Ryan Holiday: Courage Is Calling

episode 149

SHOW TRANSCRIPT

And welcome to the moonshots podcast. It's episode 149. I'm your co-host Mike Parsons and as always. I'm joined by Mark the brave Freeland. Good morning, mark. Good morning, Mr. Mike stoic thinker Parsons. How are you doing today as we continue our series on resilience? I am ready for the fourth and final installment of what has been an epic roller coaster of grit, resilience, learning what it takes to stay in the fight.

And I think we have a very apt. Moonshot favorite today and a very apt book, which is brand new as well. That's where I might. So bookending our series on resilience. We've dug into Angela Duckworth's grit in the scores we dug into Eric Greitens and the resilience from a life and hard, a [00:01:00] life of experience that he had.

And last week we had a Ross Edgley. Bringing us into a physical space today. Mike, we are going back into the world of Mr. Ryan holiday and his latest book, which came out very recently. Courage is calling fortune favors the brave. Look, let's just be honest, Ryan holiday new will making this series on resilience.

He said, look how smash out a book for mark and Mike so that they can have an appropriate ending to the series. Man? Yeah, it's perfect. He's obviously a moonshot listeners, much like everybody. Listening in from home, he's just began a brand new series, which is digging into the virtues of ancient philosophy.

And that first book courage, his calling is a perfect bookend Mike for you and I and our listeners, as we reflect on what it means to be resilient in our day and age and how we can cultivate practices, behaviors. As well as [00:02:00] mindsets that help you and I, and all of our listeners go out and not only be that little bit more resilient, but also as we'll discuss today and hear from Mr.

Ron holiday, what it means to be courageous. And I think Mike, there's a number of different. Descriptions and terminologies that all of us might carry as we reflect on the idea of courage. And I think what's going to be great. As we dig into the concept today, we can understand what it means to demonstrate and behave in a way that is courageous in all of our lives, whether it's work home or play.

Yeah. I think we've been. Wrestling with courage and its different flavors being brave overcoming your fears. I think we've been doing this. As humankind from day one, it's really interesting in this book. Courage is calling Ryan holiday (purchase on Amazon) basically makes the case [00:03:00] that most philosophies and religions come back to a central idea of the moment.

The heated phrase in the Bible is be not afraid. Isn't that crazy mark? That it actually is a fascinating little bit of a as fascinating statistic. Isn't it? Because I think what all of these ancient tomes, ancient pieces of philosophy and religion and literary, as you say, it all reminds us that it's totally natural.

To feel a bit afraid and to have a little bit of fear. And I think what Ryan holiday, and without giving away everything within the first five minutes, I think what he's going to reveal to you and I, and our listeners Mike, is that it's okay to feel fair, but at the end of the day, you can control how you react to it.

Totally. And that has been a big part of the resilience series. And I would say market's been a huge part of the moonshots podcast, which is you might not control [00:04:00] everything in the world, but you certainly control how you respond to them and courage. Oh my gosh. It is a big one. So we have an action packed show ahead of all of us where we going to learn out loud together, where we're going to get into not only the, the mind.

Of courage and how we do it and how we can apply it as a daily habit. So with no further ado, mark, I am going to launch us into the author himself, Ryan holiday, talking about the Genesis of this book, but also the context of why courage really matters. I think for almost all of human history, courage has existed as a virtue because.

We wouldn't have survived as a species without courage. You could say wisdom or justice or temperance. These are, I don't want to say Modern problems, but [00:05:00] they matter less primally than just can you be brave under pressure under threat, whether it's from a wooly mammoth or an attacking tribe or something like that.

 When you study the history of current. For most of human history, encouragement, like physical courage, like courage under fire. And it's only somewhat recently last few thousand years that we also had this better understanding of moral courage. What one does under pressure under the threat of a tyrant that pursuing of truth or of one's own sort of way of living or being true to oneself.

So there, there are the sort of two component. To courage, there's physical courage, moral courage, but as I studied the literature and I decided what direction I wanted to take the book and what really struck me is two things with those two types of courage have in common is that it's about putting your [00:06:00] ass on the line in some way.

 And I think there is no such thing as a good life if you don't put your ass on the line. So I think a person who never risks it, who never puts themselves out there. Even if they're comforter, even if they're comforted, sorry. Even if they're comfortable, even if all of their needs are taken care of the end of the day, they probably have some nagging sense that more was possible.

So even in that sense, cowardice sort of dogs, as there's an expression of cowards, nothing is written because they don't do anything that's notable or memorable. It's hard to put yourself out there, but. On the other side of that risk is like that stuff. Mike, what an introduction to courage from Ron holiday, who arguably both in all of his books, as well as today's episode encourages calling he's gone and done the hard work hasn't he's dug into [00:07:00] history and he's calling out and breaking down courage for us.

It listening to that. I want to call out the nagging feeling when you haven't been brave when you shunned the light when you've no, you should've done something. Have you ever had that feeling? I've had it a lot. Yeah. Where you think, oh, if only I'd noticed this or if only I noticed it, but I didn't act upon it if only I'd done something.

Yeah. Those moments when you are. Oh, my God, like someone should do something and then you don't do it well. And I think what you're touching upon is what Ryan holiday calls out in that clip as well, which is courage. Isn't just a physical element, whether you're battling a wooly mammoth, fighting a tribe, or maybe jumping out of an aircraft, as some kind of adventure holiday, but [00:08:00] courage is a mental or moralistic. Behavior and action as well. And I think that's quite a an important distinction or perhaps it's an important connection for us as we consider how we go about our work and noticing as he calls out tyrants. And so if we can remember and notice our own minds as being courageous and we just putting into practice, then we can demonstrate it both physically as well as mentally.

Yeah. And I think I'm still dwelling on the argument itself for being courageous. And I love that thought that he shared of cowards, nothing he's written that really cuts doesn't it? It does. And I quite like this idea of if you, and we're going to revisit it today in today's show later on as well, but the [00:09:00] idea of putting yourself out there.

And giving it a go, we'll define you. You might have a lasting impact on maybe the world or those around you, but without putting it into practice and without risking it, you'll never know whether you can do it or not. Yeah. This is really big and really does set up a great show. I think though, one thing we should do Markish we should call out the fact that we've actually Done for other shows on Ryan holiday.

This is the fifth Ryan holiday show. We like the Ryan holiday cheer club. He goes to the ancients and gives them a big rework, a remix and brings them in hurdling into our contemporary world of the four shows we've done. Mark, which ones really stand out for you. So he's written 11 in [00:10:00] total.

So courage is calling his 11th book and the ones that you and I have dug into Mike and our listeners for those listening, who would like to go and revisit we've covered the daily stoic ego is the enemy. The obstacle is the way and stillness is the key. And. Each of those paired with today's show and courage is calling I think a perfect, not only introductions, but deep dives into the idea of stoicism and how we can cultivate more patients, more opportunities within our lives.

And the one that stood out most to me, Mike was show 112. Ego is the enemy, right? And the reason why I've out so much is because I believe that the crux of courage of seeing challenges as opportunities really falls into your mindset and your ego. And fundamentally for me, Mike, I've run into times where my [00:11:00] ego is the real book.

And me being able to, whether it's deliver something or maybe it's even admit something that's a pretty big challenge. Run into a few times where you go, we'll try and define my reaction to things. And I would think also a couple of other cross-references here that are totally moon shotty. I would definitely say Brenae brown.

Daring greatly was another take on courage that was insanely popular with our listeners. I think she touches on some similar subjects here. So if you are interested In this topic, if you want to explore it more and give yourself a bit of a turbocharge on the brave side of things, daring greatly by Brene brown, just head over to moonshot study.

You'll find that we did a big dive on that. I also think that from some other people that we've [00:12:00] studied, I would definitely say courage to do the right thing. I think about Simon Sinek great leaders eat last. I think about Richard Branson was another person. Who was very brave.

 He overcame dyslexia and has gone on to do so many amazing things. I think appy one back was another very courageous one. Again, we've done a show on her episode. One, three to see mark. I do remember some things. So I think there's so much here and how exciting that people from all these different walks of life.

All have shown us that carriage is key. If you want to go for a moonshot, if you want to be the best version of yourself, do something that matters. This is a very necessary element, but I'll tell you what, there's a bunch of people. Mark. Who've been very brave themselves. And I would say that it is only appropriate that we call out and do it.

Do a little bit of [00:13:00] I would say. To a bit of a roll call on the people that have really. Jumped in and shown some real courage to support you and I, and to help us produce this show. We have an ever growing list of members. I think they all deserve a little bit of a call out and we've had a brand new member come in this morning, which is very exciting.

So mark. Why don't you take us through it? Give us a bit of a roll call. Call out for all those great members. The moonshots member roll call begins. Now class is in session and I'd like to welcome Bob Niles, John and Terry Brighty, nail Sandy marshaling, Ken Dietmar, Tom Byron, as well as mark and Helen.

Welcome moonshots members. You guys are the reason we get up and get out and dig into all of these [00:14:00] amazing books, authors, entrepreneurs, and mental models every week. Thank you for being part of the moonshots team with. Yeah. And when you're a member of the moonshots podcast, you get exclusive access to our masters series, which is where we turn our whole format upside down.

And we do a deep dive on a topic and we gathered the best superstars heroes, authors, people that inspire us to collect. Masterclass and we've done first principles, motivation. We've done teamwork. And the next one that we're recording next week. Mark, do you remember what that is? Yeah, it's all about habits, which Mike, I think comes into a lot of the individual members and authors that we run into in our weekly show as well, habits.

Patterns and behaviors that we can cultivate in order to make our day-to-day lives very strong and powerful. We can put [00:15:00] resilience and leadership into practice. So habits there, the episode on habits that we're going to be recording releasing is going to be a pretty huge one. I'd say a comprehensive look at what it means to try and not only identify, but also practice habits daily.

Oh, so good. So if you want to become a member, it is absolutely guaranteed. What do we call it? A lunar dosed, Luna powered dose of good karma for you. It helps us produce the show, pay the bills for all the hosting and all the services we need to pull this together. And hopefully if we've got some some more members, we can finally finish off our moonshots mobile app, which we are dying to release, but we need to.

Hire some people to help us finish this off. So come on guys, jumble become a member of moonshots head of dementia.io. And as you're doing that, why don't we prime you with [00:16:00] something? Why don't we get you going from the author of the moment Mr. Ryan holiday? He's just written, the courage is calling.

It's all about bravery. It's all about stepping into the arena. Where does that begin? It begins with the act of not worrying about the opinions. Of others. Most people are afraid of death, but the funny thing is most people are afraid of public speaking, even more than death. Jerry Seinfeld jokes that at a funeral, most people would rather be in the casket than giving the eulogy.

I think that's because we're afraid of what people think that deep down. Beneath all of the fears that we have. It's what will other people think of me? That's why we don't like doing things in public. That's why we don't like getting up in front of a crowd. That's why we don't like speaking up. We're worried what other people are gonna think.

And we're usually worried that what they're going to think is something negative about us for X releases. It's crazy. We love ourselves more than other people, but for [00:17:00] some reason we care about other people more than our own. There's nothing important you're going to do in this life that does not involve doing it.

It's not going to involve making mistakes in public. If you're afraid of what other people think. If what you mostly care about is what other people think I got bad news for you. You're never going to do anything important. You're never going to matter. You're never going to get over. What's holding you back and that's a real shame.

Courage. You need courage to get up in front of the audience, to speak up, to put yourself out there, to not care. What other people think don't be afraid of what others think of you, Mike. And instead work on prioritizing yourself. This is a pretty. Pretty perhaps challenging behavior. Sometimes it's hard.

 Myself included is quite difficult to sometimes step away from. Worrying or focusing on what others think of you and whether it's a zoom call or whether it's a face-to-face big presentation or maybe it's a keynote speech. It's going to be something that probably [00:18:00] plays in the minds of us as well as a lot of our listeners don't know.

Boy, I when he was listing some of those things, like how people, the fear people have of public speaking how people hate giving the eulogies and so forth. Is it come on, let's be honest. We all have had this feeling, we've all had these moments where we're just dreading stuffing up in front of other people or not getting it right.

And I think this is great advice, but man, it's hard to do. And I think we need to challenge ourselves a little bit here. Like how do we how do we get on the other side of this and put it into action because You me and 40,000 other people are having this conversation together right now.

But I think [00:19:00] 39,995 of our listeners all have some sort of dread of public speaking, which is totally relatable. So here's the thing. What's some of the things that we can do, let's imagine you and I get a step on the stage, give a big speech. Like, where do we go? Where do we start in a process of not worrying about what others think and going forward?

I think what helps me, Mike, and I think one of the big lessons that, that we can explore and try and put into practice when you're preparing for this type of event is to really focus on the current. Focused on the information that you're bringing to the table. So remove the the fear of sitting or standing in front of 10 or a hundred or a thousand people.

And they said just really focused on, okay what is the thing that I'm trying to convey? What's the message. What's the piece of content or the [00:20:00] lessons that I'm trying to impart. And really, I think crack that as a sort of step. Yeah, that's a good one. It's like the way I process that is if you're giving a speech or voicing maybe a controversial idea within your team, cause maybe they're not having that conversation.

I think it's very good. A starting point to say, Hey, this is, these are facts. That needs to be aired, or I have a message that could really help others. So that's where I'm going to get the conviction. It matters that I tell this story that I raise an objection or give a speech. I think the other thing is.

Don't worry too much about what others think, because Hey, most people are thinking about themselves and not about you. I think that's a topic that's come up before in the show. And we've talked a lot about when you want to do something, courageous, something [00:21:00] brave practice. Rehearse be prepared.

And that's the moment where you shift from fear to excitement. So you'll notice in great speakers and great athletes is you can see the excitement that they have. And certainly you can see athletes on the S on the court who are not ready because you see the fear in their eyes. Yeah. If you haven't put in the practice I'm reminded of the Michael Jordan episode, Mike, where he'd come in and be one of the greatest players, because he'd put in the hard yards, put in the effort in advance of a particularly important game so that when he steps onto that court, he has the confidence that comes with practice.

 I think that, that kind of idea of practice and preparation, we heard that with Eric Greitens, we're hearing that [00:22:00] again, not only now, but later in the show for Brian holiday. And I think more than anything, if you giving voice. To an idea, to a notion that can truly help others or you're airing a conversation or an issue that others are not courageous enough to raise, but it is upon your shoulders.

Always remember the purpose behind what you're doing as a way to propel you. This must be told, this must be said, I must do this brave act because it is. In my humble opinion, the right thing to do. I think that's like the essential logic, almost the first principles. Doesn't always go back. Am I doing the right thing?

And don't allow yourself to be tricked out of, maybe it's not the right thing, go to your first principles. Is this a good thing? If so, be brave and go forward and Who really cares, if it is in [00:23:00] fact the right thing to do and not everybody appreciates it well, so what and I think this is where Ryan holiday has ideas that can help us to, once we've got on the stage, there's some thinking that still to be done here, isn't it?

Yeah, that's right. And I think this idea of letting go of those worries there's opinions of others really. It has a foundation within the acceptance that sometimes you're going to maybe trip up, maybe you're going to make mistakes or even dare. I might fail. And therefore, and what we're on holiday is going to talk to us in this next clip about Mike is actually learning from that experience.

So this next clip we've got is Ron holiday reassuring us and telling us that it's okay to look for. You have to be willing to look stupid. That's what Epictetus says. He says, if you wish to improve, you must be willing to look clueless or stupid about some things. I think that means when you have to be willing to ask dumb questions.

If you D if you don't ask, you can't learn. If you're afraid [00:24:00] of what other people think, you'll never learn what. But I think the other part is you have to be willing to not care about stuff, to be like, I don't care about that. I'm not following that. I'm out of touch about that. That's one part then I think the other part is you have to be willing to be bad at stuff, to be at the beginner stages, to be embarrassingly, figuring it out to be mediocre, to be in the process of rediscovering or changing or growing. So if you want to improve the Stokes that you have to be willing to look stupid, to look embarrassing. I be ridiculous to not be good because that's how you get from where you are to where you want to go.

Asking silly, stupid, or what might appear to others to be obvious questions. I think that's really important because I think a lot of the time, mark, do you ever feeling when you're in meetings sometimes where people are not totally following, [00:25:00] but they don't ask any clarification questions? Yeah I do.

And I think it's a little bit concerning particularly now. When it's a little bit harder to capture the attention of everybody when you're perhaps doing virtual meetings. So judging comprehension and engagement of these of the other people is sometimes a bit of a challenge. Mike, what I am really thankful for is when one of those individuals.

We'll raise a question and say, Hey look guys, I'm sorry if I sound a little bit stupid. I just want to ask a question which might seem really dumb, but just for my own benefit, what is X, what does X mean? And actually what I think you find. If you were to be really honest with yourself and ask around, and the rest of the call, probably a large percentage were also thinking the same question, but maybe you didn't have the courage to raise that.

So isn't it remarkable that we've probably all done this ourselves, [00:26:00] but we all participate in meetings regularly where we get the sense that maybe not everyone's totally got it, but because. People not wanting to look dumb or they're worried about what others will say. If they ask the question, they prefer, they choose their ignorance over being informed because of this whole ego thing.

 Isn't that remarkable that you choose to be naive or ignorant rather than maybe risk looking a bit silly? It seems so. So easy to grasp when you're not in that situation. It doesn't it. I know, but it's funny because when I'm, and I want to call out what Ryan holiday said towards the end of that clip, the idea of admitting that you're in the process or the progress of learning and figuring it out, if you can accept that.

And if you can go into that, Oh that cool. Or even you're beginning a new journey. Maybe you're learning a new skill. Maybe you're doing a [00:27:00] course and you can admit to yourself, Hey I'm figuring out what courage is to me. And you can put yourself into that. Process of admitting that you're learning and that you're at the beginning process.

I actually think that's quite freeing. And if anything, if I'm honest with myself and say, you know what, I am not an expert in this particular type of product. So I'm going to be relying on my team to make good recommendations. If I've got a question, I'm going to ask them permission to ask a silly question.

It's actually quite a relief for me when I. In that situation and I can admit to myself, Hey, it's okay. You're learning still. It'll get better over time. It's quite freeing. Yeah. It's it's really, it's again. Remember this what Ryan holiday said at the beginning of cowards, nothing is written.

So if you just need that extra light, I'm going to raise my hand, but I'm scared to like, just remember [00:28:00] like those who go through life, not asking the questions rarely will something be written off them. What? That's so important. Yeah, it really is. And I want to build on both of those clips, Michael, that we've just heard because I think.

Holds a lot of people back again, is this idea of worrying about the opinions of others. And what I personally am quite guilty of is allowing those concerns and those concepts of looking foolish to spiral out of control. And then suddenly you're almost into an analysis of, sorry, what's the word?

 Paralysis. Comes from, oh, I'm afraid of this. I don't want to say this out loud or what am I going to do now? And the process. That you were touching upon a minute ago with practicing, with admitting to yourself that you're still learning to raise a hand, raise a question are ways of combating that innate anxiety or concern or fear that comes [00:29:00] with being in a situation that perhaps you're brand new in.

And if you can almost. Remove the internal monologue and you've just, you've hit the nail on the head. My ego that kind of takes over a little bit and stops you. Being able to progress. You can work on quietening, Vago, and therefore allow yourself to look a little bit foolish and to not worry too much about the opinions of others that I think is where courage can be something that you do cultivate every.

I agree. I agree. And I think it's like the simple things that let's use the classic setup that we've been discussing. There's a meeting. There's a topic being discussed and your not understanding they're jumping around, or there seems to be some assumptions. You don't have all the context.

My favorite thing is Hey, Wait a second here, please. Help me understand. Can you go [00:30:00] back a step and explain this again? Because I really want to understand this. It's exciting. It looks like it could be really good, but I'm not quite following some of this. Could you just help me understand? And so this is a way that changes it from saying you're not making any sense, your stupid re-explain it.

But on the other side, what you do is you change it from like me stupid me. No understand. You're saying, Hey. Help me understand the sounds really interesting, but I need more information. I don't want to leap to conclusions. I don't want to be doing any wishful thinking. I really want to go through step by step inch by inch to understand what you're saying, because I think it could be really powerful.

All of a sudden that's not like a confession. Naivety or ignorance. You're actually turning it into a little bit of a compliment, but it matters so much. I want to make sure I understand what you're saying. And that's a technique that I've had often [00:31:00] where it might help me understand this could be good, but before we jump too far, let's just make sure that I understand the basics that you're talking about here.

I think that can be a really good way of. No avoiding this. If you have that concern of looking a bit silly in a meeting, try to help me understand technique. That's a good one. And I think again, similar to the 39,995 listeners who might be sitting there thinking, oh yeah. Sometimes I don't want to raise a hand.

Cause I'm worried about that. I think what I think we'll find is there are so many who will be thankful. I have gratitude for you raising those questions. So by saying, Hey, can we just take a step back for a second? What do you mean by this? There's probably a handful of others in that session who were wondering the same thing.

So suddenly you are providing almost a service to those individuals and everybody feels more confident after. Yeah, totally. And I'll tell you who else. Mark has been raising their hand. It's our [00:32:00] members. There's been a whole bunch of things happening out there. And I think Mike, we want to give a special shout out to two of our members, both mark and Byron.

Who've been giving us lots of great suggestions. Yeah, that's right, mark and Byron, you guys are our MVPs this week. We've been getting lots and lots of messages from you, both on Patrion, as active members for the moonshot show. Thank you so much. You have the ability to get in touch with us and we always make sure to respond as quickly as we can to all of you guys a special call out for mark.

Mike obviously I prefer as our members, cause he shares a terrific name in Australia. The name of mark is a pretty good one. Mark is listening to us all the way from the middle of the ocean, near the Gibraltar, straight near the Swiss canal. Oh my gosh. Isn't that wonderful. And as he's out there, pioneering the seat.

To know that we're keeping [00:33:00] him company is really cool. So a big shout out to him for his feedback. And Byron has been awesome. Byron's been giving us a ton of suggestions on format, how we can really. It's so welcome for us to hear from you, our members. So we understand like what works how can we improve the show?

 Anything that, that you want, tell us, so really want to say, thank you for this. Really want to encourage all of you, tell us who you, who do you want us to cover? Mark was saying like, how can he connect to other moonshot members? That was really awesome. I just want to say thank you to all of our members and to all of you.

Who've yet to become a member join us, be part of the conversation, help us build this, help us learn out loud. And I'm sure if we're all learning out loud together, we've got much better chance of being [00:34:00] the very best. Version of ourselves. And so I just want to say a big thank you and make sure that you know that we are loving your messages.

We're answering your messages. And for those of you who want to send us to manage message, jump into the members, section, become a member. Tell us what's on your mind. Give us your associate show suggestions. We have tons of future shows on the list. If you just go to moonshots.io, you'll see. About midway down through the page, there is a future shows link, and you can see every single suggestion that you make goes on to that list.

So be sure to send us your suggestions. Mark. We're through this first half, we've established the need for carriage, wherever establish that it's, that bloody ego thing always jumps in the way and prevents us from being the best version of ourselves. But now we get to the business end of things.

This is how we work out, how to do [00:35:00] this thing called courage and mark, tell us, where do you want to start this application? This habit building around character. With courage comes the ability to be empowered and to own your reaction and to know when to fight for something or when to take a pause, a beat and reflect.

And this next method, this behavior around holiday is going to call out from his book. Courage. His calling is all about being desperate. Courage. Isn't always charging ahead. Sometimes it's retreating. Sometimes it's knowing when you're beaten. There's a story about Socrates . One of his students has the bravest thing he's ever seen is the way Socrates retreated in a battle, not running headlong.

Broken not terrified, but with discipline and how Socrates's discipline and self-control inspires the other soldiers around them to gather themselves up to not be scared to retreat in an orderly fashion. So when we save it [00:36:00] courage is calling. It's not always to do the brave. Obvious things sometimes it's to back up sometimes it's to live, to fight another day, sometimes it's to strategically regroup sometimes it's to tactically beat a retreat.

So it's not always charging ahead. Courage can mean a lot of different things. And if you think it's only charging ahead, you're probably not being courageous. You're actually being reckless. Yeah, I it's, I think it's easy to misconstrue courage into being this hundred percent, fifth gear charge, like crazy into like your have your Braveheart moments.

Isn't it? Merck. Yeah, I totally agree. I think for some of us, including myself, actually, Mike, the idea of character. It has always been ongoing out. I'm maybe fighting until I can't fight any more. I'm risking everything. I'm putting it all on the line and it's all about action. A [00:37:00] propensity towards action.

And I think what's great with Ronald holiday. As he's reflecting on engine history is. One of the greatest forms of courage is having self-control and self-discipline in order to control how you react to things, whether you need to run into it headfirst or whether it's time to, to retreat and know when you've perhaps lost.

Yeah. And there's a certain level of self-awareness and making sure that you are. Understanding the call to courage is being some over adrenalized charge into the storm. But rather it's more discreet. It's more self aware and I think that's really important because I think we have quite a hype culture that surrounds us where it's so [00:38:00] trying to be the biggest, the baddest, the fastest, and sometimes it's knowing when, Hey, the courageous thing is to admit defeat, to go back to reboot and return when you're ready.

And that's a fine line as well. Cause sometimes we don't want to push through the pain, but there are other times when we have to like, We were beat, it's time to make a very elegant and controlled retreat here and we'll come back another time. And in the fog of war, it can be hard to have that level of prudence cannon.

Yeah. And I think what's important as we consider the idea of retreat, as well as Ryan calls it is it's a moment. It's an opportunity to. Recalibrate having the courage to admit to yourself, actually, you know what, I'm not quite ready to jump into this, whatever this is, it might be [00:39:00] I don't know, a new job or having a difficult discussion or going into a meeting and making a recommendation to have the courage and say, actually, you know what?

I think we, as a team need to reconsider this, we're ready to go in, or we need to. Come up with a plan B and determine how else we might be able to solve this. How many have the courage to say, you know what let's do. I assume that we are correct here and instead just have a moment to recalibrate relook at things, double cross those T's and I's and then come back.

We might actually be able to deliver something that's even better because you've had the courage to pause for a second. Yes. The next side of this habit of courage. And remember that Ryan holiday is telling us very clearly, you got to work on this thing. This is not once at the beginning of the new year, I think is at the beginning of every day.

And he has [00:40:00] some really good questions that go to the heart of the matter. So when you're in the moment, And that courage is calling and you're not sure if you're going to answer the call. Here are two questions. Two thoughts from the author himself, Brian holiday in his book. Courage is calling.

Hello is famous. Question was if not me then who? And then he said, if not now than when I think this is a really important stoke question, and this is why you see the Stoics stepping up in moments of crisis in difficulty throughout the history of stoicism, because. They knew that if they didn't do it if keto had simply rolled over, then no one would have stood up.

If Marcus really has had declined being the emperor, because what he really wanted to do is be a philosopher and who would have taken his place. I think even Seneca realizes this in neuro service. He [00:41:00] says, if I don't do this, someone else worse will do it. And I think this is just such a key question. If you're not going to do it, who's going to do it.

And if everyone backed out, if no one stepped up. Where would that leave us? That's the idea in the new book, courage is calling. If not you then who, and if not now, then when, if everyone backed out what's left. I think this is a great almost mantra. Isn't it? It's very conflict as it's very it's a harsh reminder when you want to try and back out of something that you've got.

And put yourself onto the you've got to look yourself in the mirror. Okay. It's not going to be me, who else is going to do it? And that can be quite confronting concept. Yeah. And if not now, when two big stinky Nali that makes you like Regal with discomfort, because when you're in those moments, [00:42:00] where you're like, oh gosh, If not, if I'm not going to stand up now and be courageous, when am I going to do it? Like you can't keep kicking the can down the lane. And next thing you know, if it's not now, when, if it's not me, then who I exactly, there are moments in all of our lives where we. I need to stand up and those questions might be just the thing to nudge you when you're when you're being a bit reluctant.

So mark let's think of some situations or examples that we might just encounter during our day where we might be well a thought of, if we actually asked those two questions, we might put ourselves in a better position. What are some practical moments that we might be wise to use those questions?

Yeah, it does. If the [00:43:00] questions are, if not me, then who, if not now than when I have a feeling that a very practical example, Mike, for me is if I'm considering taking a course or a program, perhaps it's online, perhaps is face to face. Or perhaps it's learning some new skill. Maybe it's a language, whatever it might be without having the conviction or the courage to say, okay I'm going to begin it today.

What happens? Like you say, you kick the can down the road. And if I was going to be really harsh on myself and if I was going to open up my journal and have a look, I probably have a number of. Promises or actions that I've been kicking down the cat and the cat kicking down the road for too long, because I keep on putting it off.

Yeah. And the thing is something I took out a Tim Ferriss's book, the four hour work week is don't defer life. If you've had a dream of taking an art class, take. [00:44:00] Ask yourself the question, if not now, when, because the funny thing is we say, oh, I'm too busy now, but you know what mark, next week, what are we going to say?

You're going to be busy as well. So if not now, when it's a very it's a really challenging one. But let's say someone. Has really been under-recognized in the team and you often have this author, oh, poor old bill or a poor old Jane. They don't get enough. Kudos for their contribution.

Don't get enough recognition. Sometimes we have that thought often over weeks, sometimes months and. Nobody else is calling attention to it. So what's the question we should ask mark. If not me then who, if not now, then when. Yeah. And it's when you see something that [00:45:00] might not be right or it might be unfair or just something that needs to be corrected.

If you keep letting it pass, then if it's not you, then who's gonna, who's going to stand up for this. Very powerful. Isn't it very powerful. And I think Mike, for those younger members of the moonshot listeners, you could even say something as simple as maybe even asking someone out on a date.

Oh that's another situation where again when I was a kid or maybe just a little bit younger, it's something that I would always push to tomorrow. Again, I like the Tim Ferriss. Call-out actually, that's a great one. If you're into for life, you're just pushing it further and further into the future.

And you have no idea what amazing products or amazing situations or experiences you could create unless you take. Courage today [00:46:00] into action and go and ask or celebrate or sign up for something. Totally agree. Totally agree. And who's signing up for things, our members, and I think we have to really give a shout out not only to our members, but some folks who've been sharing the moonshots love helping others be the best version of themselves.

I thought this was really cool, mark. Very recently there was a website. That is just for librarians. Yeah. Discovering the remarkable.com and they published an article best podcast for school librarians. And who's in there. Who's in the list. Mark who made the top 10, but a moonshot podcast learning out loud.

There you go. And favorite podcasts for school librarians. Thank you so much. [00:47:00] Discovering the remarkable.com for listening. What, how humbling is that? Yeah, that's awesome. And if anyone knows books and good reviews of books, that's gotta be those librarians, that's right. Exactly. Any recommendations you guys have four books that we should dig into next time, please get into.

Yeah. And we've got to give a tip of the hat to Felipe based in Europe. Who's been sharing his kind of keys to mental health. And we were number one on the list on his very popular LinkedIn post. Very appreciated. Again, these hacks and these suggestions, Felipe. For having better or mental health balance in your day, whether it's enjoying the silence, whether it's listening to music or whether it's learning and growing via the podcasts with the moonshots podcast, it's amazing feat.

And we're so pleased to see. Everybody listeners from all around the world, Mike, [00:48:00] going out into this lifelong learning approach and listening to these experts that you and I are digging into each week. This week with Ryan holiday, it's really an amazing experience. Isn't it? And also a big shout out to Bettina who as always is sharing with.

 Friends or colleagues all the learnings that she has from our show here on the moonshots podcast. So thumbs up fist pump elbow tap. I don't know w what's COVID correct these days, but we're sending out good vibes to Phillipe and Tina. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And if you want to be part of this learning out loud, this chance to be the best version of yourself, head over to moonshots.io, become a member, and you can send us all your.

Too, but it would only be appropriate to end this show on good vibes, mark. So how do we want to wrap it up with Mr. Ryan holiday? I want Mr. Ron holiday to help bookend these [00:49:00] approaches our mindset on behaviors by telling you and I, and our listeners on how to make courage habits. So let's hear from Ron holiday, one more time telling us to do courageous things.

One of the things you realize when you do something scary or big, when you come out of the other side of it is you realize that you didn't actually need to be so scared. I remember when I was dropping out of college, I thought if this doesn't work out, my life is over. Then I did it and I realized, oh man, I could've gone back to school at any time.

This didn't matter at all. So one of the ways to be more courageous is to do courageous things. And actually Aristotle says this. He says a builder builds things and that's how you become a builder to become courageous and brave. Yeah. Courageous things who made courage, a habit, you take the risks, you force yourself to speak up, to say what you think to do, what other people are afraid to do.

And then this is how in the big moments, in the moments that it really matters, you're able to step forward because it's part of your nature. It's become who you [00:50:00] are. It's the default that you have. So the idea is that courage is calling. It's always there. The question is, are you brave enough to answer you brave?

To answer. Can you make it a daily habit? I think the key thing here is remember, there's so many people around us who have created. I have performed like enormous acts of courage. Think about a Harriet Tubman who freed slaves from the south in the U S she had her underground railroad Rosa parks, who didn't give up her bus seat and created a whole sea change.

Martin Luther king and Frank the list just goes on Edmund, Hillary calming Everest to raise her. It can be done. We can all do amazing things in, perhaps it starts with those small acts, right? Maybe go volunteer for something, maybe stand up for something that's not fair in the workplace. [00:51:00] Maybe get up in front of a large audience and share something that you think could help them.

Something you believe in something that could transform their lives, make it a daily. You cannot find courage in that big moment. If you haven't done the practice, you will never win the Superbowl. If you haven't. The training. This is get out there and just do it, isn't it. And once you get into that situation, once you've living on that stage, making that keynote presentation, or whether you're standing up for something you believe in, you'll realize that moment that you didn't need to be scared.

Because it's all going to be all right, because you've now put it into action, put into the process of behavior. And like you say, Mike practicing and each day, maybe it's just today going out and doing something by yourself for the first time. Maybe you're going to take a different route to work. Maybe you're going to ask for a different [00:52:00] type of coffee in your coffee shop.

Maybe you going to do something that doesn't even frighten you, but just mixing it up and doing something different. And the courage to try. Something new is all part of a very small benefits that you can do each and every day. That ladder up into a significant amount of courage in the long run.

Yeah. It's funny though. When we break down some of these great books, you're like, wow, I got to do all these things. And then you're like, wow, there's a lot of things I got to do to be the best version of myself. It's every part of this kind of. Each of the four parts of this series feels okay, I got to do this and this.

 But I don't mind that. We're the recipe for being better today is right in front of us. Every time we do the show, isn't it. There's always. New things that you can adopt as behaviors, new mental models, [00:53:00] new philosophies, about being the best version of self. How cool is that?

 I want to share something with the listeners that you shared with me before the show, Mike, which is, if you think about yourself as a. And how you want to get better or improve your product in maybe it's in a marketing space or maybe it's just something at home that you're gradually upgrading.

Maybe it's your computer. Maybe it's your software on your iPhone, whatever it might be. Iterative improvements, ladder up to big changes. Don't they find yourself as a product that you're trying to improve through journaling through gratitude, through meditation, through practices and habits. All of those.

Elements that you can put into practice each day of reminders that are in the long run, you will be so much better off because of it. And I think what's really interesting and fun for myself. Having done so many shows with you and sharing all these different lessons with our listeners [00:54:00] is that we can take.

These elements from every single show. And if we can compartmentalize and put them into practice in our lives think how much braver, courageous, how much more resilience we can be just from the last four shows in the resiliency rates. I know. And have all the thoughts today, which one has stood above all others?

 I must've been. All of them have been pretty powerful to me and all of them are good reminders as well as reassurances that I can achieve a level of courage if I just begin today, but really it's the classic question, mark. Mike, it's the, if not now, then when, if not me than who I think I w total agreement, usually we have different things that speak to us, but in this case, man, Returning to these questions has been [00:55:00] energizing.

 Very good stuff. Mark, thank you. Thank you for joining me on this adventure. Not only today, but for the last four shows our resilience series. I hope you, and all of our listeners have truly enjoyed it. And to you, our listeners, thank you to the moon shutters. We appreciate your contributions.

We appreciate your membership. We appreciate that. We are all here learning out loud together to be the very best version of ourselves. And today something was calling us. Ryan holiday's brand new book, courage is calling and he laid a very solid foundation. He said it is essential. It is almost this most primary of virtues.

And to start that journey of being more courageous, we need to stop worrying about the opinion of others and be totally okay with looking foolish. And if we've got those as starting points, we can then know. When our discipline [00:56:00] needs to be applied when we need to retreat and fight another day. And if you ask yourself in the heat of the battle, these two most important questions, when the courage comes calling, ask yourself, if not me, then who, if not now, then when answer those questions and you will be able to do courageous things, not just once, but every single day.

And that's the show will help you be the very. As you can be. And that's what we're all about here at the moonshots podcast, that syrup.