DALE CARNEGIE: HOW TO WIN FRIENDS AND INFLUENCE PEOPLE: LISTENER’S FAVOURITE
SHOW 171
TRANSCRIPT
Mike Parsons: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the moonshots podcast. It's episode 171. I'm your co-host Mike Parsons. And as always, I'm joined by the man with the plan, Mr. Mark Pearson Freeland. Good morning, mark. Hey,
Mark Pearson Freeland: good morning, Mike. And today we've got a pretty solid plan for our listeners. Don't we, as we dig into another listener's favorite.
Solid. I think you're underselling things here. I think this could be all time. Heavyweight chip. Whoa.
Mark Pearson Freeland: I think you're totally right. We're digging into listeners are second in our more recent timeless classic series with Dale. Carnegie's how to win friends and influence people. My, you've got to agree with me here.
This must be one of the, probably best known books around the world. Maybe not everybody's read it, but it's certainly been translated into movies. There was a stage production pretty recently, I think, but more importantly, it's nearly a hundred years [00:01:00] old
and it has 55,281 ratings on Amazon four and a half stars.
And it was. One of the most popular shows we've done. It is a time magazine all time, top hundred books ever in history and doing a service to this work, this popularity, this timelessness that it has peruse that it just deserves our attention. Does
Mark Pearson Freeland: it? Yeah. I think it really does, particularly from a you and I, as well as our listeners, we've all gravitated around it.
But as you just said, it is an absolute stonking classic out there in the world of self-improvement the idea of confidence maybe conflict resolution, but I think really it comes down to communication at the heart of it. Yeah,
it does. And presenting the best version of yourself. You can either turn up to a [00:02:00] conversation to a meeting and invest in connecting with people creating a good energy, or you can just be a slob.
That's the choice, right? And I think what Dale Carnegie is saying in his epic time is put some effort into how you go about presenting yourself to the world, how you engage with people in the world and start on the front line. With positivity with listening with really making people feel good because frankly, if people feel good after interacting with you, they'll think to themselves, you know what?
I could do that again. If you think the world owes you something, and then everyone's got to work for you, then you've got a big surprise coming. Dale Carnegie's book is absolutely perfect for anybody who has a lot of interaction in their professional or personal lives, or simply put you want to present the best version of yourself so that [00:03:00] the best things can happen for you, regardless of who you are, how to win friends and influence people has just deserves your attention and your study, I think because there's a lot of practical ways.
To get people to think like you, to get people, to enjoy spending time with you and to avoid some of those bad vibes that you can get in discussions in meetings or tough conversations is all about presenting. The best version of yourself at seems pretty mean shoddy to me, Mac,
Mark Pearson Freeland: it seems perfectly men shoddy.
And today we've got a series of pretty action packed as well as quite simple, almost to follow tactics and techniques. The Dale Carnegie's broken down with regards to how we go out and start to work better with each other, communicate better with each other and ultimately just cultivate quite a nice way of collaborating and communicating with different.[00:04:00]
Yeah. And all sorts of tips and suggestions on how to get great conversation, great agreement, getting people, seeing your point of view. And if you've got a vision for how you want to have impact in the world, then it's not going to sell itself. You've got to invest in it. And that's why a book like how to win friends and influence people is essential reading and a central study.
Mark, what do you think, are we ready to dive in?
Mark Pearson Freeland: I think we're ready to dive in and revisit one of our classic listeners favorites. So let's get into the show, Dale Carnegie, how to win friends and influence people. Let's hear from the investor himself. Mr. Warren buffet, praising Dale Carnegie's training on how to win friends and influence.
Somebody once
said that the change of habit are too light to be felt until they're too heavy to be broken. I had been terrified of public speaking. [00:05:00] I couldn't do it. And I knew if I didn't cure it, then.
And so I saw an ad in the paper for the day, which worked on developing your ability to speak in public.
Mark Pearson Freeland: And I went down there,
they made us do all these crazy things to get out of ourselves. And so we stood on tables and did all kinds of things.
Mark Pearson Freeland: I have done that
my whole life would've been different. So in my office, you will not say the degree I got to university of Nebraska. You'll not say the master's degree I got from Columbia university, but you'll say the little or certificate I got from the Dale Carnegie course.
What w isn't that just so fun just to hear Warren Buffett say, oh, I was petrified of public speaking. This is somebody that, when he turns up on CNBC, like the ratings go through the truth. He's the Sage of Omaha. Yes. Warren Buffett had to work on himself and he used Dale. Carnegie's thinking, and that's what we're doing right now.[00:06:00]
Mark, for you, for me, for all of our listeners, this is just about understanding that we didn't need to go out and show the best version of ourself to the world. We cannot be some recluse in a tower and assume that it's all gonna come to. The world by design is social means peers, colleagues, friends, people that you need to bring along with you now to add a little bit of extra context, we've got another clip here where the guys from productivity game are talking about, like, why is this also popular?
And they've got some fresh thinking on why you need to surround yourself with friends. Did you know that having fewer friends as you get older is more dangerous than being obese or smoking 15 cigarettes a day? Did you know that having a best friend at work can make you seven times more engaged and productive, but regardless of the latest science on friendship, when it just be nice to be surrounded by [00:07:00] colleagues and customers, that you can call your friends rather than being surrounded by a group of people you suspect are talking behind your back and finding ways to sabotage your success.
Would it be nice to have a network of professional friends you could rely on when your career doesn't go according to plan, and you're looking for a new opportunity. Luckily all the tools you need to build a solid friendships, strengthen your network and make people eager to help you throughout your career can be found in an 80 year old book called how to win friends and influence people.
The principles in this book are as applicable today as they were, when the book was published in 1936. And you can be sure that the principles in this book will be used by your kids and your grandkids. When they try to win friends and influence.
Mark Pearson Freeland: What a great two hander of intro clips there, Mike really setting the scene for us as we dig into Dale, Carnegie's how to win friends and influence people to a totally different sources or on buffet as well as the productivity game guys.
But both such [00:08:00] huge advocates for the principles, the 27 principles of how to win friends and influence people and the value that we can have. For me, that first clip from Warren, as you pointed out, it's about confidence getting out of your own head and getting in front of people, being confident and, Warren, Buffett's now considered the best investor in the world, but as he said, oh, I lacked a little bit of conference and look where he is now.
Then when you jump into that productivity game, clip surrounding yourself with people that you want to work with that make your life a little bit nicer. Haven't, we all at some point in our careers thought are, is this. Is this kind of what I want. This is really making me that happy.
Yeah. The reality is, you don't have to be besties with everybody you work with, but they gotta be nice. You want to surround yourself with people that are sociable, that I can fair good listeners that are [00:09:00] contributed like just good people. And the law here is that, you need to put your best.
Version of yourself out there. If you want to attract the right people. To play this on the inverse, when someone is really morbid and always think the worst is going to happen is always negative. What you notice about them is nobody wants them on the project, right? Because they're just like Darth Vader, doom and gloom.
It's just oh, he's I'm all negative talking it down. This downward spiral of negativity, nobody wants to hang out with those kinds of people. So the truth here is you've got to be open to connecting with others. Show the best version of yourself. You've just got to make a little bit of effort. I think this is the big thing.
Like you've got to make a bit of effort. You've got to put down your phone, look them in the eye. Really. Me engaged use good body language because the benefit of this is it is a signal to them that you [00:10:00] respect and understand them and they will then offer the same to you. So mark, what I pitched to you, this is a small pace to price, a small pace price to pay.
Geez, that one really was hard to get it. It's a very small price for us to pay in order to build a connection with someone. Isn't it's just make a little effort, get out of your own ego and say, you know what, I'm really gonna listen to what they have to say to me. I'm going to present my best self.
So they give me the best of them. And then it's a mutual win-win. To me, this is at the essence of this book by Dale Carnegie, how to win friends and influence them.
Mark Pearson Freeland: Yeah. And I think that was something that stood out to me as we'll go through the rest of the show is a reminder that not only do I want.
Request that the people that I work with are doing this for me. I want them to make my life good. But at the same time, I've got to make [00:11:00] their life good, by, by being I don't know, maybe it's grumpy or quiet or whatever it might be. I'm in fact, I think that the book reminds me that I'm influencing and impacting other people's lives at the same time.
So it's like a call to action on both sides, for those who I'm collaborating with as well as myself, how. Improve the working relationship of
others as well. What do you think as human beings, we all make the mistake of when we're working with others. What do we if we hadn't read Dale Carnegie's book, what are the common mistakes you think people make, particularly in the office when they're trying to collaborate with others, what do you think they, the mistake they do when they try to surround themselves with friends, but their behaviors don't align with that.
What would be like a common thing that you see?
Mark Pearson Freeland: I think a common behavior in the office might be you. I think we've all worked with people who [00:12:00] have the bravado or the overconfidence, and therefore they're really loud. They're on the phone a lot. They're quite salesy perhaps in that sort of maybe overused word.
And they think. I am confident. Therefore, everybody likes me, but actually the inverse happens for those who are a little bit maybe introverted. It becomes a little bit jarring. So an overconfidence and assumption that my ego is correct for this big team sometimes has the adverse effect. And I think what came through in this book is okay almost check yourself when you're trying to stop worrying and then live life in the, in episode one 19 in this one.
It's okay. Now check yourself with how you collaborate with others, how you align with them
or you, I would say, another thing that I see is people not demonstrating any genuine. Fascination or interest in the [00:13:00] people that they work with. When people do say, Hey, how you doing? Yeah.
Good. How was your weekend? Yeah. And then that's it. It's okay, what are you doing? Oh, you're a chef. What do you like to cook? Tell me for me, I'm just a curious person, but I often see the absence of any interest in in, in people as being a really common thing.
And I think some people are a bit shy to ask some people, forget to go hang on a second and just say, Hey, how are you, honey? How's your weekend going again? Instead of doing that, just go actually, how are you? I noticed you didn't come in several times last week. Are you okay? Like just that little effort.
Connecting with people, but I think we have to remember that we're all humans are social and we need to have that fundamental desire to connect with the world around us, with the people, with whom we engage, if you really want to enjoy work, because so much of work is the [00:14:00] interaction with others.
It's not just the functional work. It's the behavioral piece. It's the coffee break. It's the celebrations. It's overcoming adversity together. It's all these things that it's not just the, the specific functional thing that you may do at home.
Mark Pearson Freeland: And I would take it just one step further, which is also for your customers.
Sometimes the customers, clients that you work with. I challenge our listeners to think about the best relationships or the best projects, the best clients, customers, and some that they have and ask yourselves. Okay. Am I genuinely interested in what that person does. Do we have exactly the conversation like that?
You've just said, oh, you're a chef. Tell us what do you cook? Because in my experience, the most pleasant projects, when I felt aligned and I felt happy with customers and so on, all of the relations are the times when a relationship exists between us, where we have [00:15:00] that great connection, that communication, that interest in what one another
is doing.
What's so perfect about what you're saying is we're really just talking about having empathy for those around you, stop thinking about yourself and all your interests have empathy for those around you. And we've got a great clip now from Clark Kegley who we going to feature a Fitbit on this show, and he's going to talk about how you can open doors.
Become interesting by being interested. So good. If you just remember one thing from this video, if you just become genuinely interested in the other person, man, all these doors open up who doesn't want to be around someone who's actually listening. People are craving for people to just shut up and listen.
There's nothing worse, right? When you're out with friends and you're in the middle of a story and they're doing this and then what do they do? They reach. And they pick up their [00:16:00] phone, man, if that just isn't a giant middle finger, I don't know what it is. That sucks. Why do people pay hundreds of dollars an hour to sit down and talk to therapists?
A lot of times. Yeah, they're trained. They can coach you through. But a lot of times, if you survey people of why they're doing it, they love that unconditional listening right there. So if you just go into interactions and you say, Hey, I'm just here to listen. Like I'm just going to commit to listening and being interested in people instead of trying to be significant.
And oh yeah. One time I did that too. You're going to get more people to like you, because it's a weird thing. When you talk less and you just ask more questions people open up more, they trust you more and they feel like they know you
Mark Pearson Freeland: more. It's such a great principle that comes from Dale.
Carnegie's how to win friends and influence people. Mike, it's so true. And look, I'm going to be honest. I've probably fallen into the trap of. Bouncing on what somebody said and immediately start talking about myself and I'm going to have to [00:17:00] check myself there because there's nothing more frustrating than when you're on a roll.
You're talking about maybe a weekend, whatever it is. And then suddenly the conversation gets sidetracked onto somebody else. It is it's not something that. Would ruin my day, but it is going to be something that will jar with me and it will instantly create that little bit of maybe negativity.
And by being interested by listening to one another is exactly what you and I were just discussing. It's creating that empathy. Isn't it between two people that can only increase the productivity or the at least the enjoyment of a particular product.
Yeah. Interesting thing for me when you were talking just then was, okay, how do we go into this a bit more and ask ourselves how do become genuinely interested?
How do you create that flow of conversation? So I want to share with you a little thing that I find [00:18:00] really helpful when I'm really interested in someone and I feel like there's a real desire for me. To connect with him, perhaps I haven't seen them for a while. Perhaps I know we're going to be working together or we're about to do a big session.
So I really need to like connect, have that connection before we get into the subject matter itself. And one of the things that I do is when someone says, okay, I've been working on a book. Now normally if you weren't using the Dale Carnegie approach, you'd say, oh, okay, cool. And what else have you been doing?
But if you use Dale Carnegie's approach, you'd say, oh, a book, gee, what's that because I, I would guess that's pretty hard stuff and there'll be like, oh, tell me about eyes so hard. I have to get up at five o'clock. And really, how do you find the motivation to get up at five 30? I use this technique really.
Oh, where do I get this thing? Oh, okay. And [00:19:00] how did you find it? And what you can see that I'm doing here is following a pathway of conversation. That's interested and it's, for me, it's this idea of just going to the second level, when someone tells you, Hey, I'm running a a triathlon for example, or really?
Okay. How are you going to approach that? Do you feel like you're ready? What have you been training? What are your goals for this? It's just going beyond and don't you think a lot of conversation only is surface level at level one, mark, don't you experience
Mark Pearson Freeland: that? Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent without going down at that level too, it feels as though it's a little bit flat, doesn't it?
You don't really warm up into it. You don't really make that connection without them having that level two, as you put it. Deep dive, understanding and actual, fundamentally it's interest. Yeah. So showcase
that interest. If someone tells you here's what I'm doing, just use the very simple framework.
How did you do it and why? Yeah. There's a good hour conversation. A couple of coffees, of course, on, that is a [00:20:00] great conversation right there. If someone says, you know what, Mike, I am a learning to do belly dancing, and then I'd be like how on earth do you do that? Where do you start with belly dancing?
And then what are your coffees? You're off to the races.
Mark Pearson Freeland: Yeah. You went with that demonstration of activists. That level too. Yeah. You become less guarded. I think that's the key word here. Isn't it? The individuals become less garden, therefore are going to be more open to to continue chatting.
And by the way, listeners, what Mike's referring to there is my new hobby of picking up belly dancing.
But so the thing is, I think there's a lot of clues in conversation, which helps you be genuinely interested. And the classic thing is someone says, oh, I went mountain biking on the weekend.
Really? Where is it risky? Like I see a lot of people falling off. Like how do you feel about that? And is this part of a fitness thing or is it more like a family thing? Just like getting out in the bat. This to me, that genuine interest is [00:21:00] asking when they tell you what's happening. How, tell me how you do that and why do you do that?
And you just keep following up with a wise and the house and you just get an amazing story arc and you will actually hear the. Maybe in the beginning, you have to force this interest, but actually people are fascinating things. So there's always a great story in someone. So don't for a minute.
Think that it's always going to be hard work. What you'll find is this great conversational flow. And once you've had that empathy, once you've got that foundational connection, mark, I think you can go on and do great things too. Yeah,
Mark Pearson Freeland: I think once you found that common ground between you, once you become less guarded and quite happy to have that conversation going forward, it becomes a lot nicer, is one simple way of putting it.
But also you've got a lot of opportunity to learn from that person. I remember Lindsay would tell us the active listening, [00:22:00] being the, perhaps the quietest person and absorbing the information from those around you is one way to really Excel your skills as well as your collaboration.
But this next clip mic within the idea of having empathy for one another is building on this common ground. And again it's our friend Clark Keighley telling us a little bit about finding that common ground, but also taking one step further and finding out a way to get people to say, yes, this is
an old school persuasion trick.
Okay. When you get people to say yes to a small task, they're much more likely to say, yeah, To a bigger task when I just gave you right. There is some marketing gold. Okay. You ever seen a seminar and it's cheesy ever the guy on stage, he's speaking, he's who here wants to make more money.
Everyone puts their hand up. It's who's going to disagree with that. So why is he asking that question? It's this to get people to say yes. So then later when he introduces some other ideas that maybe they disagree with, or he asks them to do [00:23:00] something, they're more likely to say yes to that bigger task, they stair step their way up.
This makes sense. Okay. This is also known as like a trial close. If you get people to say yes and nod and say stuff in their head, it's the same thing. So you'll see Tony Robbins doing this, there'll be say, aye. And then you say hi. So you identify with it. It's another form of saying yes or Jordan.
Belfort is a great public speaker. He says this true. Yes, sir. Yes. So it can get a little cheesy, but you want them to say yes. So an easy way for you to apply. This is if you're getting in an argument, which is the chapter of the books from, instead of starting an argument with your over here and they're over here and it's you versus them and you're butting heads come to common grounds and agree on something.
Okay. So if you're in a political argument, you can say, look we all agree that we do care about people regardless of immigration laws, right? And then boom, that starts it on a peaceful manner. And you can, diver.[00:24:00] This is really good. Now I do want to say, clock was getting a little on the sort of Jordan Belfort, salesy vibe.
So I want to pull it back a little bit, calm down clock. The thing here is, he's just saying is if you really want to connect, maybe there are specific things that you can agree on, but you can always go back to first principles. That's what he's really doing here, which is a big part of Dale Carnegie's book, how to win friends and influence them.
Because there were like, let's say, mark, you and I are in violent agreement as to whether you should do belly dancing or not. And in the end I think we would use these this idea of common ground. We'd say look, first of all, you and I are both human beings. Would you agree? Yeah, good. And we both agree that humans need exercise.
They need to be active. Yeah, we can both agree. And then later in that conversation, there might be very niche details of whether [00:25:00] your VO two max levels are sufficiently high enough when belly dancing, we might disagree there. But the point here is building common ground. If you want to connect with someone is really important for the second half of our show, which is all about how to get alignment, connection, how to get people inspired and mobilized around your idea.
This is the pre-work prerequisite. This is like the groundwork that you need to lay in order for people to come to you for you guys to meet in the middle and to feel. Yeah, we've got a strong common ground, so we know that we can go and explore lots of topics and we can always return to the common ground if we're in violent disagreement.
Does that make sense? Yeah.
Mark Pearson Freeland: Finding that common ground straight off the bat is it reminds me of negotiation techniques, Mike, we haven't covered Chris Voss on moonshots yet. One of our listeners did make that suggestion actually. So we'll have to put Chris on the long list, but it does remind me of one of the.
Lessons [00:26:00] from Chris FOSS has experience, which is, you don't necessarily have to agree on the output straight away. But if you can create a common thread between the two parties rather than the very beginning. Okay. We both agree. Belly dancing is what mark should do. Okay. Now let's move on from that, creating that initial connection, I think is what's really coming through in Clark calling out the that principle from Dale Carnegie.
Because once you've created that you can then build on that foundation a lot easier. Can't you?
You can, and I think there's another idea here. This is not just when you're going, trying to sell something. I would say that look, if you and your partner are trying to agree on about what to do on the weekend together, you would use exactly the same brush.
Now we both agree that we really want to get out of the city for the weekend. All right, now I don't want to go to the belly dancing retreat up in the north coast. I would rather go to the [00:27:00] south coast and do a bike ride. We, this is where we disagree, but we both agree. We want to get out of the city. So this is no different whether you're discussing with friends or partners, family, business colleagues, it's not just about the art of the sale here.
This is. About getting connected and getting aligned. So we can go do things together because that's what humans do. And I know I'm really trying very hard to bring this around because I think if we can go beyond that, this is just. This is not only a way to sell. This is the way to collaborate with each other.
You have to have that empathy. You have to then, explore the common ground, get the empathy flowing. So then you can get onto agreeing about, let's go do something together because humans are collaborative. So this for me is why this book is so powerful. What do you think, man? This
Mark Pearson Freeland: collaboration is exactly what can build on once you've received that, that, or created that [00:28:00] empathy, Mike, and I'm quite excited to get into the second half of our show where we're going to dig into
that a little bit further on away.
Yeah. So coming up later in the show, what we're going to do is then go, okay. So you've got that basic underlying connection and foundation. Great. Now what we need to do is talk specifically about what maybe you and I mark are going to do. That is a new level of techniques and skills, and it can really unlock.
So much goodness, because when people get together, I believe good things happen. And that's why this book is so important. But before we go to the second half of the show and unlock all that alignment and getting people mobilized, tell you who's mobilized. And that's the the moonshots listeners.
Haven't they? Mark. Yeah. I'll tell you
Mark Pearson Freeland: what listeners, thank you so much for getting in touch. We've had one of our most active weeks in, in recent memory. I think we've had [00:29:00] people from all over the world getting in touch, raising awareness and. Giving us recommendations, actually, Mike, I've got a couple of special shout outs to AI squirrel in Germany.
Again, I'm following the plea that I think we had in last week's episode for listeners to get in touch with unusual profile handles. I'm so pleased that AI's squirrel has reached out to say that they they appreciate the work. That's fantastic. Dai squirrel in Germany, high five to you guys,
we need to run a competition for the best user handle of all moonshot is because, we've got dragons on wheels.
We've got an AI driven squirrel. Could you imagine a squirrel using artificial intelligence? That is just. That's mind bending, right? It
Mark Pearson Freeland: sounds like a project for 2021 might
as, I'm not sure if the results, but if it ends up in more reviews from moonshots, I'm all good.
Mark Pearson Freeland: We've also had a listener get in touch via LinkedIn.
Has, can we Mike, Mr. Terry Bean, thank you so much again, Terry, for [00:30:00] giving us a couple of great suggestions that are now in our, on our long list. But also we had a great listener get in touch via our moonshots survey or feedback form. So you can see listeners are getting in touch by all of the different parameters in the different media touchpoints of our show and the external factors.
So listeners, just to reiterate, we really do appreciate you guys getting in touch no matter what means it all gets to us, whether it's email review LinkedIn or via our survey monkey feedback form on www. Moonshots.io. And if you are to navigate over to moonshots.io, you can not only find a great way of getting in touch with us and leaving us your thoughts.
But also we have a little bit of a special requests that we make, which is to keep these recommendations of innovators, entrepreneurs, authors, and leaders coming. We love. I have a number of different and sometimes unusual and people [00:31:00] that we haven't necessarily run into before recommendations of who we
should
follow.
Next. We got a great a couple from Terry who suggested Bob Berg and Dan Millman, and frankly, I had not heard of them. So great suggestions then now on the future shows list on moonshots.io. So folks send us your suggestions because we are listening on, we
Mark Pearson Freeland: are always listening. Like you guys listen to us, learning out loud.
We're listening to you. Tell us who you want us to learn out loud from. We've got authors, we've got entrepreneurs, business Titans, and all sorts of tycoons around the world. Everybody that you want us to dig into, send your thoughts over via www.moonshots.io. And we will make sure to give it a listen, give it a read, add it to our long.
Yeah. Much of our success on this show depends on your contribution. [00:32:00] So we're deeply grateful for everything that you send us that helps us make a better show, helps us learn out loud because frankly, that's what we're doing here on the moonshots podcast. We're looking at innovators and entrepreneurs and we're just breaking it down together.
We're asking ourselves how might we do it too? And that's pretty fun. It's pretty
Mark Pearson Freeland: fun. It's pretty fun, Mike. We have fun whether it's talking about belly dancing or business ideas, I enjoy the process, right?
As far as I can feel that there is a belly dancing class coming upon us here in Sydney, Australia very soon, I'm going to quickly divert our interest and attention to the second half of the show, Mike we've done the empathy and connection piece.
I feel like now is the time for us to look at how do we create this alignment? How do we get people collaborating with us? How do we get them to join the
Mark Pearson Freeland: exactly. So this next place that we're going to, we've heard about [00:33:00] being interested in others and listening, active listening, and going to level two.
We've heard about finding that common ground and really building on this empathy. It's now using that to really align with one another. And this next clip from the achieving concepts. They're going to tell us a little bit about how to think about what the other person wants, but also to arouse an eager want in others,
Carnegie opens up the concept saying that he frequently fished in Maine during the summer.
He says that he's personally fond of berries and cream, but for some strange reason, the fish like worms. And he went into detail saying that he doesn't
Mark Pearson Freeland: bait, his hook was
strawberry and cream. He baits it with worms because fish like worms. He doesn't think about what he wants. He thinks about what the fish want and really in summation, he baits the hook to suit the fish.
If you were to be a personal trainer, or you're not going to [00:34:00] look for clients and say, Hey, I want to build a customer base as your sales pitch, you're going to say, Hey, I want to help you lose weight. And I'm going to do that in a personalized manner. I'm going to struggle with you. I'm going to sweat with you.
I'm going to be there for you. I'm going to fight with you. And we are going to lose weight
Mark Pearson Freeland: together.
The key to this concept is really putting yourself in. And another person's perspective, seeing through their eyes, seeing what they want and learning how to align, what they want with what it is that you want.
Sure. This is going to take some creativity and aligning what you want with the receiving parties wants and desires, but always remember you have to construct it through their needs. You have to make it an eager want for them or else it's not going to be effective because the point is they just don't care what you want.
And that's the principle of arousing and the [00:35:00] other person an eager want. When I hear this clip, mark, I just think about all the companies that go and launch products into the world that are obviously, so self-centered look at what we can do in our product, rather than look at all the problems that you have that we might be able to solve to me.
This is such a great example of this paradigm playing out where people are too obsessed about themselves, rather than understanding things from the point of view of what the other person actually wants and needs.
Mark Pearson Freeland: Yeah. Yeah. It's true. Where Dale Carnegie is coming from that we should really consider what the fish wants less see, and think as the other party, whether that's.
You and I collaborating whether it's us working with another customer to build a product or an exactly in the case that you've just said, Mike, when you're building a product for the customer, don't [00:36:00] just guess that they're going to want the same thing that you do because invariably, they probably won't go and use some methodologies and practices and processes to actually go and ask them.
Yeah. And I would say they may even want the same outcome or they may not even want a feature of your product or they might want your project, but how you do it and why they want it might be wildly different. We often assume not only that people want to do something together to collaborate on a project, but we then assume how and why as per our own bias.
But they may in fact do want to participate in the belly dancing classes, but for totally different reasons. And I think here it is always start from what are the pain relievers? What are the gain creators that the person that your [00:37:00] talking to the person you want to invite them to collaborate with you, to join with you in some way?
Think about the world as if you were walking in their shoes and start through identifying the pains that they experienced and the things that they're actually looking for, and then work your way through. Okay. Let's see what might relieve those pains. If you want them to be eager to join, to collaborate with you.
Start by thinking about them. It's so good. Isn't it? My, yeah
Mark Pearson Freeland: it really, for me, when I imagine actively doing this, I immediately go back to that first block of lessons and principles that we were learning. Earlier in the show, Mike, about being interested in what the other person is say, listening, finding that common ground, because I believe that for me to put myself in the squirrel's shoes or the fish or the AI squirrel shoes, [00:38:00] I've got to understand and be on that same page.
And I think that it just demonstrates this whole tapestry, this whole set of lessons and principles and how they're all interconnected within how to win friends and influence people. Whereby we're shown how to think about what the other person, so to get to this point where we can find the eager ones and to provide a product or a concept or a test, even to a customer or a user or whoever it might be, we need to take that first set of lessons.
Don't we need to think we need to listen. We need to find that, that empathy.
Yeah. And I think there's like some good techniques you can do to understand the person in front of you. If you're in such a relationship with someone, you can even start by, fundamentally understanding them something you and I often get people to do is to do the 16 personalities.com test, which gives you an [00:39:00] archetype, which describes in general, your.
Your general type of person that you are. I find that really helpful if and getting to understand people. So if I want to align with them and get them to join something, I understand if they're more of a Sentinel or if they're more of a collaborator or whether they're more of an analysis type of person.
There's pretty powerful stuff when you use those tools, right?
Mark Pearson Freeland: There's some pretty great tests and online tools, just like that one isn't there. And they're really handy because they do deliver what I think we're starting to uncover within Dale Carnegie's book and principles, these foundational pieces of DNA to understand how we can collaborate better and how other people are reacting and respond to things.
Some of those tests that you're calling out like the 16% aunties, one, it helps you along that way. I think it provides. Information about [00:40:00] this type, this trait.
Yeah. And so if you were to say, look, I'm really want mark to join me on this belly dancing training session. I don't know how we got to be so random, but okay.
So you know, the there's another framework that you can use here. It's the value pyramid and it's a little bit based on Maslow's hierarchy of human needs, but what you could do is you could say really address the question of why do you want to do a pro project together? And it might be a functional benefit.
Maybe it makes sense. Maybe it organizes things, maybe it reduces some hassles on something saves time. So that's a very functional reasons why we would collaborate, but then you've got some more emotional areas in this value pyramid. And so you go from functional up to emotional, maybe there's wellness, maybe there's fun.
Maybe there's some [00:41:00] status, maybe there's common reduction of anxiety. These are more emotional reasons why we would do something together. Then you get right to the top of this pyramid and then you get into some life-changing ideas. Motivation affiliation. Those are ways in which you can really understand the other person and talk about arousing a once.
Once you are ticking these boxes and you get right up to the very top, which is social impact and self transcendence, self transformation. If you can plot them. On the person that you're talking to and to understand the functional, emotional life-changing reasons of why, then it becomes a very easy to present your idea to someone, because if it truly is a good fit for them, you will be ticking each of those boxes in the value pyramid.
You could use the circles of why from Simon Sinek, his what, how and why we're going to collaborate [00:42:00] together. So these are all ways in which you can arouse the eager, want to get that alignment to rally them to that. Cause because, Hey, if I like, yeah, I want that wellness. Yes. I want that fun and entertainment.
I want the sensory experience. I want the affiliation of belonging into a group, whatever it is, that's when you're talking their language and you've only got there because you started with the empathy, but this is now the framework by which you can really connect. With someone and with that connection, you can rally them to of course, get them to collaborate with you, which I believe is a very modern, a prerequisite to success.
Don't you map? Yeah,
Mark Pearson Freeland: I think you're right. It's very we can't nowadays in type of business and communication lines that now exist, you can't really collaborate that well without having that [00:43:00] empathy without having good communication. Can you need to almost go back to the basics. You need to figure out how to have those good conversations, communication in order to create a product or even just a working style.
That's really valuable, beneficial, and also quite pleasant.
It is. But, mark, we have to be honest. Work is not always pleasant, is it? Don't.
Mark Pearson Freeland: Sometimes it just doesn't work. And the tendency that I think we all have, and we started to see this a little bit in some of our previous shows and calling up last week, how to stop worrying.
We were learning about how to compartmentalize to react better when stresses worries, anxieties, get in our way and how to avoid pushing people away. And this next clip, Mike, again, influenced by Dale. Carnegie's how to win friends and influence people is about exactly that. So we've gone back to Manny via of the 2000 books a [00:44:00] show.
And he's going to tell us a little bit about how to avoid this tendency that you might have when things get difficult to push people away. And actually one of the great tips and principles of Dale Carnegie's is how to remove resistance by actually agreeing foot. The old Therese
people agree first. Now let me tell you another story.
And the early days of building 2000 books, when talking to potential customers, I'd get into heated arguments about why our book summaries and courses were better than our competitors, but that only led to the customer getting pushed away. That would argue their point about why they liked our competitors and dig into that argue.
But now I have learned better. I have changed my ways. Now, if the Prudential customer says I will buy XYZ company books, summaries stood up getting into an argument. I say, oh yeah, XYZ company has some good stuff. And they're made by good people. And that's the end of resistance. As soon as I agree that XYZ summaries are good, there [00:45:00] is no more resistance from the potential customer.
Now I can talk about the specific features and benefits of 2000 books, all the different information products we offer and by VR different, which often leads to the sale. So why does this work? Once you agree with the other person, they cannot continue to argue against you. And as a result, now you can talk about what you want to talk about.
So really simple. Don't resist people agree first. Yeah. This one is really interesting because I think that when we're presenting our ideas, we often fall into. Of having when compared to other ideas we sorta de-value or talk down the other ideas. And one of my learnings has been well actually, like who am I to make cast dispersions?
And actually it's just ego just saying, oh no. Look at my idea is good. It's good. The other one bad me. [00:46:00] Good. But actually what money is talking about there when perhaps you're talking to a colleague about, Hey, I want you to join my project and they're weighing up two projects.
There's nothing wrong with saying, the other project you're considering. I'm not on it, but you are. You're considering now that is a really cool project, and I guess the, if you're lacking awareness, you might be tempted to go, oh, that's a terrible project. You don't want to join that.
But you can say, Hey, that's a good choice. But I'd love the chance to make the case from my one. And if I know you, I think we're doing some pretty unique things here that would really be cool for you to do. Would you be interested in talking about that? And then all of a sudden you don't have to talk down others to raise yourself.
I think that's the powerful idea here. I think
Mark Pearson Freeland: it is ego, isn't it? It's Ron huddle a ego's the enemy. If you came to me, Mike, and you said, Hey, mark, check this out. I'm looking at [00:47:00] this kind of project. And my initial response was, it sounds rubbish. Cam, count me out. I'm not interested.
How jarring would that be as an experience? And ultimately it's just down to my ego or my subjectivity that then it creates that resistance. And the truth is, I don't know, I don't know the details of the background or the context, or importantly, the challenge and solution, I w I think it's such a great little lesson here, because it, again, reminds us to check ourselves to say, hang on, hold the phone before you react in a way that might be influenced by a bad email you just received, or maybe it's the weather or your coffee's cold, external factors that fundamentally it doesn't need to impact the relationship that we might have instead.
Let's just agree and just say, okay, actually, that's
cool, mate. Tell me more,
Mark Pearson Freeland: Using those lessons we've already talked about that alignment then leads to better collaboration.
[00:48:00] Yeah, because also I think something else happens when someone is saying, oh, that thing's crap. You should take my one.
There's all months when it, when you really get into it, then you start subconsciously going maybe yours is actually the bad one. And the one that you're talking down is the good one. And I think that it's all about rising above the fray and just saying, you know what, there's some very good reasons to do that.
I would like the chance to show you why maybe there are some unique reasons to do our one that I think might really work for you. And I clearly see. I'm different. I'm another option, but I didn't have to talk down the other party. And I think I've certainly fell victim to talking down and disagreeing or no that's crap and trying to fight those kind of side scuffle arguments when it should be like, I think I'm in the search of fit.
I've got a great idea. I think that could really fit you. I want to collaborate, let's talk about what that could be and there's no need to get into that little hand-to-hand combat. Is there?
Mark Pearson Freeland: No, [00:49:00] because once you remove that hand-to-hand combat, it's no longer us versus them or me versus you, is it?
Yeah. Suddenly it's going back to these, this first principle of. Surrounding yourself with people that you want to work with. Yeah. If you're constantly battling with somebody and saying, hang on, but it's not so bad. No, don't always fight me on this or that once you've removed those barriers and there is better collaboration, as well as this communication, it does just feel as though it's going to be much nicer.
We can all have that breath of fresh air and say, you know what? I enjoy coming to work. I enjoy collaborating with because they listened to me. They don't shoot down my ideas. They don't have, they don't let ego and subjectivity get in the way.
Yeah, very good. They say almost these rules of, getting into the shoes of the other person and thinking about what they really want agreeing At first, rather than resisting and fighting, whilst you some might say they're salesy tactics, they're also [00:50:00] good rules of engagement.
When you're trying to collaborate with someone, when you say let's go out and do something, people might be like, I liked the, I agree, but I totally disagree with how you're going about it really. Okay. That's great. Because if we can discuss that, maybe the approach can be even better. That's a really good way to take that on board.
And there's some very interesting moments here now where you see that Dale Carnegie's work also connects with a growth mindset. It also connects with some of the themes that we're seeing across all of the innovators, which is learning, and you're not going to be learning. You're not going to be creative when you're fighting and arguing small points, go out, find great ideas, share them with the right people.
And you might not get everyone on the collaboration wagon, right market. Maybe this is not a.
Mark Pearson Freeland: Sometimes there's not a fit. Sometimes it doesn't work, but that doesn't need to be a reason for the bath water to get thrown out.
We've got bath [00:51:00] water. Hand-to-hand combat metaphors that we're using here right now is off the charts.
Mark Pearson Freeland: I hope the listeners are keeping up, but it's true. Isn't it? These fundamental tenets that were in Dale's book from 1936.
Oh my gosh. And he's got one more, at least for this show. One more goodie. Doesn't he?
Mark Pearson Freeland: He does actually, this one's kind of an interesting one. This is a little bit of an Easter egg, as they say, so this is Manny Vajra again, he's actually stepping outside and above all of the principles within Dale's book.
And actually he thinks he's found what he's referring to as the metal level principle of the book, which I actually think is a great way to end the show. So this is my money via one more time talking about Dale. Carnegie's how to win friends and influence.
Now let's talk about the biggest idea from the book.
And I think this is a secret idea because Dale Carnegie did not point it out as a separate law or rule or chapter in the book at all. But this idea in some ways is the metal level principle. It is the foundation of [00:52:00] this whole book. And without this principle, none of the ideas from this book will work.
So what's this idea. It is a paradox. So hair does, if you want people to like you, you must like them. First, only when you genuinely like the other person that you be able to make friends with them, inspire them, motivate them, influence them and lead them. However, if you don't genuinely like the other person, none of these ideas will actually work for you.
You will constantly feel. Now you have to understand that it is a paradox. If you want others to like you, you must force like them and it must be genuine. When it comes to liking others, it is a matter of the heart. You can never fake liking others because others will always see right through it.
So when you are trying to win friends and influence people realize that it all begins with genuinely liking them. The C for me, what is really interesting. I'm going to go matter once again, here, mark. Ready? You're ready.
Mark Pearson Freeland: I'm excited. [00:53:00] Okay.
Okay. So I believe that if you hold the truth, that there is goodness in everyone, then you can find ways to appreciate and value each individual that you're coming into contact with.
You don't have to be besties with them all, but you actually can find goodness. And almost everyone. And that goodness is a way for you to genuinely be interested. This is a way for you to genuinely get to yes. To talk about something, potential collaboration that they might be very eager to participate in.
And by reminding yourself of the good things in that individual will give you the safety and the confidence to agree. At first, don't always resist and look for the match for the right person to collaborate with. So I think that's the Metta is the, in the end, there is goodness in everyone [00:54:00] and that's how you can get to genuinely feeling good about the people that you're working with.
Yeah.
Mark Pearson Freeland: I th I think that's the core of a lot of this timeless classic series. Mike, we're really digging into that foundational understanding of not only ourselves, but also a reminder to understand others and what invariably comes up as we've seen today about stop worrying as well is when you do break it down into those core blocks, will.
We're all individuals who might have our own challenges, worries, concerns, anxieties. And when we do take a moment to remember and have empathy for that individual that we might be sitting alongside, or in fact, looking down a zoom camera and having a chat, as long as you can place yourself like the fish and think about what your, what you're going to be to giving them and serving them.
I think that's such a valuable lesson. That's
timeless now. Interesting [00:55:00] thing. Talking about valuable lessons, mark is I am struggling on this show to pick the one idea that I think resonated with you the most. So I'm going to take a wild guess and say that you liked the most, the. The thoughts that we got from Clark Kegley around the genuine interest in getting people to yes.
And the common ground thinking, did that stand out for you or am I just totally
Mark Pearson Freeland: on the you nailed it. So building on the the productivity gains. So at clip two that we had about surrounding yourself with people that you'd or certain people that you want to work with, it's exactly that.
So the Clark Keighley call-outs that he makes around being interested in people getting that common ground. That's exactly the connection that I love because it's what makes all of our days, just a little bit more enjoyable. What about you, Mike? Where did you land?
I would say [00:56:00] that, this idea of. Don't go for the hand combat on ideas, confirm and agree with those, the things that are true in the common ground. So you remove the resistance. I think that was a very good reminder for me. Yeah, no, I understand that. That was a good ideas as a valid ideas.
Yes. But give me the chance to pitch you this idea. So I think that was actually a very timely reminder on when, you're trying to negotiate perhaps obstruct things like a big product idea or a vision or strategy or something like this. I think creating that that resistance removal is a very timely, very good advice.
And isn't it so good to go back to a classic mark and just dig it up and go, wow, there's so much inside of this. And it's what did we say? The publishing date was it 1930s, 36, 36 hundreds. Isn't that amazing that there is so much good. There's so much
Mark Pearson Freeland: goodness, so [00:57:00] many tips that we can still learn from, and that are still influencing the leaders and the collaborators all around us.
The entrepreneurs that we learn our lab from Mike, it just feels so instrumental. And at the core of a lot of the great stuff.
Really does it really does well. Stay tuned, mark, and stay tuned to you, our listeners, because next week we will be going to an equal heavyweight. I don't know if it's equal, he knows, but it's going to be the territory of habits, which is a big moonshots theme.
And I know you am noon showed us love, habits, love rituals. So we're going to go to the master of them, Stephen Covey and the seven habits of highly effective people. One is going to be good. Isn't a,
Mark Pearson Freeland: yeah, that's going to be a great one. And your ride is going to be a fantastic alignment with a lot of the interests of you.
Our listeners.
Yes. And at this point in time, the only thing left to do mark is to say, thank you to you, mark. Because boy, we dug up and re polished a classic [00:58:00] together today. And I want to say thank you to you. Our listeners, the moonshot is who just love to learn out loud to join us on this adventure, into innovation.
This adventure into entrepreneur. And today we studied Dale. Carnegie's how to win friends and influence people. And the winning with friends was all about empathy and connection. And the influence was all about alignment and collaboration. And why should we be studying such an old book? If it worked for warranty, If it helped him become the best version of himself.
And then that's certainly something that we can learn from. And it started with surrounding ourselves, with people that we like. So how do you do that? You connect and connection is all about studying with being genuinely interested in others and work hard and diligently to find the common ground, because that is how you get to yes.
And when you're collaborating, when [00:59:00] you have a big dream and you need to bring people along with you, if you want them to get on board, if you want them to get on the bus, You have to think about what the other person wants. And then you can actually remove the resistance by agreeing and taking the conversation to another level.
And the other level is in the end, you need to have genuine feelings if you want to connect and collaborate with others. And that's what we learned today here with the dive into the world, in the work of Dale Carnegie. So if you believe in the goodness of humanity and you can find genuine feelings for the people you work with, you will truly be the best, the very best version of yourself.
And that's what we're all about here at the moonshots podcast. That's a wrap.