Nicholas Taleb: Antifragile:

Rising Star Series

episode 133

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Hello, and welcome to the moonshots podcast. It's episode 133. I'm your co-host Mike Parsons. And as always, I'm joined by the man who is definitely. Anti-fragile Mr. Mark Pearson. Freeland. Good morning, mark. Hey, good morning, Mike. This is a good moment as well. Isn't it to revisit some essential DNA. That's so consistent throughout moonshots about where we're going today.

I am so glad that this is one of our most recurring themes with who is someone who is definitely one of our rising stars, mark. Yes, that's right listeners. We are in the part two of our two Potter second rising start series, where we revisit some of our favorites. But more importantly, some of your favorites listeners moonshot is that we've covered in the past, who really are demonstrating what it means to be a moonshot.

And today we're revisiting episode 88. All the way back, Mike, and back in the past with Nicholas Taleb's [00:01:00] antifragile (buy on Amazon) and boy have some of the themes that we've learned from that book really come off a lot in the recent episodes that we've dug into. Yeah, I have. And I think one of the things is that we live in a world that is, as Peterson would say beyond order, right.

Is it a little bit of chaos around us, but I think secondly, All of you who are listening to moonshots. The one thing we know is you're all on a mission to do something special in the world, trying to be the best version of yourself. And this is the other thing. So when you've decided to give it a go, when you've decided to be the best you can be, you will undoubtedly meet a little friend called adversity.

Discomfort challenges stress. And what's really interesting is our natural reaction to adversity and challenge can often be a fight or flight. The ego kicks in and [00:02:00] we don't, we want to survive, but we also don't want to fail in front of others and we can avoid doing the hard work. Now what Nicholas Taleb does in antifragile (buy on Amazon) is sets the scene for inverting.

This paradigm that I talked about, were in fact, you need to search out. Challenge and adversity and stress in order to become better in order to become the best version of yourself. Mark, this theme is everything anywhere from Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson, but Nicholas Talib has managed to capture it in a very powerful way.

 Not only for our minds, for our bodies, for our souls, but it's an economic theory. It's a. Philosophical theory, this anti-fragile is one big moonshot idea. It is, it kind of provides a blueprint for how to behave in a world that is pretty chaotic. You're right. Our recent Jordan Peterson series digs [00:03:00] into chaos and order.

And I'd say the anti-fragile. Tries to define or at least offer a solution to that world, to how you can retrain yourself, or at least maybe not retrain actively, but see. Disorder adversity obstacles as opportunities to go out and learn from which again is an extension from our Ryan holiday series, Mike, where we learn about looking at the opportunities to go out and struggle as, as benefits as things that we can go and learn from.

Yeah. So yeah. I think  the thing that struck me most about this work and the reason why it was so popular with you, Alison is I think the, I mean, the case that, that  that's the Intel  made for, for this is  He very, very powerful because he did it on many, many different levels. And I think what I want to try and pitch to [00:04:00] you, mark, is sort of the core idea that I think makes it so worth going back for.

So, you know, basically when you encounter stress, Something breaks, not like in a terminal way, but it fractures. Okay.  And a great example is when you work out at the gym, Your muscles, technically, they actually tear a little bit. And that's why you kind of get sore the day after a workout. But what happens is, if you think about that muscle in your arm as an antifragile system, what happens is overnight, it builds this extra capacity.

When your muscle grows back, it actually grows back bigger. Hence, why so many of us go to the gym now that's on a physical body, but every time you think about you encounter a very turbulent emotional situation. If you have a growth [00:05:00] mindset, you will learn to.  Deal with these things. So in the next time, it's not such a big deal.

So this is obviously why, when you're a parent, every time your child encounters a situation for the first time in life, it's quite tumultuous, but actually over time, they sort of learn how it works. If you look at economic systems or business models, you know, there's a classic saying the best time to start a business is in a recession because if it can succeed in a recession, it's all good in the good times, right?

So isn't that interesting mark? That whether you look at this from philosophy fi if you look at it emotional control, if you look at our muscles everywhere you look, there are antifragile systems. Well, yeah, that's the word, isn't it, the systems, everything that's out there around us, our systems, and they all do benefit from as, as Tyler would say, disorder.

From that chaos. And if you know, [00:06:00] economics can get stronger, if my bones can get stronger than why can't my mindset or my behavior, or my habits get stronger through instability. Yep. No, that this  this episode was hugely popular with you, our listeners. So we felt that  along with. Abby one back that Nicholas Talib really deserved.

Another hearing out more deeper reflection, more work can be done on this idea of anti-fragile in a world where we don't even need to leave the house to get food anymore, where everything is real-time instantaneous and on demand. There's just a call. To all of us to actually embrace a little bit of hardship and certainty, a little bit of waiting for good things to happen, to building that muscle strength, to build that fortitude so that we can go out and be the best that we can possibly be in [00:07:00] this world.

Marcie, you ready to dig into antifragile? I'm ready to go. All right. Let's jump in and get into the world and the work of Nicholas Taleb. And anti-fragile. Anti-fragility to me and to  my area of work is the ability to be strong enough to be able to bounce back after being hit by a storm.

Anti-fragility is thriving off of disruption. So if disruption is a fact and something that is going to be happening, how can you capitalize off of that? Where your peers will actually fall behind? How can you capitalize on that disruptive? Sure the word actually is a pretty good term. And what it means is figuring out how to eliminate disruptions.

And if you can't eliminate how to recover from the more quickly, that would be my definition antifragility is [00:08:00] ensuring that your business has continuity that will deliver consistently for both shareholder and customer it's isolating yourself or your business model from.  The factors both internal and external to ensure that you can consistently provide the value.

 For me under facilities, the ability to react to various different track directors and challenges that you get from different parts of the world, different parts of your business challenges, and being able to respond appropriately anti-fragility is building a supply chain that can handle rapid changes.

It's building a supply. Shane that can handle  external events, unseen external events, and it's building a supply chain that can evolve with business conditions. Being able to withstand whatever may come and still deliver to your commitments. In the end customer [00:09:00] anti-fragility is really given the company more resilience to adapt to the variability in the market.

I mean what a fascinating  clip, because people were like some guys that thinking about adaptability, some guys that manifested as a, as a supply chain story. Look for me. What I'd taking from this mark is that people who have read this book by Nicholas Taleb, antifragile. What you can see is I think that the power is we have to kind of be like a Swiss army knife  ready for any sort of action.

I think this is like knowing that you don't control the world, but being ready for the things that may or may not happen, being ready for the unpredictable. That's what you can be in control of. You can control your own response, your own agility, your own capacity to, [00:10:00] to adapt and. I think that was really good to hear people digesting this big concept of being antifragile, because we taught so much of things being fragile and Talib talks about on the, on the shipping box, they put fragile handle with care.

And what we're about to reveal is that is simply not how the world works.  Mark for you as you've delved into antifragile, you've just heard all these people reflecting on what it means to them. My question for you is how have you processed that? How have you processed it and what does it mean to you?

Exactly like the clip that we've just heard. And I think it's an interesting way for us to start. The show is. How different one can interpret it. You know, the, the work of Tyler  particularly in anti-fragile is relevant to many, many different strands of business economies, government systems, and our [00:11:00] day-to-day reactions to stresses.

You know, the thing for me that really sings when I really dug into antifragile is this concept of  disruption capitalization, which actually one of the, one of the listeners and readers called out in that clip. Just now this idea of. If you can train yourself to be ready to adapt and handle rapid changes, you have an advantage on those around you while everybody else is perhaps sinking or trying to swim.

You're already out of the water because you've done the practice. You've responded already to those challenges and you've bounced back even stronger than, you know, your competitor brands or those around you. Your colleagues. And for me, that's, that's a really, really valuable lesson that comes through or in anti-fragile because you're right.

There's a, there's a great description of anti-fragile that, that concept of putting the sticker on the front of a box. I [00:12:00] love, I think that's really, really nice.  But for me when I'm thinking about it, I think, okay, well, how can I learn from this? And I think it's really down to this adaptability, this reaction that comes through in the way that you, you live your life.

And that you operate a business with what we've just heard  from people talking in their own words is that they've manifest them.  This idea of anti-fragile  and very entrepreneurial terms. And later in the show, we're going to go into the top 10 practices of anti-fragility and we're going to discuss them, relate to them, pull them apart.

So that you, our listeners, you can get all those valuable tips, hints, tricks, so you can apply them in your world, whatever you're doing, whether you're designing, building, creating something, or just on a mission to be the very best version of yourself. But mark, I'm going to tell you the very best version of themselves, particularly when it comes to reviewing shows.

And that [00:13:00] is Morgan from  the United States of America. He jumped  into  the apple podcast app and he left us. A stunning review didn't he? He really did. So Morgan LA  thank you very much. Well, sorry. Mergen 43, actually. I think Morgan LA must just be where you're based. Thank you so much for leaving us.

 A very, really, really kind review as always. We could not appreciate it more. This is the perfect way to help us get the word out there. You know, this concept of learning out loud of digging into these innovators each week. You know, we love it. And we love when we hear from you, our listeners. And when you do leave us a rating or review in your podcasting app of choice, it just helps others around the world.

Check us out too. Doesn't it, Mike? Yeah, it's great. And do, you know, thanks to reviews from people like Morgan dragon on wheels, beef, you know, and every other person  we're actually, I think we got to have over 110 people [00:14:00] have reviewed and rated the show. We're so grateful to you because that introduces us to more and more people.

And on today's show, we have another cosmopolitan mix of new listeners where we've entered in the top a hundred charts. I mean, mark. Nigeria Taiwan, Israel, India, Mexico. I mean, imagine what a thesis that would be. If you could dine out on all those wonderful countries, imagine a meal that you could have. I mean, ah, tasty.

So we welcome. We welcome all of these new listeners. We encourage you. If you do enjoy the show, leave us a rating or review, or if you think we can do a better job. Don't worry. We're anti-fragile send us an email at mark. Where is our famous email address? hello@moonshot.io. If you do want to leave us a little bit of a commentary or a bit of criticism, just put it in the title, put it.

Here's an anti-fragile message to practice with an Angus [00:15:00] tips. We're willing to learn. We're willing to embrace tar labs lessons here and this ability of bouncing back. So don't worry. Don't, don't be fragile around us and really. What you see in that is the perfect  thought for this next clip. You shouldn't fear uncertainty.

You shouldn't fear, volatility. The unexpected, actually the key to thriving, not only on a genetic, on a. On a biological level. I mean, think about what our bodies want to do. Our muscles want to grow. Our bones, want to heal bigger and better and stronger. So don't. Don't fear don't avoid  the uncertainty of the future.

Let's have a listen to the author himself, Nicholas Taleb, talking about the benefits of uncertainty, Marcus, our information. The problem in finance is that people want to fear volatility. So they do a Greenspan [00:16:00] Greenspan from Brisbane. Ization is you're trying to artificially stabilize everything and just like a forest in which you're oppressed every small fire to stabilize the big, the flammable material.

Lemme hidden risk accumulate. And then the big one is, is monstrously bad. So this is what happens in an economic system. You have to learn to love for volatility for the sake of the system, because variability, if you embrace, it gives you information that makes you adapt very quickly. And of course protects from big, these big  big fail events.

And you can apply to so many things, you know, like in life, you can have no variables in your life by spending six years in bed. Hopefully reading now that have all my books. Complete torques. I have 600 pages of math or so you can probably do that. It would take me about six years to get through, or you can read the, so have the subprimal entire episode, but anyway, he spent six years in bed.

You had no volatility. Now what happens to you when you get out of bed and then someone advices you, your bones, go break a limb very [00:17:00] easily. Your bones would be brittle. And the first term, you know, make you, you may, you may not survive a subway ride, particularly in New York. So this is this illusion of wanting.

If you embrace volatility, you've got a lot more out of it than they should fear it, embracing volatility. That's great. Again, building on that great clip of, of, of listeners and readers  you know, referring what anti-fragility means to them. Now we actually hear it from Taleb himself and actually I'm, I must admit, I think we might've clipped the  that clip just a little bit too short, because I think he says when you're in bed, he also likes to listen to the moon shops.

Episodes. Yes, you're absolutely right, mark. I mean, we didn't want to    sing our own praises. We highly encourage anybody who's at home, you know, again, go and check out moonshots and like we say, livers review, but anyway, I think, I think the value of this clip and it's great hearing it [00:18:00] from telling himself because it's what all of his books.

In the inserter series, do he implies investment knowledge and advice into a relatable way that we can do in our day-to-day lives? So telling us, Hey, embrace the uncertainty. Don't shy away from challenges of this idea of volatility itself is so powerful, especially when you compare it to, you know, when we've discussed this before Mike is breaking of muscles is how you get stronger.

And that volatility is, you know, where your body as well as your mind is strengthened. Yep. So what's really cool about that clip to build on what you were saying is Nicholas Talib, just compared a macro economic policy by Alan Greenspan, the head of the federal reserve in America. Some while ago, he drew an analogy between how he supported the economy too much.

Made it [00:19:00] very fragile by overprotecting it. And he compared that to atrophy, which is staying in bed for too long and your bones getting Brito. Can we just appreciate how damn cool that is? That he can take his concept and show you the dimension of it? And I think that's the real joy that I'm experiencing as I revisit his work as I go into this idea of anti-fragility.

But here is where I want to come back to one of my favorite innovators, which is Zaha Hadid. I've talked about her several times on the show. We also have a whole show dedicated to her. If you go to our back catalog at now, where would you find out back catalog?  I'm just going to have to try and remember  is moonshots.io.

All of our archives shows and mentioned that I highly recommend everybody's going to check it out. The Zahar headed. One is a personal favorite of mine too. And she knows Zahara, literally overcame so many obstacles and she, she [00:20:00] developed an anti-fragile mindset. She was like, Ooh, another challenge, someone being sexist because she was a woman because she was a, a female architect in Britain, in the sixties and seventies.

 She was also of middle Eastern    heritage. So, you know, that made it hard. So racist, sexist, you name it. And she's like, no problem. I will fight the system. I will overcome. I will not  let them get the better of me. I will let adversity make me stronger. This is the essence of anti-fragile. It is the essence of a pattern that you and I see in so many entrepreneurs, this idea that they embrace and they totally embrace hardship because they know on the other side of the hardship.

On the other side  is absolute  enrichment fulfillment, satisfaction, the [00:21:00] feeling of realizing your purpose and your dream is an elixir that is purely magical, but you know, the crazy thing is this embracing  volatility is not only great for your personal life or for entrepreneurship or the economy.

Mark. We can even apply this beyond those. I mean, it gets better. It doesn't, it, it does. And in the next clip that we're going to actually listen to  a  educator, Jonathan hade, who we just want to give a little shout out to because we love what he says in this coming clip. It's all about  building on this idea of volatility and uncertainty.

It's all about resilience. And again, Mike, this is something that you and I have riffed on and talked about a lot in the previous shows. And again, Zoho did is a perfect example of somebody who demonstrates and practices resilience in what they do. So in this next clip, again, building into this concept of anti-fragility Jonathan Haidt, talking to [00:22:00] his students and introducing the concept of anti-fragility and how resilience is something that we can actually teach ourselves.

Let me give you the most important psychological concept for adolescent development for human development. Well, there's several really important ones, but here's a really important one. Antifragility chapter seven is on the uses of adversity because every society has a principle, something like what doesn't kill me, makes me stronger as Friedrich Nietzsche.

Put it. And why is this true? Well, the best explanation is from this really interesting book by Nassim to lab to lab could see that the American banking, the global banking system had not been challenged. And if something isn't stressed, then it, if it finally is stressed, it collapses. And so he's trying to figure out what's the word, what's the word for things that get stronger?

The more they're challenged, everybody said to him, well, Brazilians, that's what [00:23:00] resilience is. There's no, no, it's not really. It's more than resilience. So if you think about it, like this, a wineglass is fragile. And so we don't let kids toddlers play with a wine glass because they'll drop it. And if they drop it, nothing good happens.

So we give them plastic sippy cups, because plastic is resilient. If you drop a plastic cup and kids do it, doesn't break, but does it get better? No. So what's the word for things that get better when you drop them? And there isn't one. And so  makes up this word. Anti-fragile the opposite of fragile. So bones are anti-fragile when you break your bones, they heal and they get stronger where they broke, but he said he notes that a candle.

Is fragile. If you have a candle, you have to protect it from a puff of wind, which will blow it out. But if it gets large enough, it becomes a fire. Then the more you blow on it, the stronger it gets. And so to lab says you want to be the fire and wish for the wind, which I think is [00:24:00] very good advice. Both for you as you run your lives and for your teachers and school administrators, as you think about how to make kids at Asheville school stronger.

Ooh way. That is just what a succinct presentation of the importance, the value and the magic in anti fragility. Be the fire and wish. For the wind. Oh, wow. Does that just not speak to you on a million different levels? My water gray little man. That is, isn't it, you know, be the fire be that strength remain burning away, but actually.

You know that weakness  you know, that the wind is going to be the weakness for fire, but as Taleb talks about in, in antifragile, you know, flame for a candle is very, very fragile. Cause a little gusta, wind can blow out, but when there's a fire and it rages and that wind just fuels the fire, [00:25:00] suddenly that idea of capitalizing on this uncertainty.

Makes perfect sense to me again, it's a wonderful little visual metaphor because it just proves to live  this great image of the use of uncertainty being the way to make me stronger. So actually you embrace those uncertain moments, pretty challenging, I suppose. And how dynamic that we've heard, we've talked about the economic policy of the federal reserve.

We have talks about atrophy in bed. Educating others. Being an entrepreneur antifragile is the organizing system by which you can survive and here's the key bit and thrive. So I think that what we've tried to pull together here is three clips that. Really present the dynamics and the possibilities, just these [00:26:00] sheer it capacity of this idea can be applied in so many ways.

And I think this is the gift. I think  it's safe to say Nicholas Taleb, the author of anti-fragile had no idea  that. The sheer dimensionality of this, this concept could be applied in our lives in so many different shapes and forms. So many different flavors.  I find this really exciting and, and beyond that, if there was ever.

 Moment in life, where we needed to think about the benefits of uncertainty and not fearing volatility and the unexpected. It has to be here. We are in the middle of 2020, and people are talking about work from home quarantine. COVID-19 like putting all of that in context. We really do have a choice. We can fear this volatility.

Or we can embrace it [00:27:00] and use it as a way to make ourselves stronger. Use this as a moment to make ourselves our families, our friends, our communities  a larger cohort, whether it's a state or a whole country. This is how we have a choice right now. So what I hope we've done so far. Is given everyone some inspiration to embrace the uncertainty.

I mean, Joe Rogan is crazy to think that Joe Rogan was on the same idea. So an MMA guy, a comedian guy has the same fundamental belief as this brilliant strategic theorist, academic and author, Nicholas Taleb embrace the discomfort, embrace the uncertainty because you will earn your success. You will be stronger in the process of getting there.

Don't sit in bed and get all brittle, go out and face. Whatever life has to bring us. [00:28:00] This is some good stuff, mark. How are you processing it? If you have to kind of break it down for yourself before we get into all the practical, good stuff. How are you processing this idea of anti-fragile how's it all mixing up in your mindset?

It, it speaks to me, it speaks to me a lot. The, the, the book itself is very, very  you know, dance. It's, it's, it's a fantastic detailed look at how to.  You know, stem these different concepts, across many, many different situations and areas of business, as well as  government structures like we've discussed.

But you know, for me, if I'm, you know, comparing it to where I am right now, you know, in the middle of a pandemic, we're restricted to  essentially our homes or, you know, the, the nearby neighborhoods, you know, we're encouraged not to do much overseas travel, which, you know, frankly, I, I I'd come to take.  For granted, I suppose, you know, having [00:29:00] family living on the other side of the world, I was expecting to go back at least a couple of times this year, but you know, it's now a middle of August and I haven't gone back once.

And this concept, like I say, I, I took it for granted. So I was naturally quite fragile in the way that I was expecting to go and do that. I was expecting to. You know, almost have a guarantee of what I would be doing. And you know, where Nicholas Taleb comes through for me is I could lie in bed and, you know, atrophy or watch the Sopranos or listen to the entire archive  shows of moonshots.

 But actually this concept of right, I'm going to get out, I'm going to go and embrace this discomfort. I'm going to accept it. I think number one, and I'm going to not make it be. The thing that ruins my mood or ruins my ability to work. That's number two for me. So it's acceptance and it's  you know, not letting [00:30:00] it drag me to one side or distract me.

Yeah. I love it. I love it. It's and it's so brilliant because all of this  response to, to work from home in quarantine is a choice. And I think this has been very, very  true of a lot of lessons that we've learned through studying  entrepreneurs and innovators, creators designers, artists, authors, you might not control COVID-19, but you do control your response to it.

Exactly. We all hold that capability in our own minds. We know how to respond to challenges when they come up, you know, whether it's, when you're going for a run or motivating yourself to go and, you know, try some new food, you know, there are all sorts of challenges all around us and our ability to bounce back and accept [00:31:00] the situation that we're all in now.

Yeah. That's entirely up to us and that's really fantastic. Taleb's antifragile comes through for me. Yeah. The  The exciting thing now is if, if we haven't done a good job of pitching the value of anti-fragile than perhaps the rest of the show is not for you, but for the listeners that are like mark, Mike, what do you know?

What can we, you learn about how to do this? Let's put this into practice. I mean, if, if every time we work out. And we're a bit tight the day after that's actually a muscles ripping and then regrowing, but they regrow stronger and bigger. Our bones when they break, they grow back stronger and bigger. If our basic biology and the systems around us all embrace uncertainty and volatility.

If they are all [00:32:00] antifragile, then the only question becomes, how can I be anti-fragile. And mark, are you ready? Shall we jump into anti-fragile? One-on-one yeah, let's jump into some practicality, Mike, and we're actually going to be listening to  in the next couple of clips that we've got for the show.

 It's a fantastic  curator of concepts and big ideas. And his name is Brian Johnson. Thank you very much. Brian Johnson for. Pulling together, some of your thoughts, because we think it's a perfect way to explain some of the big ideas from anti-fragile and part one, we're going to listen to Brian Johnson telling us a couple of big ideas, and then let's, let's discuss them.

Shall we, Mike? All right. Let's crack into it. Here's Brian Johnson.  You can find him on YouTube. His channel is optimize and  we're going to get hit with a rapid fire top five things you can do to be anti-fragile. [00:33:00] So here we go. Top 10 big ideas. The first big idea is fragile versus robust versus antifragile.

We've talked about the idea of anti-fragility quite a bit in different classes, but I want to go deep here. We'll start with an overview of what those three concepts are all about. The second big idea challenge versus threat cycle. Well, just echo this wisdom. They say that it's how you look at something.

It's how you present.  whatever's happening to you in your life that determines how you physiologically and psychologically respond to it. We'll talk about that. We'll talk about true confidence and we will talk about the fact that you've got this. The third big idea is emotional stamina, emotional stamina.

This is an idea or a phrase I should say that I picked up from Phil. Dots. I've been working with Phil, the author of the tools. And we'll talk about how important emotional stamina is, what it is and how to cultivate yours. When things go a little sideways. The fourth big idea is victim [00:34:00] versus hero.

Moment to moment to moment, we are either choosing to be a victim, or we are choosing to be a hero. We want to practice with the little things. So when the big things happen, we're ready. The fifth big idea is the number one tool. In my experience to cultivate our anti-fragility. This is Phil stocks. Again, bring it on your infinite potential exists on the other side of your fear on the other side of your pain, therefore, we want to reverse our desire and get excited about whatever is challenging us.

Get comfortable being uncomfortable. Oh, rapid fire. I love it. Thanks Brian Johnson. You've got us going. So now Mike, here comes the fun bit. Let's dig into it. So top five ideas right there. We can go into the rest of the minute.  I think, I think there's some big concepts here. We've covered a couple of them, so maybe we'll just very, very quickly  revisit some of our favorites for me.

The thing that jumps out straight [00:35:00] away is this concept of. You control your response, spoke about it earlier in the show. And actually Brian Johnson calls it out as number two there  this concept of you choose how to respond to challenges and threats. You know, this response is completely up to you or me in our day-to-day lives.

And. I th I think there's, I think there's something very, very empowering about that. This comes into empowerment. We've obviously discussed on the show before haven't we, Mike? Yeah. Once again, this perceiving events is so, so strong, so valuable. Yeah. So, so let's talk about some tools and approaches to do that.

 Something I've mentioned a couple of times  which I think is really important is  you know, in those moments when. Something happens maybe in a sports team  where a player in a [00:36:00] team  you know, struggles with something and something goes wrong. You have a choice you can say, oh my gosh  Joe blogs, you miss the ball, Joe blogs, you didn't pass right.

You weren't in the defensive line correctly, whatever, whatever  you can choose to blame that person.  Singled them out.  Shout at them, be angry, be frustrated at them. Well, the other choice you have is to say, Hey, I'll run to help. Or maybe even better after the game, you can say, Hey, let's take a moment and do some practice runs and I'll show you how to do it.

The same thing goes with your family, with your friends and your work, or particularly your work colleagues. We often find ourselves in situations where we're like. Someone let me down. And what I would really, really encourage people to do is rather than rush to judgment is take what I call the mentor mentality.

Imagine you're [00:37:00] their coach, you're their agent, you're their manager. And you're like, okay, what can I do to help them overcome it? So rather than sitting there and say, well, we stuffed that up because someone so didn't do their job, ask yourself what can I do? To help that person learn how to overcome that challenge completely holistically and forever.

And I think so much of that is a choice. It's how you want to perceive things. If you perceive the world as working against you and being defensive and blaming and judging, you're going to have a really tough time. But if you embrace volatility on certainly if with other people, your perception is okay, someone is struggling with something.

I am going to help them master that. I think this is an insanely practical way to embrace anti-fragility [00:38:00] because it's a chance to be stronger when something breaks, but. It is our choice about whether we're going to step up and help people around us. It's our choice is we want to put others before ourselves.

I think that is such a, a critical choice in how we want to perceive events around us. What do you think, do you think that helps us shift on how we want to respond to the things around us? I think what's nice about where you're taking this actually is you're even building on the anti-fragile piece, which is.

I choose how to I respond to that situation and I will make myself  antifragile. What's nice about where you're taking this in this  leadership coach, mentor  approach that we've obviously discussed before is how can you help? How can you a identified, but also be how can you help others?

Identified and build on it. How can you [00:39:00] improve those around you as well as yourself? And I think that's so true again, it's, it's that Testament to  Nicholas Taleb's work. It's so true in a variety of different situations and occasions. It's not just me on the, on the basketball court and I've missed a shot.

Instead, it's you identifying that maybe I've missed that shot and both of us deciding, or you deciding to encourage me to continue practicing. And that brings to mind a wonderful episode that we did it a little while ago about Michael Jordan. Doesn't it, Mike? Yeah. You know, this, this idea of practice makes perfect and the resilience that it took Michael Jordan to go out on the court and work harder than some of his coaches, some of his teammates.

And he inspired those around him. To go and practice as well. I think again, that's a perfect metaphor and a perfect example of anti-fragility isn't it it's Michael Jordan stepping up and whenever he goes out onto the court, he's, [00:40:00] you know, even more prepared than his, his  competing team. And that actually brings me back to that first clip that we heard is disruption capitalization.

If you can capitalize on the. Uncertainties and that anxiety and own it, you can be better prepared than others around you. Yeah, it's so true. And it's all encapsulated in the thought that we heard heard from Brian Johnson. They're talking about being the hero rather than the victim mindset, which is a different way of saying, you know, embracing the uncertainty, embracing the unknown, the volatility.

 And what's critical here is that it all loads up into the key concept. That antifragile means it is something, a trait, a characteristic, a behavior person, an individual, a team, or a company that gets stronger as it overcomes uncertainty and volatility. I mean said differently. Don't let a good crisis go to waste, right?

[00:41:00] Ask yourself how it can make you stronger and better. And one of the things that I try very hard to do is when things are not great. Is to say, Hey, this is a moment where we might be good most of the time, but let's be great. And rather than like, Hey, so-and-so you did not do that. Right. We have the chance of what an amazing chance we've got to see the gap between good and great.

Let's work on it together. What do you need? How can I help you get us to great. And I'll do whatever it takes that is so different to yo Joe blogs. You didn't do it properly. I told you to do it properly. I'm really angry. Like that is that that's the same event, two different perceptions, but most importantly, two different responses to the very same thing I think.

Totally right. And referencing Jim Collins is [00:42:00] from good to great. I think. If we revisited  that book and that, that work from Jim Collins, I think that's what we were finding. Those companies that were great. They were able to respond to those uncertainty. They embraced those challenges and therefore became businesses that lasted for far many more years, far more successfully than those around them.

They were able to. Respond to events and, you know, eventually be faster, stronger, and a better foundations and therefore be greater than businesses around them. Yeah. And I think that  what we can take from these first five tips before we get to the next five is this is all about just saying, all right, stuff's a bit crazy.

Cool. How can we learn, grow, build, how can we become anti-fragile through this? Rather than  you know, freaking out, oh my gosh. You know, one of the classic things is every time the stock market drops significantly, everyone freaks out. Like it's [00:43:00] never happened before, but if you actually step back, it does it every seven to 10 years, pretty habitually.

 When  a great sporting team, you know, we talked about Michael Jordan, they won  six  back to back    world championships and then they haven't won one since like things go up and down and  I think just having a disposition or like, okay, well I accept that things go up and down or uncertain.

I didn't see that coming.  And just being ready to apply some of those, I think that sets you on the right path, doesn't it? Yeah, it really does. Since you in that right path, again, it's up to you to make that choice to continue down that path, but by re.  Setting that point of view. That's where I think, you know, anti-fragility and this approach really, really comes to power.

Doesn't it? It does. So with that said where deep in  to antifragile one oh one, let's [00:44:00] finish it up with Brian Johnson and he's five last tips for being anti-fragile. All right. Our sixth big idea is barbells and infinite optionality. So these are a couple of ideas from Nassim. Taleb's great book antifragile, which is where I got this phrase and what we'll talk about in the first big idea.

But he says that when you're looking at becoming antifragile, whether you are a government or a corporation or an individual, you want to think about a few different things. One of them is what he calls his barbell strategy. And another is to have options. If you don't have options, you're fragile. We want to create options.

We wanna create infinite options. We'll talk about that. The seventh, big idea, spinny fingers, simplifying the battlefield and Mr. Mo via micro wins. We're going to talk about spinning yourself around and you have two options when you spin yourself around and you get dizzy, we'll share those. One of them brings you back to equanimity a lot faster than the other.

Then we want to simplify, and then we want to create that [00:45:00] momentum via small wins. Number eight, Apollo. The patron got a philosophy, either wins or he learns we win, or we learn we're going to talk, but the three questions that Lanny Bassham Olympic gold medalist tells us, we need to think about after a performance, especially one that didn't go the way we want to.

If we want to be anti-fragile three questions, the ninth big idea is common humanity. And scars equals metals. First thing we need to remember again, is this isn't about shame when something doesn't go the way you want. No, that everyone feels some disappointment. It's not because it's you it's because you're human.

And then we want to wear our scars, like metals. So Paulo Coelho line. We'll talk about the growth mindset and vis-a-vis fixed mindset here. And the fact that Michael Jordan is the penultimate perfect embodiment of this idea of wearing your scars like metals. Then the 10th big idea is our ohms mantra.

[00:46:00] Obstacles makes me stronger. Plus gritty boxer plus PTG post-traumatic growth. Versus post-traumatic stress disorder. There's actually a whole nother thing called adversarial growth, where you use challenges as an opportunity to get better, not get crushed, but to get strong. Okay. Some big, five more massive, big Ron Johnson, if anything, more significant than those first five, right?

Oh gosh. Oh my gosh. I felt like we should've just paused just to let our brains catch up just one at a time. Each idea. I mean, again, this is just building on these great concepts that we've already spoken about. This idea of  I particularly want to focus on Apollo because back in my younger days, I actually studied  ancient history and, and, you know, Apollo speaks to me a lot in, in tar lab's work, as well as Brian Johnson's call out that this idea of wins or learns [00:47:00] is something that I want to walk away from the show.

Having remembered and having realized, you know, every occasion, every challenge is an opportunity to either say yes, I overcame it or okay. If I tripped, Hey, no worries. I've learned, I know how to jump a little bit high and I've learned how to manage it next time. I think that's a really, really calling out to me there.

I love that the  I think the, the overall thing this is inspiring me to, to think about  is the book, a growth mindset, you know  fixed versus growth mindsets. And so I'm like, oh my gosh, we should totally, totally do a show on the growth mindset, because I think once you've accepted volatility and you're being.

The highest level of anti-fragile I think  it's a, it's a growth mindset as well.  [00:48:00]I did want to try one last    sort of practical  tip for our listeners. And I want to take this idea of like, what would be the three questions we could ask ourselves after. We've done something at work.  So generally let's imagine it's like a project let's imagine it was a fairly significant thing.

So maybe launching a new feature in a product, maybe it's launching a new product, a new service, or doing a big campaign or promotion or providing a whole new level of customer service. Whatever this project is.  And  I want to pick up on the questions we should ask of ourselves. If we have an anti-fragile mindset, if we're, if we're saying the obstacles, make me stronger.

If I'm just asking how, whether the project is going good or [00:49:00] bad, or to mix bag, how do I truly embrace challenge? How do I get comfortable being uncomfortable? And  I, I want to pursue these three questions.  Mark, if you were going to ask one question, just say, you've finished a big project and you were doing your own self evaluation with an anti-fragile mindset.

What would be the first question? I suppose?  The first question, the most proactive one would be what went right. When, when was it the best, the best thing about it would that positive. Cause I think I know where you're going to go with this and I, and I, I w I want us to get that, but I reckon the first question could be okay, well, what am I really, really pleased with?

It's something worked. Yeah. And  if we go to the uncomfortable, what's the opposite of that on a personal level, what do I think went wrong? What can I improve [00:50:00] on next time? This idea of perfect growth. So, all right. So good. It totally is. So I want to like  if, if you are truly committed to  the place that you're doing, your work, the first place.

That you need to go to as yourself, but then wait for this to use this agile antifragile approach, you would say, how can I improve based on the project and what I've learned, then you say, how can I help the team be better? And how can I better help and serve the members of the team. And this goes back to this mentor mentality that I was talking about.

And the third question you ask is, what else can I do to help the program overall? Well, the company overall. So you might say, I want to write user stories better and how can I better help the team? I want to help someone who [00:51:00] struggles with documenting user flows, because I know how to do that. And lastly, I think we need to have a design thinking masterclass for all of the employees at the company.

I think if you're totally. Embracing anti-fragile in your work, in your craft. You ask, how can I improve? How can I better help the team? And what else can I do to help the company overall, three big questions. I love that. Reflect on yourself. Look at those around you and remember the big picture. Mm mm. So, how does it feel mark we're at the end of this lofty, hefty  idea of being antifragile?

How do you feel now that we're on the other side, how does it feel to be embracing it? Antifragile? I I'm, I'm really pleased with the ability to dig into what the concept means. You know, really, really lean into [00:52:00] this idea of being antifragile and how we can learn and  you know, Build on the foundation that we all have in our day-to-day lives.

I even if you don't necessarily cast yourself as, as  anti-fragile or robust, I think this is a perfect little snapshot into how to tweak that mindset and allow yourself to build on it positively and be stronger the next time round. So true. So true. So remember that we're talking about more then resilience.

What we've been able to learn here on the last hour is just by digging into the work of Nicholas Taleb. And anti-fragile, I think we've mark. I think this is a whole mindset, isn't it? It is. It's a, it's a totally new mindset to new new behavior. And it's one that I want to try and. Challenge ourselves with, with delivering from now on, and especially your [00:53:00] new three questions.

I like that a lot. So, mark, thank you for joining me on this roller coaster ride from macro to micro, from personal to macroeconomic. It's been fantastic. So thank you to you, mark. Most of all, thank you to all of our listeners.  We. Cannot. Thank you enough for all of your positive feedback, your reviews and your ratings.

And we certainly do welcome all of our new listeners from Nigeria, Taiwan, Israel, India, Mexico. Thank you for being part of this journey of learning from innovators and boy today, did we realize, did we come to a whole new mindset of not fearing? Volatility, but actually embracing the unknown and uncertainty.

And if we do that, we can not only learn more about ourselves as individuals, but also about our teams about our company. This can even be a way to think [00:54:00] about. How we educate how we raise families and at the heart of this is we make a choice that every time we meet a challenge, we will overcome it and we will be stronger for it.

This is at the very core of anti-fragile. So our. Must become getting comfortable with the uncomfortable and embracing the challenge. So let's go out there into the world and let's make sure that we are really seeing obstacles as an opportunity. We don't run from them, rerun towards him. And if we do that, we can be the very best version of ourselves.

And frankly, that's what we're here to do. As we all come together on the Schutz podcast is to learn from innovators to think out loud. To become the very best we can be. Thanks for joining us on this adventure into Nicholas Taleb and anti-fragile, we'll see you next time on the moonshots podcast. That's a wrap.