Jordan Peterson: Beyond Order

12 More Rules for Life:

Rules 1-6

episode 130

SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Hello and welcome to the men podcast. It's episode 130 I'm your co-host Mike Parsons. And as always, I'm joined by the man who is an antidote to chaos himself. He goes beyond odor. It is Mr. Mark Pearson Freeland. Good morning, mark. Good morning, Mike. I mean your ride today is not only going beyond chaos and order, but you know, before we get into that, I think we're getting beyond the cold of autumn over in Sydney.

It's a beautiful sunny day. It is, it is  one of those strange things about winter in Sydney  that I can certainly tell you having lived in Europe for over 10 years, there's, ain't no winter in the end. It's a little chilly, but it's beautiful day. And it feels like just the perfect moment for us to return to some familiar.

Territory, but with a brand new set of ideas, that's right too day listeners, we are getting into Jordan Peterson's beyond order (buy on Amazon) 12 more [00:01:00] rules for life. So for those who listen, we can, the first of the  of his  12 from the 42 of his Cora last week  that was originally published in 2018. We're now getting into, beyond order, which was published earlier this year in 2021.

And Mike there's some pretty essential rules. Once again, being brought up by Peterson that I can't wait to. Think out loud and share with you as well as our listeners today. I think it's a pretty powerful set of rules once again, from Peterson. Well, it's what you would expect. Isn't it from Jordan Peterson himself.

And he has been through quite the adventure since he wrote his last book.  Here we are in  the first day of June, 2021, and this book was only published a month or two ago. So this is hot off the press. Many people are seeing. This is a little bit more of a personal  a book from Jordan Peterson.

It's a little bit more  even one might say authentic, but it has certainly had a lot of impact [00:02:00] on folks.  I would even go as far as  to quite some people say this was like a life-saving book for them.  So it's a pretty profound piece of work. So what you, our listeners can expect today is us rifling through the first six rules of Jordan.

Peterson's new book beyond order (Buy on Amazon), and there is some great storytelling. I can tell you what we've even got dragons and Tinkerbell and everything in between coming up in this show. So it's going to be fantastic. And I think what Jordan does for us mark, is he gives us a way to think a way to confront and a way to move to wards our goals.

That's how I see the span of his work. I think that's why it's so powerful. Why do you think Jordan Peterson matters? I think Jordan Peterson. Calls all of us out and says, Hey, you need to assume the [00:03:00] responsibility for the situation that you're in right now, as well as how you are responding to life's challenges.

I think he enables, I imagine he's behind this big spotlight and imagine him on the top of a tower, looking down at all of us, and he's turned on this big spotlight and he's turned it to me and says, Hey, mark, take these rules and use them when you're struggling. Bling day to day when you've got a little bit of a problem with work or life or whatever it is.

Yeah. Here are some, some essential behaviors and rules and ways of reacting that you can do yourself. And I think that's, that's pretty. Personal. I think that might be where the connection between focus saved my life as has really come from a lot of readers. Yeah. Wow. We're building up the expectations where we're saving lives no less here on the moonshots podcast.

So mark, we're gonna   kick things off with  perhaps a very meaty Claire. Why don't you set it up for us so we can get into the business of saving lives. [00:04:00] Yeah. Today we're going to be kicking off the show with Claire from 52 living ideas from YouTube.  Claire is going to dig into it. This idea of abandoned ideology from Jordan Peterson and help us understand modern idea structures.

Abandon ideology.  And I have to say reading this chapter, I feel in this book that this is really the chapter that I've been waiting for. It is well-written, it is tight and it's not a new topic for Peterson by any means.  It beckons back to sort of his classic set your house in perfect order.

Before you criticize the roar the world in a, in the previous book where he brought us inside the minds of the Columbine shooters, this, this area of expertise for him, this knowledge area of ideology is really born out of Peterson's long study of some of the great genocides of the 20th century. So in this chapter, he really more clearly than I [00:05:00] think he's ever done before starts to outline.

Why we need to be cautious of any modern ideas structures, whether that be yoga or conservatism or liberalism, or even like diet culture.  He, he's really starting to beautifully outline how all these kind of modern ideologues are simplifying the immense complexity of the world. And anytime that a school of thought is giving sort of a blanket univariate cause for such diverse and complex problems where the victims are always innocent.

And as he says, the perpetrators are always evil. You should ask more questions there.  And, and he says that these ideas, these are particularly attractive to people who are smart and lazy. And that definitely stuck out to me because I think I certainly was one of those [00:06:00] ideologues in the past. So, what do we do instead?

What do we do instead of ideology? Where do we look?  He really systematically outlined and brings us through the classic Nietzschean thought of God is dead. And what do we do instead of that?  And he encourages us  to look inside ourselves for the errors of the room.  We should sort of look to develop our own value structures, our own ideas structures, and take the world sins onto ourselves, or at least identify with that shadow shadow is within ourselves.

 He uses the example of fiction, so bad fiction, bad stories always has good guys and bad guys, but a really good story. It divides each character into light and darkness. It finds the shadow within each of us. And those are the kind of evil characters that we relate to because we know that, you know, within all of us there is that propensity to evil.

And it's up to us to kind of [00:07:00] value R R or create a hierarchy out of our values. So I will leave you guys with just the last  passage of the chapter, which I think is a banger, have some humility clean up your bedroom, classic Peterson  take care of your family, follow your conscience, straighten up your life, find something productive and interesting to do and commit to it when you can do all that.

Find a bigger problem and try to solve that if you dare. And if that works to move on to even more ambitious projects, and as the necessary beginning to that process, abandoned ideology.  What a way to start the show? My goodness, mark. There was so much in there. I'm looking at my I'm looking at my notes and I'm paralyzed.

It's just too many ways to talk about this. All right. Let, let, let me tell you shut up. I think  why the context of this thought this [00:08:00] rule is so important right now is in part things to our preoccupation, with social media, we are dividing ourselves amongst those that red. Those are the blue, those are the black, those that are white.

Those that are good, those that are bad, we're making this various very clumsy.  What are you for? What are you against polarized society and what. Peterson points out in this idea of abandoned ideology is a life just isn't that simple. In fact, if we look at ourselves, we all have a little bit of good and a little bit of bad.

So don't cast, don't be so quick to cast those judgments among others. Further, still ask some questions  go deeper and enjoy and embrace independent thought. Don't just go along with the crowd. Be careful [00:09:00] that you're not drinking the Kool-Aid that you actually miss. The truth. I mean, what a big opener my brain is just like spinning it's big, isn't it?

Because I actually, in fact, I'm, as you can hear, I'm struggling to put my own thoughts into words.  I, I liked this comparison that Claire from 52 living ideas calls out here ideologies exist everywhere. And you could even say that yoga is an ideology. And I like the, the, the build that you've just done there, which is life isn't one side or the other black or white.

It's not  as easy to say as you're a good guy or a bad guy, because you do fall in and out, so you might get into yoga. Sure. But it doesn't necessarily mean that that's the only thing that you do. Right. I like this, this concept of life. Isn't as simple as you either do it or don't do [00:10:00] it. You're going to fall somewhere in the middle.

And if you can at least be aware of that, you can see that there might be an imbalance that comes with either how you respond to things or how the world responds to things. If you're aware of that imbalance and can think for yourself, you can then work on self-improvement. You can then help yourself get a little bit better with how you react or respond to other people as well as yourself.

And you can make it maybe that a little bit better than the day before. Yeah. So, so, so let's do a practical exercise because this is such a big idea, potentially a little abstract. Let's say if you wanted to be a little  Less ideological if you want it to be a little bit more. Open-minded what I would suggest mark, is that in conversation, you know, what, what Peterson is telling us is go a little bit deeper, right?

So the question is, well, how do you do that? Like, how do you go deeper? [00:11:00] How do you not just rush and say, Hey, they're good guys. They're bad guys cast your judgements and be set there. I would propose to you mark, that we simply need to ask in conversation or to ourselves. When we hear a point of view, we need to ask the question why, and we have to be deliberate in questioning things because we take a lot of things at face value.

You know, the amount of, of  news and misinformation that is distributed by the headline alone. Where people are not even reading the body of the story. Right. I would say pause it when someone presents a challenging idea or a radical idea, or perhaps when you're thinking, oh, this is the way to go about things.

Maybe you have a certain bias just to ask yourself why. [00:12:00] In fact, there is this practice  the Toyota  practice of ask why five times, and you shall find the root of all problems. Now, I think what's really good. If we want to abandon our ideology, we have to stop falling for clickbait or confirmation bias.

When we see things that we already believe are true, and to pursue some more uncomfortable ideas with the question of why, tell me more, help me understand. I think that's the start to abandoning ideology rather than just accepting everything at face value. And  yeah. Not challenging the way you see the world and this, by the way, mark, this is so Adam Grant on the recent Adam Grant, think again, show he's basically saying, watch out guys, you've all got these biases that will really get your thinking off track because you'll, you'll assume so much you won't challenge.

 Given assumptions. I mean, I think this is a great practice, don't [00:13:00] you, man? Yeah, you're totally right. During the comparison to Adam Grant. I totally agree. He was calling out in that show and in his latest book, think for yourself, wasn't it. And I think that's exactly where Peterson's coming from here as well.

And Bandon those modern ideas structures, the things that perhaps you've absorbed or learned as you've grown up that actually now might be a little bit wrong, you know, maybe a bit outdated or maybe it's causing you undue stress. When actually you could, you could change it. I think exactly as a grant was calling out, take ownership, know that you can go and change it if you choose to it's much like any habit, isn't it as certainly certainly is.

And I think what's so perfect is this second rule is the perfect follow on from this idea because  in his second rule, Jordan Peterson really starts to talk about how quickly we are to judge on one side or the other to call out a  [00:14:00] a good guy and a bad guy, right? The hero in the enemy yet. Actually, if we listen to his second role, it's, it's really about finding a much better balance in how we think and how we judge.

So let's champion and continue this line of thinking with Jordan Peterson's rules, do not carelessly denigrate, social institutions or creative achievements. So here's, here's some of the new rules. So the first one is do not carelessly denigrate, social institutions or creative achievement. I like, I like that one because you're more prone to carelessly denigrate social institutions.

If you're liberal on the left side of the spectrum, let's say, because you're interested in lateral thinking and spontaneity and novelty and leery of, would you say [00:15:00] structures that constrain, and then if you're more on the center or the right, you're more likely to denigrate creative achievement because while the creative types, you know, they're always moving laterally and breaking things apart.

And I mean the genuinely creative types, you know, the ones that were on the oven yard, and they're a bit of a threat to social institutions, but the truth of the matter is that you need both, there's a, there's this old. There's this line in Alice, in Wonderland, when Ellis goes down the rabbit hole, underneath the structure of things, and she meets the red queen down there, red queen is basically mother nature.

And she's red because mother nature is red in blood, you know, and that's why red queen is always running around, yelling off with their heads. You know, she's, she's the queen of mayhem and murder. And one of the things she says is that in my kingdom, you have to run as fast as you can just to stay in the same place.

And that's really set that's. The fundamental flaw of rigid conservatism [00:16:00] is that you cannot stay in the same place because everything around you shifts. And so you're forced to update. And so if you're a conservative person, you can't denigrate creative achievement because a certain amount of it is necessary just to keep things stable.

And if you're a conservative, you're interested in stability, you think, well, I wish things could stay the same. It's like, Nope, not going to happen. You know? I mean, you don't even stay the same. Right. You sit there and you think I'm just going to stay the same and, and you don't, you get old and right, right.

I mean, it just happens. And because of that, you have to, you have to update and it's the creative types that do the updating. Now, you know, that can get out of hand and things can, you know, you can get so many people, creative people, de-stabilizing the current situation, so that nothing is reliable. And that, that untrammeled creativity can be a destructive force.

That's it's danger, but it's [00:17:00] necessary to respect cultural institutions and also to respect the process that updates them. And so that's what that chapter is respect or at least be aware of the chaotic  Landscape or world that's around you is a bit of a challenge. I think what he's, what he's calling out in that rule, there is everything has a, a mean or a value, right?

And you might go into the world based on your upbringing, based on your passions, your preferences, and so on. And you might feel like you want to rebel against those outside forces. And those outside forces might be other people. There might be internal anxieties and so on. And I think what the rules trying to help us here is how to guide yourself through those challenges, those moments, where things feel a little bit intense, it's finding the guidance, or at least the  the, the calmness that comes [00:18:00] with knowing that everything has a  a reason.

And again, similar to that first rule that we heard on the show, if you can accept both sides of the coin. Then you're going to feel a little bit more balanced. Yeah. I thought what I liked is like, just don't be so rigid because like the world is constantly changing. And I think the last, the last year has been total confirmation of like, everything can change pretty quickly.

So you need to move with the times. Don't just like stubbornly, hold on to things that may have been true in the past, but are now no longer relevant or the idea has moved on.  I think there's really good. And I, and I think it's very appropriate because I think we see a lot of people holding on to these truths, even harder.

So the change comes and so they, they actually hold on, they become more rigid, which is  which is quite challenging. So how do we, how do you think we can.  Make ourselves [00:19:00] more nimble and flexible in how we see the world mark. Like, if, if I said to you, okay, mark, how are you kind of moving your thinking along with the times, what would your answer be?

Like? How would you do it?  For me, when I, when I heard the clip, I'm reminded of the Patrick Lencioni work that he's done on teamwork and how you should listen to your, your colleagues and your teammates. And there's a lot of value that you can get from just listening or asking somebody. Okay. Well, tell me more.

What's what's your life story or what's your point of view? And I think it can be a challenge because you know, life is moving at a million miles an hour. So sometimes you almost don't want to have to listen to somebody else. Do you just want to go ahead and do it and, and I've been guessing for sure.

It's that moment where you, like, they say something, you go, oh, there's sound, there's a ring of truth to that. But you're like, but then I have to change how I think about this. And you're like, no, I'm too busy for that. [00:20:00] I'm just going to get me. Exactly. I can't, I can't do this. I can't change. I can't change the product now.

And you know, even though there may be right. Yeah, I can't do it now. I don't know. I think that's pretty, pretty challenging. So the, I think it's begins at least by sitting down with your colleagues, your, your, your partners, or even maybe your customers to try and understand what, where is the balance between what is feasible, what's desired and how can we maybe get there over time?

Yeah, I think it's    build on that is I would search out  to understand things that make you uncomfortable. Oh yeah. That's nice. Like, if there's like a growing social political point of view that you're like, wow, that just sounds like bonkers. Right.  Then I think that's an invitation to, well, study up on it, ask some questions  try and understand where they're coming from.

 Maybe ask [00:21:00] yourselves, well, having studied it, I don't still don't agree with it, but then you could say, well, I wonder what are the conditions that have led them to think like this? What is the context to this thinking, oh, they've been on that journey. So therefore they have that kind of point of view.

 So you might not agree, but you can understand. I think that searching to understand could be a really good way to find  A little bit less rushed to judgment, don't you? Yeah. Like the  abandoned ideology instead of  you know, falling into the trap of, well, this is it. This is what I've always thought.

And I'm, it's either good or bad number one or number two. And like I say, if you go out and seek to understand why somebody else has chosen something, then you can, you can start to either appreciate where they're coming from. You can start to maybe even question why, and you're just a little bit more, you're more likely to understand where that [00:22:00] line is between as Jordan would put it, order and chaos.

Yeah. Yeah. And also I think if you kind of understand why someone thinks like they do  that I think you can  you can be less judgmental, like you can say, oh, I kind of get it. I can see why they would think like that.  Don't agree with the point of view. But I think if you can understand why they have it, I think that takes the edge off you going crazy idiot, lunatic, and you know, that quick rush to like they're all bunkers and stuff like that.

 I think that's, that's, that's perhaps a very good way to go about it. So already where we're seeing sort of a pattern here  from  Jordan and it was just, he's really just calling us out on our fixed mindsets and saying, Hey  he's obviously gone and read some Carol Dweck. She's, he's got a growth mindset happening and he's inviting different points of view.

He's inviting, you know, a little bit of  [00:23:00]self-reflection, don't be so quick, you know, in, in the first book he talked about like, don't go and shout about how dirty the street is, if your house isn't clean. Right. So it's a really interesting way he gets to this. I think something that  Really connects to these first two thoughts.

So abandon your ideologies as an exercise, be careful of all those biases. Don't rush to that judgment seek to understand like, so there's a nice build happening here. I think now if we swing it back at ourselves, I think there's actually another idea here.  That is really powerful. It's another one of his rules and this is  about this kind of idea of self accountability.

And it all is told through this idea of what's in the fog. Do you not hide unwanted things in the fog? Yeah, that's a good one. Imagine that you're wandering through the [00:24:00] fog and there's, and there's. There's pits that you could fall into and that there's there's knives that you could impale yourself on.

There's sharp edges everywhere. It's like, well, that's terrible. The world's, it's terrible that the world is full of pets and sharp edges and knives hidden in the fog. It's like, well, yeah, but what if you disperse the fog? Well, then the pits are still there. And so are the sharp edges in the knives, but you don't have to fall into them cause you can just walk around them, you know?

And that, that's another reason why it's so useful to face things. It's like, well, if you, if you, if you become articulate about what it is, that's disturbing you, then you sharpen up, you sharpen up your representations of the catastrophe, let's say, and then you can, then you can, it turns out that it's much more probable that you can deal with it, you know, when you can't be sure, because sometimes you're just screwed, you know?

Well, that's why you end up dying. Right. It's like, I'm dead serious about this. I don't want to be, you know, I don't want to [00:25:00] be stupidly optimistic sometimes and be backed into a corner and there's no escape that happens. But most of the time, it's not the case. Most of the time, if you, if you, if you're willing to make the situation clear, right.

Which is a matter of facing it and then clarifying it, it's a courageous thing to do. That's the beard, the dragon in it's Dan, you know, if you do that, then you find that the situation resolves into a set of problems that are smaller than you originally assumed they would be. And there's a much higher probability that you can decompose the problems and then start to address them.

And it doesn't matter because it's, it's your best bet. Like even if it doesn't work and it might not, it's like you don't have, or strategy, there is not a better strategy. There's not a better strategy than to seek out the dragon in its depth. Even though there's some possibility that you'll get burned to a crisp and that you won't get the gold, it's much better than waiting at home in your bed quivering while the thing grows and comes in and eats [00:26:00] you.

Cause then for sure you lose and that's pretty much how life works. Oh, I it's, it's one of Peterson's talents. Isn't it Mike, to tell such a, such a story with such a vivid imagery, connecting this rule two to two different stories there  the knives in the, in the fog, as well as the dragon and the den. I really like, and at the core of that, when I hear it, he's reminding me, Hey mark, remember life's full of knives.

So, and then maybe there's a dragon in the cave. And instead of being blind or insisting on that, maybe not being the case or instead bearing your head in the sand and not preparing for it. Then you might get burned to a crisp, or you might fall into the pit head instead of you can name the beast. And in fact, we've spoken about this on the show before, if you name the beast, if you know what's coming, you're [00:27:00] going to be much more likely to be able to put up with it and maybe get out of it even stronger than you imagined.

I like that, that final thing that he just actually referenced towards the end of the clip. When you do name it, sometimes it's smaller than you think.

Look there, there are so many builds on this. Let let's do this exercise of just showing how there is this magical intersection between what he's saying. And so many of the people, the superstars that we have studied my now, number one, Patrick Lensioni you mentioned earlier in the show, he talks about the key theme that a team needs to be able to do is talk about dragon, right?

To talk about the challenge, the, that have the hard conversations. In fact, Bernay brown wrote the book, braving the wilderness, which is all about, you know, boundaries and accountability. And this non-judgment right. And we know how popular [00:28:00] the Brenae brown  series was. But what's interesting as you can go right to Joe Rogan, remember he said, pretend there's a documentary crew filming your life.

That is to help you get to the dragons because you got to got to clean your room when the, when the crews filming, right. You've got to, if you want to perform in a team, you've got to be at a talk about hard things. You've got to have like Goggins talks about an, an accountability mirror. You got to look at yourself and face the dragons.

We talk about the, the problem of facing your demons. At some point, we must all come to terms with them. And I love this idea that he's basically saying, if you don't choose to go out and meet the dragon, the dragon is certainly going to come get you. It's inevitable. Great. Right. Isn't it amazing how this thought we could see  in anyone from Brenae brown, [00:29:00] Joe Rogan, Patrick Lensioni David Goggins and far beyond it's.

It's really, it's a fascinating theme that has come back so much on the moonshots podcast. Isn't it? I think it's for me, the, the proactiveness that a lot of these, yes, moonshot is, are demonstrating, you know, they're, they're all going out. And putting their front foot forward. So to seeking discomfort, they're seeking the discomfort and in doing so, they're getting stronger, they're getting better.

They're getting where they, where they are now they're becoming superstars. And you know, that's the call-out here. Isn't it in these, in these rules, as well as all the work that you've just mentioned. If you're proactive, you pay  pay careful attention to how you react to things. Then maybe you have a chance to do that learning and become that little bit better.

It's it's pretty, it can be a bit challenging there. Mike, I find sometimes admitting or naming the beast, naming the dragon. [00:30:00] It's pretty uncomfortable to do that. So I think the reason  why is for us self-reflection to know your dragons. I think when you name them, A lot of us feel either sort of guilty or just downright scared.

 So  I think what happens is our ego jumps in and says, oh, you know  I feel really bad. I kind of know I'm cheating on myself, right. In whatever. I dunno, eating snacks, not working out and not doing the work  leaving everything to the last minute, whatever it is. And I think we kind of help them fill this sort of guilt or fear.

And I think we're designed for fight or flight. And so when it's uncomfortable, we allow that ego trigger to just go, I don't want to [00:31:00] hear it. Or you blame someone else or whatever, don't you think that's probably the most fundamental thing. When we talk about naming your dragons  don't you think our.

When we're not at our best, we, we then choose to hide things in the fog because we don't want the uncomfortable truth. Yeah. I think it is. It's, it's confessing to ourselves that maybe we  have been a bit lazy or maybe where we're not sticking to our, our behavior that we wanted to try. And do you know much like the habits series with James clear, it's just the small incremental things that we can do each day.

Isn't it? It's very simple behavior changes. Maybe it's a new routine that you've got in your morning ritual that just enables you to get that little bit yeah. More reflective perhaps, but so like, how do you, how do you get [00:32:00] to that point of instituting? You know, New rituals, new habits. And what I'm going to suggest to you is that you need to use self reflection questions.

All right. I think you need to create whether it's  through, with a friend or better still through a journal. I think you really need to contemplate tough self-reflection questions, hit you with a few marks you want to say, and you tell me which one really kinda kind of gets to. Yeah, this is, this is good for the listeners.

Yeah, we're going indeed. Okay. So I'll give you, I'll give you five. This point. There's millions of good self-reflection here. Okay. Here's here's here's we'll start easy. Mark. Am I using my time wisely? That's nice. Okay. That's good. But now we're going to ramp it up a bit. Am I taking anything for [00:33:00] granted?

That's actually, that's a little bit tough. That's an uncomfortable admission. There you go. There you go. There you go. M I am playing a healthy perspective towards life. Oh  I'll give you two more. We're going to get really every now. Am I living true to myself? Yeah, that's totally. That's. That's you're going to need to work on, okay.

Okay. But what I'll do is I'll end up nice one. Okay. Am I waking up in the morning? Ready to take on the day. Oh, nice. There you go. So I didn't get too heavy on that, but they do. They do require. Yes. You have to have honest conversations with yourself, right? You need to reflect in order to, to answer those questions.

I think I truly believe that like, if you to get into the practice of asking those questions and then writing to them and you might need to write for days, if not weeks to them to build [00:34:00] a self-awareness. And it's amazing if you put your attention to those.  And there are, there are many, there are many ways to get to either the things that are really good in your life or the things that you need to improve.

 You know, you can, you can write to what worries you, you can write about your identity. You can write about your greatest fears. You know, there's many ways to go at it, but I would say if you want to slay the dragon as a fantastic way to start. Yeah. Yeah. That's nice. The reflection, I think, I think it's interesting also the connection that you made to sharing with others.

I think that's actually a pretty good  almost easier way to begin the journey. Actually, if you can, you know, keeping a journal, time's a little bit tough for people, but if you can at least say it out loud, it's that 1% at 1% difference, just you start to warm up to this idea of looking at what you're doing, reflecting on what [00:35:00] you've done and how you react to things.

And then yeah, you can take that one step further and  you know, that great proverb problem shared is a problem halved. Totally believe in that. It makes such a difference. It is. Cause we all get kind of caught in our mind and all wound up and you know, we get lost in the forest and you know, all of that sort of stuff, but I tell you, mark.

Who's not lost. We have one of our fabulous listeners who has. Opened has began a new journey for us. In fact, we have our first member of the Mitchell.

amazing off to the races, mark, how wonderful that one of our great listeners from you, it has opened up the moonshot members  room and is warming at nicely  with you and myself. And  it is [00:36:00] so delightful that this new chapter of dementia's podcast is on the way. Isn't it? I can't believe it. It's, it's so much  yeah, it fills me with so much excitement to know that we've got another member within the moonshots  family know somebody who's there  behind the scenes with us and, and able to interact with us.

I can't wait to, to bring them in and get them excited with us. Yeah. So if you go to moonshot stud IO, you click on the members button at the top and you can become a member. And what that does is open up a world to you where we  depending on which membership you take, if you take a moonshot or you get to  be part of all of the shows, leave comments because, you know, frankly, all the podcasting apps kind of suck.

If you've tried the new apple one, I had such high expectations. The fact that neither Spotify or apple give you any real chance to talk about what was on the show.  It's very noninteractive  if you go and become a [00:37:00] member, you'll be able to comment where we share all our content. So just go to moonshots.io, become a member, and you'll be part of the conversation.

And if you really want to ramp it up, You can actually go for a moonshot master membership where you get exclusive access to our new show mark, or that is shaping up to be a cracker. We are now in the month of June, our production work will be finished. All the research will be finished tomorrow, and we will be launching in June our first of the moonshot master series.

And these are wildly different in format to this show. Aren't they? They are, they're going to be much more  orientated around the connections that you and I have found with our moonshot entrepreneurial superstars and in general legends, it's amazing the patterns, the themes, that little line that connects [00:38:00] all of these incredible names that we've covered.

Mike, over 130 shows. I know we keep on finding these. Elements of DNA, that's consistent across a lot of their behaviors, their reactions, their reflections and so on. So for us to really have an opportunity and a platform to delve further into those themes, those connections and DNA molecules that say  I think it's going to be really fun for both you and I, as well as all of our members to experience.

Well, what we're going to do is basically reveal the hidden code that we've discovered in the moonshots podcast. And that is that we can see our relationship. The first show that we're working on for the moonshot master series is going to be on motivation. And we're able to draw a line between author Daniel pink  entrepreneur, Gary Vaynerchuk, lady Gaga, David Goggins, Jordan Peterson.

They all. Have this [00:39:00] rich thinking that interconnects around motivation. So each show this one, first one will be the old summit  capsule of what it takes. I find motivation to be the best version of yourself. So we've got some fascinating things we're going to delve into.  the Japanese practice of motivation and purpose.

We're going to look at Daniel Pink's model. There's so much. Passion purpose, autonomy, curiosity. Oh, there's so many good frameworks. And we're going to give  worksheets that you can then apply these all to yourself. You'll often hear in the show that we're riffing about the ways you can get things done.

Well, the, what we do with the master series is we actually give you these practical worksheets and canvases. So you can just self apply so you can do it. And we are going to go on such a journey. So we're going to do motivation. Then we'll probably do one of the mental models, probably first principles, because it's one of my [00:40:00] favorites and we get to delve into people like Musk and Peter teal.

We're obviously going to do. Teamwork, big theme of the show. Michael Jordan, Patrick Lencioni two wildly different people, but there is a model. There is a connective tissue. There's a secret sauce. We found it and we're going to share it with you on the moonshot master series. So if you want to get that, you'll need to become a member, go over to moonshots.io, click on the big member button and join him because there is so much good stuff there where really at this point where we've studied so many people that we've kind of cracked this formula and we will give you that secret code.

So I invite you to become a member. Thank you to our first member in Europe. We really do appreciate you launching this program. So head over to moonshots.io, if you want some inspiration to get [00:41:00] things moving. So you can be the best version of yourself now being the best version of yourself, I can think of no better idea than one of these Jordan Peterson roles to get us into being the best we can be.

That's right. This next rule that we're going to hear from Peterson is a bit of a call-out mic. This is a good reminder from Peterson to tell us, you know, not to sit around and just accept life as it comes, but instead have a little bit more awareness about the sort of things that you have to put into it in order to get out the result that you're looking for.

So this next rule we're going to hear from Jordan Peterson is how we can aim single-mindedly at a target. And so imagine who you could be and then aim single-mindedly at that. See, I liked that one. The single-mindedly part is an interesting one. I learned this at least in part from niches, you know, when you're a kid [00:42:00] in principle, you could be anything which is kind of the, one of the wonderful things about being a kid.

And then one of the painful things about growing up and being an adult is that, well, you can't just stay B and everything. That's the story of Peter pan, right? Pan means everything. And Peter pan is this magical child, you know, who can do anything, but he's  he's got a strange kingdom, right? He's king of the lost boys, which perhaps isn't the kingdom that you want to rule over.

And, and so, and he doesn't grow up. And so he falls in love with Wendy. And Wendy grows up and she has a family. She gets old, she stops being a child, but she has a family. She has a husband and she has a family. She has a life. And Peter pan just stays at Neverland, which has also a hint on the part of the reader.

And he stays magical. And content's himself with Tinkerbell, who I was thinking of her as the porn fairy and

yeah. Got all the advantages of femininity, except she's not real. [00:43:00] Yeah.

And so, you know, Peter, Peter pan, he doesn't want to grow up partly because his role model is captain hook and captain hook. Well, you think about he's a pirate, so he's kind of a tyrant and he's also a coward and he's a coward because he's, well, he's afraid at least because he's being chased by a crocodile with the clock in his stomach.

You think, what the hell does that mean? He's being chased by a, at what does that mean? It's like, well, it's already got a piece of him, right? It's bitten off his hand. It liked the taste. Well, it's time. That's why the clock is there. You know, it's time. And the crocodile is that terrible force that lies underneath everything that waits to pull you down, like it's mortality itself and that thread of mortality.

And the reason that captain hook is a tyrant is because he's afraid of death. And so that makes him a tyrant and a cowardly tyrant. And Peter pan looks at the cowardly tyrant and he thinks, well, I don't want to grow up to be that. And it's like, well, fair enough. You know, but what are you going to do not grow up?

Well, then you stay king of the lost boys and you have [00:44:00] Tinkerbell and life goes on and that's not a good outcome. And so, you know, you have to make a sacrifice when you grow up. You have to become something and to become something means to not become a whole bunch of other things. Like it's sad, it's a sacrifice.

But the thing about the sacrifices that you end up with something rather than nothing at all,

you know, the funny thing about this clip is it reminds me of the fact of how all the, there is no overnight success. It is about the grind over the long-term. It's about the compound interest of doing something every day and just focusing on one thing and sticking with it over time. I think in a world that is so trained on instant gratification, I think this is such timely advice, man.

Yeah. Instant gratification overnight success, whether it's Bitcoin or cryptocurrency or, you know, Elon Musk, whatever it is, everybody assumes. Oh [00:45:00] yeah. Well, I that's where I want to be, but. They don't necessarily, unless they've listened to the moonshots podcast. Of course, of course, no, we need to be a master series member,

but the grind that these superstars and entrepreneurs have put into their, their careers, you know, mask, do you remember the amazing story of him having to accept that his heroes, the astronauts from America kind of turning away from musters ambition? That's the grind, that's the sacrifice that he had to make in order to get where he was going and that  fear of failure  is one of those sacrifices that I think you, you kind of have to put up with or get through.

And as long as, like you say, you stay focused on that goal and put in the grind, put in the hustle slowly over time. You get to that destination become maybe the, a better version of Peter pan. How many, how deep is Peter pan? Oh my gosh. I never [00:46:00] knew there was so much inner, but to me, this is  you know, I want to steal a little bit from Paul Graham.

Who's been one of our real popular shows. We did Paul, I think, in the twenties or so definitely a couple of years ago. And he continues to be very popular. And I think one of the thoughts he has that really relates to this was that survival is success. Now, to explain that a little bit  he's saying that within the context of  starting a business, doing a startup and you know, very often within the first couple of years, most startups.

Most new businesses fail. So once you get to like four or five years, you'd be lucky if one in 10 businesses are still going, that's just the numbers game. That's just how it is. It's like anything in life. A lot of people don't stick with things. So if you can train yourself to pick a thing and stick with it over time  great things can happen.

I would only reflect on the [00:47:00] first show we did of moonshots. So 130 shows ago. I think we may be in that month, maybe got 500 listens. And this month in the month just passed. We had 30,000 listeners. Wow. But Hey, two and a half years ago, I was only a couple of hundred people.  Probably half of those were, was my mum hitting refresh.

So the point here is you got to stick with it. And I meet so many people who want to get into podcasting. And  you know, they asked me about how to think about it or any, any thoughts. And  so many of the people I've talked to over the last few years have not stuck with it. Some. The old one actually launched, but most never even got there.

You got to pick a thing and go after it, don't you? Yeah. You really do. You really do. And Mike, what I build on that actually is, [00:48:00] is the next rule that we're here from Peterson  which I think is around opportunity and spotting, where there might be a gap in, let's say the podcast landscape perhaps, and how, when you notice that potential opportunity, or maybe it's a weakness of others, that can be a gift.

So this next rule we're going to have from Peterson is how to step into areas that others might be afraid of. Okay. So the Pharaoh was pretty impressed by this dream interpretation and pretty worried about it. And I guess he's a reasonable person, despite the fact that he put Joseph in jail, I guess he didn't have much choice.

Now, therefore, let Pharaoh look for a man to discreet and wise and set him over the land of Egypt. Let Pharaoh do this and let him appoint officers over the lamb. This is what Joseph is saying and take up the fifth part of the land of Egypt in the seven plenteous years. Yes. Let them gather all the food of those good years that come and lay up corn under the hand of Pharaoh and let them keep food in the cities.

[00:49:00] And just like that, Joseph has restored to his position. So Pharaoh said unto Joseph, I am Pharaoh. And without the shall no man lift up his hand or foot in all of the land of Egypt. And so he comes out of the prison and really, in some sense, as far as I'm concerned, he actually occupies a position that's higher than the position of the Pharaoh.

It depends on how you look at it because the Pharaoh has relegated himself to ceremonial status. Right? Joseph has all the responsibility. He makes all the decisions. So defacto he's the Pharaoh. He doesn't get the glory precisely, although he's not doing too bad for himself. Not that there's a lesson in that too.

I wrote these rules for Quora a long time ago, and one of them, I I've written them into this. Some of them into this book, you guys got a pamphlet about today. One of the rules that I didn't write about was  note that responsive note, that opportunity lurks, where responsibility has been abdicated, which is really interesting.

I think, I mean, I've seen people in their [00:50:00] jobs. They say things like, well, my, the guy I worked with doesn't do any work. It's like, well, you could do it. I mean, I know there's limits to that, but one of the things you can do at work is make yourself indispensable. I mean, you might get the cane types against you if you do that.

But there's something to be said for being indispensable because when people start to be dispensed with you probably won't be one of them. Or even if you are, then the fact that you're indispensable just means you can go somewhere else and be indispensable there. Now it's just as useful. So it's very, very difficult to permanently put down someone who's really good at doing things because they can just go off and do them somewhere else.

And one of the ways that you get like that is to take responsibility when someone else is failing to do so. And you think, well, I shouldn't have to do that. That's one way of thinking about it. Another other way of thinking about it is, oh, good. I get to do that. So when I hear this. I [00:51:00] think this is such a big moment that comes up in our lives, where we're in some sort of organization of a team, be it family, friends, or work, someone was meant to do something and it didn't happen.

Right. Isn't it interesting how often we are all quick to judge them and say, oh, they let us down. Are them are that, but what Jordan is to saying, oh, fantastic. Well, maybe I can do it. Right. Let me take care of that. I have an opportunity, but isn't it interesting that so often socially we rushed to call people out for not fulfilling their role, whatever that was.

And what he's saying is what a great opportunity coming your way. You should embrace that. This is how you can, can contribute. Well, I, I would connect connected to the first rule that we heard today. They abandoned ideology. If let's say that the ideology that I might have  [00:52:00] intrinsically is to, I don't know, point the finger, I'm going to point the finger and I'm going to see other people's failures as  our wins.

It's their fault on the, on the rubbish. Instead, if I can abandon that and I can abandon that the standard way judgment, exactly that judging, mindful approach or that mindset. And I can redo it. I can adopt a bit more of a growth mindset from Carol and really focus on, okay, well, let me change the way that I respond to perhaps the weaknesses of others and I can build on it.

I can step in and help them. How great would that be? It's  but it's not easy. W we're so tempted to point the fingers and accusations and judgment and  Yeah. That's certainly one thing that I'm trying to improve about myself is just, don't be in such a rush to judge others. There's this great wisdom.

And I don't know if we've ever had a clip on it, which is to never judge a man for you do [00:53:00] not know the battles he is fighting. Yeah, I like that.  A lot. And, and, and sometimes I'll try and remember that Mike, if I've got a challenge with  you know  a partner at work or a customer or whoever it is, or somebody in the street, even, you know, you're waiting in a queue and somebody cuts in front and you don't know the background, do you, you only know the in fact, the only thing you know, is how you're responding.

That's the only thing you can control. You don't know what they've had to deal with today or in the past. And actually just giving them that little bit of space and maybe even helping them out. Hey, that's such a, a nicer way of existing, isn't it? It really is. And look. It wouldn't be right if we didn't cover off the last of Jordan's rules.

And I'll tell you what, this is a big one full of challenging you on, are you living your purpose? Are you being [00:54:00] the best version of yourself? So let's have a listen to the man once again. So here he is. Mr. Jordan Peterson do not do things that you hate. That's a variant. And I wrote a rule in the first book, which was tell the truth, or at least don't lie.

And then I formulated it that way because, well, you don't know how to tell the truth because what the hell do you know? And, but you, you can maybe not lie. Cause sometimes, you know, you're going to say something and you know, it's a lie and you could just not lie. And sometimes you just don't know. And well then, you know, you're ignorant and that's irreducible in some sense, but so maybe you can't tell the truth because you don't know the truth, but you can not lie.

And this is the behavioral equivalent of this. You know, because you shouldn't do things that you hate. It's the same as like, it's just, it's the acting out of a lie think. Well, I have to do things that I hate. It's like, well, don't be so sure about that. Or maybe you have an ethical law. It [00:55:00] doesn't maybe, maybe that's not a good enough reason.

Maybe you have an ethical obligation to not do things you hate the same way that you have an ethical obligation not to lie and the excuse while I had to do. It's not, it, it might even be, it might even be valid in some sense, because you can find yourself in situations where you're terribly constrained.

The problem is it's not helpful. You know, it lies we'll come back to haunt you. And the same thing happens when you do things that you hate. It's the behavioral equivalent of a lie. It will absolutely come back to haunt you. And if you're in a situation where you're required to do that, for whatever reason, well, that's terrible for you.

And maybe there's no way out of it or no simple way out of it, but you're gonna, you're going to be punished for it. And not least by yourself, not least by the degeneration of your character, which is a terrible thing, because you actually need your character in order to survive. Right. Your character is the strength that you have to bring to bear in the world.

And if you compromise that well, then you will absolutely pay for that. So, yeah, [00:56:00] it's, it's Jordan bringing us home and inspiring us for the rest of the day, Mike, because what do you think is what are examples of don't do things that you hate because in a way we've talked about resilience, haven't we  to fight through tough things.

So where's the line when you shouldn't be doing things you hate? Well, let me, let me try and describe it or break it down in the way that my brain is processing it. I hope it's not going to get too    granular or too airy fairy, but I'm sure with your help, my, we can, we can simplify a little bit. I believe that that rule.

Do not do what you hate is a call-out and it's safe to us. You need to set aside the time to take a look at what is around you. Be aware of, maybe the things that you like as well as the things that you hate or that you don't like and know that you have ownership to change it. So do not do what you hate.

[00:57:00] You need to know what you hate first, and then you need to know how you can go out and action it and go out and change that situation. And I believe it's not only external on the surface. It sounds as though I'll, don't do a job if you hate it. I actually think it's more internal and the only way in order to go out and understand what you internally don't like is journaling.

No, the value of journaling. No, the value of self-improvement. I, yeah. And I think what he's saying is in line with, you know, how people would talk about someone being in a destructive relationship. Exactly. I think people who choose to keep going and doing that, I think also people who are doing things that are not part of their purpose that create no satisfaction.

I forget happiness that there is no satisfaction, no fulfillment, no purpose in the activity. Then I think that's when you [00:58:00] are doing something that you hate. And I think that word hate here is like, when you're telling a lie to yourself, because nobody should be doing something every day, that is a lie to themselves that they truly hate.

Exactly. But, but I, I, yeah, I think the, I think the tendency. For, for a lot of us would be just to put up with it, right. Because we think, oh, well, I, I can't really change it, but it's, it's what we heard from Adam Grant. You can change it. I would say that there's mindsets in your behavior that you kind of hate as well.

I hate  anxiety or I hate feeling uncomfortable in public situations. Again, those things are things that you can control. If you can master your mindset. Am I getting a little bit too? No, I'm following. So I think where you're going is like the line here is when, [00:59:00] when you are living in a way that is completely disconnected to your purpose  to your things that would give you some meaning in life.

So fulfillment and satisfaction. And like grinding through challenge is one thing or overcoming, you know, things that you need to improve in yourself. That's not a hate thing. Right? I hate thing is when you're diametrically opposed to the direction in which you should be going, like, if you can't say, Hey, I'm doing this today.

So I can be over here tomorrow. If you're just in a world of pain and suffering  then you're only cheating yourself in the end. And exactly you're the one being cheated. Yeah. You really, really are. Mark so much. I mean, no wonder we have to cut these shows up in the books, up into pods. There is, I mean, we would need two hours to do the whole book and we, I [01:00:00] mean, we ha we, we could go so much deeper couldn't we?

Yeah, we could. And, and what's great for you and I is, we can actually dig into the next six rules of Jordan. Peterson's beyond order 12 more rules for life in show 131 MC next week, those final six of his book beyond order we can dig into and hoof, I like the upcoming 12, as much as, as today's. I think this is going to be great for us.

Yeah. So, and, and what a, what a body of work across his two books  from Jordan Peterson, I mean, it's really, really great stuff.  So my big question is, are you abandoning your ideologies now that you've had, you know, Jordan Peterson has made his case? Do you, are you abandoning? Yeah, I think, you know, again, building on the grant  ground Slater's book, I really do.

I believe that's a great connection that we can, we can try and change that mindset we have control over. I totally agree. I totally agree. Very timely. Indeed. I think at a time where the world has changed [01:01:00] so much, we have, have to be nimble, less rigid and, you know, basically calibrate with the new world and the new reality we're in and be careful not to, to bring too much baggage from our bias and our past and just judge for ourselves what the world is truly about.

That's it. Exactly. Well, mark. Thank you. Thank you to you on this rip-roaring adventure into the world of Jordan Peterson, and thank you to you. Our listeners, thank you for joining us to dig into the book beyond order from Jordan Peterson, where it is fresh off the press. And we are diving into a world, which is challenging us to echo on how we think.

And that starts with abandoning ideology because life really isn't black and white. And what we must really do is be very careful not to rush. Into judgment to have more of a [01:02:00] balance. And we know that if we truly want to be the best version of ourselves, Hey, a new moonshot is we know that's you, that you have to go after the jury and slide, as Peterson would say, do not hide unwanted things in the fault.

And the turning point came in. Today's show where we could see resilience and we can really be proud of the grind. What beta us invited us to do was to imagine who you could be. And then aim single-mindedly at that thing. Notice that the opportunity looks where responsibility has been abdicated. Yes, you can step into the fold.

You can step into the arena and you can do things that are true to your purpose, to your vision, to the meaning of yourself, do not do what you hate. And if you follow these six rules from Jordan Peterson, you'll truly be on the way to being the [01:03:00] very best version of yourself. That's it for the moonshots wrap.