Jordan Peterson: 12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos, Rules 7-12

episode 129

SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Welcome to the moonshots podcast. It's episode 129. I'm your co-host Mike Parsons. And as always, I'm joined by the man with a plan. Mr. Mark Pearson Freeland. Good morning, mark. Hey, good morning, Mike. I hope you and I continue having this antidote to chaos that we seem to be finding. I know, is that not a great payoff to a book title by Jordan Peterson and antidote to chaos, because it feels like the world is pretty chaotic.

It feels like everything is trying to steal our time and attention. And you just need a little bit of time to think don't we? Yeah, we really do. And that's why I'm excited with today's episode, Mike, you know, we're at show 129 and we're in part two of our 12 rules for life (buy on Amazon) and, and stoked to chaos by Jordan Peterson.

I mean, last week we had episode 128 where we visited those first six rules of the book from 2018. But this [00:01:00] week, Mike, I think we've got another action packed episode where we dig into the followup and the second six of his 12 rules for life. I'm pretty excited by all of that. I thought last week was pretty powerful.

Yeah. And  he's got a little knack for using little metaphor and stories so that they don't feel too hefty. And you have to remember that Jordan Peterson is not only an academic, but actually a psychiatrist. So he's seen lots of people he's studied the practice. And hence he came up with these 12 rules because he thought if I could tell my patients, you know, a couple of thoughts that he's  had after talking to so many people, these are the 12 rules (buy on Amazon).

And last week we had some great ones, like standing up straight with your shoulders back  and  befriend the people who want the best for you. These, I mean, it's just timeless wisdom to help us lead. Good life  to lead a life where we can be the best version of [00:02:00] ourselves. And today we're doing the second half of the book and there's some big chunky ones ahead.

So what I would say, if you're working on everything from purpose  or humility  or helping others be the best version of themselves, then stay tuned because we've got so many Jordan Peterson clips to plow you with to inspire you and all the time we're going to be learning out loud together. We're going to be asking ourselves.

How do we do it? And that's kind of critical, isn't it? Markers. We really want to understand how we do this wisdom that Jordan Peterson has to share. Yeah. Yeah. And I think the word there is, is inspiration as well as guidance. Yeah. I think a lot of the series that we found on Georgia piece in so far with regards to last week and those clips that you said it for me  the one that stood out the most was [00:03:00]  compare yourself.

 To who you were yesterday, rather than who's somebody else's today. And that's  that's a pretty powerful clip that, you know, sounds pretty essential, but sometimes pretty hard to do. And I think this week, and today's show again, we're going to be revealing  these, these rules of Jordans that should help us achieve the best version of ourselves.

Well, I mean, we've got an action packed show, so I think we should throw ourselves in  in classic moonshot style, let's get stuck into it, mark. So where do you want to kick off the second half of Jordan Peterson's book? We're going to hit actually Mike, a bit of a  a two hander here  a punch  from both left and right hooks.

And this first clip we got from John Peterson is actually introducing two rules at the same time, rule seven, do what is meaningful as well as relate. Tell the truth. So let's hear from John Peterson, give us this one, two punch about the pursuing [00:04:00] truth. Rule seven is do what is meaningful and not what is expedient.

And I would say in some sense, that's the core ethos of the book. Not exactly because rule eight, which is tell the truth, or at least don't lie as a necessary conjunction to that, or a unnecessary, additional element, because I don't think that you can pursue what is meaningful without telling the truth.

And the reason for that is don't tell the truth, or let's say if you lie, which is an easier way to think about it. You corrupt the mechanisms, the instinctual mechanisms that manifest themselves as meaning, and then you can't trust them. And that's a very bad idea. So the fundamental reason to not lie is because you corrupt your own perceptions.

If you lie, and when you corrupt your own perceptions, then you can't rely on yourself. And if you can't rely on yourself, then, well, good luck to you because what are you going to rely on in the absence of your own [00:05:00] judgment? You've got nothing. If you, if you lose that rule, eight is, as I said, tell the truth there don't or at least don't why mark.

 I think he's not talking about, like, when you get caught  stealing a cookie out of the cookie, did you steal a cookie? Now? I have a feeling he's going for something bigger here. What do you think? Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree. I think he's, he's calling us out. He's calling out the fact that if you, you know, lie to yourself, then you have a tendency to perhaps influence the way that you behave, the way that you interpret actions of others and the way that you kind of interact with the world.

That's, that's what I'm getting from, from these two rules. And I think to build on that, he goes to a place where he really reveals the core of the book, which is to do what is meaningful, not what is expedient. And I think [00:06:00] my, this might be one of the biggest themes, not only of Peterson's work, but of the moonshots podcast itself because after 129 episodes, I can tell you this idea of doing what matters, doing things of impact, doing things where true value is created, right?

Things that make you feel fulfilled.  Satisfied maybe a bit happy, maybe that you feel like you've achieved your purpose. You're finding some meaning in life, which is truly the greatest pursuit versus what is expedient. And I think this is where we cheat ourselves is where we tell those lies. He's basically saying don't take the easy path, take the hard path.

And once you get this thought to there, what you can see is that this is so deeply related to the advice that we've [00:07:00] had from so many people. Authors academics, even Joe Rogan, himself Jocko, Willink, where they talk about embracing Dick discomfort problems as Jaco would say are good. Yeah, I think you're right.

 This, this is the antidote to the chaos of life. When we're surrounded by distractions, by individuals who might have what we think we want. And I want to reemphasize that word. You think that you want something when the truth is it doesn't really matter. This is Jordan calling out to us find what is that meaningful thing?

Isn't it? The expedient idea and the expedient reference. I think he's going for there. At least in my mind is something that's kind of convenient. Maybe it's as you say, makes work easy. Yeah. It's less work. And it's a means to an end. I'm I'm running after [00:08:00] a big payoff. I'm running after at success of some kind, but I'm not willing to put in that work and that's a pretty easy trap to fall into Mike.

Isn't it? You know, if you've put in a lot of work into your career, sometimes you expect something to be to you expect that you've reached that end goal when perhaps that's maybe your ego talking. Yeah. Yeah. I, I think you're at, you're definitely going in the right direction here, I think. Is that the truth or where the place from which this advice comes from is that if you are doing something worthwhile, always Peterson would say meaningful, right?

You have to, you must, except that it will not be easy. And I think it is in this that you can go to another step and say, if it's starting to hurt, then you know, [00:09:00] you're doing the right thing. And I'm not talking about putting yourself in jeopardy here.  Do you use a gym?  Now if you're working out and you're like, ah, this is really bad, then you know that you're truly, you're truly doing the right thing.

You really, you really do know that.  The  I think that the, the important thing here is this, once you say it yourself, okay. I am prepared to follow. My purpose to live my purpose, to be the best version of ourselves, which is everything this show is about once you've kind of establish that. The next thing you can say, it's going to be hard, ugly, uncomfortable.

And I'm okay with that. And I think it's at this point where many of us struggle, because we're like, well, I've been doing this for a couple of years and I'm not getting the results [00:10:00] as Goggins would say, don't give up. Right. Don't let go and take the expedient path that Peterson is talking about because you know, it's really interesting how this comes back to.

 One of the clips we had on Joe Rogan and he was talking about like, who wants to win the lottery man? Like, that's going to feel good for like a half a second. Right. And there's a lot of studies to too. Yes. That winning the lottery is actually not like a great thing. Right. I don't know if you've heard.

What about all of the  it causes chaos in people's lives. They have all this money. They don't know how to manage it. People start trying to like grab that money in some nefarious way.  So Rogan talks about God, earn it. How much better is it going to feel? You might have a 10th of money, but you weren't every single dollar and that is doing, what is it meaningful?

Not what is expedient mark? I would say the reason this is so had to truly practice is we are presented with what [00:11:00] I call the solution of the overnight success. We all think these amazing people came out of nowhere. But what we've discovered on this show is there's enormous sacrifice for people.  You know, I remember Jack Mar got rejected from 38 job applications before he got his first job.

He went on to create Alibaba. Of course, my point is this, I think so much happens when you say problems. Good. Uncomfortable. Yeah. It's almost the same thing I do when I'm running really fast when I'm doing, looking outside and it feels pretty uncomfortable. I know that I'm entering a stretch zone, a healthy push of my limits.

And I think another thing that just to wrap this up, Is what we've also learned is that we have far more potential than we know. If only we can accept that the pursuit of [00:12:00] meaningful  action is inviting challenge hardship into your life. If you can just accept that and go through it. I mean, think of people that run 100 mile races, what we we've been thought unheard of impossible.

50 years ago, people now run that, pushing the limits saying, Hey, I'm prepared to go through the discomfort. I think this is our, one of our greatest challenges societaly now is to be prepared to do the hard work because our minds are polluted by social media, all these false overnight success stories, or these six pack.

Abs all of these women that just look like they're from the planet, Venus, you know, all of these manufactured  propaganda  that everyone's, else's living the perfect life. The answer is no is hard. It's [00:13:00] hard, but you got to do it. If you want to be the best version of yourself, embrace the hardship, right?

Yeah. That is the antidote to chaos. The thing I'm reminded of as, as you were talking, is that amazing story from Matthew McConaughey. Where he, he gets those offers for them romcom. Yeah. And gradually it goes up from, you know, I think it was four or 5 million, eight, then 10 and 12. And I think it was settled 15 and he just keeps on saying no, no.

And, and that, that would be the easy way out. Wasn't it? That would be the expedient way, but he knew in his heart that he wanted to find that more meaningful route or more meaningful journey. And what happens two years later, he doesn't work for two years. He's in that valley of darkness, wondering if he'll ever work again, but he stays true.

He stays on the path towards meaning and he does. He comes out the other side and finds the [00:14:00] journey that he was looking for. There's more meaningful, meaningful roles. There's more meaningful stories that he wanted to tell in, in, in Hollywood and on TV and film. I think that's a great example, actually, Mike, of some of the other individuals that we've learned from.

That brings to life, this, this truth of meaning and this truth of, you know, seeking  that, that honesty in your life. I think, I think that's really is the antidote to chaos that you were just saying and the busy-ness of life and distractions, social media, and so on getting in our way. It's so easy to fall into that.

I have one Rob last thought and I know listeners, you're probably thinking, geez, they're banging on about this one a lot. It was two rooms in one, say, give us, give us a break. It was two rules, but I, but I do think Jordan  Peterson suggested this might be kind of the gist to the whole book. I think there is like another way of expressing  [00:15:00] these thoughts from Peterson that we've been exploring about meaning and versus expediency.

And I think  You know, this idea of being prepared to do the hard work today and defer results  for a later point in time. And I think  this differing of instant gratification, I think if we get to like a habit where we are right now in how we live and work as a society, I think we have an enormous challenge with this, because I think about this idea of, I love reading.

And so if I think our, you know, I'd really love to read something about this or someone recommends something.  For example, you know, mark, I recommend and did a documentary to you yesterday. And by yesterday evening, you'd already, we watched it. I think about this idea of, I I'd really like to read a particular book [00:16:00] within a nanosecond.

I jumped on my Kindle. There it is. Okay. There was no difference of gratification. Now go back to your back in the good old days, I used to have to go to the library to get a book or go into town to buy the book.  And you know, I would hear about a lot less books, of course. So my point is this. Whether it's books, movies, content, whether it's Uber eats, everything is out our door.

In a nanosecond. We are in a world of real time, instant gratification. Yet the greatest irony is that being the best version of yourself is a sacrifice. Now gain later paradigm. It is deferred gratification, and this is why I think so many people get off track because they get so many things in a moment.

 It even got to the point where when you have these buy now pay later [00:17:00] services where they say, Hey, you can't afford it. Don't worry. Buy it now. And we'll sort out the payment later. I mean, that is living beyond your means. People like don't do this. Like if you don't have the cash, don't buy it. And frankly, you know, it's just another thing anyway.

So I think mark. The reason that we struggle so much to find meaning satisfaction and fulfillment in life. Yes. There's a proxy here of happy, you know, and we've got like generations growing up now that are more clinically depressed than any other generation. And I believe it's because they're getting everything now yet the true meaning of life satisfaction and fulfillment lays in a lot of sacrifice now and for gains in the future.

I think that is why it's so damn hard. Right. Yeah, it's, it's, it's the instant, it's the [00:18:00] expectation that I will get that result straight away. And I'm, I'm pretty guilty of it, Mike, you know, I'll, I'll often think, okay, well, I've put in all this hard work on a project or research or collaboration, whatever it might be.

And I do as, as Jordan calls out in, in  particularly rural hate, tell the truth, or at least don't lie when he says to, to us, you know, don't lie to ourselves because then you, you corrupt your perception. That's me corrupting my perception. Isn't it. That's me thinking. Well, I've earned it. I've put in that hard work.

I, I'm not thinking about what the other person wants. I'm just only focusing on me at that point. Yeah. Yeah. I, I totally, I totally hear you. I think that the  the, the last thought that I would love us to kind of discuss before we go to the rest of the rules is. In true moonshot style. I think we have to ask ourselves, how [00:19:00] might we, what could we do?

Okay. So we finished recording the show. W what would be, I think you would do, if you said, look, I need to kind of get myself on track to make sure I'm being the best version of myself. What can I do to make sure I'm not taking the shortcuts, but I'm really, you know, sacrificing now and for, for enjoying the gains  later, what do we do, Mac?

Well, I, I think something that comes to my mind as we reflect on the way that we work is, is collaboration or communication with another. So what we've discussed on the show before  and I believe it was the, the Lencioni series that we did on, on teamwork and collaboration  as, as well as maybe Abby Wamback as well is you utilize those around you in order to be the best version of yourself.

So. If you are playing in your own sport, [00:20:00] if I'm by myself, if I'm working alone, I might have the tendency to then fall into the trap of saying, oh, well, I've done it correctly, but only when you share it or communicate it with somebody else. Right. Do you get that, that feedback? And I think that's perhaps how I keep myself on track.

When I go out and seek that little bit of collaboration, I would say that  a build on that is you can share your goals with people that care about you in a way for them to hold you accountable. Yes. You know, like, Hey, I want to run that marathon. Okay. Oh, Hey mark. You been, I mean, doing that training, isn't that marathon coming up?

Well  if you see I've been busy  I would say  dare to ask yourself, who do I want to be right about it.  How do I want to live my life, write about it  manifest it  [00:21:00]not only  through writing, but take time to meditate on the, the vision you have of who you want to be.  Don't do vaguely having this idea.

I want to be kind of a good guy and I want to like help out a bit define that. Right. So put those two together, sharing those things and defining those things. So share it with others for a bit of mutual accountability  and  write it down, get it. Yeah.  Don't make your dreams a secret. All right.

Try and close the gap between the, the dream you have of who you want to be and how you behave today. Try and close that gap by manifesting it by writing it down, sharing it with others. I think that's a very. A good way to have the courage to dream, but also make yourself a bit vulnerable and accountable to that.

And I think a, a last thought here. Is when you [00:22:00] build these habits, routines and practices, whether it's waking up early getting into bed early, so you can wake up early, whether it's  doing stretches, whether it's cold showers, whether it's, whatever your habits are, build these habits. So they are like a rock.

If you know, for myself, I know I'm at my best in the mornings. So, you know, what if like mission number one to get my ass into bed early, because I wake naturally at about a five 36 o'clock.  Region. And so the beautiful thing is that I don't need to set an alarm if I'm getting into bed early. Cause I'll just naturally wake when my body has had sufficient sleep.

Now that's, that's how I'm trying to find meaning in my life. So ask yourself, do I have the right routines, habits and rituals that set me up for success and practice those every single day. Make sure they [00:23:00] support your goals, your vision of yourself, and dare to share it with people around you so that they can hold you accountable.

I mean, that's my humble shot at try and find meaning at live. Mark. Does that make any sense at all? I think, I think the holding yourself accountable by telling others is one of the piece of advice from Stephen Covey, seven habits of highly effective people, I believe. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. All right. I think we have, we have taken meaning and we have extracted maximum moonshot.

Goodness. The interesting thing about Peterson is like he totally  has the capacity to jump from wisdom about sort of the intrinsic self and that also how we deal with others. Say a little bit more on the extrinsic  world. And we've got a great clip now and it's all about  you know, the art of conversation and discussion.

And so often we're banging on  trying to be [00:24:00] the smartest guy in the room, but he's got some different thinking. So let's have a listen to Jordan Peterson discussing listening. Chapter nine is assumed that the person you are listening to might know something you don't. This is a chapter about conversation and about the different forms conversation takes.

And it's a chapter about humility and it's a chapter book listening and the humility element is. It took me a long time to understand why there's religious injunctions, supporting humility, to even understand what the word really meant and that sort of technical sense. And it means something like this.

It means what you don't know is more important than what you know. And that's a lovely thing to then, then what you don't know can start to be your friend. You see people are very defensive about what they know and for the reasons we've already discussed. But the thing is, you don't know enough. And the re you can tell you don't know enough because your life is not what it could be.

And neither is the life of the people around you. You just don't know enough. And so what that means is [00:25:00] that every time you encounter some evidence that you're ignorant, someone points it out. You should be happy about that because you think, oh, you just told me how I'm wrong. It's like, Great. Like maybe I had to sift through a lot of nonsense to get through the real message that you're telling me.

But if you could actually tell me some way that I'm wrong and it may give me a hint about how to not be wrong like that. Well, then I wouldn't have to be wrong like that anymore. That that would be a good thing. And you can, you can, you can embark on that adventure by listening to people. And if you listen to people, they will tell you, they'll tell you amazing things.

If you listen to them. And many of those things are little tools that you can put in your toolkit, like Batman, and then you can go out into the world and use those tools and you don't have to fall blindly into a pit quite as often. And so the humility element as well, do you want to be right? Or do you want to be learning?

And it's deeper than that. It's do you want to be the tyrannical king? Who's already got everything figured out or do you want to be the continually [00:26:00] transforming hero or fool for that matter? Who's getting better all the time. Mm. I mean, Mike, I kind of feel as though he's, he's calling you and I out as  as what we do on moonshots, you know, this is kind of something that we are trying to embrace ourselves.

Isn't it? We're trying to say there are tools, there are advice there's guidance out there amongst our entrepreneurs, our superstars innovators, psychologists, authors, everybody that we have covered and we'll cover on the moonshots podcast. I feel like they've all got something to teach us that you and I are slowly PAC and our listeners are slowly packing into our Batman utility belts.

And, and it's, it's Peterson calling us out and saying, Hey, remember this, don't, don't fall into the trap of thinking that, you know, best, because remember we're still here on this planet to learn, to get better. And there is, I don't think I'll ever know enough [00:27:00] to, to confidently say it. I'm ready. I'm done.

Yeah. I mean, it reminds me of so many different mantras around this because there's like obviously servant leadership  as a sort of a rapid theme. If, if our listeners are super interested in that, bringing a level down  there's this  mantra of  listened to understand. Right. And that's really interesting, like, you know, to actively listen without bias, don't try and come up with a retort, but just listen, truly seek to understand what that person is saying.

It might be that they do have a good point. It might be that after consideration had only confirms  perhaps something that you felt or thought as well. But mark, I mean, this comes back to this. I mean the whole show is built around that idea of learning out loud. Right. And here he goes [00:28:00] and says, Learning learning, learning, be ready to learn.

I mean, it's almost like the indicator in life, you know, achieving, realizing your true potential is how much of your learning. I totally agree. So, mark, let me  let me ask you this question. I want you to take the last year and I want you to, I think about the last year in context to the many other years that came before that in your life, how much did you learn?

Did you have a high rate of learning? Do you feel like you discovered many new ideas, any new practices? I can confidently say that over the past year or 18 months, I've probably learned more about myself and how I need to learn. So I just want to break that down for a second. I learned more about myself.

I either way that I behave and [00:29:00] I've learned about the awareness that I have, that I should be learning more and how I can embrace change more than I ever have. Whoa. But do you realize what you said you've had the most fruitful, meaningful year of your life? Life? That that is, is what it feels like actually.

And, and you know, I'm not going to lie to you, Mike and listeners it's been a challenge, but hang on, hang on. That would only go to support this hypothesis of Peterson, correct? Correct. It, it has been a fruitful year of, of challenging  work with collaborations, with communication, family, friends, all sorts of potential country work.

Exactly. Yep. Bringing  bringing its own complications and throughout all of that. Gradually over the time that  and the, there, there, the, the speed bumps, the, the valleys of [00:30:00] darkness. I think that I've probably learned more again, as I say about myself, as well as the way that I behave to these, these challenges and obstacles more than I ever have done.

And, and I think that this humility that Peterson is talking about in, in rural nine is, is the bigger heart moment when you remove the pressure of your, on yourself to be perfect and to think, Hey, I'm, I'm great. I don't need to change. And when you have the humility to then say, oh, no, I could, I could still get better.

Hmm, that's the, for me, the penny drop moment, because then it removes that that unnecessary comparison and pressure that you have when you look at somebody who's, you know, famous or, or successful, and you're comparing yourself to them. When you give yourself the permission to say, Hey, I can still get better.

Yeah, I will. I mean, so, so let's just follow out the, the, the journey of Mark Pearson Freeland for the last year.  [00:31:00]I want you to ask a couple of questions. Did you then over the last 12 months achieve perfection? No. Ah, however, did you have the highest richest, most fruitful rate rate of learning in your life?

Yes. So therefore you've had the best year yet. I totally agree. Right? You are closer. To becoming who you're truly meant to be because of this. You have done the hard work you have gone to the valleys of darkness and out again. And are you able to say, well, I can be grateful for those challenges. Yeah. And, and, and actually just to go back to something you, the first question that you had about being perfect, I think what I've realized is that the terminology or the expectation [00:32:00] to become perfect even within a year would have been pretty unrealistic in, in, in my experience, you know, instead the, the journey of learning that, that took place, the, the reflection, the absorption, that humility and awareness.

Was was actually the more important piece for me that that's the meaningful journey that I think Peterson I was referring to in real satisfying. So if, if anything, actually, funnily enough, if I had achieved perfection, I would then find myself thinking, okay, well, that's kind of it. Then I reached over is that natural conclusion.

And if anything, I'm glad that it hasn't finished because it is a fun journey together. So what we just did then is used the capacity to embrace the rate of learning and the journey and the pursuit of meaningfulness. And we sort of allowed ourselves to wallow in [00:33:00] the goodness of that. And so you could feel.

The satisfaction and fulfillment. Actually, this was a great, the last time I was working great. Look at how far I've come, how much I've learned yet. We disassociated with this idea of perfection and all the falsehoods and you know, all the six pack abs and the like, but there's a certain knowingness that we can all achieve is if we did what was meaningful, right.

We might not have hit a home run, but when you know the intersection between your talents and the life that you live in, the ability to grow and learn more about yourself, but also in doing that, you have helped others. Then that is meaning right. As some might say that as your Dharma, that the intersection between your craft and who you are and how that intersects with the [00:34:00] rest of the world and helps others.

So it's a great  first half of the show, really, because what we've got to is not only meaning, but one of the key vehicles in doing that is the humility to learn, to listen, to grow into improve continuously. So it's the adage, like mix it up. When you go to the gym, do different exercises, different machines.

If you're going running, run different paces, different distances, different routes, all of those things is about being humble, open and curious to the world and just take all that goodness in and know that, Hey, don't worry about the expectations of others. Compare yourself to who you were yesterday, and you will be on the path to achieving, to realizing the very, very best version.

Of yourself, which is fantastic. I've only done half of the show and it's already, it feels like so satisfying. It feels like it was an entree [00:35:00] me. Oh, we still got dessert to come do me. Yeah, those, those rules seven, eight, nine are pretty essential on there. As, as, as Peterson calls out in that clip, we had, it's the core of the book.

It's the meaning it's truth. It's, it's listening and learning. That's pretty essential for us. So I can't wait to get into the last three, 12 rules for life, but it's been, it's been good so far. It has, hasn't it. And I hope that you, the moonshot as our listeners, I hope you're enjoying learning out loud and we've certainly been really grateful to all of the feedback and contributions we've been getting from all of you.

We've got a lot going on and it's just wonderful to hear from you. I think what's been particularly great is to welcome our listeners from China.  We  Somehow I've ended up 40th on the business and the entrepreneurial    top rankings  in China. So [00:36:00] we'd love to hear from you. So we welcome you to the show into our community.

And it's also great to see mark that  here from where we record in Australia, that we obviously have a lot of listeners.  And it's great to see us  zipping up the charts  on the  Australian podcast charts. And  so we welcome and embrace all our fellow Aussies who are enjoying a very nice winter  thus far.

 So  big, welcome to all of you, but we have a brand new thing mark, for all of these moonshot is  they can really actually become. Like a member of this community, we can step things up. They can not only listen, but they've got ways to, to really step up their membership of the moonshots podcast, Canada.

Yeah, we do. We've ex very, very, very excited to announce them for those who have listened to one of our [00:37:00] recent shows. We released a little trailer for what we're calling the shocks master series. And this is pretty exciting. Like this is brand new for you and I, and I'm excited to hear what our, what our listeners think, but once a month, at least once a month, we're going to release an exclusive paid for episode of the moonshots podcast.

That is in addition to our weekly shows that we put out for our listeners that really allows you and I to break down into some of those lessons there's there's frameworks and matrix of tools that we were just hearing from Peterson and alike. And Mike, I can't wait to, to really get into this idea. Well, yeah, are we're only a couple of weeks away before the first episode goes live, and if you'd like to sign up and  You know, really take things next level.

 You can go to moonshots dot AOE can become a member. So just click on the membership [00:38:00] button and you can  sign up. It's literally, I think for, for folks in the U S if you want to  become a member of moonshots, I think it's like less than a dollar a week or something like that for, for the U S guys somewhere around there.

 Now the first episode is going to be about motivation and we're going to take the two most wildly different people we could find, which is David Goggins and lady Gaga. They're just some of the people that we'll be showing.  But here's the interesting thing. The, the master series, we flip it on its head.

So in the moonshots podcast, we just go deep. Like we are in this show, we go deep into Jordan Peterson within the master series because we have such a huge body of work. Now, 129 shows we go and handpick the best thoughts from the best superstars around same motivation. So that would include Goggins and Gaga.

 Another good one is [00:39:00] that we're going to do is going to be leadership and there's a huge amount of work to do in leadership. In the first episode  in leadership will be around specifically team work. So once again, to give you an idea of the most wildly different people, we can get into one show.

It's going to be Patrick Lencioni, author of five dysfunctions of a team. And. Mr. Michael Jordan, and they have so much to teach us on Timo. Don't they? Matt? Yeah. The secret formula that I think we're, we're starting to find in each of these individuals, these superstars, the, we dig into each week when you can, you know  find that little line in the matrix and that connects somebody like Lensioni and Michael Jordan, it just proves to, to you and I, and to the listeners that there is something very consistent, no matter what sector you are, no matter what job you have, you can find these, this DNA of successful teamwork and leadership in a number of, [00:40:00] of, of individuals and, and much like Peterson was calling out to us in, in rule nine.

 Sorry.  Yeah, rural nine, listen to each other. Yes to others, it proves that doesn't it. And so we're gonna  dive across, wait for it. There's over 60 different episodes that pick on three big things, how to improve yourself, your thinking and your leadership. So if you want to get  this turbocharging  if you wanna get this accelerant to really being the best version of yourself, jump over to moonshots.io, click on members, sign up for that because in June we will be launching our first episode.

We would love to see you join us and remember that you will have the opportunity to get worksheets, all sorts of takeaways from each and every episode, you'll be able to suggest upcoming topics for the show. And we just encourage all of you to come in and support. We have, there's like a light [00:41:00]  membership you can take where, Hey, you just support us as well because.

Hey, we put this show together every single week for you guys for all of us to learn out loud together. So we'd appreciate your support. So head over to moonshots.io, click on members and give us some of your goodness and you'll get a lunar powered dose of good karma. Are you ready for the second half of Jordan Peterson?

Mark? I am Mike and let's launch straight into  rule 10. So just to revisit what we've heard on the show already, we've heard about meaning and truth and listening. So now let's hear from Jordan Peterson. Tell us a little bit about knowing what you want and communicating correctly to yourself and others.

Rule one is be precise in your speech and that's, that's an observation. I would say that's a variant of a new Testament injunction, which is, or maybe a [00:42:00] description of the nature of the world, which is. Knock and the door will open and ask and you will receive, which is a very strange theory let's say, but which I would say is far more in accordance with what we know about the psychology of perception.

Let's say than you might imagine, because it is the case that you don't get what you don't aim out. You might get what you do a map and your aim might get better as you aim as well, which is something to consider. If you specify the nature of the, actually, if you specify the nature of the being that you want to bring into being.

Then you radically increase the probability that that's what will occur. And of course you all know that because you regard yourself at least to some degree as active creative agents, right? Your fundamental attitude towards yourself, at least in the manner that you act towards yourself is that you wake up in the morning and you [00:43:00] have a landscape of possibilities that lay themselves open to you.

And you make choices between those possibilities and determine in consequence how the world is going to manifest itself. So you confront a field of potential. That's a good way of thinking about it. And through your choices, you determine which elements of that potential are going to concretize them selves into the real world.

Be precise. I mean, this is envisioning. I mean, I must been like ESP teleporting, a little bit of beta sin earlier in the show. Cause I talked about define who you want to be, write it down. Share it with others to make yourself accountable. So  yeah, the, the, the brainwashing by Jordan of myself is, has, is complete.

Right? Well, I, I think w what I, the comparison that I would draw, and again, upon reflection of, of Peterson's work in 12 rules for life, a lot of the rules that he's saying are both external and [00:44:00] internal amongst ourselves. Aren't they rule number eight, tell the truth, or at least don't lie to yourself is kind of what he's saying there.

He's saying, yes, don't go out and steal the cookie from the cookie jar, but actually don't allow your, your perceptions of yourself to be corrupted by telling forces. I think what he's saying here in rule 10, be precise in your speech. Similar to what you've just said, Mike, is, is be precise in how you are aware of yourself and not only how you and I might communicate to colleagues, partners, our listeners.

I think what he means is one layer deeper, which is people precise in the way that you have an internal monologue with yourself. Oh yeah. And I think we will. We  we all entertained some thinking about the vision that we have of ourselves kind of loosely and sporadically. I would say gotta get it here, journaling or whatever [00:45:00] the medium of your intention setting is and be very specific.

And I think the specificity helps you hone your focus on where you want to go. That's what I was saying earlier. I just want to be a good guy and you know, just a nice work and want to have, like, you hear a lot of people say, I want to have impact or what kind of bloody impact do you want to have, right.

Specifier. Very good  piece of advice, not only in the specificity, towards yourself, in your own mind, but also towards others. And I think  it's not to be underrated how you need to return to this and continue sharpening the ax, you know, to keep  ensuring that you're the best version of yourself.

But here's, what's interesting. Mark Jordan Peterson has got this thinking about how you should interface with others and let them be the best versions of themselves. And of all things. What he's about to propose to us is it starts [00:46:00] with thinking about skateboarding. Rule 11 is don't bother children when they're skateboarding.

And that's actually a discussion of courage of encouragement more specifically, because I've, I've been trying to understand, for example, what role parents play in the lives of their children. And I would say this is a role that is a fundamental importance, as well as attempting to guide your children so that they act in a socially desirable manner so that the world opens itself up to them.

You also want to encourage them, which is not the same as sheltering them. It's not the same at all. And to encourage someone is to say something like, or to act out something like, look, kid, the world is already difficult because the world isn't easy for children anymore than it's easy for adults that the difficulties are.

They're not the same, their child's size difficulties, but they're still difficulties. The world is a very hard place and it's a bitter place in many ways. [00:47:00] And it's not only a hard and bitter place. It's also touched with betrayal and malevolence, and that's the fundamental bottom line, but there's something in you that is capable of taking that full on and transcending it.

And that's encouragement. You say, well, as difficult as things are, you're up to the challenge and to interfere with children when they're skateboarding. For example, when they're doing. Let's say in advisably dangerous things, which kids of course do. If they're skateboarding to interfere with that is to interfere with the child's willingness to voluntarily expose themselves to the risks that they need to expose themselves to, in order to develop the sort of competence that allows them to thrive in a world, they cannot be sheltered from.

And so to interfere with children when they're taking necessary risks. [00:48:00] Is not love or empathy, but cowardice on the part of parents and it's deeply damaging to children. And I can tell you as a clinical psychologist, I've never had a client come to my office in all of the hundreds of encounters I've had with people in my office.

I've never had a client say, my parents made me too independent. That hasn't happened once right now, my parents made me too dependent, or I conspired with my parents to perpetuate my dependence that happened all the time. So there's a rule of thumb, which I think is a good one, which I believe is often applied in nursing homes, by people who work in nursing homes, which is of course a very difficult job.

And the rule is, do not do anything for anyone they can do for themselves. And the reason for that is that it's a form of theft. Oh, this is, this is a big meaty bit of life advice, right. [00:49:00] Than anything else. Isn't it. Because for me, Mike, the tendency is to try and  I'm going to make a comparison here to  work.

I might often have fallen into the trap of saying, oh, I'm not going to bother telling you how to do it. I'll do it myself. And I think the comparison to trying to protect others from, you know, perhaps learning that lesson, you are robbing them of that opportunity to, to guard and get that experience on you.

And I love the, the, the visual again, it's, Peterson's  talent here to put it in such a visual way for us, you know, stopping a child, doing a potentially dangerous activity, but. It's it's  pretty much  a business bit of advice as well. You learn by exposing to those things. Yeah. And I mean, the, the, the fascinating thing is that, [00:50:00] you know, we see this playing out in the world, they talk about helicopter parents.

Have you heard of this concept? I think I have. Right? So it's a, basically the parents, like helicopters hovering over the child and  catching them before they fall avoiding accidents. Or you see it even in teenagers where, you know, parents are doing the homework of the kids and stuff like this, right.

This is such a crime in, in the eyes of Peterson. He's saying what an act of cowardice and theft, because if you don't let them learn how to fall and dust themselves off and get back up again, then at some point in life, when you're not around, they will not have the means to embrace hardship. And I think this is exactly the same for parenting as it is for taking care of your colleagues, making sure that they are [00:51:00] capable of being autonomous of taking ownership that requires the skills and the confidence to be such.

So the question is how are you teaching, supporting others around you so that when they go skateboarding, oh, they might have a few knocks, but they'll be okay and they'll be better for, and that's why I think it's, it's like the, the micro manager in the office or the helicopter parent  at school or on the soccer field, they're all the same thing.

And I think it's rather challenging when he says, oh, you're not doing them a service. He goes way beyond that. He says, it's an act of theft. Wow. Yeah. It's, it's pretty  It's pretty confronting, but, but I think we can both agree that he's he's, I think he's right. Robbing them of that opportunity to go out and, and learn not only about the situation and life, but about themselves, how they react to stuff.

You know, [00:52:00] maybe the, the education that I was referring to earlier in the show for myself was that I've, I've followed a, you know, a slightly easier journey prior to the last 12, 18 months, actually being now into a situation where I'm falling off the skateboard. That's when I'm, that's what I'm learning, maybe it is.

That's for sure. But next time you'll see it coming. So you won't need to fall off and graze the knee. Will you? Yeah. Next time I'll Ollie over the, over the  the edge. Got it. Shows how little I know about skateboarding. At least he knew the Ali. I mean, you could have done like  you know, you could have made some, but you got, you, you got it.

You got it. You're doing good.  Well I think this is only the most appropriate moment for us to play.  A fantastic way to wrap up the show. It's the, the final rule from Jordan [00:53:00] Peterson. So sit back and enjoy this one. It's a bit longer than usual, but it is well worth the wait. So let's for the last time in this show, listen to Mr.

Jordan Peterson, final rule. It's called pet a cat when you encounter one on the street and it's, it's a very, it's the most personal chapter in the book. It's a lot about my daughter. And my daughter was very ill when she was well, when she was a kid. But particularly when she was a teenager, she had a very terrible time of it.

She had juvenile rheumatoid arthritis. And when she was between the ages of 14 and 16 at first destroyed her hip, which had to be replaced. And then it destroyed the ankle on her other leg, which had to be replaced. And she walked around for two years on broken legs and she was taking massive doses of opiates and could hardly stay awake.

And like, and she had this advanced auto immune disease, which produced all sorts of other symptoms that were just as bad as the joint degeneration, but which are harder to describe. And so it was just bloody [00:54:00] brutal, you know, and as a test of your faith, there's almost nothing that's more direct than a serious illness inflicted upon an innocent child.

Right. And so the chapter is a meditation on that and also on. Well, what to do in a situation like that, because everyone is going to have a situation like that in some sense, you know, because you'll be faced with illness in the people that you love and in crisis. And so it's a, it's a practical guide to coping with those sorts of things.

I can, one of the things you do when you're overwhelmed by crisis is you shorten your timeframe. You know, it's like, you can't think about next month. Maybe you can't even bloody well, think about next week or maybe not even tomorrow, you know, because now is just so overwhelming that that's all there is.

It's like, and that's what you do. You cut your timeframe back until you can cope with it. And if it's not the next week that you see how to get through, then it's the next day. And if it's not the next day, then it's the next hour. And if it's not the next hour, then it's the next minute. And you know, people are [00:55:00] very, very, very, very tough.

And it turns out that if you face things. It turns out that if you face things that you can put up with a lot more than you think you can put up with and you can do it without becoming corrupted. And she did recover quite, quite fully and much as a consequence of our own machinations, because she figured out what was wrong with her and then took the necessary steps to fix it, which is nothing short of a bloody miracle as far as I'm concerned.

And anyways, part of the, the, the cat bit is I actually started by talking about our dog who actually died about a year ago, but he's still alive in the book. I, you know, I let people know, cause dog lovers love dogs. And if you love cats, then they think you don't like dogs and then they don't like it. So I also pointed out at the beginning of the chapter that, you know, if you want to pet a dog on the street, that's okay too.

So you don't have to get up in arms about it. But the idea is that, you know, you have to be alert when you're [00:56:00] suffering. You have to be alert to the beauty in life. The unexpected beauty in life. And that's kind of what I was trying to get across with the idea of the cat. And there's this cat that lives across the street from us called ginger and ginger is a Siamese cat, and cats really aren't domesticated.

They technically speaking, they're still wild animals, but they kind of like people, God only knows why, but they do. You know, so ginger will come wandering over and our dog looks at her, but they're friends and she rolls over on his back and sequel used to nose her a bit. And, and then she kind of mosey over and let you pet her if she was feeling like it that day.

And you know, you have to look for those little bit of stuff, little bit of sparkling crystal in the darkness, when things are bad, you have to look and see where things are still beautiful and where there's still something that's sustaining. And, you know, you narrow your timeframe and you be grateful for what you have, and that can get you through some very dark times.

And maybe even successfully, if you're lucky, but even if [00:57:00] unsuccessfully that maybe it's only tragic and not absolute hell. And maybe I think, and this is sort of what I closed the book with is this idea is that if we didn't all attempt to make terrible things even worse than they are, then maybe we could tolerate the terrible things that we have to put up with an order to exist.

And maybe we could make the world into a better place, you know, and it's what we shouldn't be doing and what we could be doing, because we don't have anything better to do. And that's what the book is about. And. That's the end of 12 rules for life. Find gratitude and motors, the beauty in life, because the journey is going to be hard and don't make it harder on yourself by not looking around and, and petting the cat, smelling the flowers.

Yeah. It's it was like, he was just, he'd just been hanging out with Eckhart toll and yes. Talking about being in the moment, the power of now, you know, when in doubt you do have the now wasn't that something [00:58:00] powerful from the total show. Yep. Focus on the power of now. That's the only thing that matters. It doesn't matter where you were yesterday in the past or where you're going to be in a minute or, or an hour's time just focused on right here right now.

Mark. I mean, what  w I mean, I'm glad we broke up Jordan. Peterson's 12 rules for life into two shows. I don't think my brain could have coped with a one show extreme. Well, he, he covers so much, he covers, you know, particularly, even in today, we've learned about that. I do have truth to ourselves, as well as others.

Meaning perception, courage, goodness.  In the first six, you know, we learn about standing tool taking responsibility. I mean, what a, what a journey we've gone on with Peterson. Yeah. I feel like I might be cheating a little bit, but I, but I have been saying regularly of late, you know, this, one's probably a book you could come back to once a year, but I have a feeling that I'm building up a catalog of dozens of books I have to read at [00:59:00] the beginning of every year.

 It, it really is.  I think  What I, what I really walk away from here as he's giving us the capacity to one admit  who we are and who we want to be into to give us the capacity to go out and do meaningful work, knowing that that is fraught with hardship. Wouldn't you say it? I think that's it.

It's having awareness that life can be pretty rough. So don't make it any harder for yourself by cultivating that negative Headspace negative environment, almost alike.  We're all a bit. Yeah. I attempted to play the role of the victim and he's got to come and slapped us on the face and said, none of that.

Here's how you, how you go about a correct. That that's the big thing that I took, particularly actually he wraps it up for us perfectly in that, in that final clip, we just heard because he's, he's calling out, you know, through the, the [01:00:00] illness of his daughter and the struggles that they went through as a family, he's saying.

Life can be tough. So don't distract yourself with expectations or wrong perceptions or challenges by tripping yourself up. You're your own worst enemy. If you're going to do it like that, instead, take a step back. Change your perception, own your reaction to things it's been, there's been big. It has, it has.

And mark, if you thought we were done with Mr. Peterson, we're not, are we well, I'm pretty excited, Mike, because you and I get to go back into Jordan Peterson next week as show 130 by beginning. Jordan's next book. That was a follow-up to 12 rules for life beyond order 12 more rules a life. Oh, I'm going to be exhausted after this series is.

Yeah, I think we're going to have, we're going to have a lot of good rules and I hope there's going to be a lot of, of elements that you [01:01:00] and I can can build on as we continue dementia journey. Yeah, I totally agree. All right, Mark Pearson, Freeland. Thank you to you. Thank you for everything you shared on this show.

It was such a, such a joy. It's such a challenge as well to get into all these different rules, but I think we're all better for it. And thank you to you. Our listeners, our moonshot is those are the people, people who are trying to be the best version of themselves and how are we getting there? We're learning out loud together.

That's right. That's what we're doing. And today, boy, did we do some learning show, 129 with Jordan Peterson, 12 rules for life. We took the second half of his book as it was just so damn action packed. And yes, we found an antidote to the chaos and that began with doing what is meaningful and not what is expedient.

So Jordan told us. Embrace the discomfort. [01:02:00] That was the starting point. And then he led us on a journey where it was really about telling the truth, or at least don't lie. Keep your mind clear, stay on track. That's for sure. Well, the underlying thoughts that we enjoyed today, but we also learnt a lot about humility.

He told us in his rule nine, assume the person you are listening to might know something you don't wise words indeed. And he continues on that path to tell us to be precise in our speech. Not only on the outside. But on the inside too. And when children are skateboarding, don't bother them, empower them and we can apply that to all parts of our life.

And the last day he told us, when you see a cat, when you encounter them on the street, give them a path, which was a beautiful anecdote to tell us, to be mindful, to tell us, to be in the moment, to find the unexpected beauty that is around us to embrace the power of now. [01:03:00] So I invite all of you. Moonshot is to consider these roles to reflect on these rules and to embody them.

And if you do so, you'll be the very best version of yourself. All right. That's it for the moonshots podcast.