. Yeah. And he, he didn't stop. You know, he started with these, these climbing P tons, but soon branched out into essentially everything that he used as a climber and as an outdoors person, all the way to pants and shorts, this really cool kind of fuzzy wool, like fabric that, but it was synthetic so that when you got it wet, you know, it would dry quickly instead of, you know, wearing wool in it, staying wet for weeks on end.
Uh, You know, essentially just creating the products out of necessity, as opposed to looking and seeing what's popular on trend and doing that. Oh yeah, totally. And it's so great. Um, you know, he just took the initiative, started making things for himself and before he knew it, he's a product designer and what's great about the next clip fast forward a few years and he wakes up.
And has this realization, Oh my gosh, I'm a businessman, which was certainly something that he'd never set out to do. In fact, you know, he talks often and about business, you know, no one grows up wanting to be a businessman because you know, they're basically all versions of, of Gordon Gekko. So this next clip is fantastic because this is what his reflections upon.
Him, uh, as a, as a businessman, but I, but I wanted to give Pat this opportunity to reflect on just the relationship, uh, that, you know, building products. And then before, you know, it turning into a businessman, when you, when you hear him talking about creating these products and, and you know, the journey, he's only what comes to your mind path.
Well, he really glances over something that's really important. I think he talks about it. He just made a slight mention of the products. Weren't very good. Back then the pro products really sucked back then. I mean, there, there wasn't the clothing. He talks about. One of the things they talk about in the book, given the Brook book review away, but as we go, but the okay about, uh, cutting off a pair of chinos and wearing a white shirt.
Button-down shirt that they would pick up out of, uh, you know, sort of the salvation army or someplace. So they'd get a cheap and didn't care if they roughed it up, but that's the kind of stuff. Whereas they've always tried to build quality products and, uh, in order to make corduroy, he spotted some quarter Roy over in Scotland or someplace the factory had closed.
And they had to call seven retired gentlemen away from the pub to start the machine up again. And the, the, these old craftsman warranty him, you know, at once the blades on this machine go doll, we'll never be able to use it again because we don't have the wherewithal to sharpen the blades anymore. And luckily the machine lasted seven more years, but that kind of.
Dedication and just, um, sort of brilliant nonchalant stored who cares. We'll just make it a mini way as long as we can. Right. And essentially waiting for the customers to like beat down his door to make the thing. Yeah. Quality, quality first and customers came later. Whereas today of course, we always want to ask the customer and get user studies and yeah, but he had another story.
Like he. He found this great rugby shirt, which if you've ever played rugby and worn a Jersey, and it's this really nice thick material, and it's got a good color and all of that, and it was perfect for the climbers so that they didn't get rope burns and you know, their shirts weren't torn to shreds that replaced the white button-down.
Yeah. Yeah. But he, I think he had to, you know, All of his friends and family were saying like, we, we need these. And so he had to hunt down, you know, the manufacturer of these shirts to go and do it. So like he never, he never set out to like create this great outdoors and apparel company. And then this, this clip that Mike was alluding to is I think a perfect summation of that.
And I couldn't help, but laughing when we heard it. So here's just, here's a Vaughn kind of owning up to his, uh, you know, fateful realization that, oops, uh, he's a businessman now. I kind of backdoored becoming a business town. Cause this is, this is in the sixties and, you know, businessmen were all grease balls in the sixties there, you know, this is a counterculture that we were in and we didn't respect business.
In fact, they were the, they were the enemy. And so, so, uh, uh, you know, one day, uh, later on, I. Kind of woke up and discovered, Oh my God, I am a businessman. And that's when I decided I better find out what I'm doing. And, um, started reading a lot of books on, on business and basically trying to create a business that we wanted to come to work in all of us, you know?
I mean, it wasn't just me, but all of us were all dirt bags. Yeah. What a, what a powerful clip, because the essence of that is when he had the realization, he didn't just dwell in it. He put himself to work and started reading books and studying what it meant to be a businessman. And this is exactly what he does with everything.
You will remember that when he talked about building product, he. Just went out and learn how to be a blacksmith. He went and read books. This is constantly what he does. And this is by far the most powerful theme of all the successful innovators and entrepreneurs is they are life long learners. And what's important here is.
It all comes off the back. His entrepreneurship comes off the back about what we heard was this to him, which seems quite natural is this obsession with great product, this obsession with solving problems. And I think this is one of the biggest lessons we can take from him. It doesn't matter whether you're high tech, low tech, whether you're digital analog, it really matters that you go out in the world and you solve problems.
And that we are learning constantly that entrepreneurship is a means for entrepreneurs to achieve their mission. So the mission is not to be an entrepreneur itself. The mission is to see positive impact in the world. And we seen that time and time again, haven't we chat? Yeah. And I think where we've seen it go wrong is where the entrepreneur is in it for the wrong reason.
And I don't want to name names, but I'm sure we can all think of, of, of either someone in our own experience or out there kind of in the news and the media that kind of got that equation backwards. And Navon just embodies that. Mission and purpose first product, first philosophy. So yeah, I wanted to ask you about this idea of learning.
Um, you're an author, you've written several books. You write for some very prestigious, uh, magazines and so forth. What's your practice of learning? How do you keep yourself abreast and how do you keep growing and where does that start for you? Oh, that's such a hard question to answer with all the splintered channels and everything that we have.
The, um, I have several feeds that I go to every day and then I read constantly. I read more than I listen. Um, one of my daughters. It was constantly on iTunes and so forth, plus reading or listening to books rather than reading them. I think there's something to reading things still. So they'll have some analog in me.
Good on reading. Reading is a beautiful thing and surely the, the practice of writing, uh, the fact that, you know, you have to, uh, bring an idea and put pen to paper. That must be a big part of your learning because ideas just get better when you're right. Don't they. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. I feel that way.
Yeah. For me, it's, it's the pressure to write and to get your ideas clear as possible. And invariably, it makes my. What's in my mind, even sharper one time committing it to paper. It's it's almost, I don't know. There's, there's some, you know, growth of my membranes, you know, when I'm riding it just, it clarifies, solidifies the idea.
It doesn't it, you know, I didn't realize this until I was. Pretty old, but the I'm seeing something, I'm a visual person. So I need to see something on paper, I guess. So now we've got this, this lens that we're looking at, Yvon Chouinard, founder of Patagonia through, we know that he's very concerned. He's a Renegade.
As Patrick said, we know that, uh, it all started with making better climbing products for himself. And before he knew it, he was a businessman, but everything goes next level. There was a point in time where it was dual di for Patagonia, it was do or die for the entire company. And this was a classic tipping point in their history.
And it was either going to go good or it was going to get very bad for them. And what we have here is him reflecting on this moment. And I just want to give a heads up to all the listeners, make sure you tune into this following clip, because there is so much inside of this because not only is it about.
Learning and coming together, but it is about resilience and about turning adversity into opportunity. So let's have a listen to Yvon Chouinard, founder of Patagonia on where the true origin, the essence of the Patagonia brand, where it came from when and how well, uh, uh, you know, I've been on a lot of different expeditions and trips, but, uh, the longer they are, the more you get something out of them.
And, uh, this was a six month trip. And so we left Ventura, California with an old van. This was Doug Tompkins and myself and, and uh, some other folks. And we loaded the van up with surf boards and skis and climbing equipment bought an old, um, Bolex 16 millimeter camera. And took off surfing all the way down to Lima, went to Chile and climbed, volcanoes and skied down them.
That's where I learned to ski. Um, so are the Andes and went over to and climb a Fitzroy, a real famous mountain that had been only climbed twice. And we did a new route on it and we made a film on the whole thing and. And that's when I fell in love with that country, the Southern end of South America called Patagonia.
And, uh, yeah, it's it affected Doug Tompkins a lot and myself and, uh, and that's why I named, uh, my clothing company Patagonia, because it, I wanted to make clothing for those kinds of conditions, you know, like Cape horn and. Wild mountains and wild weather and, and I've uh, yeah, so that was a big effect.
That was 1968. And it was, it was a wild trip. I mean, you know, you wake up sometimes sleeping on the ground in Guatemala with guns at your head. Hell a lot of ventures. He makes it sound so simple. And, you know, I, I think, uh, it's kind of hard for me to believe that. Yeah, that what we now know is Patagonia.
You know, it was just kind of discovered on a surf trip in a van down town, the Western coast of North and South America. Yeah. There's a lot of intensity there, but there's also a lot of humility. Isn't there actually. Yeah. That's a good, good thought about. Yvon Chouinard. He has, he reminds me a bit of, um, Fred Smith from FedEx.
You know, he's thoughtful, he's pragmatic, but at never at any sense, do you feel ego when they talk? You'll notice, he's often thinking about, you know, he's always quick to credit others. He's quick to. Attribute things to others. And it almost the, the thing you have to be careful with Yvonne is like, it all feels so easy because I think he asked big questions and he's looking for the essence of things.
And I think we have to remind ourselves it doesn't come as easy to all of us as it seems to, to Yvonne. But I, I think that, but he's keeping it simple. I think it's coming across as very easy because he has kept it. So. Simple. And, you know, after we, uh, after we talk about the book, let my people go surfing.
Well, I think we'll get into the purpose and the dual mission that Yvonne created for the company that he's stuck with for 40 years. And I think that's why he's kind of there's this. Easy confidence that comes through. I think that's where it really comes from is the simplicity of what he's chosen to do.
Yeah. Without a doubt in this, this modern world of notifications with artificial intelligence and machine learning. It is essential to keep it simple. And I, and I love how contrarian he is in that. And I think that we've already had such a gift in understanding the purpose of the Renegade within him that has, that has created a billion dollar brand.
It's created a venture company. It's created a food company. That is all geared to, to not only leaving the world as it was, but to actually to leave it better than how he found it. And already that is such a noble and powerful cause, but it's helped him also build a great brand. And part of what he's been trying to do in sharing his story is to inspire others, to go do it as well.
He's really, he only makes himself so accessible in order to provide some sort of roadmap for others. And I think at the very pinnacle of that roadmap, Was his book. So, um, he, he, uh, he pinned together, this, this book, let my people go surfing. And without a doubt, it's, it's a, it's such a well-reviewed and admired book.
It's subtitle is the education of a reluctant businessman, but I know that we will have anything, but a reluctant, uh, set of thoughts from Patrick on the book, Patrick. You read the book. Uh, you've heard some of the stories and, and the values that he's brought to life in the book, listening, uh, to him and, and reading this book.
How would you position this book? You know, for anyone who wants to go and learn how to be an entrepreneur and innovator to go out in the world? What's, what's in the book for them. Well, I think it's a perfect example. As I said earlier, I think of being purpose-driven and, uh, but also it's very Stute in terms of persistence and being, uh, very serious, really.
And, uh, but even if it got serious, you know, work had to be enjoyable on a daily basis. There's a phrase in there that he gets to that says, uh, we all had to come to work on the balls of our feet and go up the stairs two steps at a time. I mean, that's not only persistence, but that's really the aggressive pursuit of something.
Right. And then there's another. Saying in the book that you mentioned that you wanted to keep the company in Uruk Y a R a a K. Is it spelled a falconry term? Meaning that when you're, when you're a Falcon is super alert, hungry, but not weak and ready to hunt. Hmm. So that's very intentional. How do you spell that, that, that word?
That's such an interesting idea. Yeah. Y a R a K Erik, Erik. Okay. Very cool. It's a company in Yarik, which seems to be sort of a, I don't know if that's a Zen state, but a purposeful. Yeah. State of high alert, state of high alert. One of the things that strikes me chat about him is the enormous scope of his achievement, but the simplicity and calm in which he seems to do it.
What strikes you about Yvon Chouinard's disposition and approach that. You think you could try and adopt when you're going out, making great films and telling great stories about innovators? Like what are you learning from, from his almost his style of entrepreneurship. He's uh, he's like not tolerant of any assholes.
Pardon my French, uh, working at the company, you know, I, this the phrase, let my people go surfing. I think it's an amazing book title. And it says a whole lot about his philosophy, just in that, that phrase. You know, it, if you weren't hitting the waves with him, On the off days or after work. Like he's not, you're not someone that he would want there with him.
And it goes back to what you're saying, Packers. Like they're, they're either surfing or working, you know, there's, there's kind of like, but they're totally in passioned and, and in, in the state of flow in both of those things, and I think. Seeking out and encouraging those people to, you know, to come and work with him is, is a big part of his, well, think about both of those things, they're both highly active.
Uh, you have to be totally on right. Mm, can't be off when you're shooting through the wave. And do you have to be mindful, very mindful and present. Yeah. And intentional. Yeah. Yeah. To seize the opportunities. You can't just paddle out there. Aimlessly. You have to be able to see, see the waves as they're coming in and know when to drop in and catch the wave.
Take a risk. It's a, it's a, it's a beautiful metaphor and yeah. Mean, we were, you were saying, Mike, before we hopped on the show, like listening to all of these clips, you just want to work for Avantia and work for the people at Patagonia. And I think that is a really powerful ARRA and mythos that he has, has created.
And I would, I would say what w what you guys were talking about is play hard, work hard with purpose, with purpose. Yeah. And, and that's that's so, so we're so fortunate because what we've got coming up in the show is a whole bunch of insights around this purpose. And I think there's a lot to learn for us and for our listeners on how we can create purpose.
Not only for ourselves, for our teams, our organizations, the communities in which we live. Pull us just because emotion from Patagonia is full of lessons. Um, we've got a number of insights around people and, and philosophy. Uh it's it's action packed. And now if you're listening to this and you're like, what was that crazy word they use for keeping hungry?
That and all the clips and links and references, you'll find@moonshots.io where you'll get all the goodies past shows, show notes, you name it. It's all there on moonshots.io. Ooh. So we're through, uh, we're through the origin of it. I had a Garnier, uh, Chad, where should we start with purpose? What's next. So I think we'll pick up right on the mission.
And this is something from the research that we did at sea. It seems like if I knew this from the very beginning, but this simple dual mission that he said, I think it was really what set them up for success. So here's Yvonne talking about Patagonia's dual mission. Our original mission statement was make the best quality product.
And we always felt that, uh, something is perfected not when you can't add anything more to it, but when you can't take anything away, it's kind of a difference between an old fashioned Cadillac Devis. So, but ugly that they had to put all kinds of Chrome breasts on it and stuff it on a. Compared to a Ferrari in those days, didn't have any Chrome on it.
I mean, it's just as beautiful lions. And so that's always been our philosophy, but then, you know, I thought we needed another part to our mission statement because really getting concerned about the natural world. And I was very concerned about never having a company that was unsustainable again. So we added in a second part, which says, cause no unnecessary harm.
And it doesn't say it cause no harm because you know, there's no way you can ever manufacture a product without causing harm. And according to the second law of thermodynamics entropy, you basically end up with probably more waste than then you end up with it in the final product. There's, you know, there's no such thing as sustainability.
There's a beginning and end to everything is any Buddhist. They'll tell you. Hmm. Less is more, he would be, imagine having him in the room with one of our other Dieter, he and Dieter would get along. So yeah. How data would strip everything away until there was nothing left to remove. It's really like being a sculptor.
Oh, yeah, yeah. Or working with clay, just breaking it down to its, to its essence. I love that. And I think in this, I mean, if there was one thing and working with large organizations trying to create breakthrough products, one of the things I see so much is what we commonly call the scope creep. Which is putting more and more things into a product and the false sense of satisfaction that gives product designers like, Oh yeah, we've got a button for this and a button for that.
What if you, if you actually look at the things we love, the Kindle, the iPhone, so much of what those products do is simplicity in the removal of distraction. And I think that apart from having this, this mission of building great products and doing more harm. If the essence is, you know, if you wanted a product strategy from Patagonia, it's less is more, I also think tying this greater purpose to the mission was a very and doing that explicitly was a very good move on his part because I think it just creates this Mike, you and I love talking about flywheels.
I think that was one thing that he did to get this flywheel of amazing people into the company. And you know, that that was recently formalized, I think in 2010, 2011, you know, Patagonia became one of the first, very large certified B corporations, you know, um, where, you know, it's in their little bylaws, you know, that it doing good and doing well as.
Is kind of married, you know, it's not just doing well financially. Um, all of those things combined to really get this, this firewall spinning. So while it's rooted in great. Products. It's great products that in the process of being made, do as little harm as possible. And I don't see how anyone can say no to that kind of proposition and working at that kind of company.
And what's so powerful is we actually see this, uh, great product, do little harm. Coming coming actually to life in this next clip, because they talk about how they've created products that embody both of these things. So let's have a listen to the journey that the company went on and how it thought about bringing polyester to the world.
One, one thing that's just happened very recently, uh, that, uh, is really exciting. It's the most exciting thing that's happened in the company a long time. We've partnered with a. With a Japanese mill, they just spent a hundred million dollars in a recycling plant where they're going to recycle polyester.
Now we've been making 40 different products out of all our fleece and stuff made out of recycled soda, pop bottles. But when you're done with those products and they're all worn out, you throw them away. But now we're telling our customers that when you're done with your capelin underwear, which is polyester.
You bring it back to us and wash it first, especially the songs.
Um, and then we're going to bundle that stuff up and we're going to send it back to Japan and it's going to go to this plant and they're going to melt this stuff down. And take it to its original polymer and then make fiber, and then we're going to make more underwear out of it. So we're going to complete the circle.
What bill McDonough calls, cradle to cradle has never been done with clothing. Yeah. Going from recycled material to article of clothing. Back to raw material. And then back to article of clothing, is this just amazing cradle to cradle, as he said, cycle, that is the exact opposite of what you were saying.
You know, you, the Uniqlo's in the czar and the Zaras and the H and M's. Yeah. And what's so exciting is that you can have a profitable business. You can do well by doing good because often there's this perception that doing the right thing in the end costs you a lot more. It's not the profitable way. You have to be kind of greedy to maximize profits.
But the truth is many times it's been found that Patagonia outperforms the garment industry. And the sports equipment industry for profitability yet, they actually have a positive impact on the world because they're doing for example, cradle to cradle polyester. Um, I, I think this is this great, uh, intersection of they have this vision, these values, but the things they do, the things they make actually reflect those.
And I think this is the essence of not only Yvonne's. Uh, authentic, authentic nature as an entrepreneur, but Patrick, I think this is the key to why so many people love their brand because they truly do walk the talk, they practice what they preach. Right, right. And along with that brilliant quality, they have figured out this whole ecological bent to it.
And they've been doing that since the beginning. Really. They kind of fell into it in the book, they talk about, uh, saving one of the salmon streams or rivers in, um, right outside their doors, really 500 feet away from their office in Ventura, California, they were going to the, the local council was going to build some.
Mess up the river still more. And there, the reason for doing that was because the river was already dead. And so someone, uh, had a study had done a study, some graduate student who's no, I believe at Pitt still at Patagonia. They hired him and brought him in to do more studies and do studies and other places.
And that. But, like I said, they just kind of fell into some of these things. Anyway, it seemed like the right thing to do seemed like the right thing to do. And they seem unflappable. Like it's just the right thing to do. It almost has this matter of fact, feel about it, that they just do what they, you know, they say they'll do they practice what they breach and.
I'm trying to think out of all the shows we've done has, has, has there ever been an entrepreneur that we've looked at and studied? That seems to have such a close alignment between values and actions and creating a natural and a very sustainable businesses. So seems so simple and clear minded. No, I don't think we have it.
The, the true entrepreneurial genius, I think from Yvonne is. Taking this deep love and desire to do good for the environment and not just doing things to make the environment better, you know, like saving the rivers and, uh, setting aside Parklands and donating. I think it's 1% or over 1% of all of their sales, not profit, but sales, total gross sales too.
A couple hundred or a couple of thousand organizations on top of all of those things, he's actually designing the business model of Patagonia to be sustainable. So here's actually Yvonne kind of explaining his thinking on, well, you know, doing activities and things for the environment, isn't enough. We need to actually make the business itself and the business model sustainable into the future.
No American style of business is just supposed to grow this business as fast as you possibly can. You don't have to make a profit, just show lots of growth so that you can have an IPO sell a bunch of stock to some suckers. And then, you know, you, you, uh, retire to seizure world and play golf the rest of your life.
Well, um, I don't believe that is, is right. And I always. Felt that if a, the farmer has this responsibility well, so do I, as a owner of a company. And so we decided to put our company in a path to where we would be here a hundred years from now. So all the decisions made are for the longterm, which means, you know, we can't grow 15% a year.
We decided to grow at a natural growth. And so natural growth means when the car summer tells you that, uh, you're, they're frustrated and buying your stuff, your cattle, they just got the catalog and you're already sold out that you just need to make more, but we don't want and advertise on inner city buses to try to get gang kids the right to buy our black Blackdown jackets instead of Timberland North face.
Um, the reason we got in the trouble in the first place, Is that with the scintilla, we were selling stuff to people who wanted it, but didn't need it whenever you're in that situation. You're a victim of the economy. Economy is going to go up and down and you're going to go up and down like a yo-yo. And particularly if you've really follow the fashion trends.
And then you're really, um, in a scary situation. I love that because what he, what he pinpointed there is this sort of dangerous, uh, almost, it feels like a Ponzi scheme, a sort of danger. If you're chasing growth, selling to people who want, but don't need your product means that as soon as tough times come, those people disappear.
And that's what happened. He tells the story of they're expecting 50% growth and he got 30 because the economy changed and they got into all sorts of trouble. I love this sustainable natural idea of only selling to those who truly need. And want your product and what this does is it means you don't have to blast them with, you know, bus ads, billboards.
You don't have to interrupt them and try and convince them because they're already convinced that they want your product. And it just feels like such a natural way of doing business. Patrick, have you ever heard of other brands that are just this natural about only wanting to sell to people that need their product?
Yes. Yep. Um, I, you know, I think that what he's talking about is against this whole obsession to scale, which Silicon Valley is sort of embedded into, uh, business as usual. Uh, unfortunately, but, uh, yeah, it's the first one that leaps to mind is for Ford was originally made. Uh, Henry Ford wanted, was a farmer.
He was a farm boy. He wanted to make automobiles, automobiles were already being made when he, uh, started out. Uh, but there were being made for wealthy people, the $150,000 Tesla leaps to mind and, and that's, they were making Duesenbergs and Pierce arrows and so forth for millionaires and referred, wanted to make a car for ordinary people.
So that ordinary people like him could buy one. Have one. And so you started his company. Uh, ironically he was working at, he knew that he wanted to make a combustible engine. Uh, he needed a spark plug. You went to work where? For Henry, for Thomas Edison at GE the local GE plant. General electric plant in Detroit, uh, Henry Ford was quickly made a supervisor.
And the, the funny thing is that Henry would punch in at Thomas Edison's company and he would go back home and work on his automobile. And, uh, one day he got in an argument with his bankers one night and. We wanted to sell, uh, automobiles to the wealthy and he expletive deleted. He walked out and they renamed that company Cadillac.
The bankers did. And Harry went, Henry went on to make his, uh, his Ford, Ford motor company. So that's one, I think another one that might be Levi's. Because Levi's was, you know, the advertisements were a two horses or mules trying to pull the genes apart. And it was all about quality and it was all about not about style.
Style was a function of, uh, I mean, the design was a function of utility. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's it's um, to me it's very exciting to mansion building a company, building products that are so quality driven that solves such a big problem that marketing, uh, moves from being this sort of, you know, hand-to-hand combat with the consumer of trying to convince them.
You would almost argue a lot about advertising and marketing as long as trying to trick. The, um, the consumer to consume this product, what a pleasant way to imagine being a chief marketing officer, when all you're about is presenting this quality product to the people who know and love you and to tell them about what problem you can solve next for them.
That seems like a, like a marketing paradise. I wonder for how many companies this really exists today. Yeah. Not, not many. This, this last clip I think was my favorite out of all of them precisely because that, that is what I want. Our kind of capitalist society to be is, is more focused on the, the needs as opposed to the ones.
I think this constant gener demand generation. No by advertising and marketing, I think just fundamentally is unsustainable in the long run. I mean, sure. It looks great on the, on the earnings reports, but startups and companies that have to spend $9 and 75 cents to get a customer that pays them $10. I just think that's fundamentally unsustainable and a company like Padagonia, that's so focused on just building products that people.
Need it's really, it's really refreshing. And you know, I want to see more companies held to that high school right now. They're right in that hole. Tell us more about that. The whole obsession to scale there. I mean, they're not going as quickly as they once were and they're a bit of. Trouble perceptually right now.
Aren't they trying to pivot their way out of it. I mean, we'll see. I mean, I don't know when this, when people will be listening to this podcast, but, uh, as of right now, they're in trouble. Let's see how they get out. Yeah, that's so true. So what we can see here from this whole purpose of building great products and not doing harm means that they.
In the end deliver products that have so much positive effect that it, it just breeds this natural group of people that want the product and needed at the same time. And Patagonia has no need for growth hacking scale hacking. They can just. Continue on this beautiful wave of momentum and flow that is created by this high sense of purpose and keeping themselves accountable.
Yeah. And so I was just going to say, it's so counterintuitive right now because everyone's obsessing about the customer and what is the user say, user studies and so forth, but not so much here. We're obsessing about Patagonia's obsessing about the quality they're obsessing about the product itself. If they can make the product, that's great.
Our customers will find us. You'll find them. And you can take a company that you can take companies like, um, Apple and Amazon who might not come with this doing well by doing good purpose. But the shared attribute of success is solving problems for customers and obsessing about it. And this unlocks this momentum, this.
Flywheel. And in the case of Padagonia, their flywheel is that they've now have their own venture fund called tin shed ventures. They have their own food company, they are on this massive mission, but none of this mission is accomplished. If you don't have good people that act in the right way. And for the last part of the show, we've got a couple of great clips that really go directly, like laser-focused into what they're doing with people and culture.
And how they make the, uh, the underlying environment for, uh, great people to do their best work within the organization. Now, we've talked a little bit about the book. We've talked a little bit about how the company came to be the, the, the way. They hire people. And the empowerment that they give them is at the heart of their successes is autonomous, highly skilled, highly committed people.
So let's now have a listen to let's get inside of this story and find out how they do it, how they create this great culture, how they hire people and how they in the end, let them go surfing. You know, we want her to be able to take off a month or two and go on an expedition and do that, you know, two or three times.
So that's, that's the name of the book, you know, that's, that's where I got the name for the book. Cause we've had a company policy that. No, one of the lessons of surfing or powder skiing or any of those kinds of sports is that you don't get, you don't go surfing next Tuesday at two o'clock. Cause you may show up there and it's flat or blown out and you're a loser
So, you know, we have a company policy that when the surf comes up, everybody drops. There worked at that is a serious surfer and they go surfing
you just gotta be careful. You don't have 100% of your employees are first.
So, you know, so that means you got to hire very responsible people and then let them get their work done whenever they. Feel like, you know, as long as it doesn't impact other people and, and the work is done, I don't care when they work. How many CEOs and founders and managers, have you ever come across that had that same attitude?
I can't think of any. Yeah. Um, it, it, it just seems to fly in the face of conventional wisdom, doesn't it? It, it, it just where people are, I think, you know, providing a lot of value, add services in the office place to try and keep them there more. Yvon Chouinard from Patagonia is like, guys, get out of here, go have some fun, go fulfill your dreams.
Cause I know you'll be a happier, healthier, more productive person for me. Like it's I, and it, he seems almost so natural with this. And obviously it comes from his own Renegade characteristics. He doesn't even seem to realize how contrary and he is. I mean, Patrick, can you think of other contrarion leaders that have achieved this?
Well, sure. You mentioned one earlier Richard Branson, right? Of course. Steve jobs. Yeah, of course. Yeah. I mentioned Ron rice of Hawaiian Tropic of course, uh, well, Oprah Winfrey, I think in her own way. Of course. And I think it's, but here it's all about hire people you want to hang out with, right. Yeah, no. In all of their things that he was talking about, they, they do run off and have their sessions and tense ones.
It sounds like about who they are, who they are, why they want to, why they come to work in the morning, why they do what they do. And, but still have a fun culture. Uh, still be the purpose driven, the ecology, the, all of these things are just sensible things that if you are hiking, surfing, you are pretty close to nature and you're in it.
And you can see if you're damaging the wall, uh, or the crevasses are going up and pounding spikes into. Pythons into and everything. And you can see when you're walking down a, running down a path or surfing, you know, bottles, plastic bottles floating out in the water of the surf and so forth. And I think once you are that still that close to nature, some of this stuff makes so much more sense than if you're sitting in a cube somewhere.
Yeah, I think, I think there's this such beautiful alignment between their values and the products that they make. They become so easy to manage people accordingly. But I think the one thing we have to realize there is a secret sauce in how they do all of this and, um, You cannot possibly just walk into any workforce and say, Hey guys, go surfing.
Um, this next clip is, is where Yvonne really kind of puts a, puts a point to the characteristics that underlie this, this whole philosophy and how they can build great products, do very little, um, and how they can let people go surfing. So let's have a listen to Yvon Chouinard talking about autonomy. You know, we, none of us liked authority.
We really dislike authority and none of us wanted to tell other people what to do. So our management system is kind of like an ant colony, um, you know, and that colony doesn't have any bosses. The queen just lays there and lays eggs. Um, there's no bosses in it called it, but every single aunt knows what his job is and gets it done.
And they communicate by touching feelers and that's about it. And it's kind of like a seal team. If one guy in the seal team says, Oh, I don't know about this thing. We're going on. I think I'm going to just hold back a little bit. It doesn't work. Every single person in a seal team has to agree. This is what he's going to do.
And if the leader gets killed, the next guy takes over that he gets killed. The next guy takes over it. It's leaderless really? And that's our management style. So I hire a very independent, very I'm self-motivated people who believe in what we're trying to do and I leave them alone. And in fact, I had a psychologist came one time.
Studied our company and said, gee, I gotta tell ya. Um, we did psychological profiles and a lot of people, you know, to see if, make sure the right brain people were working on right. Brain jobs and stuff like that, but said, I gotta tell you that your people, so the most independent people are seen in a company, in fact, They're really unemployable anywhere else.
Getting your game jobs.
I love the fact that they're so economists, you can't even, they couldn't work anywhere else. Yeah. I kind of like to joke that, you know, 10 years into my entrepreneurial journey, I'm fundamentally unemployable. Not because I don't have any skills, but I think it's because I have such a high drive for autonomy, which is why a company like Patagonia is so fascinating.
And, you know, maybe I would consider working for a company like them, but. The thing that's missing from this clip for me is like, how do you identify those people? And how can you be sure that you're working with someone that has. The intelligence to work autonomously and, and get, you know, and take care of their area of responsibility.
I mean, I can only imagine how arduous and personal and interpersonal that the hiring processes Patagonia is the trouble with autonomy is you ask anybody, Hey, you want to be a moral, do you want to have an autonomous job? I was like, yeah, that sounds amazing. And then it's like, You know, be careful what you ask for there.
Um, I would wanna ask you and Pat Patrick, like you are both very autonomous, productive individuals, writing books, making films sometimes with big teams. Sometimes you're leading the charge by yourself. How, what, what is it the essence of that characteristic for you? Patrick? What, what, what, where does this autonomy start?
Like what's the filter? How do you find it? Yeah, I would say that it has to be self-motivated you have to be self motivated and want to get something done and do something and yeah, I'm completely unemployable. And so let's see, I can give you a list of people to contact to verify that, but just to support what we've been saying, Chris McDevitt.
Tompkins was Roger McDevitt's younger sister. And when she was in high school, she had a quote unquote rebellious streak. But when she was graduating, uh, Chris's counselor told her mother, I know you were planning on sending Christine to college. Don't bother. And she, Christine later became a general manager and CEO of Patagonia for 13 years.
And, um, so those are the people from out of the beach culture, the surf culture mountain. Culture and so forth, all independent people. And I guess the question is, I mean, it'd be fascinating to find out how you motivate someone like that. Um, I think that's, uh, I did not find that in the book, but, uh, I I'm sure they have lessons or there are things to be learned lessons for all of us there.
Um, it's, it's quite remarkable to imagine how a system can deliver so many great products over so many decades with all of these highly autonomous people that are given the choice to go surfing when they wish. I actually think, um, it's the proof is there. I think that Yvon Chouinard has actually demonstrated that.
If he's been in business in 68, if he's written the book, he's got a venture company, a fashion and gaming company, he's got a food company. I think we can safely assume that this does work. If you hire autonomous self-directed people who are on a mission who. Who all share this greater mission of building great products and doing as little harm as possible.
I think what sums up Yvonne so brilliantly is this humility and simplicity by which he goes about it. And the scale of the success that we've all been talking about. Is something that we're so aware of. That's why we chose him to do this show. That's why he's up there with the Nike's in the apples for us here at the moonshots podcast.
The craziest thing is how, how humble he is that in this night last and this next clip, which is our last clip of the show. It's only just dawning upon him. The scale of the impact of his life's effort of the brand of Patagonia. It's only dawning upon him, the impact that he's had on the world. So without further ado, let's have a listen to our last clip of the founder of Patagonia, Yvon Chouinard.
I, you know, we're a relatively small company, but we have incredible amount of. Social power around the world. And it's only done on me recently that, um, that we have this and there, therefore we probably have the responsibility to use that power and not just, uh, hire other people to do the right thing and stuff.
So it's changed the way our company operates instead of just giving money away to. A bunch of NGOs, which we still do, but, uh, we're doing a lot more stuff ourselves. We're influencing. He, we're being asked to go to Washington almost every week now to, um, give advice on dam removal. And, uh, I mean, that's pretty amazing and yeah, I'm pretty stoked about, you know, the clients I did on El cap, you know,
They were really important for me at that time. It built a character that I am now probably, but, uh, um, I'm starting to be pretty proud of that company too. How humble was he, man?
I love how he still says. He said he was stoked about is his L-CAP. Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's like, you can take them off the, off the rock face, but you can't take the dirt bag really. Well. There are a couple of things on it that I think that, you know, there's an intensity and intelligence and integrity there, but it's a kind of like leave the fun and fun in and you know, don't be a greaseball.
Yeah. Yeah. He, he, he really has that, that clear thing of. Here's what I want to be. Here's what I don't want to be. And, um, by, by creating great products by serving customers, by really solving the problem with a product you can rely on and hopefully for life, uh, you can have this very natural, sustainable business where people are empowered.
Uh, not only are your customers empowered by the products, but. The people who work for you are empowered. And, um, no wonder everybody wants to get a piece of Yvon Chouinard and Patagonia that they summoned him to, to Washington DC and beyond. I think that, you know, in, in listening to him, what we're hearing is somebody who is so down to earth, but don't let that fool you deeply.
Deeply motivated. He's he's a Renegade he's on a mission. And even after all the success of Padagonia, uh, he has, he said, no, it's not just good enough to leave the world as you found it. He's like, no, my legacy and everyone's legacy should be to leave it in a better place than we found it. So he's already lifting his game again, which Chad.
I mean, I think this is pretty inspiring for this guy. Who's out there surfing he's plus 70 years of age and he's still climbing metaphorically, speaking, big mountains. Yeah, I, the 10 X that I've uncovered in these clips is really around creating something that people need, as opposed to focusing on what they think people want.
And Apache patching, you're kind of talking about this. How in companies are now obsessed with user studies and focus groups and asking people what people. You know what they want this idea of like buying a product and never having to buy another one ever again, because it will be recycled and replaced and repaired, you know, for life is I don't, I don't see how you can get any better than that.
I mean, unless they figure out this nanobot technology that like replicates the things after you buy them, like, that's the only place I can see. I can see them going after this. And I think they do stand alone. In, in the clothing and fashion and retail category, because of that product obsession and removing all barriers in the customer's mind of why, why they need it.
Yeah. I think that, you know, in the end, he's, he's still the village blacksmith, you know, building better things. Simple. Well-made last a long time. Yeah. So simple, so true, but it takes so much hard work to do, but I can tell you guys that this podcast has not been hard to produce, uh, with you Chad and our special guest Patrick Hanlon.
I walk out of this and I'm thinking if I ever. Create another company. If I look at the companies that I'm involved with now, the bar has just been raised significantly after being inspired by for you, Patrick. What's the big takeaway. What, what changes after studying Yvon Chouinard for you? Don't be a greaseball so true.
So true. Don't be a grease ball. Chad, what are you walking away with? Uh, I, I, again, going back to kind of their obsession with their product, like don't assume that something that you didn't think could be done before it can't be done. So polyester has never been recycled. So therefore we can't do it. Well, actually, maybe not.
Let me, you know, let's look into it. Let's scour the globe and find the best artisans. Or, you know, maybe we can't make this quarter ride tomorrow. Well, actually I've heard of this, this factory in Scotland that maybe they can do it. I think because, because of on came from this lifestyle where he was living in a, out of a van, you know, with the clothes on his back and he just, just climbing mountains and he had to be an extremely resourceful person, you know, he bought his own forge and anvil and taught himself how to make his pythons.
Very few times. Yeah. He just ate, you know, actually this is interesting. He kind of, in a way, goes back to first principles and thinking in a way that Elon Musk does, but from kind of a ground up point of view, instead of kind of pointed out into the sky, like, like Elan, he just, he doesn't take anything for granted and doesn't really hold any assumptions.
So I guess that's all to say, like, I'm going to question some things a little bit more and, uh, you know, not take, take so many things for granted, uh, and think that, yeah, well they have to stay the same. Yeah. Yeah. I want to add to, actually I want to add something, you know, I've always felt like a juvenile delinquent and, um, so this sucks I'm going to do my own thing has always been sort of in my brain anyway, but I really liked this notion of the falconry term, the Eric.
You mentioned earlier about being in a constant state of super alertness and hungry, ready to hunt. Wow. Well, so, so fortunate to share with both yourselves and the listeners guys, I want to thank you, Patrick Hanlon, author of primal branding. You have given us some primal thinking you have inspired us, uh, helped us decode what.
I think Chad has been one of the greatest entrepreneurs, one of the most exciting entrepreneurs we've done on the show today. Correct. Yeah, but before we let you go, Patrick, I just wanted you to have a chance to give a short little plug for yourself. Where can we find you online? Uh, et cetera. Oh, sure. Uh, you can find me on amazon.com.
Uh, primal branding is the first book. It is, I should probably mention, put in a plug. Uh, it's required reading at YouTube. And the second book, the social code is now an audible book and it's only 40 minutes long. So a little bit shorter than this podcast. And, uh, and I'm working on a third. So watch for that.
There is another book on the way that'll be done and, uh, out in two or three months, Nice. Nice. Well, thank you, Patrick. Thank you, Chad. You're so welcome. And, uh, for all of the listeners, you can get all the show notes. You can give us feedback. You can find out our next shows. You can find out all of this information at moonshots.
Dot IO and, and Chad, I think we've got to the point where we're, uh, we're ready to, to bid farewell. What's what's rest. What's the rest of the evening in, uh, Brooklyn have in store for you. Oh, you know, just, uh, heading back from Dumbo to Clinton Hill. Uh, my neighborhood, uh, I had, I get to walk to work it's uh, it's I guess my form of surfing in my, my moving, walking meditation.
Yeah. And just, you know, looking forward to enjoying the spring weather that has finally arrived here in Patrick what's what's next in Minneapolis? Is, is there a warmth emanating? Is it, is it warm enough to ride around that Lake on the bike that we know you love to do? Yes and no. Ironically, we sat out on the deck, uh, over the weekend and we put the table out for the first time.
And I said, isn't it a little odd to be sitting between two snowdrifts? Well, it's the optimism of my wife. My wife said, no, not at all. We knew we admired the optimism and I'm sure Yvon Chouinard would as well. I'm going to launch into my day here in Sydney, Australia. I want to thank you both again. I want to thank all of our listeners.
I want to remind them everything you need about the show is@moonshots.io. And I want to thank everybody for being part. Of the journey into Patagonia and one of the most inspiring entrepreneurs to date on the show, Yvon Chouinard. So thank you to all of you. Thank you to our listeners and we'll catch you next time on the moonshots podcast.
That's a wrap.