Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi: Flow
EPISODE 142
Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi: Flow: If you’ve felt hours fly by like moments or marveled at a sunrise you’ve experienced flow. In fact, it’s a state we experience surprisingly often, at work, at home, and at play. Mihaly’s Flow (Buy on Amazon) explores how we can experience enjoyment in our lives by controlling our attention and strengthening our resolve. This is achieved by being immersed in an activity or subject that makes us neither anxious nor bored. In this “flow state” we lose our self-consciousness, selfishness, and sense of time.
Using goal-setting and immediate feedback, we can achieve a state of flow that improves our relationship with work, increases our self-worth, and gives our lives meaning.
“The best moments in our lives occur when a person’s body or mind is stretched to its limits in a voluntary effort to accomplish something difficult or worthwhile.” Mihaly
SHOW OUTLINE
INTRO
Mihaly introduces us to inner strength and mindset
What is flow (3m14)
UNDERSTANDING FLOW
Successful By Design breaks down the Anatomy of Consciousness and processing goals
Your conscious has limits (2m14)
Successful By Design gives us 4 benefits to Flow
Improve your experience of life (51s)
FOUR STAGES OF FLOW CYCLE
Steven Kotler breaks down the science of flow
Understanding Flow Cycles (3m36)
Successful By Design on how do we get to Flow on our hobbies and our work
Steps we can follow (3m52)
Mihaly describes eight characteristics of flow
Complete concentration on the task
Clarity of goals and reward in mind and immediate feedback;
Transformation of time (speeding up/slowing down);
The experience is intrinsically rewarding;
Effortlessness and ease;
There is a balance between challenge and skills;
Actions and awareness are merged, losing self-conscious rumination;
There is a feeling of control over the task.
CLIP CREDITS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQslkMCAzfg&ab_channel=SuccessfulByDesign
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esFxNluCvPQ&ab_channel=Happy%26Well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWy_cBcawKQ&ab_channel=BigThink
TRANSCRIPT
Hello, and welcome to the moonshots podcast. It's episode 142. I'm your co-host Mike Parsons. And as always I'm joined by the man who is in a permanent state of flow. Yes, Mr. Mark Pearson Freeland. Good morning, Matt. Good morning, Mike. This is an exciting moment. Isn't it coming off the back of the mental model series and a quick interlude into Dan Millman.
We're now beginning, Mike, I'm pleased to say a brand new series on creativity and Mike. I think we have the perfect subject matter to really kick off this creativity series. Wouldn't you think? Perfect. Yes. Hard to pronounce also a yes. What do you think? Listeners, if you've seen the name pop up in your podcasting app of choice or in your newsletter signups, and you're thinking I'm not familiar with this name or don't you worry because by the end of today's show, you will be so well attuned to the work of [00:01:00] Mihai cheek sent me hi and his work on flow (buy on Amazon).
Mike Mihai, he really laid the foundation of this way of thinking. Didn't he with the idea of flow he certainly did. And discovering his work and his has been just a huge confirmation for me on how I want to work, how I want to live. And I've been able to use this, whether I'm thinking about sports or work or anything in between this idea of finding, creating, and sustaining a flow state is.
Really it's I think it's a human, we should all be able to enjoy this idea of being in a flow state. And in fact, what I've certainly found for myself is the more I can create the conditions and get myself into a bit of a flow state. It's, ah, it's like a nice warm bath that rejuvenates the body and the soul.
And by the way, [00:02:00] it's when you do your very best work. So I am delighted that we have this opportunity to delve into the work of Mihai check sent me. Hi, how's that for pronunciation? He's really the pioneer of this idea of being in the zone, the flow state, he discovered it, he wrote the paper and he had.
The great fame and the acclaim of being the guy who found it. And we today mark again, a showcase not only his work, but the people that he inspired who have some very practical advice, very powerful tools, techniques, habits, rituals that you can all use. So today, Mike, we are going to get the flow habit going.
What do you think? Yeah, you're right. It's all one thing to understand the idea of the benefits of getting into flow. Like yourself, I've experienced it a [00:03:00] few times in my career and I have heard of the work of Mihai in the past as well. And it's so attractive as an idea. Want to get into flow.
And by the end of today's show, we are going to know how to simulate ourselves into patterns and pattern behaviors of thinking better and getting ourselves into the flow patterns. Yeah. I think we've all experienced flow on occasion, but not nearly enough. Don't you think that's the biggest challenge we face with flow map?
Yeah, the biggest challenge is really getting our brains into gear and removing lots of distractions. But Mike, I think before you and I continue introducing it to much more, why don't we hear from the man himself, Mr. Mihai chick sent me hi, introduce us to the idea of mindset and the idea of flow or the other decision is one that came to me partially from my own experience of world war two, which [00:04:00] I spent in Europe.
Made me aware that some people even under the worst circumstances seem to maintain their integrity, their purpose, their joy, whereas others, once they lose their supports of financial wellbeing or starters or their properties lost, they crumble and they become empty shells. In many ways they become bitter and unable to function.
So I, I became as a child already interested in trying to figure out what makes the difference between people who have an inner strength or habits that they have cultivated in [00:05:00] the life. That makes them able to enjoy life, regardless of the external circumstances that you can live either as a pawn off external forces, or you can learn, you can master your own destiny to a certain extent, and this act of living under your own control, rather than being pulled by the strings of fortune and fade.
That's what I call flow. And this is something that I simply learned by talking to people who seem to have. Some passion about life that differentiates them from everyday people. And I call this flow because the people [00:06:00] themselves started talking when they described how it felt to be truly alive, to be completely functioning.
They use the metaphor of being carried by a river, carried by a current, and they say this happens. And when we sing with Diane's as happened just a few minutes ago here, when we do sports, but then very quickly I realized that it's the interesting part is. But flow is that, that you can do it when you separate yourself from everyday life and you do something artistic or Atlantic, but you can do flow when you're studying, when you're working, when you're at home and with the family.
And that's really the the best application of flow is how you can use it in everyday life. [00:07:00] I love this map because already he's challenging what we might think of as just being a bit in the zone, right? He's saying, oh, no, it's this natural state of being that feeds not only you. A flow state, not only being in a great rhythm, but he's saying, no, this is all about building in a confidence and taking control, taking responsibility for yourself.
When you listen to that, what you realize is flow is so much more than just being in the zone, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. It's so much more than just turning off your notifications and getting into that zone. He talks about the idea of passion and how everybody, he spoke to all these individuals who had this natural joy, divvy, and wanted to go out and do some great work.
And I think a lot of them. Have run into moments or speed bumps in our careers where you think, ah, I don't [00:08:00] really care about this project or this product, and I'm not that interested. So I'm not gonna be able to get into flow and that's it, the service, and maybe we're even being dishonest with ourselves because we're able to control that passion and that attractiveness to a product or an idea or a piece of work, just like you said, through discipline, through the approach and the way that we have to think about it.
And I think that's what Mihai is really calling out here. We all can take ownership of how we view projects, challenges, work, life, home life. And if you are trying to find a really passionate moment in your day, you can actually start. In any degree, you don't have to be an artist painting. You don't have to be a musician.
You can find flow in any number of life's avenues. How exciting. It's such a great breakthrough and we get to break it down. We get to decode it, learn it, understand it, and share it with all of you, our listeners. And I [00:09:00] just am very excited about what we have ahead, what we have installed for you in this show.
So we're going to get some more context on flow, understand its relationship between goals and consciousness. We're going to really see the fruits of flow, and then we're going to get down into habits and rituals and the things that you can do literally once you've finished listening to this fine podcast.
So you can have more flow in your day. And I, for me, I'm forever thinking about trying to engineer my calendar for those moments where I can be really. Take control and do stuff that really comes naturally to me. And I feel great for it. And I think that energy is something that I share with my colleagues, my peers, my family.
So I think it's an essential thing that we should all be doing if we want to realize. Our full potential. And I tell you what, mark, we've got a bunch of people, a bunch of [00:10:00] members that you stays here at the moonshots public house, and they're all realizing their potential. What do you think this growing band of moonshot is my I think we better shout out to them and thank them for their support.
We've had such a positive number of individuals signing up becoming members of the master series of moonshots via our members section on the website. Mike we have members from quite literally all over the globe, a quick shout out to Bob, to Nils, to jest John, to Terry, to Briley, to Neil, to Sandy and Mike Mario line Delroy, Mara, and a great member from the Netherlands, which is a very dear place to my heart.
I spent eight years there. My son was born there. I got married there. So it is just so wonderful to see the Dutchies singing hoop Holland hoop, and [00:11:00] coming on board to be moonshot members. And we want to encourage all of you to become members as well because you get access to our moonshot master series, our exclusive podcast for members.
So there's in addition to this one, you get to hear us going deep on the essential practices to be the best version of yourself. So we're so grateful to all of you who are becoming members and supporting us. Remember. By becoming a paid member, you help us generate the funds to build our mobile application that we're going to launch later this year.
So we can really deploy the best technology to use. So you can get the most out of the moonshot thinking. I think mark, it would only be fair to shout out to all the different corners of the globe. We had Fabrizio reaching out to us, sharing our stories from Brazil. How great is that to get a note from Brazil?
It just helps it helps me feel passionate Mike [00:12:00] hearing these individuals and these listeners and these people from around the world, getting in touch with you and I and our team on the moonshot side and calling out these little stories from all over the globe and joining us as moonshot master members as well.
It makes me feel not to get too soft mic, but it makes me feel pretty. Pretty warm inside and isn't it great. How many passionate people we have learning out loud with you and I every week? Yeah. And he called out some of his favorite shows was Sachin Nadella from Microsoft, Tom Brady, Christine Lagarde, Abby one.
But I mean that, there's a cross section of folks right there. You got growth mindset, resilience. You've got fighting against the odds. You've got being a team player and frankly, those are all lessons we can learn to be the best version of our. And as all good moonshot is, do Fabrizio gave us a recommendation.
He said he would really love us to do talking to strangers, [00:13:00] a book by Malcolm Gladwell. We did so many books by Malcolm. I can't believe mark that we left one the mouse. Yeah. I think our series of four shows on Malcolm Gladwell, maybe we'll have to come back and do at least another one just for, yeah, I think so.
Become a member. Tell us who you want us to study. What superstars do you want to learn from will decode their work or share it with you. Become a member@moonshots.io. That's where all the good things happen. And mark, let me tell you, there are lots of good things we can enjoy in the world and.
Chasing your goals, something dear to the moon. Shutters is something that is not only good to do, but it's an essential part of flow. So that's having listened to the YouTube successful by design begin to break down the anatomy of consciousness and processing goals. How many times have you heard people say that there'll be happy only if something happens.
If they had more money, if [00:14:00] they had a better car or a better house or something else, people tend to believe that their happiness comes from the outside. However, if you've read a book or listened to a talk about happiness in the past 30 years, there's a good chance you heard that only 10% of your happiness comes from your life circumstance.
So we're left with the million-dollar question. What about the outer 90%? The answer is Flo. What is Florida the best way to describe it are those moments when you're completely absorbed in a challenging year doable task. That could be for instance, when you're completing a project and he gets fully immersed in the work or when you're jogging and you ignore all the stress you in life, and you just keep pounding the payment, or when you become soil marks in your favorite activity, that time passes without even noticing what it's writing, playing video games or something completely different.
After a law of research, the altar concluded that the best moments in our lives are not the passive receptive, relaxing [00:15:00] times. Think of Netflix. The best moments usually occur. If a person's body or mind is stretched to its limits in a voluntary effort to accomplish something difficult and worthwhile. So how does this all work?
Let's break it. It all starts with your consciousness, that sense of awareness of internal and external existence. It is basically everything you experienced from a song stuck in your head to some negative feedback. Someone else give you what you probably don't know is that your conscious has limits.
The brain can process up to 125 bits of information per second. So let's say watching this view requires you brain to process information at its maximum capacity, but while you're watching this, you're also scrolling interface. Yup. I see you there. Your attention will be divided and you won't be able to process all the information in his video.
So it stands to reason that to achieve your most challenging goals, you need to direct your full attention to that one task [00:16:00] by doing so you bring up process information and its maximum capacity, and you're that much more likely to enter a flow state. Oh my, this gets me going. I this level of science and data breaking down our brains bits per second.
This is exciting. Yeah. We're entering the inner sanctum of flow. We're getting into a couple of things that don't just think happiness is sitting on the couch and watching Netflix. In fact there is bodies of work saying happiness is actually a falsehood.
The thing we're all really after. And this is pretty heavy duty stuff is satisfaction and fulfillment through doing things that matter. So we have this kind of false chasing of utopia, happiness on the desert island, but it's actually investing effort in things that matter and feeling [00:17:00] satisfied, fulfilled because of that.
That's actually the highest order of why we are on this planet, not just to be happy. And in fact, many Stoics would say, once you accept that life is really tough and unfair. It's only then that you get down to the real business. And I think a lot of people do search for happiness on the couch with Netflix and fail to see that it's a conscious choice to pursue goals.
Isn't it? That's what really matters or unlike, we've just heard in that clip. I quite like the symbol breakdown, the happiness isn't from live circumstances, or at least if it is, it's quite a small percentage, I think 10% to live circumstances. What's in front of me. What am I consuming right now?
And instead, like you say, if you're chasing something productive actions that challenge you from a skill perspective, your feeling confident in yourself and passionate about the job in hand. Yeah. And I think that [00:18:00] it's the classic thing, let's ask ourselves w where do we see this?
I great example is like mowing the lawn, painting a room. Sometimes you're like, oh God, do I have to, but then actually, even though that little buzz you feel at the end, because you've just been in there in the room painting, sanding it down. And then just being in this kind of not too difficult, requires some attention and you're listening to some tunes and before you know it, the room is painted and then you sit back and go, wow.
I hope it's great. I think this is why so many people get fulfillment out of gardening because it uses flow state. You have this difficulty and skill this attention. You're not too anxious. It's not too hard, but it's not too boring. You're in flow. I really liked this idea of pursuing a very consciously set goals and straddling those two lines.
I [00:19:00] believe that this is why even at the beginning, you think mowing the lawn will be by the most boring thing on the planet, but then at the end you look at them and it looks great and place looks fantastic. And you're feel pretty good right now. I think that's the, in a confidence in taking control that Mihai was talking about.
Yeah. Yeah. I like that analogy actually, because you're right. It's not necessarily something that's super. Skilled necessarily. If you're going to do the job well, then obviously you want to give it lots of attention and giving your best go. But at the same time, it's it's a workout.
You've got to pay attention. You don't want to run over anything. And if you can straddle, like you say, that boredom element, which is when you'll go online maybe, or consume content or you're just purchase, you're just byproducts because you think that's going to make you happy or the converse side, the other side of that chasm, you're feeling anxious.
So you're a little bit off put you don't have that confidence. [00:20:00] I think it's really that sweet spot flow is really that sweet spot of feeling confident about what you are doing at the moment and feeling quite satisfied and happy and the end product. It certainly is. And I think Now we're studying to lurch towards habits and rituals, and we're going to get that.
Don't worry. But I think it's really important. We want to follow up what we've just talked about with making sure that we are incentivized enough to create the conditions for flow state, not just getting in the zone, but really taking control of your environment, taking control of your time, your calendar, setting those very conscious minded goals.
So let's have a listen to successful by design again, but this time we're going to just now you with all of the benefits, all of them, every single one of them flies. So let's have a listen to successful. Benefit them one, you're more likely to achieve your [00:21:00] goals. The best way to accomplish a goal is to put everything you have into it.
That includes your time and your attention. So when you enter a state of flow, you immerse yourself into the one activity and by doing so you are a step closer to achieving that one goal benefit. Number two, you become more self-confident because when you feel it can actually succeed in a challenging activity, it gives you a massive boost in self-confidence benefit.
Number three, you improve your experiences because you'll realize that even the most devious tasks can be rewarding when they're aligned with your goals and you feel that you're not working in vain benefit, number four, you become a more complex individual. You feel sense of differentiation because you've done something that makes you feel capable.
Oh, okay. Quick fire round there. Mike, let's just recap on can give us what you, what those four benefits were. What were the ones that really stood out to you [00:22:00] and then give me your feeling of which one do you think? Yeah, it's nice. So for me, I think as we were talking about earlier in the show today, you get that level of self-confidence when you can achieve flow.
And one of the benefits is feeling good about yourself, which in turn, depending on how we want to break down this idea of happiness, it can lead you to feeling more satisfied and comfortable with the job in hand. I think that one is a pretty big one for me, but the third benefit that's successful by design calls out in that clip was your experience has improved.
And I think that is a big aha moment in my mind, your experience of the work, your experience. Difficulty or a challenge or an OBS an obstacle is then improved or perhaps changed through your visual approach towards that challenge. So much like we saw in the mental model series [00:23:00] where you can utilize a number of models and frameworks in order to solve problems better.
Perhaps I believe that where we can see a benefit from flow landing for me in my mind is being able to achieve it and therefore improve that experience that otherwise might be causing me a lot of anxiety, a lot of pain, a lot of discomfort so much so that I might be tempted to flee or fly from that problem.
Oh, I see. So it almost builds resilience. Yeah. That's where I can see a big benefit of flow coming in here because in changes or maybe rewires what I. How I'm visualizing or seeing or receiving a potential situation or experience. So let's look at it then and compare this to deep work and let's ask ourselves, how is this different?
Because we know that you are moonshot is [00:24:00] love. Cal Newport's work on deep work. One of the most popular shows we've ever done, but this there's something more here, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I, for me, and I am such a huge fan of deep work as well. We've talked about it so many times on the show and like you say, our listeners love it as well.
I would say that the difference lies in the differentiation between productivity and enjoyment, so deep work, or at least the way that I use deep work, it's when I've got to get something done. So I want to. Not be distracted. I want to make sure that I have given it the best chance of being a good deliverable.
Let's say whatever that might be, whether it's a message, a document, a conversation, giving it enough time to really be considered and thought about in a deep work approach[00:25:00] is what's really valuable to me, at least in, in cow's work where I can see flow being slightly different is it's a little bit more personal.
So it's a little bit more, a little bit more about how I perceive things that are around me. So where deep work might be handy for me to carve out time and be productive logistics. I see flow coming in, in the enjoyment factor and the passion. So this is really interesting thinking because I would build on what you've just said.
And say the following, like deep work is about very they're very related, but I think there's an important thing here. Deep work is about allocating that time to as they say, get into the zone. Something that we've talked about a lot on the shows. I know for sure I do my best work in the morning.
So if I wanna, like tomorrow, let's say I w I really [00:26:00] want to produce something I'll need at least two hours. I'll get to bed early. I'll wake up early. I will attempt to make it the first thing that I do after I've woken up, had that cold shower done that journey all the good things.
Now you moonshot listeners. You should not mine but here's the thing. Deep work. I'll allocate two hours, no distractions in we go, I think where flow adds something is that there needs to be more, it's not just about productivity to deliver a thing. I think there's an additional add here, which is this idea between taking on something with a bit of difficulty and taking on something that is going to require some skill and that the sweet spot is being in the middle of there.
So the way I relate to that is to have a stretch goal, right? So don't just do something [00:27:00] like deep work would be say us spending two hours together, making the show together. That's going to be like deep work. However, flows state comes when there's also the introduction of a little bit of a challenge and it's this healthy challenge, their healthy stretch goal needs to be brought into it.
So you are about to encounter perhaps something new that you've not done, but you have an excitement about doing it. Not necessarily anxiety to me, that's where flow state comes in. So one of the things that I know has a really big flow state for me is when for my work, I make a new master class on something related to building new products in the world.
And for example, I might. Refer to what I did yesterday is I produced a master class on how Revolut the Neo bank, how they've been successful. And I basically broke it [00:28:00] down and showed how you can do it too. Now, it was really exciting for me to do. There were some new insights in the study and the preparation that I had done, that's really not just deep work, but that's achieving a flow state where I go really into the zone.
So I think it's this excitement about the new new challenge, new skill levels. I think that's the important build upon deep work. If you want to think about flow state, to me, that's the kind of framing for us to understand that it's not just doing the work, but it's doing new work or work that brings you a new twist on difficulty and skill.
It's not just rinse and repeat stuff. So for example, when you're running, maybe you run a different route. Maybe you run a different tempo. If it's in that healthy stretch goal, you can achieve this really nice flow state. And there's a lot of things you can do around it with your environment as well, which is very exciting.
We're going to [00:29:00] tackle that in the rest of the show, but mark, did I build on it? How you had seen it or do you see? No, I, I would only maybe even pose this particular inside Mike or opinion maybe. Flo can actually help those of our listeners who maybe are in a situation where they've maybe fallen out of love with that job.
Or maybe they've got a problem in front of them that they don't really want to tackle. And therefore they're looking for distractions. Maybe they're not giving the work the best of their ability. I think what you've just built there, Mike is an idea that if you can achieve this level of thinking this level of flow, you can find that passion again, by looking at the problem in a different way.
So said, otherwise, if I'm going for a run, then I'm a little bit bored. Maybe I'll go a different route. If I've got a problem in front of you. Why would I approach it in the exact same [00:30:00] way every single time, instead of thinking about it in a different way, thereby creating new opportunities to learn, maybe create new opportunities, to find enjoyment in the job and suddenly accessing a new point of view about a problem or a job or whatever it might be.
Maybe it's a difficult conversation approaching in a slightly different way via their usage of flow can make it feel like a totally different situation. Yeah. And if we we'll get into some of the environmental stuff, but changing things up a little bit in, in how and where you work. And there's some other related work here that I just want to mention mark, that we will do on a different show.
There is a fantastic body of work by Steven Kotler, who we have a clip from. We'll definitely do a show on him. The other thing I wanted to mention, there's a great Japanese concept for the reason for being it's code ikigai. And it adds a lot of similar attributes to me. [00:31:00] Hi, and his work around flow, but it's like a life system.
So we'll be sure to do that. There's a great book. I just read on he guy. So we've got so many it's like me hires work. It relates to so many other great practices. We've yet to cover on the moonshots podcast. It is so exciting to know that there's all these possibilities to optimize ourselves. Mark, isn't it?
Yup. There's so much, w we've Mihai has created this foundation for us to build on and for other scientists and authors to create ways for us to understand this idea. How valuable is that for us to learn it? Oh yeah. Now listen. If you're thinking to yourself, okay. There's been lots of context setting here.
Lots of inspiration. You are now dying to know. How to build a flow state for yourself, how to do it, not just once, but how to repeat it. We are now entering the flow ritual [00:32:00] stage of the show, cue the drums, blow the trumpets. And we're going to start with somebody who is wildly interesting guy, Steven Kotler.
He definitely deserves his own show, but for now, yep. Adjust a clip. But this clip is ethic work. I want you to think this as the modern extension of Mihai is original work. This is a guy that has spent his life studying people who are Superman, who do the impossible, and he has decoded the playbook for four, and he's done it from a scientific research bat perspective.
So I'm really excited to share with all of you the different flow cycles. The flow genome project. What we've discovered when people want more flow in their lives. The number one thing we can tell them is that there is a flow cycle. So the old idea about flow was that it was a binary. It was like a [00:33:00] light switch.
You were in the zone or you were out of the zone. And what we now know is that flow is a four part cycle, and you have to move through all four parts of the cycle before you can return to the flow state itself, the neurobiology, the flow cycle, and the actual research came out of her.
Benson's work at Harvard. He laid the foundation for it. But what we've discovered is that the front end of the flow state, there's a struggle phase. This is a loading phase. You are loading than overloading the brain with information for a baseball player. This is learning to swing a bat at a ball for a writer.
Planning a new book. This is when you're doing interviews. This is when you're reading. It's when you're diagramming structure and things like that. It's very in pleasant as a general rule. So even the flow may be the most desirable and pleasant state on earth. The actual flow cycle itself starts with a very unpleasant state known as struggle from struggle.
You move into release. This literally means you want to take your mind off the. What happens in flow is we are trading conscious process and which [00:34:00] is slow, has very limited Ram, right? The working memory can only hold about four items at once. And it's very energy inefficient for subconscious processing, which is extremely fast, very energy efficient, and has pretty much endless Ram.
So to do that, you have to move from struggle. You have to let stop thinking about what you were trying to think about. Basically you take your mind off the problem you go for long walks. Gardening works very well. Building models works very well. Albert Einstein famously used to row a boat in the middle of lake Geneva and stare at the clouds.
Once you can take your mind off the problem, and then won't, by the way, one of the only things that you can't do to move through release is watch television. It actually changes your brain waves in a way that will block flow. But once you move from release, There's a actually underneath the surface.
Neurobiologically, there's a global release of nitric oxide, which is a gas is signaling molecule is found everywhere in the body. This flushes all the stress hormones out of your system and replaces them with feel good performance, Nancy neurochemicals, like dopamine and anandamide and serotonin [00:35:00] and endorphins, which underpin the flow state as well.
You're in the flow state itself. This is the third stage and the struggle and on the back end of the flow state. There is actually a recovery phase and this is really critical. So you go from this amazing high of flow to a very deep, low that shows up in recovery. A lot of this is that all those feel good neurochemicals of drained out of your system.
It takes certain vitamins and minerals and sunlight and things like that to rebuild them. So the recovery phase on the back end of the flow state is actually very unpleasant as well. And if you really want to hack flow, you need to learn how to struggle better and you need to learn how to recover better.
And one of the most important things in recovery. Is, you have to, you need some emotional fortitude, some grit you have to basically hold onto your emotions, not get stressed out at the fact that you no longer feel like Superman. And the main reason what two reasons for this is one. If you get too stressed out, Low you're going to start producing cortisol.
Little bit is fine, too [00:36:00] much of it blocks the accelerated learning that comes with flow. So you'll actually, you'll get the short-term benefit of the flow state itself, but you won't get the longterm benefit. The accelerated learning that you get in flow. The other problem is if you have to move from recovery back into struggle and you're bummed out at no longer being in flow during the recovery phase, it's very hard to get up for the difficult plight of struggled and follows.
Wow, Mike, that a deep dive really fun again, much like the earlier clip we heard about with the science, this is taking it to another level. We're getting into the DNA, the endorphin, the nitric oxide. That's in our bodies. It's fascinating. It's totally fascinating. I think the interesting thing here who's you just need to listen to Steven Kotler and you think, I think he may have, I studied it with that precise description of the cycles and the biophysical response that we have to each of [00:37:00] those different steps.
It shows you though that you can't just like, all right, I'm going to jump into flow right now. Like it doesn't work like that. So to me, there's a lot of conscious preparation that happens to go through those four phases. So just as a reminder, there's the struggle then there's the letting go, the release, and then you can enter the flow state, but also anything that's good in the world, you just need a recovery phase as well.
So this is this kind of four step process to achieving Flow state now I think the big thing is my, what we should do is a practical tear down on, okay. What, where do we start this? Like, how do we, where do we begin, mark? Yeah. Yeah. I think what's fascinating to me, as I consider where to begin is what [00:38:00] Steven's just done for us.
How he's laid out this almost like a map it's like planning your exercise and I think get shaving a state of flow in order to do work is a little bit like preparing yourself to go for a let's just choose a long run or strength, workout, whatever it might be. It's going to be a little bit difficult and having that awareness prior to going into the act of the exercise or the act of the work, I think is actually really valuable because then your body and your mind is prepared to experience something that's a little bit unpleasant.
So I'm reminded of David Goggins and never give up. And the amazing clips that we had from Goggins, where he's tearing down this idea of resilience. I think that there has to be a Steven Kotler's calling out here a level of resilience that we all need to have prior to actually engaging and working [00:39:00] into a flow cycle.
Isn't it? I think it almost brings us like getting this guy is, brings us right back to the Joe Rogan show where he said Get comfortable with the uncomfortable right. Learning to accept that it's just a natural part of life. And I think setting the goal of learning and doing something new with something, with a bit of stretch in it.
And I think before you, particularly in the early times of getting into a flow state, is that you need to really be deliberate in setting the intention. Yes. I want to do this and yes, I know it won't be perfect the first time, but I want to do this. I think that conscious decision will help you get through the struggle and then letting go so that you can then really enjoy that flow state.
Yeah, I think you're right. And in fact, you've just reminded me of a similar moment. Quite recently, I was preparing a point of [00:40:00] view for a meeting that I had coming up and much like you and I have discussed on the show before one of our faces. Let's call them hacks or favorite way to prepare prior to a big meeting with a customer or a client or a colleague is to prepare some talking points or maybe it's an agenda or a table of contents.
And prior to sitting down, you're looking at an empty page of paper or a document, and you're thinking, oh no, where do I start? How do I focus? That's that struggle mode. That's the moment where you think, okay where am I going with this? Okay. Maybe I should talk about finances, but in order to talk about finances, I sorta need to get them warmed up with the context, maybe the background, and you start jotting down all these different ideas.
Don't you Mike scribbles here and there. And you might form a little bit of a skeleton. What? Steven Koller then calls out a step two, which I really like is the release go for a walk or [00:41:00] maybe gardening, whatever it might be, change it up. And that's pretty consistent Mike, with what you and I have reflected on before, which is once you've written down skeleton table of contents, let's say, leave it for a bit, share with a colleague, ask for feedback, but don't work on it anymore.
Maybe just give yourself the night to sleep on it. Then when you come back, you might not jump straight into step three, which is fine. Maybe you need to, again, go through a little bit of a struggle, a bit of a release, but that preparation. That almost like stretching prior to an exercise, creating the table of contents, creating a working document, I think helps us get to that flow state quicker.
Doesn't it. And once you get into it, cause you've laid down the foundations prior to the moment of trying to do that work. I think it becomes a little bit easier. Yeah. Yeah. So let's, before we move on here, I think what we should do is [00:42:00] nominate some ways that we can start this process and to understand what it takes to do.
And I'm gonna run you through a couple of ideas. Tell me what you think about if someone's listening to our show and one of our listeners is yes, give me some of this flow state. Here's a couple of things I would do. Step one. Eliminate all external distractions. Great example, yours sounds pretty self obvious.
Turn off your distractions, but go and work in a place where you will not be distracted. Number one, right? That sounds pretty good to anything, mark. Yeah, there's that statistics that says, if you get distracted, it takes another 25 minutes to get your full attention back. So one simple notification, Mike can knock you back by 25 minutes.
There you go. There you go. Now the next thing is what I would, what works for me personally. It's totally up to [00:43:00] you mark and all of our listeners, but I love journaling every morning and doing some meditational breath work just for me. I feel like I'm cleaning the slate blank canvas, getting rid of all the dust.
I think that's much more about what's happening on the inside rather than what we were talking about before, which is the externalities of distraction. I think now we're into like clear the decks, get yourself, if you've had a really, when I finished making the masterclass yesterday, I just noticed my brain was just going in fifth year and it took me a long time to wind it down last night, just because I had spent.
The best part of a day, making a masterclass. That's how all those internal distractions can affect you. Not only after, but you've got to clear the deck. If you've been working on things, you've got to clear the debt before you go into flow state and don't underestimate, it could be all these sort of background [00:44:00] computations happening in your brain.
I like that. So clear or be aware of external notifications and distractions, but also remain you have your own internal ones as well, then aim to do this work in flow state whenever your circadian rhythm is at its best. So if you're a night owl or if you're an early bird, don't try and work at the opposite time that if you're like me if you work the best in the morning, do it in the morning.
That makes sense. Doesn't it be fo working when your mind. Now another great hack that I do is that I listened to a lot of ambient music when I work. So I will it has to be like super minimal. It can't have any vocals and I really This is like a key part of me getting myself primed.
I wouldn't mind [00:45:00] betting now that it's almost, I've almost got it to the point where the, I actually think that it's like almost a cue to me. It's like a habit cue when I listen to this. So if you're interested in music I listened to, which is not only ambient music, but it's designed at the frequencies that respond that you have a biological response to alpha and theta and gamma.
So go to YouTube and type in the metaverse. This channel designs, music that affects you biologically. Wow. How crazy is this? So I'm just looking at the list here. Healing music deep theater for Hertz by annual beats soundscape focus meditation. Oh, how awful wave alleviate stress with the rifle frequency.
There's also [00:46:00] these other frequencies that are called the God frequency that speak to us at these alpha fettering levels. You're all thinking who is this? Mike? I is crazy. But how cool is that? Mark? You can actually listen to music. That's purposely designed for your flow cycle. That's a great hack.
And I must admit if the listeners are thinking what's going on here, I didn't know about the pheta alpha and gamma music either. That's fascinating, but I'm definitely going to give that again after this. So it provokes this biological flow state obviously take into the session one job to be done.
What? Do not try. And accomplish three different things because that's a recipe for disaster. There's switching costs, as we talked about. Hey, and lastly, I think, which is essential to understanding obviously you want to, you have a goal and all that kind of good stuff, and [00:47:00] you're going to be in the right setting and have all your kind of drinks and hydration all of that.
But the last thing I would just say is choose something that is a healthy stretch goal. And I think this is the best, most relevant advice to flow state. If it's exactly, if there is no challenge, like you've done this before a number of times that's not going to induce flow. It's gotta be, it's gotta be different enough.
It doesn't have to be crazy different because then you will find it very hard to be satisfied because you've just taken on a mountain, but find something let's say, for example, you're a musician, you've always played a particular artist. Play someone who's similar, but you've not played one of their songs before.
That would be a good example. That's like a healthy stretch goal. Does that make sense? Yeah, that really does Mike and I like these six or seven steps that you caught out there. [00:48:00] There's a really valuable at helping me not only understand the value of flow as we've talked about today, but actually as I consider making this part of my daily habits, something that I can try and practice each day, I think that actually.
Provokes me into trying new ways of approaching a particular problem or challenge. Yeah, totally. Totally. All right. We've been doing lots of talking. Let's go back to successful by design let's. Now that we're really primed, we've got all the triggers to get into it. Let's look at the steps that we can follow for a flow state.
Step. Number one is to set a goal, write down your main goal for that activity and other smaller milestones. You might want to achieve. Say your ultimate goal is to run a marathon six months from now, or write it down with some smaller milestones, like a run five miles per day, or run half a marathon three months from now.
Step number two is to decide how you measure your progress. [00:49:00] If you all ever run faster, for instance, time will be your measuring tool. You cannot get better at something unless you first measure it. Step number three, focus on the activity. Flow comes from. If you find it hard to achieve the flow state, your new running sessions, for instance, try listening to music while you run or pay close attention to your distance, or do your speed, or do your heartbeat.
Those little twists might help you focus solely on that one activity. Step number four is to learn everything about the activity. Even the most seemingly uncomplicated activity has its little secrets running first as seems straightforward, right? But if you want to be a good marathoner, you need to uncover a lot of the finer details, how much water to consume and when how to stretch and warm, appropriate, what to wear, what not, where the deeper you go into the details.
The more immersed you can become. The next step is to develop new skills, no activities, too simple, any can never be too good at [00:50:00] something. So look for, we can improve and work towards developing new skills. If you want to be the best runner, for instance, learn the skills that can help you become a better.
Like your arm position or your foot contact, there will always be new skills that will help you master dictate. And step number six, dong good board. Have you finished the marathon? Awesome. Now it's time to set a new goal regardless of what your craft is. Once you've mastered it, or at least you feel like you've mastered it, challenge yourself with new goals and start back from step number one.
So you see, you can easily transform any activity into a flow activity, but so far we've talked about more hobby and freedom like activities. Unless of course you're a professional athlete, but most of us spent a large portion of her day. What a different type of activity one, then we affectionately call.
Work a flow equals happiness in a big portion of our life. [00:51:00] Suspended work, your all overall happiness lives or dies depending on whether you enjoy your work or not. So let's talk about flow at work. The good news is that you do not need glamorous or exciting work to find flow. You might think that unless you're saving people or you saving the world, or you're some world-class creative artists flow will always succeed people, but that is not the case.
The book tells the story of Joe Kramer. He worked in a factory that assembled railroad cars, not very exciting. And even though he was great at his job, he never wanted to become a managing. Instead. He wanted to learn how to perform every task on the offensive. In his free time, he built intricate gardens using his skills.
He acquired in his workplace. His gardens were super sophisticated, include pathways, terraces, their own custom sprinkler system. So you see, he turned ordinary experiences into [00:52:00] floor experience by making use of the opportunities available for him. In contrast, most of his colleagues claimed that the work was something impossible to enjoy at the end.
It all comes down to your perspective. If you choose to fully immerse yourself in your work and follow the steps we outlined earlier, you'll be much more likely to enter a flow state. If you instead, constantly look for that thing to distract yourself with even the most exciting job will become a yard.
My bringing home a clip that really breaks down Mihai cheeks. High's idea of flow and how we can transform any activity into flow, covering hobbies as well as work. What a great way to bring it back home. I couldn't agree more because think about it, whether it's work or at home hobbies, sports, you name it, you can apply this.
And I think there's a biggest story here. I think what we've just discovered is [00:53:00] you. You should pursue new things and personal growth continuously overtime. And that really is that desire to keep growing will bring you so much satisfaction from filming. Yes, a sprinkling of happiness too, but it doesn't come without a little bit of challenge.
You don't want to feel anxious, but you do want to be excited about learning new things. You want to be challenged. You don't want to be overwhelmed, but you have to have a few heads crutches. Like, how am I going to do this? Because I think what it simply comes down to. Is the stretch that we make to learn new skills, to solve new sorts of problems to achieve new things.
This is, this growth is essential to keep us going to be the very best version of ourselves. So here we are thinking, we're going to do a show on getting in the zone, but it turns out that this is at the essence of realizing [00:54:00] your full potential is this continuous growth, continuous learning through entering flow state.
And it's really up to us as individuals to take ownership of it and find that perspective rather than thinking towards a problem or maybe an activity such as a marathon or just exercise in fact, and wandering now way that's. It's going to be too hard for me instead of you break it down.
Like we just heard in that final clip, define the goals, find ways to measure that progress, really concentrate on a single task. Think about that training or stretching, and then go and develop those skills. Like you say, Mike, go in and even though you might know, it's going to be a bit of a challenge to go out and develop those skills to get that little bit better.
And there's plenty of times, Mike, I'm happy to say that in my job, I'll run into moments when I'm[00:55:00] scratching my head and I'll be thinking, I'm not really sure about that bit of technology or I haven't really done this level of interview with a potential customer and so on. And it's fun when you do change that mindset.
And instead of me thinking, oh, no, I don't want to have to go and deal with this now. I don't want to have to learn when you actually think. Okay remember it is really fun to learn new skills, then suddenly it becomes far easier, but also far more enjoyable to go out and do. Totally. And now that we have traversed the world of flow state, we've heard from the creator himself and many people that he's inspired my, where does this leave you?
If you were going to change one thing today about getting a little bit more flow into your daily routine, what are you want to do? I think there's a couple of big takeaways [00:56:00] that I've had actually today. So I'm going to cheat your question just a little bit. I really do believe in that connection with deep work.
I do think there are, they are slightly different. So I'm going to bear that in mind. I liked your recommendation on the music. The Fetter, the alpha and the gamma waves that's that was new to me. And if it is, and if there is a musical cue that can help you get into flow state, I'm going to go out and find it.
I think that's a really great recommendation, as well as this reminder to me that my brain has limits. So if I'm going to get into a flow state and do my best work, I can only be thinking about one particular thing. So removing external notifications, as well as those internal distractions through journaling, through discussion through meditation, that is going to be how I'm going to be able to clear out those [00:57:00] cobwebs and that baggage in order to go out and be my best self.
What about you, Mike? What did you take away from today's show from me? I feel that. The conscious decision to get that, that slightly uncomfortable stretch goal. I think maybe I'm, I've been in a cycle for the last year where I've perhaps, and particularly the last three to six months, I've perhaps been a bit too heavier on the deep work rather than the flow state, like just producing like a machine.
So I think introducing this idea of working on new things with a bit more difficulty in school, change up a healthy stretch goal in pursuing new things personally and professionally that I think that could really be the takeout for me. I think that's perhaps why I talked about it so much on this show.
It really stuck out to me. There is a [00:58:00] difference between deep work and flow state isn't there. Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree. And that's definitely a big lesson we've learned from today's show with me. Hi cheek sent me high and flow. What a. What an absolute pleasure. Mark, thank you to you for joining me on this great journey and thank you to you.
Our listeners, all the moonshot is out there joining us on this adventure of learning out loud together to be the very best version of ourselves. And boy, what an action packed show, what our surprise it. Wasn't just about getting in the zone. What we had to learn from me, high check sent me high was that flow is so much more than that.
And it started with taking control, building this inner confidence. And through that, we can start to understand flow that it's really about conscious goal setting. It's about having a healthy stretch goal and you can do. And enjoy so many benefits. You [00:59:00] can not only continuously improve yourself, but you can be sharp at every day.
You can enjoy the compound interest of flow state. And we understood from Steven Kotler that there's four very discrete parts of the cycle, and each of us can enjoy them as we go through the struggle, the release, the flow, and the recovery, do all of those things. And it will not only help you with your work, but at home with your hobbies and your subs and your sports, whatever you want to do flow state is there for you.
What a perfect story for us here at the moonshots podcast, it has been wonderful having you on this journey.