Carol S. Dweck: Mindset, The New Psychology of Success

episode 145

SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Hello and welcome to the moonshots podcast. It's episode 145. I'm your co-host Mike Parsons. And as always, I'm joined by mark mind-set Pearson Freeland. Good morning, mark. Hey, good morning, Mike. If I'm mark mindset, you must be Mike growth mindset Parsons, because today we're digging back into an absolute favorite of ours.

Aren't we? Yeah. In fact, I think we've officially termed this a listener favorite up there with David Gergen. I might add that's right, listeners. Thank you for continuing to demonstrate the power of this particular book for us. It was huge and it's so pleasing to see such the value that it's providing for you guys today, Mike and show 145.

We're digging into character. Mindset, the new psychology of success (available on Amazon), which as you remember, Mike is all about growth mindset. It is. And it's something that ties together a very unusual cast of [00:01:00] people. Let me pitch you this mark, Steve jobs, Walt Disney, Einstein, Oprah, Michael Jordan, the Beatles. What is the one concept that brings them all together?

 Sure. I had all of their posters on my wall when I was growing up, Mike, is that what it connects them up? I think he needed to go a little deeper into your mind. I think it all comes down to experiences that decided where they would go in their life, a failure that then enabled them to demonstrate their own growth mindset.

Yeah. So here it is, these people achieved great things, but it's not as elegant and as easy as you might think. In fact, it is through failing and learning from that failure, getting over yourself that they all achieved. Great things. Check this out. My Disney got fired from a newspaper fellow lacking imagination of all people.

Now, can you believe it? That is nuts. Isn't it? [00:02:00] Absolutely stuff in there is. Absolutely not, no. How about this one? Oprah. She was demoted because from her TV job, because they said she's not for television of all people, Oprah, check that out. Disney, no imagination, Oprah not good for tele. What is that preview, if you ha, if you have a ma, if you have a growth mindset, mark, what do you think this means?

Just demonstrates the failures or the things that people are getting pushed back by or held back by are not what defined them. Disney is one of the most original thinking creators out there we're still enjoying the films from the brand of Disney every day and Oprah come on.

She is the queen of television. That is absolutely right. So I think inside of this, what is so great about the work of Carol Dweck and her book mindset (Buy on Amazon) is she wrote the book. Her [00:03:00] book really framed the success of people like we just talked about and she put it into a formula that we can recreate.

And she has some huge current day supporters, people such as Microsoft CEO, Satya Nadella. The point here is there's a formula and Mike, we really love digging into it. But before we play all the clips before we play the show upon reflection, Of the growth mindset, pillars, the key ideas, which really resonated the most with you after we recorded our first show.

I think the idea that my potential, my individual unique potential is not yet known to me nor to others. So if there's a challenge or an obstacle that I face, it doesn't necessarily mean I've reached the end of my ability to learn and grow. There's always something else out there. As long as I can challenge myself to go out and grow my what, what really stood out to you?[00:04:00] 

I think there's so much in, in a growth mindset. It's really hard to pick a favorite. I'm going to go with the fact that failing is such an important part of growth. This idea that the hand we're dealt is only a starting point. I love the fact that. If you're failing, then you're on the Lidl legitimate path to growth.

You're on the right track rather than what so many of us I think become hostage to is the dread of failure, the dread of mistakes, but actually a growth mindset means that you embrace those and ask yourself, what did I learn and how might I do a better next time? And you don't get so hung up on the mistake in the, and that terrible feeling.

I think it's very liberating. And in particularly if you have an, a bit of a rough moment, go back to Carol's work, go back to this idea of a growth mindset and said[00:05:00] this is good. If I'm failing, I'm obviously pushing myself, doing new things and I can make the most of it. It was very encouraging and empowering as a book.

And if anything, Mike, I might even say it was a relief. It was a relief to read these columns and mindsets and know that I'm in control of how I respond and react to them. Absolutely true. I think we are ready to rock and roll. I think it's time to unleash a growth mindset. So let's jumping researcher and professor Carol Dweck uses the term mindset to describe the way people think about ability and talent.

Do I delineate between two different mindsets that exist on a continuum? The first is the fixed mindset, which suggests that your abilities are innate and unchangeable. The second is a growth mindset, which views it as something you can improve [00:06:00] through practice in a fixed mindset. You view failure as permanent, but with a growth mindset, failure as a chance to learn and even pivot those with a fixed mindset are more likely to view critical feedback as a personal attack.

 Those with a growth mindset will see it as a chance to improve where they can develop new systems with a fixed mindset. You're more likely to choose easier tasks and put in minimal effort. After all of talent is fixed, why bother improving? I even tried, but with a growth mindset, you're more likely to embrace challenging tasks and work hard to improve those with a fixed mindset are likely to give up and they face an obstacle.

Meanwhile, those with a growth mindset, look you obstacles as a chance to experiment and solve problems in a fixed mindset. The focus is on measurable accomplishments, but with the [00:07:00] growth mindset, the focus is more on a journey of continual improvement. With a fixed mindset. You are less likely to take creative risks, but with a growth mindset, creative risks are simply a way to innovate and improve.

Ultimately your mindset influences everything from creative risk, taking to how you use feedback to whether or not you finish difficult tasks. And in the end, it's one of the greatest factors in determining whether or not you grow and improve in your abilities.

 Mindset mindset. It is something that is, that can propel you. And I what strikes me is there are so many great stories of people that have not just accepted things as they are. And it just is, and you know what, I'm not going to try. I'm not going to have a growth mindset.

What comes to mind are there [00:08:00] so many great stories? For example Michael Jordan was actually cut from his high school basketball. If you can believe that Oprah got fired as a, oh, she wasn't fired. She was demoted as an anchor on a television show and went on to be the greatest television host of all time, Jordan, the greatest basketball player of all time.

And all of us will remember Steve jobs actually got failed from fivehead from apple. If they didn't have the right mindset, that would have been the end of things. Wouldn't it? Yeah. That's, there's some great famous. Well-known household names, who've gone through arguably failure or a real struggle, and they could have turned around and given up.

But now we know them even more so perhaps because they actually excelled or got better because they went through that particular challenge. Totally. And it just sets up like such an [00:09:00] exciting world of possibilities. When you say to yourself, okay. I might not know how to do this. I might have failed this time, but like yakka willing said in our previous.

Problems are opportunities or Zahara. How did these failures make me stronger? And this is at the goes really to the essence of Carol Dweck's work mindset. This book, really for me, it opens up a world of infinite possibilities. It's such an abundant book because once you can truly see the world as something you can continuously learn and grow from, and that when you hit all the bumps along the way, you can just say, good.

Do you remember in the Jaco show, when you said someone comes to him and says look, we've really got a problem. And he be. Good. Yeah, that's a growth mindset, right? Can't get up. I've been [00:10:00] fired. Good. I've really hurt myself. Good. It's correct. So this doesn't this as soon as you say that, rather than, oh my God, I'm going to prompt them.

Oh, just the worst. I can't believe it. Like you can almost just as you flirt between that fixed and growth mindset, you can start to feel how empowering a growth mindset is and how it is a choice of hours and how, if you really embrace this, what's so exciting is we're going to learn today, how there is a real difference between talent and skills and the role that this plays in success.

But the best news of all for all of you listening, is that you can embrace this mindset. You can do it yourself, and we're going to show you how, but first I think Mike, it's time that we actually go to the author herself. Let's have a listen to Carol Dweck talking about how everyone can grow and it is within our grasp to fulfill our [00:11:00] potential.

All right, before we get into mindsets want you to share what we've learned from what is now the widely discredited theory of self-esteem and the self-esteem movement in the 1990s, the self-esteem movement took over the world. We were told to tell everyone how fabulous, brilliant, talented, special they were all the time.

This was going to motivate them and boost their achievement. Instead, as you said, it was a complete disaster, it was led to the acceptance of mediocrity. It didn't challenge people to fulfill their potential. And our search showed telling people they're smart, actually backfires. It makes them afraid of challenges.

It makes them a fold in the face of obstacles. Cause they're worried, oh, does this not look smart? Am I not smart? The whole [00:12:00] currency is built around smart. So what triggered your interest in going deeper and researching how people are motivated and learn and how did that lead to your definition of mindset?

I was always interested in why some people wilted in the face of failure shied away from challenge. When people who were no more talented or able or embracing challenges and thriving in the face of failure, ultimately this led to our discovery of the mindsets. And what we found was that some people believe their talents and abilities are just these fixed traits.

You have a certain amount and that's it. But other people believe talents and abilities can be developed through hard work, good strategies, good mentoring from others. Through years of work, we found that having a [00:13:00] fixed mindset led you to be afraid of challenges that might unmask your deficiencies made you withdraw and the face of difficulty, because you felt stupid.

You didn't want to feel stupid. And when other people think you were stupid, whereas having this growth mindset, the idea that your abilities could be developed. Made you think why waste my time looking smart when I can be getting smarter. And I do that through taking on challenges. I do that through seeing them through now growth mindset doesn't mean everyone's the same, that they don't different talent and abilities.

It just means everyone can grow. Oh, everyone can grow. I love the heat. Some people wilting in the face of failure. I think that's a really valuable build on what you were saying in that first clip mic around the famous or [00:14:00] well-known individuals who faced failure and actually came out of it stronger.

I think. Analogy applaud having failure could either die away or actually get stronger. I think that's a nice little connection that Carol made for us there as well. And what Carol's doing for us helpfully in that clip is really defining those two different mindsets for us. Mike fixed this idea of fear, withdrawal versus growth, which is all about development and taking on challenges.

 That's the key takeaway here. Isn't it. The key definitions that we need to bear in mind when we consider our mindsets. And as we consider choosing which one we want to follow and which one we want to celebrate or nurture. Yeah. Yeah. I think what's also important that she raises is that self-esteem movement said differently.

That's where every, everyone gets a medal. There are only [00:15:00] winners, no losers, but the true reality of life, the reason that self-esteem movement has really found so much is. Some key ideas that Carol touched upon one is like, why would you pretend to be great when you could be great, but why would you live in this falsehood?

But secondly then you almost live a lie where you say, oh, I'm doing really well. Even though you're not, it's so disingenuous to yourself and the people around you. And I think it's really interesting that Ryan holiday, for example, can bring a whole body of work returning to stoicism, which is the opposite of the self-esteem movement, which is hard work failure, grind it out play the long game, keep learning, keep growing.

And you can see that. Could you imagine if the self-esteem movement had still been popular when COVID hit? The world would have fallen apart because we just wouldn't have had the backbone to the [00:16:00] stamina to get through things. And I think the context for all of us is life is hard. That's the fact.

So we've got to look to these tools, these mindsets, these models, by which we can embrace that hardship, grow through it and be like a Steve jobs, like an Oprah, like a Michael Jordan who had just say great hard times. Good. This is an opportunity like Jaco willing, like even Joe Rogan embrace the discomfort.

So I think what we're seeing now is the context by which we can make this shift. And I think it's a super powerful, super relevant model to be thinking about right now as we come into 2021 and beyond, this is the time to say, all right, 2020 was pretty crazy, pretty hard. Let's make the most of that. Let's use that to define our personal growth.

Let's [00:17:00] use that to build our skills. Sets the scene, doesn't it ma it sets the scene for exactly the next couple of clips that we're going to be getting into Mike and similar to some of the names that you've just mentioned as well as I'd want to add Tom Brady. He's another great example of somebody who almost faced in his mind failure w what number was he?

299. Something like that? No, no way more than that. He was, if I remember, oh, it was oh gosh, I know it was the fifth or six round, which is getting in the back end of the draft. He was right at the back end of the draft, the sixth round pick. And I think it was looking at my notes and again he came out and look at where he is now.

He chose to. Those those skills didn't eat and these next couple of clips that going to get into a really building on that. And Mike, [00:18:00] I think it's fair to say, going back to that self-esteem comment, I think there was a natural assumption for a while that people assumed, Hey, I'm either good at it.

Or I'm not my neighbor or friend. He's really good at that. I'll never be as good as that, but the truth is that's quite a distracting and quite limited and limiting exactly getting right. It's a limiting approach. Isn't it. And what we've got next is actually. Again, a lovely household name. Mr. Will Smith telling us a little bit about skills and what I want to encourage as we listened to this is this reminder that not only are as Carol was saying in that previous clip, everybody is able to go out and fulfill their potential, but really there's no shortcut.

So this next clip that we're gonna listen to is will Smith's mindset and telling us a little bit about, has his attitude towards success. The separation of talent and skill [00:19:00] is one of the greatest misunderstood concepts for people who are trying to Excel, who have dreams that want to do things talent you have naturally skill is only developed by hours and hours of beaten on your craft.

 I've never really viewed myself as particularly talented where I Excel is ridiculous. Sickening work ethic while the other guy's sleeping, I'm working. What other guys eating I'm working. There's no easy way around it. No matter how talented you are, your talent is going to fail you. If you're not skilled if you don't study, if you don't work really hard and dedicate yourself to being better every single day, you'll never be able to communicate with people, with your artistry, the way that you want it.

So the only thing that I see that is distinctly different [00:20:00] about me is I'm not afraid to die on a treadmill. You might have more talent than me. You might be smarter than me, but if we get on the treadmill together there's two things you're getting off first or I'm going to die. It's really that simple.

It is really that simple. So my, what we hear there is somebody in Mr. Will Smith, who is defining their success as this continuous obsession with growth and self improvement. He is just, he's not only going to work hard, but he's going to sit I would say, seek out growth and improvement continuously, even if it's just like a fraction every day, because he's working hard and he's seeking personal growth and improvement, he's not fixed.

And I think doesn't that just [00:21:00] frame. What Carol's work really discovered as the key to this thriving abundant world of opportunity around you versus poor old me. I just don't have it in me. It's, we're really starting to tear away that sort of fixed mindset we're going to, we're smashing it down and helping ourselves understand that there is just this abundant world of personal growth.

If you choose to find it, if you choose to find it and work hard at it, I think it would be very easy for unless you use will Smith to make an excuse and say, ah, there's somebody who's younger. There's somebody who's fitter. There's somebody who's motivated by money, whatever it might be.

I think it would be quite easy to fall into that category. Wouldn't it similar to, again, going back to the Tom Brady, [00:22:00] where he, as well as will Smith sharing an alignment here within their mindset, within their growth mindset specifically it's that need, or as you say, obsession, to keep on grinding the keep on pushing really hard to stay at the top of their game and never accept the current situation as, okay this is it.

And that's really the fixed concept. Isn't it? The fixed mindset of, okay I'm not going to run faster. I'm not going to run harder. I'm not going to work longer. I'm just going to allow the current success or the current failure to determine what it is that I'm doing. And I think that was a nice little Kip to encourage us to keep on going out, pushing that back.

Yeah. And we've got another sort of Hollywood legend so to speak, who's got some thoughts first don't we might, we do this next clip. Continuing that same vibe is if we've [00:23:00] got, willsmith setting us up for mindset obsession, the grind that Yaka willing getting up at four 30 every day to go out and be the best version, as well as the rock.

 He's another good example of somebody who's really driving this this growth mindset. This next clip we've got is what happens when you try and succeed, but things go wrong. What happens when you might be working very hard, but for some reason, it's just not giving you the payoff that you really desire.

And this next clip is from a legend. As you say, Mr. John legend and his acknowledgement of failure. The thing is every successful person has failed at what they love to do before. I've been unsuccessful in my career. You just didn't know about it cause I wasn't famous yet. And I was trying to be famous.

I was trying to get a record deal for six years and I kept getting turned down and any successful person even though it seems like everything just happened for them it usually was [00:24:00] proceeded by a bunch of failure or at least a significant amount, but the great ones, aren't the ones that don't fail.

 They're the ones that learn from their failure and they keep going and they're persistent and they're tenacious. And for me I was trying to get a record deal for from 98 to 2004. And I got turned down by every major record label, including the one I'm signed to now. And for me that means that even when you hear, no, you have to keep going through all those nos until you get to yes.

And with learning something new, I think it's the same principle when I was younger. I didn't really know that you could just get better. Because I think we're so used to the idea that you're talented at something and it's fixed the idea that, oh, he's just a good singer and even with singing, I've gotten better at seeing as I've gotten older, I wasn't [00:25:00] singing in a way that was sustainable and I wasn't breathing, I wasn't doing a bunch of things correctly. I realized that there was a ceiling that I couldn't crack through unless I actually studied and worked under a coach to get better. And this idea that things are just fixed is proven not to be the case. You can get better at things you can grow and even people that are innately talented still need to go beyond that basic talent that they have in college.

Another great source of evidence about this growth mindset that Carol Dweck really has drawn our attention to. There's another band that was also famous for receiving rejection, which was none other than the Beatles. And when they got rejected by the record label, DECA, this is what they said.

We don't like their sound. They have no future in show [00:26:00] business and quote,

Albert Einstein couldn't speak to Lee was for Walt Disney, got fired from a newspaper, wait for this. This is what they said. He lacked imagination.

How great is this? The reason I think it's important to remind yourself of these stories is just because it didn't come naturally. The first time doesn't mean it won't come. So whatever we want. Upskilling, whatever we want to grow within the greatest obstacle is not our talent. The greatest obstacle is to be tenacious like will Smith.

And to accept that failure is a legitimate part of learning. As John legend has told us this mark I hope we have laid the groundwork here with all of the facts about the opportunity of the growth mindset and how we need to reject this fixed mindset. [00:27:00] I think there it's so critical to, to really come to terms with that, because in a moment later in this show, we will show you how to adopt it, the growth mindset.

But I think we have to pause for a moment and acknowledge that it's very tempting to say, oh, I just can't do that. I don't have that kind of skill. How many times did he think people saying things like that? I, it's not even something that I hear from other people. I hear it from myself going back to last week show and I think you said a great phrase, Mike your mind is your enemy.

What was it? What was your turn of phrase? The mischievous devious mind that for me, is a great connection to today's show because if your mindset again is pretty mischievous and you are in that fixed space where [00:28:00] you are willing to just say, oh it didn't work for me. I'm not going to give it another go then.

That's great. That's mischievous that's your mind pushing against you? Isn't it? It is. And when we look around us, what John Legion was pointing at is don't forget that you only see people. No, when people once they have been successful, so it appears like they're what they call, they're an overnight success.

And there's a lot of wisdom around this idea of, there is no such thing as an overnight success, right? Because you can always go into their backstory and find years if not, decades of dedication to whatever their craft might be. And that is the real truth. So we find ourselves maybe starting well on a new [00:29:00] mission and adventure, a new project and your company career, whatever.

But then the rough seas come and then sometimes. More than likely that we will abandon ship and say, now this is all too much, but what we see from both John legend will Smith and all the other people that we've mentioned is you've got to grind it out. You've got to stay the course, be rather stoic about it.

But I think what Carol brings is extra is the growth mindset, which is this notion of continuous learning, celebrating those wins in personal growth, always seeking challenge and improvement and just saying, great. It failed. Awesome. What did I learn and what am I going to do next? It's seeing that potential failure as an opportunity.

Isn't it? It's acknowledging ability and your chance of success or becoming better at something as a a [00:30:00] product of those challenges. Similar to, if you are training for a race and you pull a muscle, what are you going to do? You're going to learn that you might need to stretch more.

You might need to roll. You might need to do something a little bit different that turn of your brains, cogs and thinking, okay if this, then that this happened, so what am I going to learn from it rather than saying, oh I pulled a muscle, so I'm never going to run again. All right.

That would be the fixed versus growth mindset. Yeah. Yeah. Look it's really powerful stuff. Can't wait to get into the very practical part of the show where we really break it down and show you some of the steps you can take to do it. But when I think about growth, mark, I want to suggest a notion to you.

I think if we want to learn together, if we want to learn out loud here on the moonshots [00:31:00] podcast, that really involves all of you, our listeners, our moonshot is, and mark, we have a little idea that we want to float past our listeners. Don't we there's a certain little something that we'd like to invite them to be part of.

We'd like to invite you listeners to go and pop along to our website mentions.ai. Here's something a little bit different for those who regularly tune in and listen to us, we have a notion and a proposition that we'd like to put to you guys. We'd like Mike and I to build and create a platform, an application that's downloadable onto your phone that enables you to interact with shows.

You can still listen to the show. You can actually go one step further. You can comment. You can share, you can bookmark. You could see what are those pieces of data that we've mentioned about our shows with transcriptions and episode notes, but you could [00:32:00] also take part in communication and dialogue with us.

You can vote for future shows and you could eat. Maybe get some training and coaching on some of the key ideas and frameworks that we discuss on the moonshot show. However, Mike, is it really up to you and I to go and create? Not really? Yeah. I think we're happy to build this for all of you as listeners, the official Duncan and our moonshots app.

Absolutely. But we need you guys to tell us if it's a good idea or not. So if you go to moonshots.io, there's a little banner across the top of the page where you can go to the sign-up page for the book. And I think if we get a certain number of beta testers, we will launch the application to them.

 Mark, how many do you think how many listeners need to raise their hand to get [00:33:00] the Bader of our moonshots app? What's going to get us excited to build this whole thing, produce all that content and ship. Moonshot app to them. It's do we need do we need five or 10 or that seems a bit low.

Doesn't it? It does, particularly when we think about all the new listeners tuning in from the four corners of the globe and just something for our backlog, Mike, we're going to have to figure out translations and different versions of the app for all of our different reasons. Would you say 50 or a hundred just to keep it in a, yeah, that sounds pretty, pretty good.

 Let's see if we can make there's three core features to our app and let's see if we can establish the need for them. Number one, I think general listening in existing apps to podcasts is really lame. It is particularly hard to go beyond the pressing [00:34:00] of play and the pressing of pores.

For example, bookmarking of your favorite podcasts. Striking up comments, thumbs up sharing like those critical moments that you think, oh my gosh, Mike would love this. I've got to send it to him. I, that stuff ain't easy. Like listening is a very one way rudimentary. I would argue in all points. My personal experience is exactly that it's not conducive to having a dialogue.

And we, Mike and I adore when our listeners get in touch. Don't we Mike, when people leave us notes, send us emails and interact with us. So I think this platform, this app to me, solves that issue by creating a chance to have a more meaningful conversation with Alison. Indeed. And in fact, we, the second feature we want is to create this feature where your votes [00:35:00] determine the shows that we do in the future.

So think of it a bit like product hunt or Reddit, where you can vote up a particular authors, particular celebrities, famous people, sportsman academics. You can actually vote them up. And the ones that rise to the top, you're telling us that's who you want us to cover. We've had great suggestions from Terry Rodriguez Bettina.

There's just some of our listeners who constantly send us great suggestions and we're very grateful for that. So that's another thing you can do. If you really want to hear us decode and break down a book, just getting into the app, sign up, tell us what you want. You can submit your own suggestions.

You can vote. And then lastly is there's definitely for example an opportunity to train yourself, to get the playbook for being the best version of yourself. So imagine you can go to one destination [00:36:00] that will break down growth mindset, how to learn, how to find stillness how to keep your ego in check.

 This will be the training and coaching section. So three big features in the app, interactive listening, voting for shows and training. It's all there. If you go to moonshots.io, sign up for the beta, and if we get 100 people that sign up, that's assigned to me, mark, that everyone really wants it. So let us know, let your mouse clicks, do the voting, let your keyboards do the typing.

Tell us if you want the moonshots hat head over dementia. It's dot IO, click on the banner at the top and just. Your name, your details, and you will be signed up for the beta or I can't wait. Fingers crossed. I'd love to see it, Mike. So let's see how to go. The a hundred got together, got to get a hundred.

Let's see if our listeners agree. Yeah. Okay. So now it's time to get into how we do this growth mindset stuff. [00:37:00] How do we embody the best of Carol Dweck? How do we do it? Will Smith and John legend. So there is no more appropriate person to go to then Carol herself, let's have a listen to her, talking about how we get into the growth mindset.

So you talked about over lunch. We had an itching discussion with part of the team here about a growth mindset, fixed mindset. It's a great simplified way to think of it yet. People can have both. And it's more of a spectrum. Talk a little bit more about, about how you can have both mindsets. We're all a mixture.

 It's true that you can have a fixed mindset in one area. And a growth mindset and other area, but even, and it's true that it's a spectrum, not a dichotomy, but it's a really dynamic, even in a given area. Sometimes you're in a fixed mindset, you think, oh my ability to fix, I have to prove them. I have to look smart.

I can't [00:38:00] show that I'm working too hard. People might then think I'm so smart. And other times we could be more in a growth mindset. So what we have to start doing is looking for what triggers that, because the fixed mindset holds us back. We have to start looking for what triggers it and all of us, even me.

 What happens when you're facing a big challenge? Do you worry about I'm going to unmask deficiencies. What happens when there's a setback? Do you think maybe I'm not good at this. What happens when you're receiving criticism? Do you get angry and defensive? What happens when you see someone who's better at you in what you're good at?

Do you feel jealous and resentful or do you feel inspired? Maybe I can learn from that person. Maybe they can mentor me. So watch out at these trigger moments, see how you're feeling and [00:39:00] see if you can get yourself into more of a growth mindset. Pretty significant step there, Mike, isn't it going from?

How we see a notice when you're in a fixed mindset and when you're in a growth mindset and taking action in order to revert yourself back into the growth mindset, if you are. Stuck within that fixed mindset, because look, I'm certainly Mike in my past, and even nowadays often getting myself into that fixed mindset where you just kinda say this is it, then this is all I can do.

And that's when that fight or flight really kicks in. Isn't it. And what invariably happens is you tend to go into the flight mode. Yeah. I think what this is [00:40:00] really taking us into, I think the starting point to actually doing this I think what this is doing is showing us the moment where the rubber hits the road.

So let's dig into this because I think if you are presented with a moment of challenge, there's a couple of things that you're tempted to say, I'm no good at this. I give up it's really hard. I can't make this any better. I just can't do it. Oh, I've made mistake. How stupid am I? Like you can be very fixed right now.

What you can do is when when there's a trigger, it could be a moment, a problem, a challenge, an email, a call, something unexpected happens. You can say, Hey, what am I missing? [00:41:00] Hey, I'm not at the destination, but I'm on the right track. What are some of the things, what are some of the models and learnings that I have that could help me grow?

 Hey, this looks like it's going to take longer than expected. Good thing now that I've made this mistake, I now know that's not the right approach, so I can eliminate that from my consideration list. And if you are presented with a challenge or a failure, you can say did I really do my best to you?

 Did I really think about it in the right way? Did I give it enough? Hey, and you know what, there is plenty of time left to get it right. That's when you start moving into the growth mindset and I think this is our choice on how we perceive things when they have. The growth mindset is giving you permission to not fall to your ego and saying, ah, this is no good.

I hate [00:42:00] this. But rather the growth mindset is like, all right, okay, didn't work out. What am I missing? I know that when I'm encountering challenges and problems, I must be doing the right thing. Cause I'm stretching. I'm exploring. I think this is the beginning of the growth mindset response, the growth mindset journey.

Don't you? Yeah, I think the there's a wonderful visual that I've seen somewhere where a fixed mindset is like a brick wall and it's set in stone and it just demonstrates, this is the problem. It's hit a wall. That's all I can do. Whereas. The growth mindset is a little bit more dynamic fluctuates.

It gets stronger because of those responses that you've just gone through. The one for me that particularly I really is where that mistakes help me get better show give it a, go see what happens, test and learn. But [00:43:00] also this challenge to ourselves of is it really my best work?

 You and I have spoken a lot about how we prepare to deliver work on the moonshot shirt before about preparation, creating a skeleton a bit of work beforehand in order to guide us as we come back to the next day. And I think that's the kind of habit Mike that we use in order to try and deliver our best work.

And I think that's quite a interesting approach to challenging ourselves to do that. It is. And I think this is the big learning from what we just heard from Carol Dweck is that when challenge on obstacles come, the growth mindset starts with good. I can grow through this. I am on the right track.

I'm not there, right? I'm not going to be of the self esteem era, but I [00:44:00] am thriving through the challenge and through the growth I am striving to continuously learn. And I will celebrate, even when I feel like a failure, this tells me that I'm doing the right thing, and this sets us up for this next idea from cow where she's challenging us, she's really going to get on the sharp end of this.

So this isn't one that you really have to tune in. Let's have a listen to Carol Dweck talking about how we should all wait. Take the challenge. What are some specific behaviors you can do to get yourself on the road to a growth mindset? Here are some ideas. So first if you have a choice of something safe versus a challenge, take the challenge.

If you hit an obstacle, try to interpret it in a growth mindset way. So w what [00:45:00] can I learn from this? What can I do now? As I mentioned before, if you see someone who's better than you go learn from them. So those are a set of behaviors you can start doing. In addition to, as I also mentioned before monitoring those fixed mindset triggers, and the thing is that.

It's a journey. That one is always on. It's not ever the case that you've arrived at a full permanent growth mindset. It's something how that you have to look at all the time. Cause even I hear so listen to that voice in your head at the trigger points. Cause even I hear myself saying sometimes in my head, I was never good at that.

Whoa was, did I say that? So [00:46:00] listen to the voice it's constantly running in your head. And I actually recommend that as a very first step. The first few weeks that you embark on this journey, don't push yourself to exhibit any growth mindset, characteristics. Just listen to that voice. That says, jump, try this.

You might look foolish. You made a mistake. If people knew that they wouldn't look at you in the same way that person's better than me. I hate them. I'm just whatever that voice is saying in your head, listen to it and even do it with friends, discuss it. Or when you see someone doing something that looks effortless, are you thinking, oh, they're just brilliant and talented.

 Catch yourself thinking that or someone who's struggling.[00:47:00] D are you thinking, oh, they're not really good at that. Albert Einstein says I'm not that smart. I'm not smarter than other people. And he meant it. He said, I just stick to things longer. That's why people thought he was slow. Originally. He knew he didn't understand.

Time-space. Energy and so forth. So I would say the very first step is the first few weeks. Just listen to that fixed mindset, voice it's there. We all have it. And if you don't hear it, it will rule your behavior. Carol, coming out with some pragmatic tips for us, Mike don't choose safe, see obstacles as growth opportunities, learn from those who are better, but remember that you might not land on it.

And that stayed overnight. You got to keep working on it, but a good reminder and very connected to Toll's work [00:48:00] where he's Look at your ego and how it's creating this voice in your head. As she was saying like, oh, that person is really good at that thing. They're way better than me.

Or I don't want to try something new because it will be embarrassing if I fail. That is the ego speaking in your mind, right? That is the ego having its will with you. And you can't give in to that, like any sort of criticism is not a sign of inadequacy. Rather you can see that feedback as a vehicle for self-growth right.

 Setbacks are not the end of the story where you're like it didn't work all over. No, these are the moments where you push through and grow. And it's really important to understand that we can be tempted because of our egos [00:49:00] to avoid challenge, because it doesn't feel safe. We might do something dumb.

We might be exposed, but just be comfortable in the not knowing just even first principle here is watch out for that voice that might prevent you from taking on a deeply rewarding challenge or opportunity, because you're like, oh no, I don't want to embarrass myself. And we're all guilty of this thinking early oh 100%.

And for me, I certainly found myself having that fixed mindset when seeing a potential obstacle or brief or request coming along. And I think this is not my strong suit. This is not something that. Naturally land on my feet on, and it is really tempting to therefore to fly and that is the voice of my fixed mindset coming through and putting a ceiling on that action.

And what Carol was talking about is catch yourself in the moment and say bad, mark. [00:50:00] Don't think like that, right? Because that's the first point. If you're aware that you have that temptation and then you literally can train yourself, okay. That didn't work out. All right, what can we learn from is how can we do it better?

How can we grow through this? It's not the end of the story. Is it? I find this connection with the ego. So fascinating when there spin so many frameworks and mindset approaches that we've learned on the show that connect back to this idea, isn't it you are always. Working with your ego in mind, you might, your ego is in the driving seat, at least some of the time.

And this reminder that Carol is giving us in her book is yup. Notice it maybe just for the first month, first few weeks, whatever, just notes. It don't do anything about it. Just notes. Sit, come to terms with hearing [00:51:00] that voice hearing and appreciating. Okay. It's around. It's saying this that's okay.

Because once you hear it, once you appreciate it and are aware of it, then you can go out and potentially change yourself back to that growth mindset. I think that's so fascinating. How ego keeps on coming back. Yeah the relationship of the ego is is a great one. So if our listeners are really interested in that they should head over to the episode we did recently with Ryan holiday's work.

Ego is the enemy because what's so fascinating is it is a really it is the perfect first principle to have on the back of this self-esteem everyone gets a medal, a movement to go hang on. You're not nearly as good as you might think you are. And know that this voice in your mind, driven by [00:52:00] fight or flight will be the thing that is the barrier in the first step towards a growth mindset.

Once you know that voice in your head is saying, no, don't do that. Cause that could be really embarrassing. You go hang on a sec. Once you are watching the thinker, as Eckhart told, say, once you hear the ego speaking to you, you can say, I choose not to listen to that thought. It's just going to pass me by.

And I'm going to entertain a growth mindset. I'm going to know that feedback is a great chance for me to grow setbacks as the yakka willing to say. Good. And as we heard from John Lamb, legend willsmith effort, the grind that six years, it took John legend before he got the record deal. That's, what's making us smarter and better.

It is not like there's natural God given gift. And you've either got it. Or you don't, it's what you make of it, isn't it? Yeah. What do you mean give it, and the effort that you put into it, [00:53:00] it's kinda the way I like to try and think of myself, Mike is like an engine and. Maybe this is my obsession with diggers when I was a kid.

But the idea of fueling the engine in order to get it moving. And in this case, I think the effort is that fuel. Isn't it? The you're working on trying to change that mindset in order to make yourself smarter and better. And that's the kind of fuel that keeps you learning, keeps you growing.

 What what Bizarre analogy. I've tried to make there. Maybe that's my 13 year old coming through, but that's what really matters is that you can digest and relate to this. However you want. First rule number one, know that the ego will force you towards a fixed mindset, choose for a growth mindset.

And that starts with [00:54:00] embracing challenge embracing adversity. And that will set you on your way, but it's not only a seasoned career guys and gals who know this truth. There's also some really amazing stories of kids and students embracing the growth mindset. And we're going to wrap the show up with listening to Carol Dweck sharing with us a little note that she received about the growth mindset from a 13 year old last year, I got a letter from a 13 year old boy.

He said, dear professor Dweck, I read your book already. I like the fact that it was based on sound scientific research. That's why I decided to test out your growth mindset principles in three areas of my life. As a result, I'm earning higher [00:55:00] grades. I have a better relationship with my parents. I have a better relationship with the other kids at school.

I realize I've wasted. Most of my life.

Let's not waste any more lives because the more we know that basic human abilities can be grown, the more it becomes a basic human right for kids. All kids, all adults to live in environments that create that growth. What a wonderful little outro clip from Carolyn one of her fans, a 13 year old writing to her to say I've wasted my life.

I think it's a pretty powerful image for us, Mike the power of Carol's book mindset to inspire and encourage us to change [00:56:00] how we react to things. I think that's a really good call to action there. I think that the the frame here is that the unlock for us is if we choose for growth you can, you'll still face hardship and challenge, but you will do so in the search of personal growth.

Personal improvement. And if you cumulatively like will Smith on the treadmill, if you just keep going, you'll get these amazing compound results, won't you? Yep. You'll keep on getting better and you'll stay ahead of your not only your competitors, so to speak as well, Smith might be thinking, but actually more importantly ahead of yourself ahead of your fixed mindset, which is the reason why a lot of us find ourselves limited by a ceiling [00:57:00] or an approach, or a reaction to occasions that are pretty uncomfortable.

Yeah. And just, it's funny how a question for you is how many other people, if we studied on the show that you can see in this thinking who comes to mind for you as being people who are totally of this mind, we've definitely discussed Tom Brady already. He was such a good visual sorry relevant demonstration of somebody who keeps on the top of their game.

He keeps on pushing himself, both physically as well as mentally. And he is one of the greatest of all times. I think we also found that with even lady Gaga in the music space, Again, somebody who wasn't finding it straight away as success straight away, kept on pushing, kept on giving it a go.

And that is a great demonstration of her [00:58:00] growth mindset. Keeping her much like John legend moving in that space. I think Joe Rogan touched on it, obviously Ron holiday episode 112 ego is the enemy really touches on this concept of ego and mindset as well. I think to be honest, even in our timeless classic series, Stephen Curry.

He touched on the idea of habits and how to be effective. And I'd argue that those first three habits were really all around reflecting on ourselves. And I'd say that this is a perfect connection or bridge between his work as well as Carol's. The mindset is a shared concept between the two of them.

And they're both encouraging us to be aware of our mindsets and remember that we are ultimately in control of them if we choose to be, I think that's the main lesson for me, Mike, that I've really got out of. A lot of these shows around mindset we're in control. If [00:59:00] we choose. Yes. And sometimes maybe many of us don't even know that choice exists, but once we're aware of the choice what we've done in the second half of the show is really pushed into, okay, here's what you got to do once you've made that, you've got to say, great, what am I missing?

I'm on the right track. I'm not there yet. Like how can I use everything I've learned? I can always keep improving mistakes are a great chance for growth. Like these are the ways we need to respond in the moment. Yep. In the moment, notice it, notice how you're going to react and choose to go and react in that positive growth mindset approach.

 Starting time. Yeah. I'm going to take a bet that apart from knowing that there is a choice in mindset, which is so very powerful, I think for you today, my guess is going to be that it's the fixed mindset is born of [01:00:00] the ego. I think that's the greatest revelation for you. Yeah, for me, it's the connection between fixed an ego, being the glass ceiling that you can either choose to look through and think.

Yup. Okay. The glass ceilings there are, I'll leave it where it is or you choose to go and try and burst through it. I think that's for me, you've hit the nail on the head. Mike, that's the most powerful concept for me. What about you? I think defining your success. And satisfaction in the day as being growing and improving that, that to me as it's been a very good reminder in that.

Yeah. Very good. Mark, I think we get to this moment where I just say, thank you. Thank you for helping me know that there is this choice. Thank you to you for breaking down some of the steps that we can take together. It was pretty good. Wasn't it? That was great. Very revealing. And I'd say a perfect[01:01:00] closer of the timeless classic series.

And Mike, just to give our listeners a little bit of a tease we're actually going to be launching into a couple of episodes that our listeners themselves have recommended to us include. From Mr. Terry Bean, a couple of books on Dan Millman, which I think is going to be really good as well as a recommendation from Rodrigo.

So I can't wait to get into the sounds good. And if you want anything around that this show previous shows, future shows anything at all, head over to moonshots.io, and you will find a world of moon shotting happening right there on the interwebs mark. Thank you to you for coming on this journey with me and thank you to you.

Alison is all you moonshot as all of you who are trying to be the best version of yourselves. Thank you for joining us on this journey into counter [01:02:00] work, where we learned it out loud and it was all about mindset. Is it fixed or is it a growth mindset? And here's the great news. Everyone. Everyone has the choice to grow and fulfill their potential, just like Wilson.

We know we have learnt, we have studied that skills and success can be developed. They are not fixed. They are truly born of growth. And another thing that is growth is failure. And we heard that from six years searching for a record deal from John Lynch in himself. So you are moonshot is you have this choice.

You have this opportunity to choose for growth and you can see setbacks are ideal opportunities. From growth feedback is your chance to grow and to improve too. And listen to Carol. When she says, when there is a choice, you always take the challenge. And if you do that, you'll be in a position where you are no longer [01:03:00] wasting this beautiful life that you indeed have.

So go out there and define your growth. Define your success through the act of continuous improvement. See a world of abundance, see an opportunity to grow, to learn and to improve. And without a doubt, you will be the very best version of yourself using this thinking from Carol Dweck. All right, everybody, that's it for the moonshots podcast, that's a wrap.