David Allen: Getting Things Done: The art of stress-free productivity

EPISODE 181

TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Mike Parsons: Hello and welcome to the moonshots podcast. It's episode 181. I'm your co-host Mike Parsons. And as always I'm joined by Mr. Productivity himself. Mr. Mark Pearson Freeland. Good morning. Ma'am. Hey, good 

[00:00:14] Mark Pearson Freeland: morning, Mike. Look, if I'm Mr. Productivity, I think you must be Mr. Proactive, cause we're really proactively getting into a brand new series on the moonshot show on we, 

[00:00:25] Mike Parsons: we we proactively getting productive about.

[00:00:29] Productivity series 

[00:00:31] Mark Pearson Freeland: that's right. All the PS. It's been a while, Mick, that you and I are moonshots family and our listeners have got into the productivity powerhouses who dominate contemporary as well as classical books that are all in this space. So it felt like it was about time for you and I to get back into the productivity space.

[00:00:52] Didn't it? 

[00:00:53] Mike Parsons: It really did. And I think, May, 2022, what a good time to reconsider [00:01:00] reevaluate and reflect on productivity because Mike quite a lot has changed for us over the last few years. So maybe some of our productivity practices and habits are a little bit in need of a refresh. 

[00:01:12] Mark Pearson Freeland: Yeah. I think for me, it's been a very changing couple of years, we've all adapted to different working styles, whether it's in the office, out of his hybrid office, whether it's designing your work life balance, maybe it's designing just your physical home office.

[00:01:30] Done. Talk about a tumultuous time to specifically be working, but also balancing that time with your family, friends. It's I think a topic, this idea of getting stuff done, that's been on all of our minds more over the last couple of years than ever before. I'd say I, 

[00:01:51] Mike Parsons: I totally agree. And it would only be appropriate that we go to the grand master of getting things done.

[00:01:58] Mark Pearson Freeland: That's right. We've teased it long enough. Mike [00:02:00] way. Today we are getting in show number 181 into the work of David Allen, getting things done at the art of stress free productivity, Mike, look, I'll be honest. If there was ever at the title of a book that appealed to me to get more out of my performance at work and in life, it would be this book, stress free productivity.

[00:02:25] How good is. I 

[00:02:26] Mike Parsons: know, and too often, you can fall into the trap of when you are trying to get things done, that you wind yourself up into this kind of highly like your shoulders, a scrunching that the fingers are going on, the keyboard you're running around frantically.

[00:02:44] I honestly think I've been a little bit guilty of. In the search of productivity, I've probably got myself wound up too much. So this idea of paying off productivity, but making it [00:03:00] less stressful and maybe a little bit more of that kind of flow state is, as you said, it's so appealing. And I have to say, I think the getting things done often called GTD by David.

[00:03:14] Is absolutely one of the bedrock pieces of work for productivity. It has been around for a number of years. His book has been updated. It is commonly used in line with things such as the Pomodoro approach. There's a whole world around GTD. In fact, our favorite productivity to do app to DuEast is actually based on GTD system designed by David Allen.

[00:03:42] I think a little bit of a pre-warning for our listeners. We are all in. So it's a bit of a treat. Isn't it. Mark, to go to someone like David Allen and 

[00:03:51] Mark Pearson Freeland: study. Yeah, that's right. So why don't we really give ourselves up Mike, to this particular topic? Why [00:04:00] don't we get started and why don't we hear from David Allen as well as one of our favorite YouTube channels, London real make the case as to why we need to take ownership and also admit that our brains are.

[00:04:14] And 

[00:04:14] Mike Parsons: it works because also the same time in the eighties is when computers are happening and it probably, without thinking we're subconsciously comparing our brains to computers, but the brain is nothing like a computer. It's this weird piece of biology that does some things well, and doesn't do other things.

[00:04:29] And that's why your system works. 

[00:04:31] David Allen: Now, and if you've read the new edition of getting things done that I did a couple of years ago, I put a final chapter in there on the cognitive science research. That's shown up since I wrote the first edition. That's basically validated the fact that your head's a crappy office.

[00:04:45] Your brain did not evolve to remember remind, prioritize, or manage relationship with more than 40. It does what it does brilliantly, which has used pattern recognition and long-term memory. [00:05:00] So that, you're talking to a person instead of vibrations of light and sound. So you're doing that right.

[00:05:04] Me too, that's a light, that's a flag, that's a camera, that's a, whatever, as opposed to vibrations of light and sound, we make sense out of these things brilliantly in the. Because that's how we, that's how we survived on the desert and Savannah and the jungles and whatever in the present.

[00:05:20] That's a bear. There's a snake over there. Oh, there's berries to eat, right? Yeah. We do that extremely well and barely an instrument of survival. Isn't it? That definition. And it does that extremely and computers can't even come close to that yet. You're starting to, they're trying to, but they can't even come close to knowing who you are and what you're thinking or whatever.

[00:05:36] There's all kinds of stuff we do really well, but what we don't do well as well, your brain is brilliant at all that stuff, but you go to the store for lemons and come back with six things and no lemons. What happened? You tried to use your head as your office, and most people probably watching or listening to this.

[00:05:52] Are you still using their head as their office to try to remember remind, prioritize and manage relationships with the multiple [00:06:00] things in the complexities of our lives? And how do I manage, might want to get a divorce with, I need cat food. What do we need to sell the house with? I need to hire a vice president of marketing.

[00:06:10] And by the way, I just found out I got a major tooth, the tooth infection. That's only six, add that, multiply that by about 20. And you'll have the typical person's life now, and it's all trying to be managed in here. Whereas if you literally wrote all that down on a whiteboard or somewhere, you'll have a whole different perspective.

[00:06:33] Mike Parsons: It's so true. Your head really is a crappy office because Mike, I'll give you the proof that my head is a crappy office in my, to do app. My, where I have all my tasks it's called to do us. As I mentioned earlier. I get reminders to do some of my daily things, my daily habits, things that I love to do and things that are really important from, for my [00:07:00] own wellbeing.

[00:07:01] So for example I have to listen to a podcast. I have to eat well, sleep well, write my journal, et cetera, et cetera. The amount of times mark that I get this little prompt saying. You haven't done this. And I have had that programmed as a daily recurring task for years and still I'm like, oh yeah, I forgot.

[00:07:28] I didn't write my down, boy. Yeah. I didn't do listen to that podcast or, yeah, I didn't read that article and I'm like, oh my God. It is amazing. That is the absolute proof to me that our heads truly are a crappy office. As according to David Allen of getting things done, we are unable to hold everything across our life.

[00:07:51] You think about what you would jam in your personal life. Health wellness, family, friends, [00:08:00] your house, your personal affairs, your training and workout schedule family and friends, relatives, birthdays events and stuff like that. Oh, and then. Your job. That's a lot of stuff and our brains are not designed to hold on to all of those things.

[00:08:19] And I think that's proof as David said, our brains are crappy offices. 

[00:08:26] Mark Pearson Freeland: Yeah. I L I love that metaphor that, it's a crappy office because there's been so many times for me. When I'll be doing exactly as you were just describing, trying to balance some home life things. You've got to figure out, there's a, builder's next door, they're making a racket, but then I've got a call later to do, where am I going to do it?

[00:08:47] Everything is somewhat connected, but at the same time, they're all intrinsically individualistic. So therefore like David calls out max, you can [00:09:00] probably manage about four things. Your mind. But as you've just said, Mike, it's probably what, 15, 20 items, maybe more in, in an and one of our average days.

[00:09:10] And it only becomes more and more complicated as we try to essentially put in goals or targets such as events, whether it's Christmas or running a marathon or coming up to a deadline, it's only gonna get worse. So for me, it really is all about. Writing it all down and I've done that for years, but for me, when I was putting onto paper, that was certainly one way of doing it.

[00:09:37] But you eventually lose track of those notebooks and having those digital versions, like you were saying earlier with to-do list, certainly a software that I use because it's so portable and because. Essentially going to be around as long as I am. So it feels like the perfect little extension to my repertoire of tools that I'm trying to use.[00:10:00] 

[00:10:00] Mike Parsons: Yeah. And let's try and sell ourselves a little bit on the idea of productivity. Even though I don't think we need, it's a very good reminder is, that feeling when you're like, oh, I need to do that thing. And you write it down. And you say, okay, I'm gonna write it down on my list or add it to my, my, my little app, whatever it is that moment when you're like, oh, I remembered, I've really got to do that this afternoon.

[00:10:29] And you write it down. The feeling of, oh, Thank gosh, I finally captured it because you'll no longer at the discretion of your mind. Which we've already said, we know that your head is a crappy office. Do you ever have that feeling when you remember something and then you write it down and then you feel okay, it'll never get away from me.

[00:10:49] Mark Pearson Freeland: I do it multiple times every single day. And it is, it's a good. I think the word is relief [00:11:00] because we've all had the emotion when you forget something and then suddenly it creeps up, whether it's as significant as a deadline for work or whether it says monumental as for getting your partner's birthday or, a, an anniversary whenever it is or whether it's something smaller.

[00:11:17] So for example, oh, I was meant to tell so-and-so about this thing, or. We didn't remember to post the moonshot shell on time. There's so many different avenues to it. And that emotion of forgetting stuff is pretty crippling. Isn't it feels very stressful. And instead when you proactively write it down, as soon as you remember, or as soon as a colleague or partners, Then just write it down, put it somewhere that you can remember, and then you can always come back and celebrate.

[00:11:48] Yeah. When you go out and actually complete that task. Exactly. 

[00:11:51] Mike Parsons: Exactly. It's like a huge reliever and I think that's what David Allen is talking about in his book. Getting things done. It can be stress free if you. [00:12:00] There's freedom in the process. There's this freedom in the ritual. And ahead for us in this show, mark, we're going to get right into everything you need to understand, so you can think and do and build the habits of stress-free productivity.

[00:12:17] And mark. I think the first thing you should do for stress free productivity is you should put in your to-do list. You should put on your task pad in your book because. A member 

[00:12:30] Mark Pearson Freeland: of moonshots. That's right. Becoming a member of moonshots. Mike, you can do it by visiting moonshots.io and clicking on the members tab.

[00:12:41] And you can sign up via Patreon and Mike, it's become a real moonshots tradition now calling out our wonderful moonshots members, family. So let me get started. And then we can try and make the case as to why fantastic members who have joined. Please welcome Bob and Niles, [00:13:00] John and Terry Nile module in Canon Dietmar Tom and Mark Marsh and Connor Rodrigo Yasmeen Liza said.

[00:13:08] And Mr. Bolger, Maria, Paul Berg and Kalman David, Joe, crystal Evo, Christian, hurricane brain SEMO, Ella Kelly, Barbara, Bob Andrei, and Matthew. Welcome, particularly to Matthew, who is a brand new member. It's growing pretty much every day. Now, Mike, we're getting close to that target of making swag, but there's also something else that our members get every month isn't there.

[00:13:34] Mike Parsons: There's. You're absolutely right. It's the men's shops massive series. It's an entire. New additional podcast where we go super, super deep. And in fact, if you become a member, you will find that there is a brand new master series they're waiting for your ears. Mark. It is a dive into rapid prototyping.

[00:13:58] It's 90 minutes going [00:14:00] deep on rapid prototyping, pulling together the world's best thinkers into one single show. That's. The master series, which is only available for our members. So ahead of the moonshots.io become a member, it is literally mark. I was in LA recently. And I tell you what most Starbucks coffees are actually more than five bucks and you can actually become a member of men shirts for less than that.

[00:14:29] What a deal is this my coffee, less than a coffee, less than one cup of coffee. And come on, look, we have 33 members and we have well over 50,000 listeners. So I think we moonshot is, can do just a little bit better on that conversion rate down. 

[00:14:47] Mark Pearson Freeland: Yeah, I think so. And look, you get access to that brand new episode on the master series of rapid prototyping, as well as 10 other episodes, such as managing people.

[00:14:58] Second order thinking, finding your [00:15:00] purpose, entrepreneurship, art of communication, all the way through to motivation. These are big, comprehensive, deep dives into some of the hottest topics, Mike, and I think it's a pretty good spend for less than a cup of. 

[00:15:13] Mike Parsons: Most definitely.

[00:15:13] All right. You've heard enough from mark and Mike. It's time to get back to Mr. David Allen. He's cracking the whip. He's saying let's get productive. And for him, what is really interesting is this often starts with the idea of getting comfortable with discomfort 

[00:15:31] David Allen: and an indicator, by the way, that you don't have to go very far to find opportunities, to be more appropriately engaged.

[00:15:36] Just notice what's on your mind and you have anything. Aside from listening to me and even have any strategic and important stuff on your mind. Interestingly, the more it's on your mind, the more it's not happening, the more you are inappropriately engaged with it. Why it's not on cruise control.

[00:15:54] It's only on your mind because there's still some thinking or some decisions about that you haven't made, or you haven't parked the results of that [00:16:00] into some trusted systemic process that you trust will be triggered at the right time. You actually don't have to finish those things, folks, to be appropriately engaged and get them off your mind.

[00:16:09] But there are very specific things that you do need to do about that.

[00:16:13] So there's a number of paradoxes by the way that happened about all this material. There's some counterintuitive things about what I'm going to be sharing with you in the next few minutes, going to need to get comfortable with that. If you want to get to this place of productive engagement without a crisis, forcing you to do.

[00:16:29] The big paradox is that all the complexities and all the stuff of your life in order to manage that you just need three core principles that you understand and apply. It's not about a new smartphone. It's not about a new elegant planner. It's not about a new piece of software. Those are cool tools, but only insofar as you use them to apply those key principles.

[00:16:48] Once you get those principles, you can make your own system a second paradox here is that. The initial moves and behaviors and best practice of this may [00:17:00] very likely for many of you initially feel very awkward, very unnatural and even unnecessary. It's exactly like learning moves in the martial art, which I did years ago.

[00:17:10] If you want to learn how to maximally produce power with a karate punch, you're going to have to spend hundreds of hours doing something that feels very awkward and very unnatural. Hundreds of hours doing that. Once you do that, by the way, you'll never go back to anything less in terms of producing power.

[00:17:29] Some of the things I'll be recommending will be just like that. For instance, don't keep anything in your head, the rest of your life. That's going to feel a natural, awkward. And unnecessary. Every single thing you're committed to finish the takes more than one step to finish it. You need to clarify exactly what that outcome and project is and put that on a project list that you look at least once a week, every single next action you need to take about any of your commitments that you're involved in.

[00:17:54] You need to clarify those and park those inappropriate places that you're going to see those actions on a regular basis. [00:18:00] That's going to feel awkward, unnatural, and unnecessary. But those are the final paradox of all of this wrap, all that together is that some very specific, but seemingly mundane behaviors when applied produce the capacity for you to exist in a kind of sophisticated spontaneity, which in my experience is a key element to a successful life.

[00:18:27] Mike Parsons: Whoa. 

[00:18:28] Mark Pearson Freeland: There's a lot of information in there. Like 

[00:18:31] Mike Parsons: he, he's funny, isn't he, interlay is like very practical stuff with some bigger philosophical thinking. It's it's actually really fun to try and pull apart because there's actually quite a lot in what he has to say. 

[00:18:44] Mark Pearson Freeland: Isn't it? Yeah. I totally agree.

[00:18:46] I think rather than, and this is why it's such a fun. Book to dig into and begin our productive productivity series might because we have to come to terms with the fact that to be productive is not just about having [00:19:00] lists and ticking things off. Instead, it's all about structure. And as David Allen is saying that.

[00:19:06] Bringing structure into your mindset is bringing into the right mindset into becoming a little bit uncomfortable, like he was talking about as well as then adjusting your behavior to be more productive. So I think for me, at least as we got into this series, as I was thinking about being productive, it's all about ticking boxes, getting stuff done, but the truth is becoming productive is also about improving your efficiency.

[00:19:31] And I thought what David Allen does very well is create that in a new way. Which I thought was, that was quite fascinating. 

[00:19:39] Mike Parsons: Yeah, totally. So I want to zoom in a little bit on something. He said they're like coming back to some task or some overview of the projects that you have going on. And I wanted to discuss this a little bit because what was [00:20:00] really interesting for me is my progression with productivity started from just having a task list to having a dashboard of projects, all of which contained tasks.

[00:20:10] And the first thing I want to share mark is every single Monday. I did do a big zoom out looking across all my. And I review each of those, looking at their tasks that are within them. And I'm often fine tuning and moving through some things around. And I love this idea on Monday morning of looking at everything that's on my in my universe, including not just my work projects, but I have things in there.

[00:20:49] Personal things that I do together with my son events that I'm planning with my family, such as vacations, I even have my personal fitness projects. So I'm running a marathon in six [00:21:00] weeks, that's in there. And that includes all the equipment that I need. It includes booking, travel, coordinating with my friends that I'm going with.

[00:21:10] There's a whole ton of things happening in and around just. Personal fitness program or getting the family away for a vacation in school holidays, plus all the work stuff. But you know what mark, the feeling that I have looking at that dashboard of projects and tasks is really. Inspiring in a way, because you see, Hey, this is my world.

[00:21:38] But the other thing, there's a sense of real confidence and empowerment that comes because you're like, I got this, I got it. I've got a, I've got a dashboard. I can see everything that's going on. I'm confident that things are not slipping through. Yep. 

[00:21:54] Mark Pearson Freeland: That is totally. Something that I benefit from having that, that benefits me [00:22:00] from having tasks and lists.

[00:22:02] I think not only are you inspired to say, Hey, you know what, I got this, but also you're feeling confident that you will in fact complete that task because I think what David Allen's really making the case for here is in his book, getting things done is not just to write it down, but it's also to come.

[00:22:22] From a productive activity angle in order to make it happen. For example, in your case, Mike, with the dashboard of tasks, it's not just, you're not, you don't wake up on Monday, look at your task list and it's about, let's say a hundred items with no stress. Instead, you structured it into dashboard of tasks.

[00:22:40] Maybe there's an order. So you've got to do one than the other than the next. So it's almost a prioritization or a timeline perspective. It's all about looking at your task lists with that. I think that that angle isn't it so that you can actually go out and get it done. One thing that stood out to me, Mike, in that clip [00:23:00] from David Allen was something that he opened.

[00:23:02] In fact, with the more that you have on your mind. The less those items are getting done. Yeah. And I think that's a really interesting admission. And if I break that down just a little bit further, if my mind is busy and I feel stressed and I don't know where to start it's because I haven't sat down and done that structure, which is what you were just describing.

[00:23:26] For example, if I feel a bit overwhelmed with a work or maybe it's a marathon training program, It's because I haven't necessarily sat down and done that hard work that may be uncomfortable piece of thinking where I can prioritize or just write down the things that I've got to do.

[00:23:45] Mike Parsons: Yeah. Make the inventory. Yeah. Yeah. And if you haven't written it down, what does your brain constantly do? Have I thought about this? Have I thought about. And that's it. That's stress-inducing [00:24:00] 

[00:24:00] Mark Pearson Freeland: yeah, it is. And then what ends up happening for me at least, is I then start to negatively think about that item or project or task and my attitude towards it changes.

[00:24:14] So rather than the let's use a marathon as an example here. Rather than thinking about the marathon in a fun way, I'm thinking, Hey, this is going to be a great challenge. I've never done it before. I'm really excited to stretch myself instead. It's ah, I don't know when I'm going to train. Oh, I don't know what my recovery plan is.

[00:24:32] Oh, I don't know what to eat. So how do I feel about it? I don't want to do it because it's too much work. 

[00:24:37] Mike Parsons: Exactly. The exact thing 

[00:24:40] Mark Pearson Freeland: that preparation becomes negative, 

[00:24:42] Mike Parsons: doesn't it? Yeah. And what becomes the real twist on this market? If in your heart of hearts, you really do want to run that marathon, but you haven't put in the work to create that inventory of all the, to do's all the tasks, the twist on this.

[00:24:59] [00:25:00] You be, you really get into like a stressful mindset about something that matters to you and that's bad, man. That, that takes you to a dark place so much in the spirit of Jaco. Attack the problem, right? The inventory of every single task, like right now, this is how crazy it is in my attempt to minimize stress.

[00:25:25] This is what I have in my favorites in my task list. I have the grocery list is always there in case I need to do the groceries it's right there because I love to do that. To contribute to the family. I have the merits. I have my mantras. I have everything about moonshots. I have an entire Metta area for everything work-related, which is made up of over 10 different sections.

[00:25:53] And then I have a tab for my music, which is just my personal hobby. And those are the [00:26:00] favorites. There's a list of other things that. Sitting down there, for example I have a whole task area of what I should always have with me when I travel. So my travel is I have actually built from so toiletries cords, gym gear, charged batteries in devices, ibuprofen passport, download stuff onto the iPad, iPhone gym holder, cap, electrolytes, tennis ball, PCR, test visa.

[00:26:26] The point here is I recently traveled to the U S and. Just added the visiting after identity, because I'd forgot to reregister my esta, which is the U S visa thing. Now that was because I was out of practice, but not only did we get oh, I'm flying in five days and I don't have an Ester. So we quickly did it and everything was fine, but here's the thing.

[00:26:50] I added visa to that list. That's why it's at the bottom because I hadn't had to use it for so long because of COVID. Now I don't need to [00:27:00] worry about that. So I'm removing stress from my life. That's what, that's, what it's all about is having that overview. Having that inventory means that you don't have to spin your wheels in your mind.

[00:27:14] Have I got everything for that fight because you just go to the list and it's there. You don't have to sit there at work and go, oh my gosh, did I forget anything? Just go to the list and it's there. 

[00:27:27] Mark Pearson Freeland: This idea of. Organization that you're talking about. Mike to me really stands out as a positive, because like you say, you're spinning less gears.

[00:27:37] And for me, if I'm feeling overwhelmed, it's more often because I have lots of things to do and I don't know where to start. So my brain goes into that. Fight or flight survival. Let's spin the wheels and try and figure it out. But the truth is it's just inefficient. So this next clip we've got from David really starts digging into the structure of his five steps [00:28:00] for GTD getting things done.

[00:28:02] And his case here is really about utilizing organization and structure in order to create freedom and mineralization. So let's hear from David now talk about the structure and how to minimize through organization. 

[00:28:16] David Allen: Organized, a lot of people think GTD in this methodology is primarily about getting organized.

[00:28:22] It's not really, I understand why people say that. A lot of people's systems and their organization and their structures really haven't kept up with their creativity and their commitments. So most people that is a big improvement opportunity, essentially get more organized, but it doesn't mean constraining yourself.

[00:28:40] It doesn't mean creating inappropriate structures. Heaven. I'm into freedom. I love the structure in the road that has lines in it. So I don't have to worry about people hitting me when I'm out on the road. So that's what I mean by having a structure that creates freedom. So freedom for me, for instance, the fact that, here's my in-basket that has all the [00:29:00] stuff today that shown up today's.

[00:29:02] Receipts I generated this morning. And I just loved the freedom to know that's all there. It's nowhere else. I know exactly what that means. That's where those things go here. Support material for things that I need to, I'm waiting for things I need to move on. Here's just reading material. Here's my tools that I have for taking notes.

[00:29:20] The current book I'm reading, my electronic gear charging up here at the desk. Files that basically are my support files for projects that are going on or things I want to have at hand a place to throw my receipts, the business receipts, once I've processed them and cleared them.

[00:29:36] And, it's in a sense really that. Obviously on the computer, I have the organization of things that I need to see is it organizing just means, let me put stuff once I've decided what it means into someplace that I can then utilize that appropriately. So my brain doesn't have to keep rethinking, what does it mean?

[00:29:53] Where is it and so forth? Now my brain can be freed up to just make good decisions. These various [00:30:00] things. So I have the freedom now to move around and not be distracted if I were to pile all these things up together. If these things that just came in were in the same pile as these, with, along with my book, along with these other files, I would just go numb and unconscious to these things and essentially have a stress about them simply because they weren't in their right place.

[00:30:22] And some part of me is still having to rethink what they mean every time. And I frankly don't have the energy to do that. So what happens is we go unconscious to those things or we go numb to them and that's not very healthy. And then what happens is things fall through the cracks. We don't know where to find them.

[00:30:38] So come on. I'm sure this is common sense to you, but much like you have spices in your spice cabinet in your kitchen, you have sock probably in a sock drawer where you know where to get socks when you need socks. As simple as that is, that's really all, this is once we decided what these things mean, then I parked them where they go so that my brain is not still trying to manage that in that way.

[00:30:59] [00:31:00] It's freed up from it. So organization is really about freedom, not about. 

[00:31:05] Mike Parsons: This reminds me so much mark of how Barack Obama already had two colors of suits and he had multiple versions of the same suit because when he went to the wardrobe in the morning, he just didn't want to spend any energy going.

[00:31:18] What should I wear? It was literally down to gray or black. Yeah, exactly. And we all actually. From the, this process that David Allen pointed out, I think we've talked a lot about capturing and clarifying around the previous clips. So I'd like to talk a little bit more about the organization and reflect.

[00:31:41] And for me, the big thing here, mark, is what we're really talking about is having these buckets in your work. So whether it's professional life or your personal life, that you can organize things into that system, because what I personally found [00:32:00] before beginning getting familiar with his work with David Allen's work is I would just have olives.

[00:32:07] All listed down, but actually breaking them up is where you is. It is the act of organizing and putting them into buckets or groupings becomes the moment where, like you talked about the socks, go in the sock drawer, right? The shirts go in the cupboard. This moment is also really big because then as with anything.

[00:32:31] Something big, like life, you need to break it down in order to get on top of it. Cause you can't just jump around without any organization, because this is too much going on in. 

[00:32:40] Mark Pearson Freeland: Yeah. Yeah. This is exactly where my brain will particularly gravitate towards and probably stress itself out, which is not only okay.

[00:32:50] What's my to-do list. Got this project going on. I've got to get different type of maybe visa in my personal life. I've got to go out and handle this [00:33:00] dog issue, whatever it might be. And where my brain will try and navigate to is okay how do I engage with it? It tries to jump to essentially that fifth step of David Island's structure.

[00:33:11] So instead of thinking, okay what is it? Let's think about it instead. It's right. What am I going to do right now? And the same is true in projects that I've done in my life. I'll try and jump to that solution and really. What I think the value of those steps of getting things done really comes into is what you've just said around the organization piece.

[00:33:31] How might I come to terms with proactively solving or engaging with this particular problem? It reminds me Mike of second order thing. I feel like that methodology in that framework is something that you could start to use within that step three of organization, which is if I have my to-do list, I've captured it.

[00:33:54] I've clarified it like we've discussed. And now I want to organize. Maybe it's [00:34:00] how I'm going to approach. Maybe it's even just time blocking. It's also giving me enough time to think back to the area. That I want to maybe influence and think around how it's going to impact the decisions and the final, maybe second or third order thinking that's going to 

[00:34:20] Mike Parsons: come out of it.

[00:34:21] Yeah. And look, I think the interesting thing here is life is big right now. If you think about a to-do list or a task list and inventory of things, you need to get done. We're probably most familiar with that at work, but I want you to think about all the other areas in life that you can apply this to, for example, your home, your apartment, your house, where you live, there's always things to do.

[00:34:48] Then there's like your own personal development. Be it spiritual or skill space. There's your sort of romantic relationships and your lovely. Health and fitness, having [00:35:00] fun with family and friends then spending time with people not just going out and having a rollicking good adventure, but it's also, you've got to spend time, go see the relatives, the uncle, the aunt, the grandma, or the grandpa.

[00:35:14] Oh, by the way, you got to manage your finances and wealth. All of this, you can actually transfer into a model, like getting things done and you, where it sounds uncomfortable is you might be saying that sounds a little OCD. That sounds a little intense, but honestly, That's exactly how I manage my life.

[00:35:35] And I don't know how I would do it otherwise because I've lived in four different countries. I have family and friends all over the world. I work across every single time zone in the universe. I got a lot going on. I got a family. I have parents to take care of. Like I got to have this in a system so that I don't go, oh, for example, I have a.

[00:35:57] In my list. I have a task that Rico's every week [00:36:00] saying Cole, my mum. So the point here is I think we can get so much from this organization. And once you have the organization, you can also reflect on, geez, I haven't done much on health and fitness, or I need to do more on family and friends. When you have that organization, you can evaluate yourself.

[00:36:21] Mark Pearson Freeland: Yeah, so that, that's a particularly where I see the value coming through. And I think where David Allen's calling out in that clip, we just heard is, although, like you say, it sounds a little bit, maybe OCD to let's say have eight categories of your life areas and what I'm doing in each, but the truth is.

[00:36:39] There is an element particularly for me of peace of mind, or as David calls it, freedom that comes with identifying your items or tasks or issues with any, because the great news is you're not then going to feel guilty when you forget to call your mum, or when you forget about a call or oh, I haven't done my taxes.

[00:36:59] [00:37:00] When I'm not taking ownership of my physical exercise or making time to see my partner, then it falls. It falls to me. Doesn't it. So I'm the one who's going to regret not doing it. If I haven't organized or structured those things and the freedom, the Liberty, the good feeling that comes afterwards feels well-worth the.

[00:37:22] Pretty minor. I would say investment upfront of just writing it down. As soon as it comes to you, structuring it, reviewing it let's say every day or every week. It does seem to have such a big knock on effect, not only from getting things done, but also just that peace of mind, which I think is the core of David Allen's book, the art of stress-free productivity of getting things done.

[00:37:46] Yeah. 

[00:37:46] Mike Parsons: So hopefully we've made the case for capturing and clarifying and now organizing and creating the system. And there's still so much more to get out of David Allen's work, getting things done. Hopefully what you [00:38:00] can see is already that sense of relief you can get. When you organize, you could even create a folder in your organization called.

[00:38:08] Moonshots.io. And the first task you'd put in there is opening up your podcast app, whether it's apple podcasts or Spotify, give us a thumbs up, give us five stars, give us a rating or a review, even because that is one way to live a stress free life. 

[00:38:28] Mark Pearson Freeland: That's right. And one person who's living a brand new stress-free life is low fee from Vietnam, who very kindly got in touch and left us a review on apple podcast saying stay inspired.

[00:38:40] Thank you for spreading beautiful things. Thank you. Low fee for getting in touch, leaving us a rating and review for all of those listeners, as well as members who have gone into that podcast, app of choice, apple podcasts, Spotify, or any other. Just hit us with a little rating or review if you're an apple podcast [00:39:00] and it really does help Mike doesn't it, it helps get our algorithm and our show out there to like minded individuals and listeners across the globe.

[00:39:08] And it really is fantastic. When we hear from you, our listeners about how you are maximizing your life by checking out the show. And maybe getting into a bit of stress-free productivity. 

[00:39:21] Mike Parsons: Absolutely. And listen to, to bring things home today, mark, as we're getting that Luna, dosed comma, as we really bring our minds to not only the capturing of all the things we want to do, but the organizing it and reflecting on it.

[00:39:39] There's a really important thing here. This is all about where and how we. To engage where we put our energy and our effort. So what is really interesting about this as we go from filtering and sorting millions of difference, things that are happening in our life, tasks, [00:40:00] projects, engagements, and all of these big things that are swirling around it, it really is like a big funnel where we capture them all.

[00:40:09] We start to clarify and organize, reflect upon them. That's all part of the getting things done, system the last and perhaps the most powerful idea mark is actually, it becomes about where we put our energy, where we choose to engage, how we can create that flow state. And David Allen now is going to tell a story of how through unexpected events.

[00:40:34] He can find the greatest of serenity. 

[00:40:38] David Allen: Let's start with a quick little story. 1990, I took an overnight sailing trip with my girlfriend at the time to Santa Cruz islands. It's part of the channel islands, about 26 miles off the coast of Santa Barbara. It's a rugged, a beautiful island, but the coast is very rugged.

[00:40:55] Sheer cliffs, a lot of Rocky outcroppings. We anchored in a tiny little Cove there. Not [00:41:00] many of those we anchored in. As it was getting dark. We went below to make dinner and the wind suddenly came up to a house as it does in this area, by the way, can pretty easily, as I'm making dinner, I got the queasy feeling.

[00:41:12] Our boat was moving and sure enough, our anchors were losing their grip. That's very uncool and a tiny little Cove where the wind is howling and about 50 yards away at the end of the Cove, a very nasty C is brewing. So we ran up top, turn on the motor so we could get some control of the. And sure enough ran over the rear anchor line, which chokes the prop.

[00:41:38] We now no longer have control of the boat. We are now at the mercy of wind, which is actually whistling down that canyon and blowing us out of the Cove into the open ocean. But then down along that coast, right close to those cliffs radio, the coast guard, they let us know it will be three hours before their heavy wetter weather rescue boat.

[00:41:57] So we're pretty much at the mercy of all of this. We got [00:42:00] our dinghy ready to go overboard in case we hit the rocks boat and even our lives were at risk. And almost simultaneously, we both looked up at one point and notice the most incredible dramatic, beautiful, full moon and amidst all that chaos. We actually had the experience, this wonderful zen-like.

[00:42:21] I tell you that story because every one of you has something similar, I'm sure. In your history where you were in something you might in retrospect, call the crisis. And somewhere along the line, you found yourself in your zone, time disappeared, you were fully present. You were totally engaged with what was happening.

[00:42:38] You were in a productive flow. And if you had the luxury to stop for a minute, you may have been, had the experience of a wonderful sense of being. Like my girlfriend and I did that night. See, interestingly crisis can actually produce a kind of calm. That's rare to find sometimes why it demands it [00:43:00] because it's the calm that comes from those behaviors that create the kind of positive, productive, engaged experience that moves us into our zone.

[00:43:11] Very clear on the outcome for us. That was. Instantly making intuitive action decisions and taking actions, being meaningfully engaged toward that outcome

[00:43:21] and everything else in our life was put on the back burner. So that we'd be totally present about what was happening. And you've probably experienced that too. And maybe you had this sense of that piece. Wouldn't it be nice by the way, if you could experience that kind of peace, that kind of productive engagement without having the dangerous stress of a crisis.

[00:43:41] It actually is possible. Let me give you a little secret. Getting things done is not about getting things done. It's really about being appropriately engaged with what's going on. Appropriate engagement is the real key here. Many times not getting something done is how to [00:44:00] appropriately engage with it.

[00:44:01] Every one of you hopefully is appropriately not engaged with every single thing else, aside from listening to.

[00:44:08] So there's some key, there's something unique about being appropriately engaged. Why does a crisis get us there? Because it forces us to do those behaviors that get us there. 

[00:44:19] Mark Pearson Freeland: Mike, talk about bearing and 

[00:44:24] Mike Parsons: yeah, I know that was what a store. Yeah. 

[00:44:28] Mark Pearson Freeland: The mercy of the wind that's real danger, three hours for the coast guard to come up that coming towards the rocks.

[00:44:35] There's a risk of them going into the freezing cold water. There's nothing to do, but take a breath, look up, look at the moon and just realize that it's so out of their control. Th they just had to think. Okay let's see what happens. I think the key thing for me though, that obviously talks back to getting things done and productivity is the idea of being in a stressful mode where your shoulders are [00:45:00] tightened.

[00:45:00] Maybe your hands are clenched, don't know what's going on, but with that little bit of structure and the admission of, okay I got this, I've done everything I can. I've called the coast guard. I've got my boat rate. What do I do now? I can be peaceful. I can stay in that moment. I know through confidence of achieving, whatever it is that I needed to do, I can now stay present and a little bit like Eckhart Tolle might be in the moment.

[00:45:26] Mike Parsons: Yeah, and it, and what he makes the case for it. Shouldn't take a crisis to get you to this. You can actually build the system, those five steps to have appropriate attention. In fact, deep immersion, what we might call deep work. I like how Newport or now this is a real test. Can you remember how to say the name?

[00:45:45] For the flow, the kind of the discover and founder of the flow. State me. Hi. Peek send me hi. Oh, very good mark. Very 

[00:45:56] Mark Pearson Freeland: econ twist me. I got it. Mihai cheek sent me. Hi. [00:46:00] 

[00:46:00] Mike Parsons: Very good. So out of all of these things let me ask you, which of the five steps are you going to work on most capture, clarify, organize, reflect, or engage?

[00:46:09] Mark Pearson Freeland: I think actually I owe it to myself to organize it a little bit. I think I utilize a lot of collection and I, or capture, sorry. And utilize to do is just as well as my Google calendar with all my lists. But I think actually organizing a little bit better, putting it into maybe a structure or maybe step 1, 2, 3, utilizing some of those other frameworks that we've learned in the past.

[00:46:33] I think. Probably the step for me, that is something I can work a little bit harder on. What about you, man? 

[00:46:39] Mike Parsons: Yeah. Where I am right now is I'm probably a little bit more on the reflecting, looking at where my energy is going and that's like super exciting and that becomes a much easier when you've been capturing and measuring.

[00:46:52] Where you put your attention, where you put your efforts. What an exciting way to kick off the products, Tivity series mark. I'm super pumped [00:47:00] for the next five shows. We've got some new ones, we've got some classics. It's going to be huge. 

[00:47:06] Mark Pearson Freeland: It's going to be huge. Chris Bailey at to go on the Ken Blanchard and Michael Bungay Stanier.

[00:47:13] We've got some huge productivity powerhouses, Mike, I'm excited to get into it. And I feel as though today with David Allen has really kicked us off on the right style. 

[00:47:23] Mike Parsons: I agree. And I just want to thank you so much for being part of this opportunity to study from one of the grandmasters. So thank you to you, mark, and thank you to you, Alison and our members.

[00:47:36] We really do appreciate learning out loud together with you every single show. And we hope you've enjoyed show 181 with David. Getting things done. What we discovered is your head truly is a crappy office. So don't make that mistake, get comfortable with the discomfort, create that overview, that inventory of all the things that need to get done, and then [00:48:00] employ the five step system of getting things done.

[00:48:02] Capture, clarify, organize. And in age appropriately, and it shouldn't take a crisis for you to put your attention in the right place. And you know what, when your attention is appropriate is focused, you'll enjoy the flow. State time will evaporate. You will enter into the zone. You do good work. You may even do great work and you will totally be on the path to being the best version of yourself.

[00:48:35] We are all about here at the moonshots podcast. That's a wrap.