live from amsterdam

episode 14

Broadcast date: November 25, 2017

Discover new insights about testing and learning, transparency, doing agile at scale, and empathy to customers and employees.

We just wrapped the show from Amsterdam. Thanks to audience and guests below.

1. Johan Van Mil, Co-founder & Managing Partner, Peak Capital

2. Maarten van Montfoort, Vice President at GoFastForward

3. Pieter Plaisier, Director Regional Marketing at KPN

4. Ronald ter Voert, Chief Editor at EMERCE

TRANSCRIPT

After eight years as the only Dutch I have, but it's not too bad, right? Not too bad. Welcome. Welcome to the moonshots podcast. How is Amsterdam this morning? This afternoon? So you, you think I've already been drinking a few bitches? I don't even know if it's morning or afternoon. Welcome. How are you feeling good.

Are we ready to do some thinking, some investigating? Are we ready to expand our minds? Or do we just want to drink the beer? Awesome. Okay. Well, a very fine welcome to all of you to episode 14 of the moonshots podcast. And as usual I am joined by the man was a plan usually behind the camera. But today he's in front of the camera.

Would you all give it up for Mr. Chad Owen? Hello Amsterdam. So if any of you got to see our, uh, preview broadcast yesterday, I had a great moment with Chad and I asked him if he'd been to a cafe in Amsterdam at to which he answered. Yes. I had a very nice breakfast at the cafe, but I said, did you go to one of the real.

Amsterdam Brown cafes. And he had no idea what happens in a Brown dock cafe in Amsterdam. So he needs you. He needs your education, your advice on how to find the very best of Amsterdam. And maybe not only some of the shiny tourist spots, but maybe some of the more. Earthier green off the beaten path off the beaten path as they say.

So, um, we, we have a lot to do here on the show today. Uh, Chad, um, we've got some amazing guests that we're going to talk about in a second. We have so much to share, but I think. We've got to do a few shout outs. Um, first for a disclaimer, uh, this is our first video live broadcast. So when we thought to ourselves, let's go live, let's go live and do it in video as well.

So we are welcoming upon us. All of the variables that you get when you do a live broadcast. For the first time. Now you might be thinking, ah, if this is a live video broadcast, where is the camera? In fact, the camera is right here in front of us and it's doing all sorts of groovy technology, right? Chat.

It's like zooming in on us. Everyone gets quite a high-tech production, right? Yeah. I'm actually controlling them from my phone right here. It's uh, quite a neat little app. We've got a nice two shot here going to a wide shot and a closeup on you right now, Mike. Oh, there you go. Um, first of all, we got to do some shout outs.

So I'm looking where's Tiago in the audience. Um, Tiago, who's watching, uh, asset live from Brazil. The wife is in Brazil. So we're sending out big shout out to Brazil. Um, I also know that my friends and colleagues in Bucharest, we're up on a big wide screen in the office and there's like 200 engineers in Bucharest right now.

They've put the laptops down and they're cheering for us here in NSA and say, give it up for bookarest in Brazil.

I think I have some fellow new Yorkers also it's about 9:00 AM. They're just now waking up after their food comas from Thanksgiving, or they're trampling over people at Walmart for black Friday, one of the two all at the same time. All of it. Yeah, exactly. So, um, We are all, uh, quite fancy and high tech. Uh, this afternoon, we've got livestream with people coming in and chatting with us.

Um, but I should come to my next disclaimer, and that is, this is not a, a relaxed, kind of a session for the next one and a half hours. So I think we need to warn this audience that they've actually got some work to do. Yeah, I'm coming out with the mic a little bit later and asking you guys, I'm asking you questions.

So, uh, be prepared. Hear that sound. That sound that's the what's he going to do? And yes, he is from Brooklyn. So you might be expecting to be kicking the Adidas and dropping some rhymes, but actually what he will be doing with his Mike is he's going to be coming to you. Our audience is going to be looking.

Online reading questions from our audience. And here's the thing we're going to have these grace entrepreneurs. These great innovators onstage with us and Chad and I, we really get the easy job. We can ask a few questions, uh, try and learn as much as we can from these four fine gentlemen. But we're going to ask you the audience to wrap it all up and tell us what we have learned from them.

So rather than us doing the post-mortem. It will be you, the audience is going to help us decode all their secrets to success. So you better make sure those glasses are full because you're going to have work to do, are you guys up for some insights and tough questions? Oh, Oh, we have such good energy at this stuff.

What's what's the audience online doing? Oh, they're all gone gap. Yeah. They're all gone. Do you think we could get them all back? You think? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So guys, you ready to tune in and learn from some masters of innovation here in Amsterdam? All right. Okay. So that brings us to our first guest. This is someone who's really, it's really special for me to invite on stage.

Um, because he protected all of you. Good Dutch citizens from receiving badly formatted emails from me. When I was working in this advertising agency, sending out creative messages to the world, it was his technology that we use some 15, 16 years ago when I worked at McCann Erickson. So I really, really proud and really very happy to introduce you to someone who has not only founded.

A lot of companies, he's not only sold companies, but he now invest in companies. So I am very excited to welcome to the stage, Mr. Johan. Fine mill.

Thank you, Mike. Thank you. And, uh, who your meter is? They were very good. Now, before we get into the serious. Innovation and entrepreneurial questions, but Johann was actually about to recommend a Brown cafe to me. So right before we got on stage. So yeah. W what's your recommendation? I think where you should go is to a cafe called Indian in Dutch.

So in the ape, it seems like a few people know that one in the audits, we have gone there already. The show's only been going half. This man is having a big confession at his laughing, so that's good. But, but what I mean is in an IP, it's one of the oldest bars in an answer. It's really funny because.

That's a big, uh, deal times, right? And zoo and Amsterdam, and which it was built, especially from apes, coming from CX sailors, which arrived in Amsterdam. And when they came to a bar, they could sleep and they were paying with their apes, what they wish they brought from abroad. They would pay with monkeys.

They paid with monkeys and with the monkeys, they started the zoo. And it's really beautiful story. It's one of the oldest bars. It's at the Z dag neater central station. You should go to a chat really. Okay, that one's for the list. Now we have another very important announcement, as you will know, and we have a global audience.

Um, I'm, I'm going to see if Chad can see if we have any Australian viewers who are definitely either. A few bitches in, as they would say, or already onto the espressos, it's like one 30 in the morning. Uh, we couldn't pick a time zone to make everybody happy. Um, but we do have this global audience and we thought it only appropriate that we introduced the world to the very sophisticated culinary delights of the Netherlands.

So Johann in front of you, you might see a few, uh, food items that are familiar now, uh, for our global audience. And for those of you here in Amsterdam, who can't see what we have in front of us, we have the speckle us. Okay. Now the specular us is sort of a spicy biscuit. And would you say that's a kind of only a Christmas thing, Johann, or is that kind of something you can?

My kids, my kids eat it all year around. Okay. So, this is kind of a spicy from one we have over here at the paper note. Now that one's definitely a Christmas one, Santa Claus, the, in the class, in the class. It is. Yeah. Um, we have, um, over here, this one is called that Tai Tai Tai Tai. Yeah. Now this is like a, like a chewy doughy kind of an experience.

Okay. So here we've got our three. Ah, highly sophisticated Dutch delicacies. Okay. No one worldwide, but then we have probably a national favorite. Huh? Sure. The drop yeah. Drop. Yeah. Tell us what is the drop? Yeah, because fairies, you can have it in different flavors. You can have them sweet and salt. You can have it in hard and soft form.

I love it. I always have a bag in my car eating it. What'd you say in

Now, but the big question is sweet, sweet, or salty with your sweet and soft. Okay. So, so each of our guests are going to be invited to nominate their favorite Dutch treat, but you get to go first. So you ever have a whole selection here? Uh, tell us Johan, if you have to pick one of your favorite tea, I think you've given us the clue.

What should I try first? What should Chad try to drop? Yes, it is. Okay, here we go. So Chad is going into his first therapy is

salty. Do you get salted licorice? It is. Um, now let's just have a look at the audience. Um, Let's see by a show of hands. Who else here? All these good Dutchman and Dutch ladies who else here would put the drop you're out of the four who puts the drop here as their favorite Dutch treat. Let's have a look.

Ooh. Yes. Yep. And sweet or salty. That's about one fifth of the audience. Yeah. Yeah. So there's still a good chance for the cookies actually. Okay. So we have the drop here. So stay tuned, uh, particularly for our global listeners, uh, stay tuned because we'll be not only introducing droppers cookies and all sorts of good things.

We've got lots of great. Entrepreneurs and innovators that we're going to be interviewing. Um, but I think it's about time. We, uh, we put some questions towards Johann. What do you think? Yup, absolutely. Chad's just nodding. Cause he's in drop your heaven. I'm busy eating her drop there. I hope you haven't.

Okay. Um, okay. So the first question that we have for you yawn is you've built companies. And now you're investing in other people's companies. Um, tell us how you have had to shift and how you've had to grow from being that hard working, uh, entrepreneur, trying to make a vision come about. And how have you been able to, uh, transition now into helping others build their companies?

Yeah. Good question. I, uh, started as an entrepreneur, become an entrepreneur already when I was a student. So I built a few companies also as a student and also afterwards. And then I learned, I learned that having a company is great and, uh, but uh, managing people is not so great. And, uh, so I'm very good at, you know, thinking about ideas, creating companies, building companies, you know, when there are 10, 20 people max, but afterwards it's yeah, it became a pain for me, really, to be honest with you.

So I, I was always in the problem of starting a company. Working my butt off to get a successful, but then I fall into the fell into the fall of that. The company was too big, so I couldn't manage it by myself. So I think, uh, 10 years ago I realized, you know, I have to do something. I have to switch my career more or less.

So then I found some friends who also had that same problem more or less, and also have a little bit of money. And we said, well, let's put that money in one basket and let's invest in other companies and let's learn how it works. And it was seen years ago. And 10 years ago, there were not so many feces in the Netherlands as a word, for example, in the U S so we were, I think there were 10 roughly, and we did this by, by, by gut-feel.

And we saw, we talked to different companies, put some things, sometimes our money, and sometimes we did, then we did three investments with the guys and it turned out pretty successful. We, we sold two, two listed companies. So that means in VC land for the audience that you are doing pretty good. And one that was bought back to the team, and that means in VC land, that's not very good.

So we had, if we had a pretty good return and then we founded a new fund at a new fund, and then I think two and a half years ago, When I was selling my last company, I was thinking, what shall I do with my life? Shall I start my 12th company? Or shall I, Whoa. Are you joking on the number 12 or are you for real?

For real? Yeah. Yeah. 12 companies. Okay. We're going to come back to that. Okay. So you're at the last one, the last one? Yeah. Okay. You've sold it off and. You went through a transition. And then I went to a transition because I, uh, I realized that, you know, the, the problem I was falling into every time, you know, starting a company becoming too big, et cetera, that I, to, to really shift that that's one.

And then I liked being, helping out a company, coaching people think about new ideas, et cetera. And then. At that time, I was moving out of incident because we live pretty nearby each other. And then I moved outside, enter them into a natural forest area, so really outside. And I realized, you know, I don't want to travel all into the city again at 9:00 AM in the traffic, et cetera.

And I want to spend also more time with my kids or I was looking for a new. Way of, you know, getting direction, sorry, helping me in life and finding new ways to, to, to work on. And then I, uh, two and a half years. So I full-time made a switch from being an entrepreneur to being an investor. And since I'm, since that I'm doing it and it's great, I think it's very good.

What I like in my job, as you meet all kinds of people, you meet entrepreneurs. It gives a lot of energy is great too, to have them on the table and discuss the issues. And the hardest part for me is as an entrepreneur, you know, I always see where it's goes well and what needs to be changed. And then, you know, the big, big gap for me is that I step in and fix the problems myself.

So is one of the issues I'm constantly working. Okay. Okay. So I have lots of questions for you. Go first. Come on. I, I think for me, uh, what's your biggest takeaway from being an entrepreneur, having founded 11 companies and how does that give you a new perspective to then look. At a company and decide if it's worthy of investment or advisorship.

Um, and what are you taking from your entrepreneurship and applying it to your investing? Yeah, uh, I think what the most important thing is when you are an entrepreneur is having a, you know, a complete 1000% focused on what you are doing and work your day, your work day and night to realize that company.

I think if you don't do that, you will not succeed. And it was, you know, when I started my first company, roughly 25 years ago, I think it's the same now. And it's even harder because the competition, especially, you know, with the tech and it's easy to build a company, you don't need an office. You, if we work, you don't need a car, you have, uh, the Uber, the car to go, et cetera.

So it's very easy to start a company, but I think so it's really hard. It's really hard to have a successful company. And then it's really important that, that you work hard, but also work smart. So I think that's, that's what I take as an entrepreneur. And sorry, your second question Chet was, I'm asking, like, I dunno if there's any Dutch entrepreneurs here, like what should they be doing to interest someone like you to then become a, you know, an advisor or an investor in their company?

Yeah. Is it to build on that? When now you're looking, if you imagine there was all these prospective startups in front of you. Take us into your mind. Like, what are you actually looking for? Like, you must have some sort of checklist. Yeah. We, we do have checklist. We, we, we call it internally. We call it the T score and every company we talk to and every guy I ran to, if it's an, a funeral, because sometimes people really pitch at a funeral.

Hang on. There's a long story. It's a long and sad story by the sound of it. And we use more or less a model that we, we, we, we distract it from the 15 companies we invested in already. And the thing we saw roughly, I think 2000 business plans and entrepreneurs, et cetera, and what we are looking for is, and so what we call the T-score and derive from one, what is the team like?

The team two is what is the attraction? A three is what's the thesis of the company. So what's really the problem they are solving. What's the market. They are ticketing how scalability is. So we constantly look at these three when we evaluate an opportunity or yeah. In whatever phase it is. And then we derive from that what we're going to do with that company.

So it's a really. Structured way of working and otherwise I think that's the smart part, you know, it's working hard, but it's also working smart. I mean, if we don't do that, we get, you know, as you can imagine, a lot of business plans going, being sent in and we get approached a lot of times. It's very good to, to, to, to be very specific in the time which you spend on each company, because if you don't do that as an investor.

Yeah. I mean, time is our biggest, uh, uh, asset that we have. Yeah. And you can't buy time. You can't buy time. Yeah. Okay. So I want to go back. Um, I know what's really interesting, uh, for the audience here and the audience listening live online is there's a lot of people who are trying to make a breakthrough, uh, professionally, like with a business idea with a product, but it's often mirrored by a personal breakthrough at the same time.

I want to, I want you to take us back to this big transition. Obviously you said. I'm out of the city. I'm heading to the forest. Okay. Um, How did you make this transition? How did you invite this change into your life? And what advice would you give, give to anyone who's trying to go through that? Imagine that someone might in fact be working at a company, but working on their own idea.

And they're trying to, like, they've got a dream of a startup. Or they just want to see something great. Come about in the world. How did you invite this change? I'd take us through what you actually did. Yeah. The best way perhaps is compared to the different stages you have as a startup. You know, you have the idea phase.

If the MVB face. The, the, uh, product market fit phase and, and the scaling phase. And now, you know, when I moved, uh, out of the city, perhaps that's a good example because it's more in the private level instead of, you know, as a business, then, uh, I had the idea of moving outside my girlfriend. She was stick to see what she wanted to play, sort of to stay in the city and I really want to move outside.

So we had discussions years, years about moving out of the city, but she wouldn't do it. And a certain. Moment. I realized, you know, being an investor and working with those four stages, I realized I had to build an MVP for the situation. So I said to my wife at the time a girlfriends, right. I said to her, well, perhaps we shoot.

Try to lift. We started a project called poof bone. And so we started to rent out to rent, fire, Airbnb houses, outside Amsterdam, you know, just a week to feel how it was living somewhere. So we rented a house everywhere around Amsterdam, you know, half an hour maximum way from Amsterdam. So we started living.

Me, my wife and also our two kids and how it was, you know, living there. So , if I just understand that, uh, rather than just kind of being in a, in a somewhat abstracted, uh, life thinking about some big move, which would feel very dramatic if you've lived in the city all your life. And then, and then. You're going to make this radical change.

So you kind of did a test and learn, let's create an MVP and see if anyone wants it. Yeah. Yeah. And then, uh, we did it, I think seven or eight times. So we're at a great location, but also at a very boring location. So we learned what we want and we adapted our view also on that. And then a certain time we agreed on, you know, moving out of the out of town and then we bought a house somewhere and we started living somewhere.

So I think if you. Uh, use that also for your personal life. And if you have an idea as an entrepreneur, because I meet a lot of people who have an idea and cannot set, kind of make the real decision about starting the company is just one. I think the first phase is create an MVP test, how it works. So, you know, spend one day of your work.

So one day of the week, Or build a small thing or test a campaign or Facebook and see how people react. Just create an MVP, create a test for yourself and get some proof and get some failure, some validation from yourself, but also from the market, how it works. And then the step doing that is pretty easy.

And I see what I see a lot is that people hang in the face or are less about thinking about ideas and having that way, but not doing the real step. Okay. So just to unpack that a little bit, that sounds to me like once you actually started testing the idea much, like you might do it even in a startup that actually made the transition much easier.

Yep. Yeah. Did you find that was also a source of the commitment from your better half? Once you had done some testing and learning it wasn't so much a sell anymore. Yeah, you had really done it. And so the evidence was perhaps clear you buy it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, so that's a big change that you've invited, you've gone from building you saw on the horizon, your 12th coming up.

Well, I'd known you a long time, but I didn't realize it was that many companies. Um, well, one thing I'm actually really interested in, I have one company that I'm still operating. How in the world did you find the time. To found so many companies. And, um, I'm, I'm curious, just kind of your day to day process for thinking about both the higher level of, uh, how the company is doing, but then your brain is probably already on to the next idea.

Right? So how are you kind of. Uh, taking care of what's happening now, and then also planning for your future ventures at, at that time. Yeah, that's, that's a big, the risk for me, of course, because I'm always planning ahead. And what I do is, you know, if I have an idea, like, you know, when we started peak capital and also now our next fund, I have a visualization of how it becomes, and then I worked.

Towards that visualization. And I work in R then day and night in realizing, and that's, that's the way I do it. And it's also my, my big pit pitfall of course, that I have to step back sometimes and realize what's happening, et cetera. So I think that's, that's one. And the second one is I think what's very important that you found, I always find great people to work with because I can never have 12 companies on my own.

So I always have great partners who I work with and, uh, to cooperate with, because, you know, for example, when we invest, we never invest. For example, in single founder companies, because having a companies, especially these days requires so much skills that you, you cannot do that on your own. So yeah. I think one thing we've found in unpacking, uh, all the great entrepreneurs on the moonshots podcast is they all build teams around them to execute their ideas, whether it's someone like Jeff Bezos, who.

Builds a team for one singular product vision like Amazon or someone like Elon Musk that builds multiple teams for multiple companies, space X and Tesla, the boring company, et cetera. Yeah. Yeah. And, and what I mean is building a team that's one, but also getting a co-founder. So on the same level, as you both are, uh, to work with you, and then, you know, if you have a co-founder, you don't give him for example, 5% of the chairs, because it's not a co-founder.

No, but then you do when you are three guys and you have 33%, if the guy's not good enough time to replace him, but easy. So also make that tough decisions in that face. That's crucial getting people to put skin in the game together. Yeah. So. Let's let's get into a little bit of how you coach and mentor others.

That must be a huge part of your day because you tell us a little bit about the portfolio. How big is it? And give us a sense of the sort of engagement you've got with founders right now. Yeah. Yeah. Good question. We, we invest money, but also, you know, our own experience and we help these companies on a day to day business.

So we invested currently in, we invested in 15 companies, we saw three. We are currently closing a deal. And, uh, so we have a lot of companies still to manage. Uh, what we do is we manage those companies actively. So that means, you know, when we invest in a company, we make a plan roughly for three months ahead because it's the most important periods when we put money in our money and debt it's gross faster than it did before.

So we have to hire people, et cetera. So then we are involved, you know, on there. I think we speak to these founders, you know, once or two times a week, we meet them. So really very intensive and after three months, then, then it will become less than, and it's, you know, we go to a weekly meeting or biweekly, et cetera.

So we are very active with the founders. And that means for my role that I'm very active as a, as a, as a, as a yeah, more or less a co-founder with the companies. So I have calls and meetings and all day about new funding rounds, potential buyers. Uh, the, the CMO they want to hire, you know, everything, we, we help them.

And also with the network that we have, and also the things of course, that we learned ourselves as entrepreneur. So if you were to abstract across those 15 companies, what is the toughest. Seeing your founders in the portfolio. What's the toughest thing that they have. They're all relatively early stage companies.

Um, what's the thing that they struggle with the most. And tell us a little bit about how, what, what advice you have for them to solve that. I think, I think the biggest struggle is that I have, especially the companies we invest in is that they are most of the time they are so-called bootstrapped company.

So the funded him by himself and then running a company is more or less running your cashflow because the, the, the, the, the speed that your company grows is derived from the cash that you have. And when we put in money and it's roughly a half a million until one and a half million, then we have to speed up the process and change that thinking with the founder.

I think that's the hardest part in our job. So is that because you feel that the stakes got a lot bigger there, that the risks feel much bigger? Is that what the that's one, but I think the most important one is that a. I have to, uh, work a different way than they did before. So if they hire a guy that normally they would really check the salary, if they get the cheapest guy, which on the market, and we began on board, we want the best guy on the market.

And if we have to pay him twice, as much than we are willing to do that, because we know from our own experience that he speeds the process 10, 10 X. So it's a good investment. Yeah. And that thinking that change in thinking, I think that's the most. It's the hardest part in our, in our job, but that's, that's what we discussed a lot with, from someone that's been bootstrapping the whole time to now I actually have resources.

Yep. How so? Just in a followup to that, how do you actually help them have a, like a, sort of a huge paradigm shift? Because that's, I can imagine if you're incredibly proud and you've built it, you've bootstrapped your way there. And then all of a sudden, some guys walking in and say, Spend the money go for it real quick.

And I mean, this is sort of very disruptive to yourself and to all the sort of agree playbooks that you have. What do you, how do you create this change for them? Yeah, I think it's a relation that's one. So when we invest in a company, normally it takes from the first meeting that we have to closing a deal.

It takes four to six months. And in the four to six months, we really get to know the guys that we invest in and we meet them. We meet even their wives. So we have dinner at our homes with a kinder with our kids, you know, giving them a lot of drinks so that we see them in a human behavior at a home behavior, but really hang on down.

So we should tell anyone, whenever you ask to have dinner at someone's house, The good news. He's thinking about investing the bad news. He's going to get you. I just want to make sure they get drunk. You should really be worried now. So I think that's very important. Also build trust, build a relationship.

And during the fair, during the, you know, the four to six months, but you're on what do you, how do you get in going from a to B? Like how do you shift them along? You've got the relationship. So they're now maybe a little bit open to this, but what is the device that you use to help them get there? Ah, we should hire that top guy.

I think that's in talks, that's in analyzing the data that is looking at the company, helping them during the investment phase. Also before we invest also helping them, getting them to learn other people, to learn from their mistakes, et cetera. So just really talking, showing things, learning things, giving them insight in their own business because we analyze the data that they have.

In that company often better than they do herself. So that brings us also the realization that it's, it has a lot of opportunity, but they have to really speed up because the competition is growing for example, much faster as they are. So I think giving them the insights and first is building the relation.

And the third one is, you know, a plan, how to execute it, you know, the three month plan that we work with companies on when we invest and then really execute that plan. So you essentially go from invest. There's a couple of key milestones you invest. Yep. Uh, or does the dinner at their house with the kids in the wine?

Does that happen before the investment? I think that does always, always before the, okay. Then, then you have the aha moment and then you try and shift them into this highly accelerated, um, situation where their whole tempo, the whole rhythm of the business is transformed. Yeah. Okay. Wow. Wow. I want, wanna, I want to get him over for dinner just so I can see what that transformation I'll invite him to the

Come to Sydney. Okay. I'll invite him to the Brown cafe there. Yeah. There you go. With the hopes with the apes. Okay. So we're about to go a wandering into the audience for some, uh, post-game analysis. So a bit of a warning here to the audience, uh, with us in Amsterdam. Uh, we're going to need your help to decode what we just learned from, uh, Yohan.

And, um, I want to take this moment to, to, uh, thank you for inviting us into this world. I feel like there's a whole world to talk about what happens after the three month acceleration. Um, and so maybe in the next time we come here, we can talk about what happens there and getting all the way to those golden moments on the first three, which is when you sell the company.

Great blend. Okay. All right, Chad, Chad is doing free someone in the audience. At the moonshots podcast, we're all about decoding, uh, what great entrepreneurs and innovators are doing. And so I'm actually just curious someone in the audience what's kind of your biggest takeaway or learning from our conversation here with Johann.

Get ready to share. Come on folks. I'm looking for those. I use this one somewhere. One person was entertained. Let's make sure you introduce the individual, the talent at the back. Hello, I'm Micah I'm destined learn. It's always destined learned. So it was really a reminder for me just to do things and not think too much, but just experience.

So that's something I take. Okay, thank you. You're welcome test and learn now for everybody. The test and learn theme has come back a lot for us. Um, you will be amazed at how many people have ideas that have never been tested. Or when they finally, and I actually don't take it. A lot of people even get to actually truly creating a test or an experiment.

Um, the amazing thing is the aha moments you get, um, when you actually put the product in front of a customer and it can just be like a prototype. It doesn't even have to be a full fledged, shiny product. It can be Airbnb is outside the city. Yeah, exactly. And I think the big thing that you've reminded me of is actually.

This test and learn philosophy of prototyping, your ideas, doesn't only live in your professional life. Uh, so I was really inspired to, to, to see how you took thinking from your work as an investor, and you just took it into your personal life. And actually you, you, you had a transformation, not with your co-founder, so to speak, right.

And she was not necessarily so excited about going to the forest. But through the testing and learning, you kind of got there. So that's a great reminder for me is that things that can work, um, in the office ideas for how you can improve things are not necessarily silo, but they can actually, they can cohabitate in your personal life as well.

Fantastic. And thank you to our first insight giver. Thumbs up. Okay. Everybody, would you please show your appreciation for Mr.

and stick around? We have three more amazing entrepreneurs and innovators from right here in Amsterdam. Mike, do you want to hang on? We also have lots of Dutch treats as well. I still have lots of more. Okay. Hopefully this plate is empty by the end. Well, Ooh, easy, easy. Okay. We might need some crowd, uh, audience help as well.

Um, okay. So that's the first of our guests. We're going to move into our second guests now. And, um, what's really interesting is, um, we're now going to kind of go deep into the world of coaching and mentoring, boring systems and habits we're going to talk to, and this is, as I said, too, To Chad yesterday, this is a great adventure in understanding Dutch names.

Um, so our next guest is, um, a coach and a mentor at go fast forward. And so he spends a lot of time actually transforming, uh, entrepreneurs who are trying to build a business and take it to the next level. And I think we've got lots of systems and ideas that will be helpful for all of us in this next interview.

So. Everybody here and online. Will you please welcome to the stage Mr. Martin fun mud.

Okay, Martin, you are like a coach of entrepreneurs. You think so? Yeah. So I, I wanted to ask you, I wanted to pick up on some of the themes that Johann was touching on. Um, Johann Johann was talking about like, Founders have bootstrap their company. And then all of a sudden the world changes there's capital.

But then what's interesting is there's also expectation. That's the big thing that comes with capital. And so everything starts to change. Now, I would love for you to tell us a little bit about when you meet entrepreneurs at the start of your co coaching program. Take us through a little bit where they're at.

And the transformation of where they get to after they've been working with you? Yeah, the, uh, the gophers poor program is meant for scale-ups. So companies with at least 1 million year in revenue, so they're already serious companies, uh, have a good proposition to have a good product, have some customers have an organization, uh, but want to make the next step.

And I think starting a co starting a company is one, but really growing the company is even more difficult. And the companies we talk to and the entrepreneurs that, that we are coaching really would like to make the next step. And I think in essence, there's a lot of theory. Uh, but my role is also to introduce best practices.

I've been an entrepreneur since 2004. I have a lot of experiences and I can share those experiences with all the other entrepreneurs and also make them present, not making the same mistakes that I am, that I made, for example. Um, but I think in this world where you can really share your knowledge and expertise, that can help make them the next step in their entrepreneur.

Uh, Korea. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I'm curious. What's in your mind, what's one of the biggest thing that is holding a company and an entrepreneur back from going, like you said, from 1 million, say to 10 million and how do they get. That 10 X, uh, company, you know, grow, grow to 10 million and then hopefully grow to a hundred million.

What's what's one thing that you've, you've seen that's that's been holding them back. Well, there's a couple of things and I think Johann already addressed some of them as well. I think first, you really need to have a clear plan, right? You need, need to have the big goal and you need to live it every day.

Right? You need to. Have a good plan, write it down, visualize it, and then live the plan and make sure that every day when you're in the office, when you work with the people live, the plan, stick to the plan. Do you often, uh, meet, uh, founders that have done done fine, but are actually. Missing this plan. I mean, how often is that missing from the equation when you meet people?

Yeah. So there, there is not a clear plan or they have several plans, so they don't stick to one plan. Okay. Is that common too late? Just wanting to like boil the ocean as we'd say. Yeah. Well, I think if you talk to entrepreneurs, we always see multiple opportunities at the same time. So most of the time we get distracted.

And I think Johan also mentioned focus. I think what is really important. If you want to grow the businesses, you need to be focused and you really need to focus on what you're good at, because most of the time that's what you really like doing. And you should focus on that and the things you're not good at try to find other people to take care of it.

For example, manage the company, if you really want to be the innovator or, or think of thinking of new ideas. So I think that that's one. Uh, and then also having the right mindset. So making sure, uh, that everybody's aligned that you have a great team, uh, and then challenging each other on a day-to-day basis.

Okay. Well, well, so that's a lot of good stuff, so, uh, let's, let's start with that last one, the challenging of each other. Uh, one of the things that, that I see is that, um, Founding teams and management teams often have all the best intentions. Right. But, um, constructive conversation or even deliberate polarized argumentation to find the best path is something I see a lot of people struggling with it's they don't know how to like.

Say no, that's a crazy idea or that's it? What advice do you have for people that can't have healthy debate conversation around what the business should do? Like, imagine we're stuck there now. We can't have the right conversation. What advice do you have? Well, I think if you're running a company and when you're in a working with business partners, it's like being in a marriage.

Right. And we all know that within a marriage, it's all about communication, right? If you don't, if you can't be open and transparent, of course, then you probably end up in all kinds of discussions or there's no communication. So first of all, you need to create that, um, that level of accountability. And of course a plan can help with that because if you already have a plan, then you can hold each other accountable, say, Hey.

This is the direction. This is our vision as a company, and you're not following the vision. You're not doing what we agreed upon. What's harder for people to have the sense of accountability or the act of holding each other accountable. So is it that everybody knows. You should be doing a thing, but nobody can really call you out on it.

Wait, tell us where it really breaks down. I think a lot of people find it difficult to hold each other accountable, but if you really want to grow the company, that that's something you really need to have. Okay. Yeah. Let's say Chad and I were struggling with accountability. How do you, how do you help us?

Keep each other accountable, like tell us some of the systems or practices that you help these founders put in place. Yeah. Well, I always use some of, some of my experiences. And just to give you an example, I started my company with three founders, but after a couple of years, it didn't feel right anymore because I, it felt like that not everybody was working that hard or it was bringing that entrepreneurial spirit at the table.

And then I thought, Oh, I can just. Maybe look at it for a while and then see what happens. And then I thought, no, I just need to speak up. And . And how did you do it? Tell us, tell us to the moment, just invited them in or a coffee and expressed how I felt. Okay. And at the same time, one of the guys said, well, I'm almost waiting for one and a half years for this discussion, but I never wanted to start a discussion.

So sometimes when you have that gut feeling, you need to express it because some of the other. Body or your other colleagues, you are, the business partners have the same feeling. So speak up. This is my advice. Yeah. Don't leave things unsaid. Yes. Yeah. But isn't it amazing to think when he, when you F when Martin finally.

Shared how he felt that one of your co-founders was sitting on this for a year and a half. Yeah. But how powerful is it that you could find a way of communicating it? Often these conversations are hard because of the conflict and the misinterpretation that comes from these kinds of discussions. How can I have those discussions?

How can our listeners have those discussions without it, any up and up. Arm wrestling. Boxing fight. Yeah. Well, of course, I think that you need to have the, the, the, the rhythm of the business, right? You need to have the weekly, the monthly catch-ups because what I often see is that those meetings, when you really take the time to sit together, look at the strategy, look at the vision of the company because it's busy.

There's a lot of other things to worry about. Then those meetings will. Disappear from the calendar. Those are the first ones. I think those are one of the most important take the time to evaluate on a weekly basis on a monthly basis what's going on within the company. How do you feel? And then of course, if you do that on a regular basis, things don't stay set for a year because you have to pressure.

You have to pressure. Do you speak up? Yeah. It's not just, it sounds like it's not just on the business, but actually how you're feeling as one of the founders as well. I'm not as interested in the business now, or, Hey guys, I want to run and you guys are not moving, you know, fast enough. So let's say I'll go to the audience.

I want to do a show of hands here, who here in their jobs, experiences, moments where you feel things. Right, but you don't always say things when other show of hands, I'm going to put my hand up. That's pretty much everyone in the, so you've got good counsel for all these people. And I think what's really interesting about what you said is it's so true, isn't it?

That when you get busy, the first thing to go with those are the regular empty meeting. I will just skip that this week too busy. Right. But it sounds like what you're saying that ritual. Of being together and expressing that kind of helps. Yeah. Um, now when you, when you work with, uh, these founders, are they your choosing, are they choosing to sign up with you?

They're all coming to you ready, willing to take on the world and to go from 1 million to 10 million, is that generally where they're at and they sign up for the program? Uh, and I'm just one of the mentors or speakers during the program that they serious amount of money for it. So they're all highly motivated and.

Everybody in that class has really want to take the company to the next level as well. So it's different kinds of companies, different types of entrepreneurs and there, but they're all in there to learn from each other and to learn from, from the guests as well. So what are the common challenges that you have?

For founders when they're highly motivated, we've talked about having a clear plan and often, um, what I call part-time entrepreneurs or bedtime entrepreneurs who have lots of ideas, but never actually do anything. Um, but this is very different. These are people that are highly motivated in doing things.

What are the, the most common, big problems that they have? It sounds like. There's a lot of paradigm shifting that you need to do to get from that one to 10. It's not just about working. Yeah. Yeah. So I think one of the most commonly heard things in most discussed teams is people, right? So how do you attract the right people?

And in particular, in the, in the, in the current market situation where it's really difficult to get the right talent, I think everybody's struggling with that. And also, how do you keep the right? How do you keep people? How do you motivate them? Uh, that's something we always discuss. Um, there's a great team, which I'm also presenting around profit and cash management.

Um, I think when you, uh, this is also what your home is that the management of that capital and cash. Yeah. Yeah. I think I've of course, because if you want to grow the company, you need cash. We all know, we all know that, but since they are in the phase of growing, that's something that. They all didn't give a lot of thought of, right, because they were growing the company, thinking of the product and the people.

Uh, but if you want to grow the business, you need the, you need profit and you need cash to do so. So that's a, that's a team that we had. That's the thing that we address as well and where we get a lot of questions. So we try to give them some tools and some best practices and also how they can create the right budgets and how they can stay in line with it as well.

I have, I have a question for you just about. Dutch and Amsterdam entrepreneurship, you know, I'm coming from New York and I've spent a lot of time working with Mike in San Francisco when he was there. What do you feel like makes this people and country and culture a great place for entrepreneurs? Kind of what, what are some of the great.

You know, characteristics of entrepreneurs that you found here that are maybe uniquely, uh, Dutch or from, you know, from people from Amsterdam? Um, well, I traveled a lot in the last 12 months and I found out that when I go to other countries even close by, so in the Nordics or the UK people really appreciate the fact that these people are really direct and sometimes, maybe even a little bit blunt, but really, yeah.

But yes. It's yes and no. It's no, that, so we're always really clear. We don't have a lot of excuses. Um, so I think that's one thing. And then also, um, if you look back at our history, uh, although we are a real small country, uh, as the size of the country, we have a lot of inhabitants and I think for many, many decades ago, we all.

We already traveled the seas and try to connect with other people to trade. So I think it's in our nature to connect with people and try to work with other cultures as well, and really be open. I think the fact that from, I think the most basic rates in school, we are learning our kids to speak English as well.

Right. Uh, so we have the international mindset because our, our great, great ancestors already had to do it because we had to travel the seas. So I think it's the combination of being really international entrepreneurial with a trait mindset. And also just being direct and just say what you think. I think that that's, I think that's a good combination.

I've been here less than two days and I've been really blown away by just everyone here in Amsterdam. Uh, so kudos to all of you. Uh, I mean, how do you say ho Hollanders and other lenders? Neither neither of them yeah. Yeah. Um, okay. Now, so for me, a couple of key themes here, um, I think, uh, the, the trading history of Holland was, um, like I still see that in the sort of open system that it feels like when you work with Dutch people with Dutch companies, I would say, uh, We shouldn't forget how special the Netherlands is for innovation and business.

The first stock exchange in history, the first company in history, the was, um, I actually lived in a Dutch East Indies accompany warehouse. Yeah. That used to store spices and ammunition. Yeah. Which was, was just really special, but what we have to realize that if you just think about the idea of a company, as we know it now is largely what the VOC was with shareholders and all these.

And you've got a notary for being part of the company and then the stock exchange. And we all know the impact that the financial system has on the way in which we do business. I think there's another thing is a very famous. Uh, Dutch politician, uh, VIM cock. And if I remember it's right, it's he had this philosophy of the Daredevil, the third way of bringing people together.

I think you will find that there are very few societies that are engineered for working together and overcoming the fact that it's very dense, very multicultural, but then you walk around and you enjoy such an incredible quality of life despite those conditions. And I just want to remind you when you go to other countries, That a jam full of people often that has a direct correlation with poverty, lack of infrastructure, but it's sort of the opposite here, here in the Netherlands.

And you come to a city like Amsterdam and, you know, I had to enforce a rule that Yost would remember, like in order for me to learn Dutch, I had to ban the English because everyone's language was so good here. Everyone was so willing to speak English. I was like, I'm never gonna get anywhere with a Dutch, but I was threatened.

You might want to tell people about this. I was threatened with a week with the Nunez in foot. Okay. Okay. That's tough. Can you, can you explain to our audience, particularly those that are online? What does that mean? So in the Southern part of the Netherlands, we have a, it's an old monastery. And if you really want to speak a foreign language and you don't want to take a one year course, you can go to the monastery for one week.

And there's no connection with the outer world. You're just in the monastery and with the nuns. And, uh, and they can teach you any language within one week. So especially if you want to. Live abroad work abroad, and you're not familiar with the specific language you can, you can go in there and at least the basic, right.

What do you think guys? Next moonshots podcast. Rams. And we send, we send Chad from Tinder. Lunacy. Yeah. As a filmmaker, you could probably make a documentary about it as well. It sounds very interesting actually. You'd be totally up for it. Okay. Now, now, before we let you go, Maritain we forgot to ask you about which does looking forward to it, which Dutch delicacy.

So, so let me get up the list. So I get all the names. Exactly. Correct. Thai. We got the titer. Yeah. Specalist spec glass. Yeah. Paper noting, Hey, he doesn't need the Nunez drop drop drop. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So help us out here. Maritain which is European. So we already had to drop yours. I really fancy them, but I think we, we spoke a little about, about Dutch heritage our past.

And I think in particularly this time of a year, when we are celebrating Cynthia class, which is a typical Dutch. Big events for the children. Of course, I have to pick the paper notes because we only eat them from, let's say early November until the 5th of December. Uh, so it's, it's a typical Dutch delicacy and only we only have this time of year.

So the paper notes. Okay. There we go. All right. So I feel like our boy from Brooklyn is going to jump out there into the audience again. So I want you to get your thinking caps on it. And I see. A number of Finstas drinking beer up the back there. I can see vaulter. Is it drinking beer and RJ is drinking beer.

So I'm sure they've got some good questions. Um, so here's the thing, Chad, Scandic be looking for people who want to share the biggest learning or insight they had from listening to Martin. So let's see some, so shawl, here we go. Just. Second row and all. So I think it's, first of all, hang on. Who are you?

You have to install it. Who is this person? Hello, everybody. Raise hands. That don't know me. Um, so I'm, uh, the advisor to, uh, to the guys and the girls from moment one. And I'm very thrilled to be here. It feels like home. Um, do my question. Um, I've not done the question, the observation, um, I think it's all about transparency and honesty when it comes to the relationship between co-founders and.

Management of the board kind of guys and girls. Um, and I, what I still have as a question. Yeah, but I don't know whether it's the station is, um, your role in, um, facilitating that it's also one maybe towards your own, even later on over a beer, uh, how to create an environment to stimulate that transparency, openness and honesty.

I would be very curious to hear about your vision on that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's a good question. And, uh, I think there's not just one answer to that as well. Uh, I think in essence, it's all about trust, right? And I think I w like, uh, like I said, early on in the interview, when you're in the company and you have a co-founder or a business partner, or co-owner.

I think you should treat it as a marriage, right? And you need to have that say mindset because you spend most of the time of day working on that big goal is trying to grow the company as well. So it's, you need to have that level of trust, right? You need to find it. And if there's no dentist, if there's no trust and that's of course the first, if you need to work on, um, I think a second, one thing that can be really, really helpful, of course, it's get a mentoring.

Okay, don't do it by yourself. I think when I wanted to grow the company with one of the founders, when we really decided to go. Uh, had just the two of us, we brought in two mentors because we said, okay, we can't do it alone. We need some help from outside as well. So I always tell people it's about dare to ask right there to ask for advice.

Mentors can be really, really helpful, especially if they're a little bit outside the business as well. This can be the, the, the guys, the, the women that can ask you all kinds of nasty questions to challenge you. I think that's what you need to be challenged right then that, that that's really important.

So can I just make sure we capture this learning? You're saying that the, the, the. Impact of an external advisor is in the fact that they can have a little bit more freedom to ask tougher questions. Yeah. And do you think that's because they're not involved on a daily basis, so they don't have all the bias that comes with being an employee there.

They have a little bit of distance to say, come on. That really, wasn't great. And they're not scared of losing their job. There is just a. Open feedback and they are allowed to ask you with questions because then they're not part of the business. Right. And I think that is sometimes what we forget. We sometimes we are too focused and it's good that people from the outside ask little kind of other questions, which you already forgotten about.

Well, and what's really interesting between what both you and Johann is saying, is this, this trading off between focus and perspective all the time. Yeah. And that sounds to me to be one of the greatest, and I'm looking at co-founders here. Who've been up all night finishing products, but having. Having the ability to zoom out, zoom in and zoom out and shift between the different modalities that come with being a founder.

That's why we love it. Maybe sometimes it's a little challenging, but we like a challenge. We do. Yeah, we do. All right, everybody. Would you please give it up for margin? The super coach?

Okay. I know we've got more and more guests arriving at the back, so people are welcome to. Join in the room and come on in, um, we're halfway through. Um, can I send you back out in the audience, Jay grabbed the mic? Um, I want to go and ask, who's got some thoughts on this idea between focus and perspective, who else here is finding that a big thing in their role focus perspective, who here is seeing that in their role.

Let's have a look around here. Oh, there's a, there's a little hand-raising going here. There's a little Foundr over here. Um, don't forget to introduce yourself. Introduce yourself. My name is Dave. Hey, Dave, go founder. Now we, uh, have been building the fin products, which going to look at later on today and I think, um, my perspective.

On the focus perspective, I think would be mainly that, um, if you are building one specific things, very simple to get into a tunnel, to only fix a certain element because you're working on it like every day and it really helps to have other people around you, which we had, which was really helpful to get actually make sure you also get the.

Yeah, just this other perspective on things. And it also really helps you just speak a lot to your clients, for example, because they also could be kind of mentors for the product that you've built. So I think it's very, the balance is very interesting how to continuously move between those two elements, because if you're only too much into perspective parts and working with a small team, you're not going to build the product either.

So. That's a bit, I think the biggest challenge to, to, to solve. Great. Thank you guys. Give it up for Dave. I love that idea of having clients as mentors, because then you can have that client and product focus, but then you have people from outside the company. Um, that are giving you that feedback. Good idea, auntie.

Yeah, I really liked that because we, we get very excited about our own ideas. There's actually a scientific process called the endowment effect where we get so in love with our own ideas, we forget that in customers are not in love with our ideas at all. In fact, what's really interesting is that end-users consumers they're in doubt, they are.

Uh, very partial to something that we call the status quo. So whenever you propose a new product or service in the world, customers are instantly looking at the switching costs, the, the, the trade off of what you're asking. So you have your shiny thing and you're like, woo, we got it. We got it. And you're, you're absolutely convinced the world is going to love it.

But actually the reality is that customers are not in love with it at all. In fact, you're even lucky to have their attention, the most scarce resource in the universe. You're lucky to have their attention for a brief second. And at that point that you do manage to get their attention. They're literally like.

What's this going to cost me, like how much, like, what do I get? And like, how do I, how do I, if I do this, how much work is it going to be? So the classic thing is here. Um, if you look at you're an iPhone user, and I say to you, I have an Android phone. That's really good. The first thing you're going to go.

Oh, my contacts sync are, they don't use iMessage. This is all what we call switching costs. Okay. So the there's always this trade off going on. And so this is philosophy, particularly in Silicon Valley, about 10 X and the reason that you will always find me yabba, yabba, yabba 10 X, this and that is it's a very nice rule.

You should make something 10 times better than today's solution. And it's actually proven, there's a guy. You can check it out on Google. His name's John Gonville at Harvard business school. And he does spend his time studying the degrees of which how many times better there's a product actually need to be to launch successfully.

And he actually, and this is a nice little secret that you weren't not, he actually in his study. Found that it needs to be nine times better. So he runs over to Google in the early two thousands and he presents his work to them. And one of my old colleagues was in the audience. This is Tom G and uh, all these people are there and he says, Bob, you've got to be nine times better.

And all the Google guys, and this is like Google X, you know, the guys that do all the moonshots. They were onto something. Um, they do the moonshot stuff and, and, uh, so, so John says, well, it needs to be nine times better. And he looked at why all these companies had failed in technologies had failed. And he actually has a formula for why it should be nine times.

But the Google guys are like, Nine X. It doesn't quite sound very good. So they just added a whole new factor, then put it up to 10 X. So all the founders out there, if you thought nine X was hard enough, Google just raised the bar to making a 10 X, but there is a real truth in it that switching costs are massive for users.

So for all of the entrepreneurs in our audience, for all of the creators, all of the people that really want to do something great in the world, go on that mission. But you have to know this one thing that as much as you love your product, that your customer loves the status quo loves it, hates change, hates change.

So you need to come up with something that is so remarkable. So remarkable that it will have this attraction it's naturally so good at addressing a problem, but it's so much better than today that they will, they will climb mountains to get to that area. Yeah. I'm going to plug our very first episode of the moonshots podcast on Elon Musk, because I think he embodies that.

Uh, 10 X mindset. And if you just listen to him talk, you can hear everything that he does at all of his companies. He's thinking in. X. So if we improve the efficiency of the motors, uh, with batteries for X, then, okay. We're closer to 10 X. And then if we, uh, decrease the cost of the batteries by two X, okay.

So then we're at this factor, everything he thinks about is getting to that 10 X, because he knows that a company like Tesla is only going to be, uh, effective and scale. If. We can move all of these people that are on traditional gas powered vehicles to fully electric vehicles. So if you want to check out the Ilan show, just go to moonshots.io.

You can hear that, that there's actually one clip that we took up, uh, Elan, where he does the formula. I cannot stress how important that is. If you want to know what getting to tenants looks like he gives it in one of these talks. It actually gives him where he recorded it. So it was fantastic. Okay. So now we're into the second half of the show and we're going to do a big switch now because we're going to get into some hardcore infrastructure talk.

We're going to get into the world of laying fiber. You know, the amazing thing is that we create so much data. Every single day that we kind of forget that all these software and all these applications are actually driven by the fact that we have nodes and hubs, glass, fiber, dark fiber, all of these things running all around the world.

So we're very excited to bring to you when a Hollins gurus in infrastructure. Would you please from KPN please? Welcome Peter, please. Yeah.

Now, um, we're going to be a little bit more organized with you, Peter. So we're going to remember to ask you for your, for your favorite Dutch delicacy. So tell us about what you see here and what gets your vote. My phone gets, uh, the speaker last. Yeah. Best buy skin, uh, display glass is, uh, especially, it's not only a cookie for me, but I also used to put it on my, uh, bolted on my bread when I was a child.

Hang on, hang on. So you have bread? Yeah, that's meant to be the sandwich bit, but you put a cookie in between the blood of bed. A butter. Oh yeah. Ooh, that's good. Two slices of speak glass actually. Was your creation or is this like a national pastime? Oh, my goodness. You have lots of friends in the audience of this insight.

My children nowaday use speak you lows, and that's sort of a, there's a spread like a spread. Yeah. And now you say the Dutch are a bit weird. Come on. Like who puts the cookie into us? I'm going to have to go buy some bread and butter and put some speculate, getting half of the taking home, Mike and chip.

Well, thank you. We have, we've got a vote for speaker last. We've had a vote for the paper notes in the drop is. Sorry, Ronald, do you know what that's leaving? That's going to leave. Yeah. Yeah. You can blame boss. That was all his idea. Okay. Um, so I think it's really interesting, um, to, to hear from you, Peter you're, you're not only in this world of infrastructure, um, but part of your backstory is that working for, uh, Not only the largest telco here in, in the Netherlands, but it would have to be one of Europe's biggest telecommunications operators.

Correct. One of there are bigger because there was a lot of, uh, joints for yep. There are a lot of alignment between the telcos, but it's one of the largest still independent telco. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, the special thing that you're often doing is working on these big infrastructure projects, but you're also going in sometimes to companies that have been acquired by KPN.

Now this, for us as a sort of cultural moment in innovation. Is dripping with all sorts of interesting ideas. The first thing is like incomes the infantry with their flags. Oh, he comes the KPN. So we want to talk about that. But the other interesting thing is culturally, how you can build bridges into new cultures and how you do that.

So we've got a lot to unpack with you, but tell us about, take us to a moment when you're thinking about. Uh, the first day, when you walk into a new company that KPN is working with and you want to connect to the leaders in that organization, tell us how you do it. How do you walk into a situation like this and get everybody aligned or to use a good Dutch saying to get all the boats sailing in the right direction?

What techniques, what practices are you in? How do you do this? Yeah, there's a very good question because that's, that's always the challenge, uh, to get, um, connection to, to the, to the team and to the people in, into the company, because there's a lot of, uh, resistance and, uh, there's a lot of, there are a lot of questions about what's what's going on and what will be the new future for us and for our company.

And. Do I still get, uh, we'll we'll stay with within the job. Yeah, of course. It's a very important question. Um, I think it just starts with connecting just a one-on-one connection, uh, get conversation, get, uh, um, yeah, give a lot of answers to the questions and, uh, if you don't have the answer. Just say that you don't know the answer yet.

If you have the answer, it depends a little bit on who you speak to, but, uh, I'm, I'm also a very favorite of being very transparent, uh, over debt. So, so you're saying we have an emergent theme, I think for this show. It's feeling like transparency is, is quite big debit, but let's get into it. You're walking in there and you're trying to create this transparency, Peter, but you've basically laid up an environment where people are like in extreme emotional situations, either fight or flight.

Right. And so yeah, you can say, Hey, let's have a cuddle and get around the campfire and sing kumbaya, but people are a little bit worried about this situation. How do you, how do you actually get them to. Become easy and then make those connections. I think it's also a praise on what they have achieved. So you, uh, uh, KPN acquires a lot of smaller companies and they have achieved a lot.

So you, uh, you appraised it and you say that people have done a very good job. Uh, and that's one of the reasons Kepian buys it. So that gives him a little bit proud and that's important. And that you also are very. Keen on still get all the assets what's in that company that you want to keep that. And the assets is of course, yeah.

It's a real assets material, but it's also about people and about knowledge and about how they, um, uh, um, Are acting on the market. So, um, but they also know that normally you go into, uh, synergies, economies of scale and, uh, reorganizations. Um, of course you, you can say, yeah, we're not there yet. Uh, it's that's a process or you, you step into the process and try to.

To get people in that process. Normally they understand, and sometimes you have to make the tough decisions and it's better to do that quite fast. So tough decisions. I like getting into moments of tough decisions. So I actually have, yeah. Following up on that, um, many of our listeners are running their own small companies and, and our bootstrappers, uh, but many of them also work for large corporations.

Yup. How have you found. How do you work in an agile way in a big humongous company? You know, how can you work more like a startup and be more agile? Because I know that that's something that a lot of our listeners are, are struggling with is, you know, I'm a product manager or a VP at a company. How can I get my company to work in a more agile way and be more responsive to, to make the right decisions?

Yeah, this is a good question. I think a lot of, uh, corporates companies, um, I know in the Netherlands are dealing with it. Ah, how can we be more agile? Uh, they are looking a lot of, not a startup companies to Spotify who are using the agile, uh, Way of working. And I have to say a lot of, uh, corporate companies use agile way of working and, uh, my own experience also that, um, we have, uh, used it as a way of working into regional markets, uh, approach, uh, because you need the whole organization.

So not only the marking in seals or the product management or the chain management, but also the customer service. Also the retort organization, also the engineers. And you want to make, if you want to roll out fiber, for instance, in a city, then you want to, uh, get all the teams together in the approach of rolling out fiber and commercially, uh, are successful in that city.

Uh, and ditch. That's a very good way to do that on the agile way of working. So every week, um, Uh, onto, uh, in, in same room, stand-ups, uh, see where you are. Uh, what's your responsibility? What did you reach? Uh, what are your questions? Where do we need extra help, uh, and get everyone involved. And, uh, it works.

Okay. But, um, this to me is like, Uh, big, uh, idea. In fact, transitioning teams from perhaps waterfall into agile, it sounds easy. It sounds easy, but, um, massively challenging because you have to give a lot of supposed certainty when you work in a waterfall basis. Now we have a nice big. A book that's about this thick and it says every little thing that we're going to build, and you have to give that away and trust in the process.

But you were saying something really interesting about getting everyone on the same page for agile. Let's get into that a little bit. How do you do that? And particularly on infrastructure projects, I mean, allegedly work on software with a little bit of hardware, IOT stuff, like you're talking about having a guy digging up the road and putting like, how do you get everyone on the same page for that?

Uh, well, it's, um, let's in the it world agile way of working is common also within the corporate. Uh, but especially in the more commercial on the more commercial side, uh, it's quite new. Um, personally I just went into a, a sort of conference. It was at a, at the bank and a Rabobank and then the, um, uh, Southern land, subtle entity.

That's the guy who just, um, Introduce agile way working, uh, EME. He had a presentation and there was 80%. Was it in some commercial guys? And I was really amazed by his, um, yeah. He's. His ideas and how it works. And, uh, I thought, why not for the commercial side as well, because it's a very constructive way of working that you're on the same page and that you make impact.

And then, uh, what we already said is just. Starting to do it with theme. Did you start to do it with one team where it is a lot of, um, yeah, complex complexity around, uh, I started with one team and eventually, uh, with a colleague of mine he's also, uh, here, uh, Somewhere over there. Uh, we started with, uh, eventually, uh, eight or nine teams working on the edge way and just, um, made it through, uh, as our working.

Okay. So you managed, you managed to go from like one unit across. Up to nine different units working in the same way with agile. Okay. And so I just want to take you back this, uh, for everyone who's in the audience, this is the book. Yeah, exactly. That Peter was talking about. It's called scrum by Jeff Sutherland and JJ Sutherland.

I thoroughly recommend it. It's called scrum. Uh, it's absolutely the godfather of agile thinking. Um, and it's, it's so useful to hear Jeff Sutherland speak. Yeah, that's great. Um, Also, I want to say though, uh, I don't know if you know this about Jeff, but he actually was in yummy and he implemented scrum in the army.

If you're numb, he was as a, as a pilot. Yeah. Now one of the interesting things for everybody is what you won't know is that Peter also was in the army. So you just built the best segue for this show I've ever seen. What did you, what do you use in these big agile projects with KPN? Is there anything that you learned when you go back to your time in the military?

Is there anything that you see yourself using and making sure people turn up on time? Maybe? I don't know, but what lessons did you learn? What ride back then? Because you're actually coaching cadets. In in the military. Uh, what's it like, do you use any of those practices now when you're, when you're working with?

Um, the only, no, the only thing is that I just ask the cadets, how much will, uh, an assisting cost just to make them a little bit aware of the budgets going on in the army. Yeah. Um, yeah. I think it's important that two people are a little bit, you know, uh, aware of, of cost and cost minded. Um, but actually it was a long time ago for me.

Data was in the, in the army. I just, uh, was a sort of a teacher in need and, uh, uh, for the. Uh, for, for the cadets, just to learn some economics and into an organization. And, uh, it was a great time, but I didn't use a lot of my, uh, experience right then, uh, or the other hand, we had a lot of different teachers of different, um, let's say, uh, disciplines.

The agile way of working is of course, multi disciplinary way of working. So you could say that's a, that's something we have in common. Right? So now I want you to imagine that all of us want to employ agile as a way of working and we're sitting here, like, how do you do it? What if you're only allowed to give us one set of advice to implement agile?

And this really moved means moving to a much more dynamic way of working very process collaborative way of working, lots of scrums, lots of Springs. So those good keywords, what's the one, one piece of advice that you would give to anyone thinking about it. You just start with one team and get a good coach who is really into the discipline of the way of working of scrum.

So if you, uh, start with one team and a good coach, because it seems like a very flexible way of working, but in fact, it's a very disciplined way of working, right. Um, so you need to really. Um, yeah, work on that scrum method. A coach is very helpful. So that's one advice, the hand, so that, so I'm, I I'm, I'm deconstructing this one, small teams start just with eight people.

Okay. Um, make sure you have a good coach. Yep. Okay. Who really understands scrum and agile. Yup. And then you have a product owner and the scrum master and you not, you, you, you, uh, have the team, uh, ready. And then you see within two, three weeks, you, you, you notice a lot of enthusiasm. Wow. And then suddenly there's a moment that the people outside the teams who are not into that scrum a way of working, they are very curious.

They want to work as well because the team is so and to share stick. Uh, what are they doing? Yeah. And then you get the second team and then you came maybe the third team and still gets the coaches and the kickoffs with the team. And we were going to do this and. Then it, then it will work because the results are coming as well.

When you build the nineteens with a lot of what you were doing was, um, as you would build a scrum team, you were kind of almost trying to make it contagious within the organization. It sounds like you're looking to create this, uh, new way of working, but get everyone excited about this new approach and then almost letting the, the contagion spread.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And, but it's, uh, There is there is because, uh, I was in a domain, which was a separate domain in a corporate organization and bigger organization. Yeah. You have also your, um, to the governance of an organization and there's there. Isn't, there is a moment that you have your now.

Agile way of working and that it's, it's linked to the normal governance. Uh, it's not. Uh, and that, that is not what you want, that, that you have sort of two governance going on in the same organization, confusing. So, and then you really need to decide. Are we going to do the next step with the yeah. With more departments in your organization and eventually the whole organization and yeah, that, that makes it quite more difficult than a startup.

Yeah. I feel like that's, that's also for the, for the next broadcast we do from AMSA. And then we have to go from, from one team to one organization to like, Five companies, how we kind of build this. Okay. We're going to send you out into the crowd. Chad, grab your mic. So this is the moment where we're going to put all of you guys on the hotspot for transparency, huh?

For new ways of working in terms of agile. So who here had some aha moments when Pete plays year. Was waxing lyrical about agile and transparency. Yeah. Anybody? Yeah. We got some people back here. Who's got some thoughts up the back there. I can see lots of what did you learn or pick up from our conversation with Peter?

Anyone? Uh, Oh, here we go. Here we go. So introduce yourself serum. Um, also, uh, one of the fellows of Finn. Yeah, there you go. Um, I think, well, one of the things that, uh, Peter highlighted, uh, um, is that there's a difference between, uh, applying scrum and practicing scrum. Um, I think that's a very, very important one.

So basically, uh, and make sure that you're all aware of what you want to achieve. Applying these methodology methodology. Uh, and once you are on the same page, you're good to go. I think that's yeah, an important learning. Nice one. Thank you. Okay, everybody, would you please give your welcoming your rewarding?

Thank you to Pete.

Okay. So we have had three fabulous guests. Um, Chad, we've heard some emerging themes. What have you got on your themes so far from Yohan and the whole crew? What are you got on the line? Favorite part of unpacking entrepreneurs. And innovators is, uh, these, uh, recurring themes that emerge. And I think tonight one of the biggest ones they resonated was transparency and not being afraid to, to speak your mind, uh, both as a co-founding team, but also, you know, within the company.

Um, And then also the importance of outside perspective and mentorship and coaching. Yeah, that was big. That was great. I think that can help foster more transparency. If you have someone on the outside kind of looking at it. Those are, I think my favorite so far has been transparency. That's something, I think that a lot of us who are starting or running companies could really learn.

I thought I thought a good one was having customer as a coach. Right. Having that, uh, accountability. So, um, we are now ready to introduce to you our last guest, our very last guest. And, uh, it's really exciting because, uh, we have somebody who is a long time television and media. Guru and executive, and he's the big cheese at really very much the entrepreneurs Bible here in the Netherlands.

It's really the, go-to the fast company, the Wyatt here in the Netherlands. So I would love you all to show a big Amsterdam. Welcome to Orono old tear forwards.

Okay. So Ronald you're in the hot seat because you're going to help us close the show, bring it all together. Um, and, uh, you've got to realize that the three of us have sort of the only thing between the audience and having more beer. So it's a precarious, that's always a good challenge, but thank you for having me on the show.

Thank you. Um, so I want to ask, first of all, Um, you're in the business of ideas. Um, you're in the business, you don't lay a glass fiber. So what's really important is that you build a business around the ideas that you inspire people. So tough question, but how, how do you do that? How do you get ideas that inspire the world?

Um, well, before you have ideas, you have, you must have the right people. And I think in every person, DAS, someone which is very creative, but you have to give them the floor, you know, you have to give them space to grow and, um, I think, uh, most of the time, uh, companies are not able to look at the person, but just at the business and they forget about what you would like to do in your life, you know, and really what you love, not only about your payments or your next job, but what's in the core of your interest.

So that makes you, um, That puts you in a really interesting situation, because not only do you need to have the mental capacity to think about what's happening in the world with technology and entrepreneurial-ism, but you also need to be very tuned into your team. Yeah, that's true. So how do you, and this is so great because what Johann was talking about is helping founders building teams.

If you look at the agile transformation, Uh, the Peter talked about, uh, what Martin talked about with coaching founders. All of this high-tech world full of data is coming back to. People. And that's been a huge theme of our show. Uh, what you, what you really bring about is this very interesting idea. Ed Catmull, who's the CEO of Pixar talks about creating safety as the primary role that he has.

For great ideas to exist. Yeah. Um, so now in your channeling, your inner ed Catmull, how do we do this? You walk into the office and you want to create this environment. That's focused on the people and what they're trying to achieve and helping them grow. How do you, how do you do that? How do you unlock that?

Well, if you, um, if I look back to the time that I worked for television, um, You know, it's it's it's it starts with a good atmosphere. Of course. What you, what you said, but it's. You have so pinpoints the dot on the horizon, you know, and you have to share your thoughts about what the product or the show in Yens could be, but there's a lot of roads to get there.

And, you know, it's, it's, it's not a process that you do in one hour. You know, it takes time, you know, to guide you on the mall. Um, I worked from, I should have seen on my CV, you know, it's very inspirational to work with this guy, but it's also, mind-blowing like, wow, shit. I have to think something within two hours.

Right. Otherwise I got fired or, yeah. Did you, were you really feeling that pressure to. To produce ideas that quickly. Yeah. Sometimes. Um, well for example, uh, once I got, um, a Juris guy and we got a show from the States and I got to the order to make in just 24 hours. It's a show for the Netherlands, but which wasn't that we, you know, uh, stole it from the other auto hang on.

So you, so you get the call, make me a television show in 24 hours. Yeah. You know, it, it was like, we sold already 70 episodes, but, um, it's a game show, but yeah. I told him something about this and that, but it doesn't work good now. So I'll just make something. Well, th that's the bad stories of course, but, um, you know, that, that, that happens, but it's, it's, it's really difficult to, you know, I always say like, if you, uh, want to, uh, create an a game show, it's not difficult to do the introduction, the middle part, but the, the, the, the final episode, that's where it's, you know, desperate or crux.

So how do you ensure that you've got the right people. Uh, working in the right way to get that job done. What do you do as editor in chief? What, tell us about some of the, the tactics, the behaviors that you employ that enable your people, your teams to achieve that. What are you deliberately doing to ensure success?

One, uh, one of the thing I want to say first is if you look at television, you look for the people who likes to be creative. You know, they don't have any boundaries. You know, sometimes it's are the people who are on the street, who you think, uh, almost lunatic, but that the best one, I think, you know that from the, the, the advertising industry as well.

But if you look at, at e-commerce, you know, when I started a six and a half years ago, The first thing you do is look at all the people and ask them the same question. Who are you? Why do you want to be in a few years? And, and, and what one you do in life and we're dead in mind. Uh, you can decide if somebody is on the right track or right position or not.

And sometimes you have to say, okay, you like it on the position you have, but you better move on because it's not the right track for you. And that's just profiling someone, my gut feeling. I sometimes say to my wife, I don't know where I learned this, but you know, it's the same if I have to do an interview, you know, and for example, a few months ago with the CTO of AliExpress, I don't know the guy, I just have mailed him.

And I said, we want to do a cover, shoot an interview with you. And within a few minutes, he is in China. It was 11 o'clock at night and in the Netherlands, what three in the afternoon. And we have to become friends within just a few minutes. Otherwise we have for 45 minutes and then it ends up so that that's always a nice spot to, uh, to profile somebody, to be comprehense and get gets.

More information than just, you know, what the press people also tell you. That's not the article you want to know. We build models of like each of your team members. Are you like calculating what they're looking for? Uh, what their hopes and dreams are. Do you feel like you've almost got like a, a mental library of all the dreams and hopes of your team?

Yeah, but that's, you know, I'm, I'm passionate about communication and psychology and media is all about those things. And it's, it's also like when I started that the immerse, you know, we're doing, uh, brains online and events. We had the biggest on e-business in the Netherlands. We always say we like the Wyatt or the foster company from, from here, but it's, it's it's um, It's always about, I forgot your question now.

So you know, this, this where we're going is, um, unlocking all of these practices within your people. You've got like this library of all of their hopes and dreams. Are you constantly checking against that? Are you, are you constantly saying, Oh, I've got to make sure Chad. I know he really wants to do this.

He's motivated by this. Are you literally checking in on that, that library of, of the, their dreams. Yeah. Yeah. But most important thing is that you have to look, uh, what is that biggest, special? You know, we, we sometimes have people in melons and they write a letter like, Oh, I want to work for you. I always say like, I don't care.

You know, we want to have people who are passionate about the industry. So you want to know the next story or the next. Uh, evolution and you really know the facts, you know, writing, everybody can write, you know, but it's about really being interested in, in, in people in industries, which is, which is interesting because.

Finding people with passion is something that some of our other guests talked about. What are you looking? What's a sign that someone is super passionate and driven, but say you were interviewing chatter. I, what are you looking for? What's a signal that maybe some of the entrepreneurs here can be looking for when they're.

Interviewing people, what should we be on the lookout for, for talented and passionate people? You know? Um, the, the metaphor I use is, uh, I always. Uh, talk business wise, but also personally. So most of the time, like the guy from Ali within five minutes, he will know that I have a wife, two children, what their habits are, et cetera, et cetera, to just make him feel comfortable.

And I do the same with my employees, you know, it's not like, okay, I'm the boss, but it's like, I, I have also my issues, you know, and I want to be one of them. And then. Yeah, we've got a connection, you know, it's, it's almost, to me like the transparency thing is coming back again, being the, being yourself, being who you really are and not trying to, you know, wear a fancy time, pretend you're the boss.

I think that's the best thing you can do because, um, you know, it's the same for myself is like, uh, five years ago where it was like people saying, Oh, what you're doing Ronald, the market wants specialists and your generalist, you know? And then there was emails like, wow, your CV is great. You know, in about five years, the world will be changed again.

So I always say also to my children, I introduce them now, but it's added so girls, um, but you know, you have to do what you love and, um, the worlds will change every day. You know, um, you don't know what's will happen. And it's also the same. If you S if you look at our audience, our readers or our visitors, you know, it's not like, Oh yeah.

W we must be on Facebook, know what is their mindset? What's what's going on. Right. If you know what they are thinking, then you can be ahead of the next step. It's the same with the text messages. You know, everybody was like, no, we don't want to have that. But in the end, we are very happy with it. So it's always about, well that point.

Yeah, I would love it sounds like you're not only have to get into the minds of your own people, but being a media company also understand what's going to resonate and be popular with people. I'm, I'm curious, kind of how you go about finding the trends. Of topics and people and companies to profile that is kind of ahead of where, right where the industry is.

Um, I'm just, I'm curious, kind of about your process and how you do that research and find what, what, yeah, because that's going to make e-commerce, you know, be out there because what's interesting about this question is y'all the tastemaker so how does. How does it taste maker? Exactly. Like build the zeitgeists.

Yeah. Um, you know, it's, it's something every minute of the day. Also in my private life, you know, you're always looking for the next big thing. And, you know, I always say I don't like reading, but I'll read a lot of stuff, but mostly on Flipboard and that kind of things, but, you know, it's, it's that sense I want, I said to you before, I'm a sort of digital trend watcher.

And it's sort of disease almost, you know, it's like, yeah, desk four is coming on, you know, what can we do with forests? And you try things yourselves, like Joanne said before, um, you talk to people, you just, you know, you, you, you say to someone, well, I don't think there's going to work and they're going to say, yeah, it's going to work.

Oh yeah. I'm great. I also also, you know, but it's, it's always like, you know, like a trend to watch her and, and also with the mindset of our audience in mind. Yeah. It's a, you know, what will be the impact of it, et cetera, et cetera. And then we make content of it. So we've talked a bit about the process of attracting and keeping talent, and what's really refreshing is in this world of data and software and startups.

But it's still about the people. It's still about the way in which you interact with the way you collaborate with people. And you're doing all of this within the setting of Amsterdam. And I think it's really exciting to hear from you. What makes Amsterdam so special? Why is it that we're in a city that's full of creativity and innovation?

Why is that? So well, um, um, one of the other guests already mentioned the few C mentality, of course, but I was raised in the East of the Netherlands and it's not a big difference between there and Amsterdam, but I live now for 25 years over here. It's like, you know, the atmosphere, you can be yourself. You know, it's like, nobody will say are or blame you for something it's like, you can sort of self employment.

I say self-development and um, I think if you have several people have that in one office, you'll get a, uh, um, Can get creativity until big Heights. You know, you know that yourself, I think when you were working here and, um, also it's, we are a small country, you know, it's always like, Oh, we are going to conquer the world.

But in the end, we are just a very small country, right. As, as big as barriers. So we have to be very creative, um, with a little bit of money. So you think there's actually some natural constraints? Um, I, you know, I hear this story a lot that, because Dutch I've always been forced into a trading mentality as a small nation.

You've built bridges, virtual bridges to the rest of the world. And that still seems from what you're saying to be alive today. Yeah. But we have to, you know, it's like, If you're so small, um, you have to be smart again, but, um, and I think if you look five years ago, well, when we said we are from Amsterdam, as well as okay.

You know, it's sex drugs and that kind of thing. But I feel in about, well, the last year it's like, wow, cool Amsterdam. I think it's because of the geographically place. Um, and, and, and it's just a shift, you know, it's like people see like, wow, that's a nice place. Um, I, you see it, it also allows the last night I was on the TV.

There was like, the tourism in all of Europe was going down except for the Netherlands. And Amsterdam was not like 5% up, but more. And I was like, why, why is that? You know, for us it's normal, but there's something magically or something. Yeah. There's, there's, there's definitely a very magical. Cozy as well, it's cozy.

And I think that you feel the openness culturally, you feel the openness. I always say that the greatest challenge of living in Amsterdam is that you're not expected to be anyone other than yourself. Yeah. But that is often the greatest challenge of all. Um, so what I want you to help us do now, chatty you ready to go out into the audience?

Okay. So this is where we're going to mix it up a little bit. I didn't tell Chad about this. We're going to ask the audience to tell us. Why they think Amsterdam is such a great city for being creative, right. It's such a hub of innovation. So who has some thoughts on what makes Amsterdam so special? Yeah.

Who wants, who wants to brag on your city? Come on. There's gotta be someone out here. Why is Amsterdam so great. Yeah. Okay. Don't forget to introduce yourself. So good afternoon, everybody. I am the father of Yoast, France. My name I was born and raised up in Amsterdam in the West side of the Amsterdam. What makes Amsterdam's especially Amsterdam has a history.

I heard you talking about the VOC. That's for the Netherlands. Very, very important. And it has a history why we can be a proud to be, uh, to come to come be an Amsterdam or that you have to earn that. You know what I mean? It's kind of a trophy. So, if you want to earn that, you have to study about Amsterdam, just face it, the Bronco face.

Then you can meet a lot of people who has talking peoples on the neighbor or et cetera, that makes you rich about the history of Amsterdam it has to doing with shipyards. They haven't what means the dump truck? Everybody's talking about a dump truck. Iraq is a place to be where you can go with your boat and they putting on the underside for waiting for the next transportation, et cetera.

This is the history of Amsterdam and I'm still Brown. I'm no living no more in Amsterdam, dumbass, stilted. I'm proud to be. An Amsterdam. Yay. All right. Who else? Who else has some ideas to offer? M Y M Sam is a creative and innovation hub. Don't be shy because Chad has been known to force people to speak.

Look at him. He's a big brutal guy, but also has got some thoughts. Why is answer Dan so great. Hi, it's Steven. I would also say because of the honesty of the people living there, two people, if you look, if you look strange, people tell you, you look strange. If you look nice, people will tell you look nice.

And if you have a good idea, people will tell you, you have a good idea. If you have a shitty idea, you will, people will tell you change this and this and this, or help you to make it better. Okay. So openness, I think there's a great Dutch saying a true friend. Uh, in Holland tells you when you have spinach on your teeth, right?

For sure. Yeah. So Yost again, I think we've been talking about corporate agility, but maybe this agile metaphor maybe even can be taken to a nationwide level. I think that as a nation, we've always been forced. To adjust to be flexible because we're not with many. So we need to be smart, trying to think as a nation, we're very open to trying to do new stuff apart from a great infrastructure, both from grades levels of education, apart from the fact that we're efficiently quite well situated where we are.

So I would like to think that ethics. Nation. We have a lot of agile characteristics. First agile nation, take yours down. Chad, why don't you go to the lady who was the first to comment and ask her? She's got lots of ideas. I can tell

what I think about Amsterdam and why is it a creativity and innovation hub? Uh, for, for me, Amsterdam is really a free spirit. So there's so much energy in the city and about exploration, uh, doing new things, um, uh, freedom that's free soul. That's what comes to my mind. All right, everybody. Would you please say your appreciation from the big cheese from EMS?

Okay. Now, if you hadn't already noticed there's plenty of beer being consumed. There's a whole rabble of people at the back of the room. Now, I think that's a clear sign that we need to get to a wrap on this show. Chad, what are you thinking? Yeah. Thank you so much, everyone for participating. And I just wanted to remind you that Mike and I do host a podcast.

If you couldn't draw and you can find that@moonshots.io, we've profiled some really great entrepreneurs and innovators unpacking as much as we can from them to learn how we can take their practices. And apply them to our own lives. And I think today we've gotten some really amazing takeaways. Uh, for me, I think that the biggest one was this idea about honesty and transparency.

It seemed everyone that we've spoken to has got to that point. And it seems to me to be a very Dutch thing as well. What Steven was saying, how, you know, they'll tell you, uh, how things really are. Yeah, I love that. So what a fabulous way to kick off the night here? The night is only very young. We're super thankful to all of you for being part of the moonshots podcast, which episode number we at is this 14, 14 to episode.

So we thank you very much. We want your thoughts, your comments and your ideas. But in the true spirit of Amsterdam, the freedom of the night is Friday night. We're going to wrap up here for the moonshots podcast. The DJ is queuing the vinyl and we're ready to enjoy and celebrate something very special tonight.

So everybody thank you very much for a great year. .