joe gebbia
episode 18
Broadcast date: 23 January 2018
The Moonshots Podcast leaps into the world of design innovation with the co-founder of Airbnb, Joe Gebbia. Learn how to make design breakthroughs and discover the courage and curiosity it requires.
INTERVIEWS
Airbnb's Joe Gebbia: The Intersection of Art & Business
How Airbnb designs for trust by Joe Gebbia at TED2016
BOOK RECOMMENDATION
SHOW OUTLINE
BEGINNINGS
Design Thinking
Airbnb Origin Story
Founders As Friends
DESIGN
Design as a Differentiator
Get Close to Customers
The Value of Tactile Insights
BELIEFS/MINDSETS
Sync Or Swim
No is an Invitation to Keep Going
Funny Review
Joe Gebbia - Airbnb Transcript
TRANSCRIPT
Hello, and welcome to the moonshots podcast. It's Thursday, January 19, 2018. And this is a big episode, 18. I'm your co-host Mike Parsons. And as usual I'm joined by the man himself, Mr. Chad Owen in Brooklyn. Morning, Mike, I hear there's a heat wave sweeping across Australia. How are, how are you holding up?
I'm surviving. It feels like we only just got through our last one, but the heat is here and I tell you what the inspiration is here too. Isn't a Chad. Yeah, well, it sounds like you need to, uh, take a trip somewhere and, uh, you know, maybe stay in someone else's home. Perhaps there's an idea. Investors might think it's crazy, but some people might prove them wrong.
Yeah. I'm really excited about today's topic. One of the co-founders of Airbnb, Joe Gebbia, and he and Brian and Nate. What was it? 10 years ago kind of had the initial seed of the idea for, for Airbnb that's right. Just 10 years ago. And in that time, Joe and the guys at Airbnb have created something pretty spectacular.
I mean, if you think about what they did in 10 years, it is absolutely phenomenal. They created. What it took the likes of Hilton and Hyatt over a hundred years to create Airbnb has created a hospitality and travel business. That's actually bigger than them. In fact, Airbnb is actually worth over $31 billion.
You'd need to combine Hilton. And Hyatt together to get that same valuation, but Chad it's even crazier than this man. This is crazy. Check this out. Airbnb has over 4 million listings to equal this. You would need to combine the top five hotel groups together and combine it and they still. Don't quite get to the number of listings of Airbnb, and they do all of this with just over 3000 employees.
And to give you a comparison point, if you put Hilton and Hyatt together, you get over 268. Thousand employees. This is the scale of what Airbnb has done. Isn't it remarkable? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, as a user of Airbnb, I can't speak highly enough about it. I, I have to say. My, my use of the Airbnb app is just growing and growing.
And I even have like all these little things, like my favorite places in, in, in, in, uh, different cities. So I have this great little apartment in downtown Amsterdam when we were last there doing the show together. And it's, so it's such a wonderful experience that really, um, a hotel has a hard job. Really hard job challenging don't you think?
Yeah. And you know, one thing that I didn't know, and I, that's why I'm glad we, we dove into Joe and some of the stories he has to share is how design-driven the company is. I mean, now that I know it's like, of course it's obvious, you know, it's a very beautiful, intuitive experience, both on the web and through their app, but it was really great to hear.
How from even before the company was founded, Joe's time in a school at Rezdy the Rhode Island school of design really informed, you know, kind of how he became an entrepreneur and an innovator. Exactly. And I think that's what you touched on makes him so special. He is really a, um, design thinker first.
And this is what makes him a real treat for our listeners today because we will not only hear of course how design has, has really solved a lot of problems that Airbnb faced. But more than this, I think Joe has a lot to offer us is an incredibly. Uh, tenacious persistent guy, and he's really big on the underlying mechanics of teamwork and partnership and friendship.
And so he is once again, another very special entrepreneur, another very special innovator and designer for us to, to enjoy. So for our listeners, there is so much coming up in this show. For them to learn to DD code and to go and use literally straight after the show. There are things that we'll talk about that you can use in your everyday work.
Yeah. Here's just a quick intro clip we found, I think that does a good job of kind of, uh, highlighting some of the more recent, uh, innovations that's come out of the design team, uh, from Airbnb. Airbnb has transformed the way people travel and created a whole new category of accommodations. The service has over 3 million listings in 65,000 cities and 191 countries.
And despite the hotel industry putting up regulatory roadblocks, the company's grown to a $31 billion valuation. This is the 21st century. I think consumers have spoken 160 million people have used Airbnb and found it to be a positive experience. And so I think hotels should recognize what are the lessons that can be learned from our success here at Airbnb San Francisco headquarters.
They're looking to shake up more than just the hotel industry as they roll out a whole new series of experiences around the world to transform everything about the way you travel from surf lessons, to cooking classes, to coffee, and our tours. Airbnb wants to give you new ways to experience the city you already live in or anywhere you visit around the world.
Yeah, their experiences is actually, uh, one of my favorite things to come out of air BNB. The last couple of times I've traveled, I've gone on these experiences with locals and really had a fantastic time. Yeah. I was really, really impressed that you, you did that, uh, on our Amsterdam too. Uh, and, um, I've really made a note to myself to really dive into all the experiences that they offer.
But I think. What's really important for our listeners is there is so much that we can unpack on how not only Airbnb you revolutionized accommodation, but they're now moving into the world of experiences. So I think this all starts with this idea of design thinking, which is really another way of saying empathizing for your customer, for your user, thinking about.
How they really feel in the problems to solve. And that really is at the heart of Joe's philosophy. And this is really informed a lot of what Airbnb does. So why don't we jump into this next clip of Joe talking about how design plays a role at Airbnb, but I love it. Yeah. The founding of Airbnb is that it's a classic design story.
You're faced with a problem, some insurmountable challenge. And you've got your back against the wall. The clock is ticking, and you've got to somehow pull some kind of creative move out of thin air to save the day at the last minute. And that's exactly what happened with Airbnb, but it's exactly what we learned in design school.
If you think about it. So Airbnb is really just an extension of what we learned in industrial design and graphic design. Um, this idea that you can observe a problem and with design thinking or design perspective or design ethos, you can see two dots that don't make any sense, but somehow in your head, you can connect them in a new, in a different way.
I love that, that visual image of the two dots and then your brain through design thinking, connects them. I think it's such a great visual analogy. Yeah. He, uh, he's such a great advocate for the role that design complained business. And I think this really makes him quite special because a lot of great designers are sort of very preoccupied with.
Design and the, and the art form itself. But I think Joe goes beyond that and seeing the role it has to play in the enterprise. And what's really funny is that he had a very deep sense of entrepreneurial-ism very early on that accompanied he's great design skills. And he was always had a sort of a sense of.
The, the entrepreneurial destination that he had, where these classmates from, from res D. So let's, let's have a listen to him now, jumping into the origin story of how they all came together at Airbnb until one day I'm in the living room, on my laptop, and I'm looking up, um, a design conference that's coming to San Francisco is the industrial designers society of America.
Okay. And it was the international version, which meant that there were 5,000 people or so descending on San Francisco and on the website, it said the hotels are sold out. We're sorry. And I saw this and I'm like, ah, that's terrible. People want to come last minute? Where are they going to stay by the airport?
And I look up into the living room and like, we have so much space in our living room. Am I, I've got the air bed in the closet. So I run up and pull the air bed out, blow it up, email Brian, say, what do you think about this notion of hosting designers for this conference in the living room? He's like, yeah, it's awesome.
It's great idea. Save on rent this month. Yeah. Save on rent. And then we realized, well, we could actually invest in two more airbeds and rent three out for the conference and have three guests. So like, okay, well now we need to get the word out about this. So, um, we decided that we would call this not a bed and breakfast, but.
The air, bed and breakfast. And we would design an experience. We'd pick people from the airport. We would cook breakfast in the morning. We give them maps to the San Francisco and a Bart pass the ride, the subway. And so this idea was born. Um, and so it was incredible to see you have this harebrained idea.
That you have no idea, pretty random idea. Let's just call it what it is, right. It's out of survival, totally out of right. We need to make enough cash to save her apartment for that month. And you know, this whole premise was just seen. Two unrelated dots and combining them in a new, in a different way.
Creativity, anybody could have pulled that into earbud for that conference and made your breakfast.com. There was no technical innovation. There was no patent filed. There's no special algorithm. It was just like, uh, there's a need. And we have something that the people want. Let's let's do this and let's design it.
Yeah. Hmm, it's such a, such an interesting origin story that I think my favorite part is like any, anyone could have charged a hundred dollars for someone to stay on their air mattress in their apartment, but because Joe has this design background, He took it that like one further step and was like, you know what, I'm going to create a website.
I'm going to kind of formalize it. I'm going to market it. And. I'm going to take these people around and understand what they want when they come and visit a city. And I think it was that that set him up and Brian and Nate to take that idea and run with it because, you know, couch surfing had been a thing forever, but it never took off into a $31 billion.
Company it's I think it's quite healthy actually, that he can sit there and say, look, no patents were filed, no proprietary solutions happening here. There was a problem. And we went out and met it and, and what's also very interesting. Here is how the adversity almost the need to survive was actually the driver here.
And. The other thing that I thought was, was really powerful was the way in which he saw a frustration, a need in market. It was very Richard Branch in, at brands and ask. I can almost imagine, you know, Joe and the other guys at Airbnb with their chalkboards, it's just like Richard Branch. This is where their worlds intersect, which is when you find these big frustrations and nobody's serving those frustration, there lies your opportunity.
And not just their own perceived frustration, but going out into the real world and finding and asking and digging deep into their frustrations as well. And I think that's maybe what differentiates. Richard Branson and, and Joe a bit is icy. Joe is much more customer focused and kind of getting outside of the building as they say in the startup world.
Whereas Richard Branson, I do think is maybe a little selfishly, you know, solving his own problems, but they're great ideas. And, you know, he doesn't end up getting the traction with them and building billion dollar businesses. But I think with Joe, like the design thinking is really at the core. Of what, of what he's building it.
The other really fascinating thing with the origin story of Airbnb is Joe and Brian. One of his co-founders knew each other from school at , you know, but they started the company well after their time at school. And so here's a clip. Of Joe, just talking about kind of the origin of his and Brian's relationship and kind of how, what he saw fate doing to them as the years went on was because I was in sports that I met Brian because I was running basketball team.
He was running the hockey team now. And so we would end up meeting each other in the office of student life. And it'd be like, who's this guy, like he was looking at me saying the same thing. So we nurtured this, this friendship, um, uh, during our time there largely through sports also through design, of course, a lot of mutual friends and, um, you know, skip, skip ahead to, uh, to senior year we worked on a project together.
And we got paired up and our, the output of what we created was so different than everybody else, um, that I remember thinking to myself, wow, there's something special about this guy. And I really thought that if you put us in the same room, we can think of something big. And so the night before, uh, he's graduating, I was doing a five-year program.
So I was there a little bit longer. Um, The night before he's graduating, he's about to move to the West coast. And, um, I had this, this, this, this feeling is growing and I felt like I just needed to tell him. So I invited him out for a slice of pizza and classy. I kind of, I looked him in the eye and I said, Brian, um, I think we're going to start a business one day.
And I think they're gonna write a book about it. Well, didn't they write a book about Airbnb, Holy smoke. But Chad, don't you find it disarming that Joe, so early, just still at college had this intuition is foretelling of what was to come it's really speaks to not only his design sense. But he truly has a sense of friendship of teamwork and collaboration and almost destiny is what speaks to me about that clip.
Yeah. And, you know, they kind of almost did a little bit of like founder dating in, in school in a way. Right. They had, uh, you know, uh, A clearly defined kind of scope of work in this senior project for Brian in that experience, you know, however long that was like two weeks, four weeks, they were able to see how they worked together and, you know, Joe just, he recognized like he and I.
Could do really great things. And there was probably a spark of them talking about, you know, what, and, you know, I'd like to start my own company when I get out of school or, you know, I want to go and try and do this sort of thing. And I think that's what I'm taking away is, you know, many of us, especially, so entrepreneurs may feel like the silver bullet to our problems is a founder.
And maybe sometimes we jump in too soon, you know, with a business partner or a co-founder. Uh, and I actually think. What Joe and Brian had that experience of working on this senior project together is a really great kind of just test run. And so maybe that's something that, that we can do is, you know, instead of maybe just jumping into a joint venture or partnership can configure out a project to work on, um, or look at past projects and people that we've really enjoyed working with.
I mean, that's why we started this podcast, you know, worked together in the past and said, Hey, you know, I think you're doing some really cool stuff. Let's try this out. And yeah, in the end, this podcast was born. So that, that's what I love about this, this story of their friendship. Yeah. And I think there's another level of learning here to build on what you just said, which is, I don't think you can do great stuff, truly great stuff.
As a lone Wolf, as the wizard in the tower. I think you need. Co-founders co-conspirators you need partners in crime? Like I could not imagine just making a podcast without you, Chad. I can't imagine. Yeah. And so many things here and, uh, in life require. Teamwork and, and different points of view. Sometimes co-founders nudge each other when one's down picks the other one up.
I think, uh, this is a great learning in that go out and do stuff with people. And learn if they're a good fit, but when you find people that are a good fit, that people that just feel great to work with hold on to them because you need them. And don't my take. It is don't be selfish. Don't be selfish.
Don't think it should be all yours because. You know, share the, share the pie, share the cake and the things you get in return from co-founders from having good people around you. I think the Airbnb case is proof enough. This is what happens when good buddies with talent get together on a mission.
Amazing things can happen. Yeah, I think for me, especially because I've kind of been on this solo journey for almost 10 years now, I am realizing that finding those people, that the people that I work best with always end up becoming really great friends. And I think that that's just a reinforcing cycle, uh, for me to have people that push me to do bigger and better things.
Right. And I think that if you're a, um, an entrepreneur listening to the show and your thinking to yourself, I really need to go find, I really need a coach founder. The best tip I can give you is go out to meet ups, go out to nonprofits, go to conferences and just get over the. The fear of connecting to people you don't know and really search for that person, ask your, uh, ask your, your friends for introductions.
Don't be scared because when you get over it and find somebody who's a good partner in crime, it is so, so worth it. But I think, I think Joe's got a lot more than, uh, than just, you know, being a team, finding founders and, uh, uh, to offer us, I think what we've got coming up now for our listeners is some serious design insight.
So let me, let me just say this, that, that what truly does differentiate Airbnb is, is the design experience. And if you're in any doubt on the, the power of it, I would only ask you to think, Chad, can you think of any, the one that has successfully challenged Airbnb in their business anywhere in the world?
No, right. Yeah. And it's been there for 10 years. You don't think that that someone could have come up with a competitive advantage against Airbnb and the truth really is that they have differentiated. Through design by design. They have a competitive advantage that is almost Epic and scale. It's Uber like it's Amazon, like, and that's why the hotel industry is running scared from these guys.
And so they should be. So let's now go into this world of design and let's listen to Joe. Gibeah talking about how you can create differentiation by design. As the internet has matured, I feel like, and as like technology and, um, computers have matured, the Plainfield in my mind has largely leveled. Yeah.
Right. Like what used to be a competitive advantage, whether that was, you know, megahertz speed or screen size or, or whatever, ran like everybody now has access to the same stuff. Yeah. So the tech Plainfield has largely leveled, which begs the question. How else do you differentiate? And the way that we've always thought about is through design, right?
Maybe the details can help us differentiate, maybe are, are, you know, in sometimes insane attention to details can help us elevate beyond, you know, the rest of the noise in the, in, in our, in our industry. And I want to clarify too, we're using the big. Know, capital D design. This is not just simply icons and fonts and, and whatnot.
This is designing the entire experience from how someone hears about Airbnb to then how someone becomes a super host on Airbnb and every. Little thing along the way. You know, I think the first learnings that came through, uh, some of the stories that Joe shared was it was really awkward for people to be handing over cash to strangers and strangers homes.
So. Kind of the first to-do list on their, on their technical, uh, spec sheet was implement a payments system so that people don't have that awkward exchange inside someone's home all the way to actual design decisions. Like how changing the star button for listings that you wanted to save. To a heart increased engagement, I think 30 or 40% just in one week, which is such a huge lift that, you know, they didn't even believe it.
And they went to the, to the analytics team and was like, can you double check that data? But, you know, when we say design, I really want everyone to know that it's the entire experience design, not just, you know, how the app works or how the website works. And it goes to the core of every employees experience because in their first week or two, an employee goes on a trip.
To an Airbnb and they take notes and it's all it's. So it's like a vacation and a field trip at the same time. And then they come back to the company and present their research and findings to the entire company, um, and things that they noticed and how they can improve. And they ship on day one, every, every engineer and designer that works at Airbnb ships.
On their very first day. And I think all of that just encapsulates, you know, how core to the business and culture design is and just how they're able to get such huge returns from that. Yeah. And, and I think at the, at the heart of this. Emphasis that you're making Chad is that it is design thinking, right?
It is, uh, thinking holistically in terms of systems thinking there's a great, uh, chat that he gives at Ted and Joe basically explains how they design for trust. We'll put that in the show links on moonshots.io, and I really recommend it to anyone who wants to understand the impact that design can make in their business.
This will really show you how they did design. And there's really two parts to that, which is going deep and learning with your customers, and then really distilling the insights and the learnings you can implement into a product. And the great news for our listeners is we've got two clips that explain exactly how that happens.
So let's dive into now how Airbnb gets close to its customers. Almost in, in any history of any idea that's ever been launched. There, there comes a time in the early days where there's, there's no customers, your assumptions were wrong. Uh, the way people actually wanted something to deliver to them is different than what you had thought.
And think what they call this in the life cycle of an idea is the trough of sorrow. And it's a very bleak, dark time where you're just kind of trying to figure out how to get your idea off the ground and the way that, that. Most people in the way that we figured out how to get out of it was by going to meet our customers by going and talking to our early hosts and guests on Airbnb.
It allowed us to understand their needs and then make something people wanted. We used to travel and actually stay with our customers. I mean, it was the ultimate. Sort of enlightened empathy, right? You were so close to the people you're designing for that. It informed you in a way that, you know, an online survey never would.
So by being so close to our customers, we were able to listen to their needs and then design a product that they loved. Yeah, no, no more, no more emailing of surveys to customers. You've got to go and stay in their homes and live with them. And I can't tell you how many startups that I've come into contact with and even worked with where they, as Joe says, you know, sit behind their computers in, in collect data instead of going.
Literally traveling with their feet to the customer, you know? And it, it, those of us that are kind of in the know it's, it's kind of a no duh sort of thing, but you'd be surprised at how many people hear that. And they're like, ah, I don't really have to do that. It's like, no, you, if you want to innovate, you've actually got to get that close to the customer.
Yeah, I totally agree. And what I've discovered is that rather than, you know, be avoiding working with customers, once you get into it, you find that it becomes this essential requirement where until you've actually tested and learn and prototype with customers. Everything is a guest before then. So I really can't encourage our listeners enough to dive into the world of the customers.
Don't be scared. Embrace your customers, watch, learn, listen, and understand them. And the path to innovation becomes. So much easier once you understand the customer. I mean, you must've seen this time and time again, you, Chad, you've seen it when, when founders all yourself, when you've really uncovered a customer problem, like things kind of line up after that.
Yeah. I would like to hear that from you kind of some specific examples, because I really do think this is so important for everyone. So, you know, for me, I've done a lot of work with, with customers or clients that are, you know, building end user, you know, consumer type of products and services. And in the creation of these things, they're not doing it behind closed doors.
They're actually inviting the people that will be buying and using these products and bringing them into the initial design. Phases, you know, in the prototyping, even, even before, you know, there's 3d drawings and, you know, molds are sent to China for these things to be produced. There are real customers, real, real potential customers in the room with these people working together.
I'm curious, what kinds of environments you've seen companies getting close right to their customers. Generally. I love experiences where you bring a core team of people together, uh, on the product side. And then you bring a core group of customers, potential customers for this product and you prototype like crazy.
So I was working with the team at Breville, which is sort of a luxury kitchen appliance manufacturer. And we discovered tons of problems that people have cooking at home. Chad, you and I worked together with Virgin and we discovered all of the issues that people have trying to be active and healthy in their life.
We even, I remember working so closely, uh, with Nike, when we designed the Nike soccer app, it was all about uncovering the real problems that young people had playing pickup soccer all over the universe. And we even went to the corners of the globe. We tested in Japan, in Tokyo, in London, in Sao Paulo. It was amazing.
And the theme for me. That is the biggest takeout for our listeners, for designers, for innovators and entrepreneurs, is that when you really get in there and understand the issues that the customer has, you're actually able to get in and create new things, connect the dots that Joe Gabia talks about.
Find new, surprising, powerful ways of solving this problem. And if you are focused on this, this is the source of not only a great feature. But a great product. And from that, you can build a great company and maybe have really big impact on the world. So it's all about getting close to customers, but I don't think that's all Joe has to teach us, right?
No. Well, it, it's not an important to just get in front of the customers. You need to have. The, the kind of tangible assets and feedback from the, the experience of the customer that you can then take back to the team or, you know, the C-suite to, to get the buy-in and say, you know what? We behind closed doors thought that we should build this.
But when we went to our customers, here's what they told us. People's opinions, uh, you know, whether rational or irrational, um, Get really can become really focused when you can share a visible, tactical, tangible insight that came from somebody who's consuming your product or your service. So if you could go out into the world and you could gather tangible insights, whether it's photos or maybe some audio or some video, or just notes and observations sketches, and come back with some kind of aha.
You know, I saw something out there that I don't think any of us have seen yet. And here's what it looks like. And this is what I heard from that customer. Who's actually paying us right now for our service. And they said they pay us more if we did this. So, uh, why don't we talk about this a little bit more?
Hmm. So I, what I love about this, this is the perfect end note to what you called Chad design with a capital D, right? This is like once you're close to the customer document, capture those insights, articulate them because the shopper embedded the insight that easier. The way designers and developers can think of new features and products and solutions, but the clearer and the more inspiring these insights, then the bigger, the potential solution can be.
The further the team can go. And I, I really like this sort of. Start middle and end design is a differentiator stop by getting close to your customers. And when you do that, bring back these tactile, visceral, inspiring insights to the team and let it rip. Yeah. And you know, th that is a lot of what I actually.
Do in, in my storytelling for innovators is capturing all of this amazing innovation work that's happening in such a way that it can go back either to stay co internal stakeholders or external stakeholders and say, look, this is what is going on here. Our customers using this prototype and they believe it's real.
And they, you know, they think it's wonderful and. They'd be willing to pay, you know, a lot of money for it. Like GI Joe saying like, Hey, if you just did this, I would pay a lot of money. If you can have that sound bite or that, you know, video clip of, of, of a potential customer saying that, you know, of course your, your design team and engineering team and, and, and superiors are all going to get behind that.
And that's why I think it's so important to have that. Documentation in to give you that validation and feedback of how you're doing. Speaking of feedback, I just wanted to say thank you to all the listeners out there that have been contacting us@helloatmoonshots.io. That's the email address you can use to get in touch with Mike and myself for everything moonshots.
We love getting your feedback. And I just wanted to give a shout out to Brandon, a loyal listener who, uh, who's said that are branching out into different industries, you know, outside of Silicon Valley and bringing guests on like Gary and Lauren, uh, and Simon have been really what's kept him listening to the show.
And I just wanted to say. Thanks to Brandon. And if you have any more ideas on how Mike and I can improve the show and bring you more insights and learnings, uh, we would love to hear from you. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's so important that I know I listened to podcasts and don't offer up enough feedback, support or insight.
So I really want to ask all our listeners too, to keep those emails flowing because. It really helps us understand what people are looking for and how we can best create great content that we're learning from that you, the audience can learn from. So please jump on on, on our site@moonshots.io. And does every, uh, perceivable social media technology means of contacting us there.
So we're listing. So the invitation is yours to share thoughts and ideas with us here at the moonshots headquarters. So I just wanted to, to recap a little bit, uh, Chad and ask you, what was your biggest takeaway from the founding story of, of Airbnb? What stuck, what struck you as very compelling about the way Airbnb came into existence?
Hmm. I think the most interesting part of the story is kind of how maybe mundane the idea is, but the execution was handled in such a way that really made it take off. Um, and you know, Joe kind of, he downplays it. I mean, I do think there is some ingenuity in. Hosting people in your home for a conference because the hotels are booked, but it was their follow through afterwards in Joe turning to Brian and be like, you know what?
I think there's an idea for a business here and then turning to their other roommate, Nate. Who became a co-founder, um, and be like, you know what, you're really great at coding and designing. Why don't you help us iterate on this, this website? I think that's what stands out to me. Yeah. And in the, in the design, uh, ideas that Joe brought us, was there something in that that maybe has inspired you a little bit, Chad?
As you go into, uh, uh, to thinking about tomorrow, is there something that you learned from Joe that you might use in your approach to, I dunno, getting close to customers or those insights or making designer as a way of differentiating your stories? I think for me, it's being more curious and intentional about getting in front of the customer, like without pitching or selling to the customer, you know, a lot of times or executing on, on, on the work.
Oftentimes I can get consumed by doing the work. And, you know, I had a fantastic conversation today with a potential client that it didn't really work out there. Wasn't it wasn't the right time and budget and project or whatnot, but. I just had a conversation with him really asking you, you're like, Hey, how, how is story or storytelling valuable to you and the people you work with and how can story be valuable and interesting to you?
And it was really refreshing. Uh, to kind of have that conversation removed from our, you know, in the middle of a project and we got to get things done or, you know, trying to sell them something. Um, so that's one thing that I want to do is, you know, talk, talk to my potential clients and past clients and current clients more about.
You know what story means to them and the value that it provides to them to try and get some of that tactical insights, uh, that I can then incorporate into my work. Right. Awesome. And the more of those conversations that we all have, the more clearer we see our path, the more clearer we see things that need to be tackled problems that need to be solved.
And I don't think you can go out in the world and use design as a differentiator. I don't think you can build a cohort of buddies to go start something. If you don't have the right beliefs, the right mindset, the right attitude. And like many of the entrepreneurs that we've studied, Joe has a lot. Oh, a lot to add a lot to offer us in how we can go about being successful in the world.
If the design is the differentiator, the hard work, the tenacity, the curiosity, the power comes from our beliefs and our mindsets. And we've got a couple of great ones from him. So let's now jump into this world of attitude and mindset. Let's go in to really, when we face those tough times or when we really need to step up, let's have a listen to Joe.
Gibeah talking about sinking or swimming. I think it's, it's this deep desire to, to constantly get to the next level with whatever it is. And I had this with sports too. You know, um, uh, a basketball coach in seventh grade gave me advice that I've carried through my entire life. He said took me aside one day because I just started playing baskets.
And I've already told you just a heads up, you know, comparatively, I was pretty tall. Um, but my sh shot wasn't quite on just yet, like it is today. Um, and he took me aside and he goes, Joe, you know, if you want to get better play with people who are better than you. And since that moment. Probably with anything that I can think of in my life.
I've always sought to throw myself into situations where I'm probably maybe one of the least knowledgeable in the room, or, you know, I have the least amount of experience. So I did, I started playing with upperclassmen in regards to basketball at the YMCA and at my high school at the time, I was always playing with guys who were taller than me, stronger than me had better skills than I did.
Um, and I feel like that. Just being thrown into an experience like that. It sort of, it forces kind of sink or swim, like it kind of forces you and you have to find the self-reliance inside of you. Hm. You know what this reminds me of Mike is the clip from Jack ma about hiring, where they look for hiring, you know, someone more advanced and skilled than you are, and that that's the people that you should be hiring because they'll be, you know, your bosses one day.
And I think not only that, but I just love this idea of Joe surrounding himself with people that's going to continually push him to do more and better. Yeah. And, and the, the kind of twist on this is that it's a theme that we've seen come up. Not only with Jack. I think Richard Branson is also very much about hiring great people around surrounding himself with great people and the unexpected benefit of not only having more A-players in your team is that you can learn from them.
And from the, the journey of understanding how they do it and learning, I think also comes an important ingredient. Inspiration. I mean, of course, who doesn't want to be inspired by their colleagues, their peers and their teammates yet. What's so interesting is a lot of companies have this bad habit where senior managers really feel threatened by super talented.
Uh, people. And I think if you just think about it the other way and embrace it and ask yourself, what can I learn? How can I be inspired by this person? I think this is a great tip for anyone looking to go and start something big. Mm. Yeah. And it doesn't necessarily have to be, you know, your friends or roommates in the case of Joe, you know, he had to go and seek out the upperclassmen and other, you know, pickup games, uh, people to find the people that could, that could challenge him.
And I'd just like to kind of echo your advice to, you know, going to meet ups and getting out there and putting yourself out there to find those people that could be those challenging individuals. You know, someone that you've seen that has built maybe a few more apps than you have, or has a few more years of experience in a particular area.
And it's best often, if you can also provide, you know, a bit of expertise to them as well, and this, this, it always comes back to learning, doesn't it on this show and teaching what you teaching, what, you know, um, I feel like that's really kind of the core of, of so many of. Of our discussions here on the podcast.
Yeah. I would say if you were to look at the two sides of it, there's the, the learning. And then there seems to be this theme of hard work that needs to go with it. And without both of those two key ingredients of learning and hard work, I mean, It seems like if we were to try and distill it all down to the simple recipe, after 18 shows and hundreds of ideas that we've learned from and decode it, it would appear that it's the hard graft and the learning that seemed to be the magic combination.
And right here, Joe gave us. This, this thought of think sink or swim, surround yourself with great people. And I find that really inspiring. And this next clip we have kind of goes back and builds upon what he was talking about. You know, being in the Valley of sorrow, where. When things are looking that great.
And everyone seems to be telling you no, as long as you've been close to the customer, and you've seen the, kind of the wonderful experience that you're creating, that it's really just more encouragement for you to continue. So here's Joe explaining how no is just an invitation to keep going. I've learned over the years that no is.
Simply an invitation to keep going and you can accept it or not. You don't, you don't, you don't have to. Uh, but like w ask any entrepreneur, all the guys that have sat in this chair and talk to you, they've always reframed. Whatever's in front of them and turn it into a positive. Yeah. You kind of have to.
Yeah. Because whether it's, you know, a professor telling you, you can't be done or very experienced product designers telling you it'll never happen in time, um, or investors rejecting your idea. Cause it's weird. Yeah. Um, it's sort of like. You can stop. You can. Okay. Wow. Jesus said no, so I should, yeah. Ah, I shouldn't do it.
We're going to be like, cool. Well, it's an opportunity to find another path. Yeah, finding another path. I think this really comes out of this idea of when people tell you, no, it can't be done. It is your invitation to keep going. And I think that this is very much that hard work, that persistence, that relentlessness, that needs to accompany this lifelong learner attitude.
And. What is so fascinating, Chad is how many people, when they are told no, or when they're told that's really hard or that's impossible, how many people give up and constantly we are learning that Joe's idea of all of that. No, it can't be done. That's just an invitation to keep going to double down. This is absolutely the characteristic of successful entrepreneurs.
They don't give up. Yeah. I don't know that we've explicitly called out the idea of grit, but I really think that's what Joe is getting at here. Um, and it's, it's something I know that there's been some books written about it and it's kind of a word that's, you know, getting out there and in the world of education and you know, how can we engender grit in our, in our kids and our education system and, and entrepreneurship.
And for me, it's difficult to know. I don't know that I know. You know when to keep pursuing and when not to, because you, you could say that, you know, some people are probably working on ideas and products that no one wants and when people are telling them no, it's maybe for good reason. And you know, how, how do we know if.
If PR, you know, persevering and pushing through is actually the thing that we need to be doing. Yeah. So how, let me ask you this question the next time you face a great challenge. Okay. When they're saying no, it can't be done or it's too hard or it's impossible, or you're in that Valley of darkness. How do you think you could keep going?
How do you think you could be using Joe Gibson thinking to kind of push through? What, what does this make you think about as the solution as the path. I think as long as I'm getting good and positive feedback from my customers, then I should keep doing it. Have you noticed kind of his examples is of people telling him no.
Is, you know, friends and family or even investors, you know, they got turned down by the. The top 10 investors in the Valley when they first were pitching for funding. But what he knew was that their customers were giving them amazing positive feedback. So I think if I find myself in that situation and I go to my customers and ask them, is this something that you really need and want?
And they're there they're paying, they're demonstrating that to me by, by some exchange of value, then I think it's worth. Pushing through, but if I go to my customers or my audience and there's crickets, then maybe it's something that, uh, that I need, you know, I need to find that alternate path. Yeah. And then might be a different approach to serve them.
I also think a thing that I constantly remind myself and challenge myself about is am I doing something that is. Uh, rooted in the desire to help people to, uh, have impact to do something that matters work that matters to use Tim O'Reilly's thinking. And sometimes you have the best of intentions, but the means you're using, uh, are not right.
And sometimes we confuse the two, we think just because my approach isn't working, that the mission is therefore void, but sometimes. And, and, and Joe talks about this a little bit. It's time to take a different approach, but achieving this same mission, um, yeah, this, uh, kind of having like an existential crisis there for a second, just like, how do you know if you're doing the right thing or not?
If I should keep going, but I think talking, talking it through with you here, Mike, and with the advice we've gotten from Joe, I, I feel, I feel much better. Well, I'm glad, I'm glad you're feeling, feeling better. Um, if, if that's what an existential crisis looks like, it wasn't nearly as bad as I was expecting it.
So when one comes my way, I hope it's kind of Chad style, um, a few moments on a podcast and nothing more. Uh, I found a, a great clip for us, uh, to end on here, Mike. Oh, yeah. So, so, um, we've had so much wisdom and so many ideas from Joe and Airbnb. There's so much to learn from them that we, we found this amazing little anecdote that Joe tells of a, um, of a review that was given.
And, um, we wanted to play this, uh, because it, it really is when you put it in context, it is really not only. Quite hilarious, but also speaks to something much bigger than being just a website. So let's have a listen to Joe. Gabia talking about a very poignant customer review. We had a guest stay with a host in Uruguay and he suffered a heart attack.
The host rushed him to the hospital. They donated their own blood for his operation. Let me read you his review.
Excellent house for sedentary travelers prone to myocardial infarction.
The he is beautiful and has direct access to the best hospitals, Javier and Alejandro instantly become guardian angels. Who will save your life without even knowing you, they will rush you to the hospital in their own car while you're dying and stay in the waiting room. While the doctors give you a bypass, they don't want you feel lonely.
They bring you books to read and they let you stay at their house extra nights without charging you highly recommended.
Yeah, guests, uh, literally having their lives saved by their hosts. It doesn't get any better than that. Yeah, I know. And it speaks to a little bit that connectedness that we all have, I think about all these wonderful hosts I've had in so many different parts of the world. And even when I go back and stay with some hoes, There's absolute, genuine happiness.
Oh, you're back. This is great. And it's a little naughty to that greater connectedness that I think Joe and his co-founders thought that we all had and that we could all be fair, gracious, and very hospitable hosts to anyone from around the world. Um, yeah, it's, it's a very aspirational company and brand that just has a fundamental positive view of humanity.
And I think, you know, as tongue in cheek is this review is it's really regulatory of, of how that. Is just so pervasive all across Airbnb, both on the host's side. And, you know, I genuinely think that people staying in Airbnbs are just happier, more friendly individuals as well. Yes. And I, and I think, I think it's, it's just, it, Airbnb is a as a conduit to framing this positive interaction.
It, it, it brings if, if. To take. Joe's thinking of, if we're all little dots, it connects them and brings them together. And I think this is why it's had such tremendous success in such a short time. And it's not only a great customer experiences. It's obviously a great enterprise. We so much. So much to learn from, from, you know, founding companies, with people that are your friends, that you can be brothers in arms with to using design as a differentiator, or I loved, I love Joe's thought that when you hear no, it can't be done.
It's simply an invitation to keep. Going, Hmm. I, I would be remiss if I didn't kind of bring up some of the, I guess, issues, if you will, around, you know, regulations and, and laws, you know, in certain cities and States and countries, uh, about the legality of, of Airbnb, I think how they handle that will really determine.
If they continue on this massive growth trajectory or, you know, w or if things come to light in the way that it did for Uber, where they're kind of cavalier attitude towards, um, that regulation may come back to bite them. Uh, that I think that is really. What I am most interested in seeing how Airbnb responds and navigates that, you know, I, I, I wish them the best because I think it's it's leagues get 10 X or more the experience that you get at any, you know, run of the mill hotel chain.
Um, but it. It's going to be a tricky road ahead for them. You know, they've had lots of problems here in New York city, you know, technically it's illegal for me to, to my apartment on Airbnb. My, my landlord, you know, could be fine to tens of thousands of dollars, like, you know, per infraction and that's.
Yeah. That's something that, that both, um, citizens and residents and tax collecting bodies are going to have to figure out going forward. That's so true. I think that you do a good job in comparing them to Uber, because I think that's where the difference is. I think that Airbnb is much more customer.
Community centric. I think they are always leading with initiatives. I don't know if you saw, they did this initiative with refugees. There really are leagues in front, in, in, and I think creating positive impact. So they don't come with any of that hubris of Uber. They don't come with. Um, I mean, you don't see Airbnb hosts protesting that they're being paid too little.
Which you do see with Uber. And I think, I think that's where there's a stark difference. And I think the it's really exciting to see how they're going to tackle this world of experiences that come on top of finding accommodation. It's very early times for that new service that they have. Let's see how that goes, because I think that it's really interesting to see what's ahead for them.
They, they, they have so much opportunity. They have great challenges in front of them. But I do have a feeling that design as a differentiator could be the anecdote, the antidote for all of the challenges that they face. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I am, like I said, I'm very interested to see, you know, what choices they make in the years to come and, you know, continue to be inspired by, by their design thinking approach to building a product that 160 million people have used.
Uh, and I'm sure, sure. Love. Yeah, exactly. So now that we've D D coded, we've taken in all of this learning from the world of Joe gabbier and Airbnb. Chad, who, who, who do you feel is tickling you a little bit, uh, for our next show. Who would you like whose world of thinking ideas, attitudes, and babes, who would you like to dive into next?
This is always so hard. I never, I never know. I think Joe's background in industrial design kind of peaked my interest more in that. World. I know you had said, uh, if you'd thrown out DDA, ROMs is one potential person and John Johnny ive. Um, as, as another, I don't know enough about either of them to, to make an educated.
Recommendation, but I think digging deeper into even the more kind of tangible world of things could be interesting to unpack. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that, you know, you mentioned the, the feedback we'd got from a listener that gives me the inspiration to go to someone like Dita rums, who is without doubt, one of the greatest designers of the last century and has.
Many distilled amazing thoughts about design. He has these principles of design chat, which are like timeless. They're just fantastic. So I feel that that could be our path. And we also have the, you know, for the stark, a number of great guys, James Dyson. Uh, so. I think we could go into the world of DDA rums and, and we can explore that.
And, and there's just so much for us to dig into. I do. I am, I'm really enjoying the design bent. It's it's it's just yet another way into innovation, right? Yeah. I I'm hesitant to even name the eases, but that's kind of where my mind goes as well. Maybe maybe for like, you know, greatest innovators of acts in history.
Um, but, um, I do kind of like to keep it current, but again, that was kind of where my mind went with with, you know, just designers in every sense of the word, uh, to the core, you know, th the Ian's is kind of come top of mind. Okay, well, that sounds like plenty, plenty for us to work with as we prep up another show before we wrap up, tell me like what's, what's the pen lasts on the last show.
Uh, you needed to head to the gym. Have you got some boxing TaeKwonDo, acrobatic, uh, workout ahead of you tonight? Or is it a little bit more? Nope, it's kickboxing again. It's uh, My focus for this month is fitness. And so, um, I'm getting to the kickboxing gym and, or doing yoga. That's kind of my, my quote, unquote off day.
Funny anecdote. I somehow accidentally stumbled into the, uh, gentle mat yoga for seniors yesterday. Um, and I was about 40 years younger than, uh, than everyone in the class. But, uh, it was, it was still fun and enjoyable and they were, they were very welcoming. Oh, that's hilarious. That is so, so good. But I have to commend you on the yoga.
Yoga is something I discovered actually around the time that we started working together and you know, this whole idea of stretching and breathing. At the same time. I can't tell you how good it makes me feel when I do it. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Fitness is such an integral part of just my performance. Um, you know, I really just have to be sure that that that's all locked in and dialed.
Yep. I totally agree. So I've done my workout for the day. I managed to squeezing the gym before the show. So I've got a very sunny, beautiful Sydney day ahead of me, which I'm going to thoroughly enjoy because I'll be heading to next week, but we'll record while I'm, while I'm on the, on the road, enjoying a rather frosty, uh, European winter, but I'll be amongst the warmth of friends.
So yeah. That sounds like a great way to spend some time. So, uh, I, I think we just need to remind the, the, our listeners do check into moonshots.io. You'll have all the show notes, all the links to the full interviews, uh, to all our book recommendations. Absolutely everything is, is there. And I think we really want to encourage folks to share their thoughts with us.
Don't return. Yeah, don't forget. You can email us@helloatmoonshots.io and Mike and I will both get those messages. I always get a smile when, when I hear from a listener and, um, you know, Mike and I will take your feedback and suggestions and try and incorporate them into the show. So we love hearing from each and every one of you.
Absolutely. Absolutely. Uh, so that's it for, for another moonshot show. Chad, thank you. Enjoy your kickboxing. Don't hurt too many people. Okay.
And I'll, I'll be off into the, the sunny vitamin D drench day that we have here in Sydney, Australia. So from Chad and myself, a big, thank you. We look forward to having you on the next show of the moonshots podcast. That's a wrap.