adam grant: think again

episode 125

SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Hello and welcome to the moonshots podcast. It's episode 125. I your cohost Mike Parsons and I am joined by the man who is our resident thinker. Yes. Mr. Mark Pearson Freeland. Good morning. Hey, good morning, Mike. The power of knowing is happening today. How's your morning looking so far. It's a great morning.

When you get the chance to try and digest another great book from one of our total, I'm going top five moonshot authors, Mark, who are we going to listen to today? He's not only one of our top five moonshot authors, Mike. He was actually, as you might remember, And I'll listen to them. I remember one of my favorite people that we've done on this show.

It's Mr. [00:01:00] Adam Grant and his new series, or sorry, his new book. Think again, the power of knowing what you don't know. And this is a, it's a pretty popular book, actually. It is. And, um, kind of what you would expect from Adam Grant after he did originals give and take option B, he is quiet the powerhouse and he has brought us another.

Not a big stonking book, but it wasn't us that came up with this idea. Was it Mark? Uh, it look what's fantastic is we're starting to definitely get some great recommendations, Mike, from our listeners and today's episode is inspired, recommended, and actually dedicated to Mr. Rodrigo who got in touch with us and requested that we dig into Adam Grant's new book.

So Rodrigo, thank you very much for giving us this recommendation. We have thoroughly enjoyed getting into it and we hope you enjoy listening to us. Learning out loud from Mr. Adam Grant. Yeah. Whereabouts is Rodrigo [00:02:00] from like w what part of the world is he doing his moonshot in. Well, my friend Rodrigo, in fact, as we've, we've spoken a couple of times via email and so on is in, uh, a Munich, but originally from Mexico, uh, another, another, uh, man of the world, mind a world traveler.

And we're got a huge show in front of us today. We are going to travel the world of thinking again. And so, you know, the funny thing is thinking and the art of thinking is kind of underrated. And I think a lot of people consider thinking as like a God-given gift, you either can, or you can't. But I think what Adam Grant is going to teach us today is that is totally not the case.

So I think we're about to rewire some of our mind. Aren't we? Uh, Mr. Mark. Yeah. I think the concept of think again is, is that rewiring? Isn't it? And what a perfect, I [00:03:00] think segue as well as a connection from that previous series, Mike, and the time this classics and that final episode that we did last week, show one to four with Carol Dweck and her book mindset.

This first introduction clip that we're going to hear from Adam Grant himself is actually telling us again, building on that concept of the growth mindset, why he wrote this book. Think again, the power of knowing what you don't know and asks us to really look for and take advantage of opportunities that you and I can do day to day to learn and practice.

In the winter of 2018, I went to a bunch of the most powerful CEOs in Silicon Valley, and I said, Hey, I'd love to run a remote work Friday experiment where you just let people work from anywhere one day a week, and we can test the effects on productivity and creativity. And they all said, no, thank you. We don't want to open Pandora's box.

We're afraid people are going to procrastinate all the time that they'll never come back to the office and that our culture is going to fall apart. [00:04:00] Fast forward three years, at least three of those CEOs have now announced that their workforce might be permanently remote. And to me, that was such a missed opportunity for rethinking, right.

That they could have had all of 2018 and 2019 to practice working remotely and figure out how to make it work. And now I wonder actually, if they've over-corrected, I've met that many of these firms should actually be looking at hybrid models, as opposed to saying we're completely remote or we're completely in the office.

I was struck by what a struggle it was for a lot of these CEOs to rethink their basic assumptions about whether we could get things done and collaborate effectively if we weren't in the same room. And I think that it makes sense to stick to your convictions if the world holds still, but in a rapidly changing world, we need to be as good at rethinking our opinions and our knowledge as we are at thinking in the first place.

Wow. The rethinking assumptions, I love what he did to stand is he said, look, because the world is constantly [00:05:00] changing. You cannot hold assumptions as being fixed, but they must grow. They must change and evolve. And I think that's almost like the very first thing you need to wrap your head around us. We take in this book by Adam Grant.

Think again, is that we it's almost, we have to think again because the world is constantly changing. And I would say the timeliness of this book given 2020. Means that things changed a whole lot. And so we must go back to our first principles and go, what do we believe that to be true, foundational thoughts, and to challenge ourselves, to get into some of those assumptions, maybe even wait for it, Mark our bias, right.

And really dig into that stuff. And I think that's the invitation, not only of this book, but the next hour together, we're going to challenge ourselves. We're going to think about where we might've held [00:06:00] on to some old thinking. And in the second half of the show, we're going to show you how to embrace new thinking and what it really takes to kind of open up the potential that we all have.

Remember your, your thinking ability is not fixed. It is not given to you at birth. It is something you can work on. And I think for all of our listeners, I think it's such a great opportunity if you. Really open yourself up to the idea that you can actually improve your thinking, your decision, making your problem solving by just merely challenging your assumptions and having the right mental models.

I mean, wow, what a show, but Mark, what a series, right? Yeah. Wow. I mean, not only are we on the back Carol Dweck's mindset book, but following that timeless classic series, Mike, where we really got into the, I guess, the DNA of how we all think wasn't it, it was really turning the mirror towards ourselves and talking [00:07:00] about how habits are evolved, how we can take pragmatic and practical steps to be perhaps better or calmer individuals in our day-to-day lives.

This series that we're now going into our thinking better series beginning with Rodrigo's recommendation of that in grant. Think again, really gives us this opportunity to go out and put it into practice. We want to, as you've just said, build on this, uh, ability to not be stuck to our convictions it's to put into practice.

Well, how might we. Notice those opportunities to go out on learn. How might we challenge the assumptions that we might have from school birth and so on now that we know how to perhaps think better by turning a look towards ourselves might now let's go out and produce. In the real world, we've got a pretty exciting series.

Yeah, it really is. And some really challenging new ground for us. We're going to include Matthew McConaughey. [00:08:00] Uh, Dan Millman, you wrote that the way of the peaceful warrior as this, uh, really, really expensive thinking better series. And I think we should all be like, I dunno, I've got my lemon and ginger tea, whatever it takes to loosen up and become curious and open to what the world has to offer to potentially think about it.

Because if we can think better, we can be better. We can really achieve, I think the very best version of ourselves. And we are going to launch into the first big foundational idea of the book. And that is that we get stuck in a over confidence cycle. This is. All about the idea that we're holding on to outdated ideas and, and almost blocking out even the potential to refine, to challenge, to improve those assumptions as baselines, if you will.

So what we're going to do is we're going to go through a rip-roaring set of clips, um, that really point out how Adam [00:09:00] Grant frames, what we do wrong right now. And this is the part of the show where you get to nod along and go, Oh yeah, maybe I do that. Or maybe. You see your colleagues or your friends doing it.

And this will be a great opportunity for you to better understand, um, out, you know, nature, to defend our existing thinking and to be resistant to change. This will be a great opportunity to see what that is, understand that better. And then the second half of the show, we're going to be all about how to reinvent your thinking, how to be curious.

And it's going to take a whole lot of courage too. I'm going to show you how to do that as well, but let's kick it off by thinking about this whole idea of let's come into the present. Let's acknowledge what we do, how we maybe get our thinking wrong. Let's start with a thought from the book. Think again by immigrants.

And it's all about upgrading your opinion. When was the [00:10:00] last time you changed your mind? Many people see virtue in sticking to their beliefs and holding on to strong opinions. But the more willing you are to change your mind after careful reasoning and not peer pressure, the more likely you are to rise to the top of any field forecasters who change their mind twice as much as other forecasters, prior to a final prediction on an election, the sporting event, or where the stock market will be a year from now, produce significantly more accurate forecasts called students who have more eraser marks on their exams and reconsider their answers before handing in an exam routinely score higher than students who don't rethink their first answer and us presidents who are ranked highest among historians are those who displayed intellectual curiosity and openness, and were most likely to adjust their policies based on new information.

George Bernard Shaw famously said those who cannot change their mind cannot change anything. Think of changing your mind, like upgrading your smartphone. You don't want to be the [00:11:00] person walking around with a ten-year-old smartphone. It's slow prone to crashing. It makes it difficult to communicate with others.

Many of us failed upgrade our opinions and way of thinking, because we get stuck in an overconfidence cycle, we form an opinion that feels right. We like feeling right. So we seek information to support that opinion while discounting and dismissing information that doesn't support our opinion. As a result, we feel validated for holding that opinion, which gives way to more pride and starts the cycle over again.

When you allow an overconfidence cycle to continue you stop learning and stop listening to anyone that doesn't support your opinion feeling right, is more important than being right, but even brilliant minds get stuck in an over-confidence cycle. Einstein refuse to support the emerging field of quantum mechanics, despite the overwhelming evidence that supported it, what trapped Einstein and what traps other great minds in overconfidence cycle are three modes.

We all enter from time to time [00:12:00] preaching, prosecuting, and politicking. As long as we are stuck at any of these three modes feeling right. Becomes more important than being right. And we stop learning what a great little introduction clip before we dig into Mike we're preaching, prosecuting and politicking are and how we can identify them in our behaviors.

What a great little introduction clip there from productivity game, breaking down this overconfidence cycle. And I think I'm speaking for, um, probably a few viruses, Mike, perhaps, uh, certainly for myself, I. Probably do find that, that sense of relief when I believe that I might be correct. You know, it's a little bit, I'll be honest.

It's a little bit hard sometimes to accept that somebody else is correct, isn't it it's sometimes it takes a little bit of confidence or maybe even courage to say, you know what I hear you, you are right. And I think it is quite natural to perhaps fall into [00:13:00] a behavior of. Yep. I know best or I've, I've got the experience.

I've got the, um, the, almost the expectation that I'm going to be correct. And Mike, I'd like to see what you think of this for me, this reminds me of that big, old word that we've heard a few times ego. It feels like ego comes in here. Right? Uh, I know, but you know, the, the funny thing is like, we can't distinguish the difference between ourselves and our opinions and ideas.

So if someone challenges our idea, we immediately take that on as they're challenging us. Um, and I think, you know, I think about great moments. When I've been part of a team where we've been, when there's been enough safety, that people don't take challenge to an idea as anything personal that I have distinct memories of really great breakthroughs happening about solving problems, making decisions [00:14:00] when we've been able to detach a little bit.

But I think we all too often become very stubborn. Uh, and very protective of our ideas because we think a challenge to our ideas to challenge to ourselves. And it's like the whole thing of don't take things. So personally it's just ideas and the more the merrier, the more that they are challenged and they go through the washing machine a few times they'll come out cleaner, I'll come out better ideas, but we so often hang on to them.

Don't we it's just like when someone takes down your idea, you're like, you can physically feel the crumbling inside, like, Oh my ideas. Yeah. I think it's what, what is being caught out in that kind of introduction to overconfidence clip? Is it also this, this validation that comes with holding that opinion or holding that point of view, which I think is quite interesting once you.

You know, not only can get past the validation that [00:15:00] comes with, Hey, don't challenge me. This is my way of thinking, but actually you remember? Oh yeah. Well maybe I'm just feeling validated for having a point of view, regardless. I think, I think that was quite an interesting level now. Yeah. And fascinating to that forecast is that changed their forecast more frequently, ended up being more accurate because they continuously refining and adjusting their point of view.

How strong is it? Well, again, I'm sure we'll talk about this a few times on the show today, Mike, but this is pretty essential to trying to learn and build a product through the use of testing. Isn't it? It is this refinement that comes with you and I talking to customers, it's kind of similar to your mindset here by working with others, accepting their points of view.

As you just said, it goes through the wash and it comes out cleaner, stronger or [00:16:00] more informed. But Mark, you have to be careful because look, you're already naturally solving the problem for us, but we've got more problem to identify because, you know, we talked about politicking and prosecuting. These are all the bad habits, but I got another one for you.

What are we going to listen to now is another idea from Adam Grant's book. Think again, and this is something that we might all identify in ourselves or others around us, and we're not at the Sunday church, but it is indeed called per reaching overconfidence mode. Number one, preaching when trying to convince someone to adopt your belief, you'll probably pretend to be a hundred percent certain in your belief to be more persuasive.

The more you preach that belief, the more certainty you develop and think that your belief is Bulletproof. The more that someone preaches about a single type of investment like Bitcoin, the more likely they are to dismiss concerning data that could jeopardize Bitcoin and lead to a catastrophic loss.

[00:17:00] The more time someone preaches about a political candidate, the more likely they are to dismiss actions, he or she is taking that. They would probably condemn if they had not been preaching the strengths of that candidate to others. So let's break this down a little bit, Mike, because for me, when I read and learn about this concept of preaching, and like you say, we'll get into a proaction later in the show.

A demonstration from my experience with regards to preaching is probably what I'm trying to perhaps sell a solution to a partner or a teammate maybe, you know, maybe I've gone away and done a lot of homework. And I come to you and say, Hey, look, Mike, I think that this is the answer to our problem. This is the solution.

And I will put in a lot of effort to try and convince you around and in doing so. I'm kind of closing myself off because no longer will my brain take on board any of that feedback, because it feels so certain that I'm correct. Is that how you're [00:18:00] interpreting the preaching concept? Uh, look, mine is, uh, is, is, is even a bit more nuanced than that.

I think what we do is it's like, it's like a chant where like the solution to the, to the problem is this the solution to the problem, is this the solution? And then before, you know, like you have, you have, you know, you're drunk on your own idea. You've said it so many times. There's no possible way you could entertain there being any other things like this.

So this preaching, um, gets you in this trance where you think there's only one approach, but also creates all this social capital that you've been saying is for so long, you can't afford to change. Um, you've been preaching to yourself, such an advocate. You've kind of brainwashed yourself, but also in one moment of clarity, you're like, Ooh, maybe it's this, but you're like, Oh, I can't afford to go down that path because you've been preaching.

You've been out there telling everyone it's, we've got to go left, we've got to go left. And you're like, left is the only way [00:19:00] left. Isn't the only way. And then a little bit of data comes your way in which says, uh, you know what, maybe it's right. You're like, I can't think that we've got to go left. We've got to go left.

You know, I think this is what happens with preaching. It's like you get in the trends, but also the social capital of pivoting is so big. Like, Oh guys, I know I've been saying this for like a month, but I actually think we should go right now. And this is where, you know, you get into these really, um, you know, you think about bad decisions that get made.

Like you watch history, documentaries, and like what's the theme. You know, someone goes in to another country. In battle, they win and then they don't have it. Any plan for what happens after they win. And then the whole place falls apart. I just check out the middle East for like 1,000 examples of that. Um, like people like this bridge, we've got to go to war, we've got to go to war.

They go to one, then they go, Oh, but no, one's thought about what happens once it's over. Right. It's really interesting how this, this trans that we all get [00:20:00] into, uh, about solutions, new ways of working. So we've got to make the decision. We've all got to go left. I just don't think you, you get into a state where you can't afford to even entertain going right.

I think the reason, uh, exactly, as you say is you don't want to confess, is it, you know, I think what Ann Grant's saying is the overconfidence that, that comes well, one of the results of being overconfident is them being afraid to say that you're wrong. It hasn't it. Yeah. How could it be? I mean, you reject it so fundamentally don't you, but you know, the funny thing is like, we've been talking about preaching, but we're still got more bad habits to recognize Mack.

So let's, let's keep the bad habits flowing. What's the next one. So the next one was, uh, being caught out in Adam Grant's thing again is the concept of prosecuting and this idea let's dig into and hear a little bit about, uh, what prosecuting is you ready about? Overconfidence mode? Number two, prosecuting.

When we think [00:21:00] someone's belief is wrong, we get busy building up a case against them and stop considering any valid points they have to say. If someone is busy bashing Bitcoin and looking for reasons why Bitcoin is a bad investment, just to score points in a Twitter battle, they'll ignore or discount good arguments for why Bitcoin is a good investment and might miss a great opportunity to diversify their portfolio and protect their savings.

Uh, you know, the thing that this reminds me of Mark is when someone disagrees with you. Because you've been preaching, right? Let's follow this in Adam Grant or that you've been preaching so much. I, we, you know, let's take the example in the clips, Bitcoin, Bitcoin, Bitcoin. Um, then when someone says, Oh no, no, no, Ethereum, Ethereum, Ethereum.

You're like, no. And what we do, and this is a classic defensive mechanism instead of just like rejecting the idea alone, we start to reject the person [00:22:00] itself. So if you think in an information war, if somebody is putting out information and a counter party, doesn't like that information, what do they do?

It's the same. You shoot the messenger. Right? So here, what we're talking about is prosecuting is you not only prosecute the idea in order to like, make yourself feel safe because you're in fight or flight because you've been preaching. So this new idea that is different to yours, it's, it's like a threat.

So what you do is you not only reject the idea, you reject the person themselves. So by being closed minded, not only are you going to miss out on the opportunity of perhaps does diversifying your portfolio as that example puts, but also, uh, learning from that other individual. Yeah, because you reject both the idea and the messenger.

It's the message. And the messenger, essentially, because you've been, you know, as we said, your ego, it was running, right. If you think you've got the idea and then, you know, who's this person coming over here saying, it's, it's big. I know. No, no, no, no. I'm, I'm a [00:23:00] theory, man. Like what, however you want to play this.

The interesting thing is that it's all like in this world of guessing and assumption and bias, and you're spending all of this energy defending it, right. That's the craziest thing. Like it, you know, the best investment opportunity could be staring you in the face, but you're spending so much energy rejecting it on surface value.

Isn't that? Isn't that fascinating? Doesn't it? Have you seen that yourself? Like, can you go back to times in your career where good ideas have been put on the table, but people haven't had the capacity. To embrace them, brace it. Maybe they've been preaching or maybe they're just stuck in prosecuting as Adam Grant would say in his book, the power of knowing what you don't know.

Right. How, how do you see this play out in, in, in the work space? Like people just prosecuting like crazy. I think what happens when teams might have [00:24:00] this particular scenario is it becomes divided. You know, you might have let's, let's try and use a, another example from, um, situation that I've seen in the past, where you have different creative teams trying to come up with a common goal.

Perhaps you're working with a particular, uh, business or brand or partner, and you're all trying to come to the conclusion of let's create something that's great for customers. Let's try and create something that's great for the world. But what happens is there's almost, I wonder whether this is a connection with the overconfidence cycle, um, a competitiveness.

So I might be preaching and saying, no, this is my idea. This is what I think it is. And prosecuting by being close minded to the opinions of others. And what happens is people are then drawn apart. Yes, they splinter don't they, because there's no common, um, destination anymore. Instead that journey has become very, uh, littered with different opinions and, and accusations, shooting the [00:25:00] messengers and so on.

And what happens is the teams through overconfidence begin to fall apart? Yeah, because I think if you're in prosecutor mode, then, uh, you see entertaining the other option as a defeat and that's really triggering the ego. Right. So you're like heaven forbid I don't want to have my ID defeated. Um, so I will reject this.

The interesting thing that we're going to get to in the second half of the show is like, it's actually, the inverse is classic Carol Dweck growth mindset versus fixed mindset. Instead of being fixed about it, you can be like, Oh wow. If this idea from somebody else is in fact, right. Even though it's different to mine, we are a step closer to a solution, answer success, whatever you're on the path towards, it's just this shift.

And isn't it amazing Mark that we can all be super smart [00:26:00] and see everything happening in the world. But unless we're capable of being disciplined in how we respond to the world, listening, pausing thinking, it's not about ego, it should just be in the obsession towards the right answer, the right solution, whatever it is, it's crazy how our egos are just like running a Mark and making such a mess in our lives.

Aren't they. It's funny how regularly this concept of ego, um, comes up in, in, in the show. Mike does on the back of the timeless classic series, ego was one of the main blockers that, you know, uh, Dale Covey, um, tall, as well as Carol world driving us towards. And I think this concept of, uh, embracing the ability, your own ability to kind of take ownership.

Yeah. That's kind of interesting, but let's, let's talk about one more before we really get into Mike, that solution that we keep on teasing our listeners with there's one more, [00:27:00] um, mindset or behavior that I think falls into this overconfidence cycle. And this third one that we're going to hear about from Adam Grant's book is politicking overconfidence mode.

Number three, politicking politicking is the act of adopting other people's views because we want to be liked by them and accepted by them. In my first job out of college, I wanted to be liked and accepted by my boss. So I started talking like my boss and support the positions that he supported gradually.

I found myself taking on beliefs and opinions that he held without fully vetting them. Adam Grant says when we become so wrapped up in preaching that we're right, prosecuting others who are wrong and politicking for support, we don't bother to rethink our own views. And we get trapped in an overconfidence cycle.

It is such a cycle. And you can see, you know, you could just imagine if you look at the bad decisions in business [00:28:00] that have happened in the world, you know, blockbuster, not buying Netflix and so on and so forth. Could you imagine. How this overconfidence cycle must have been running rampant in the company.

If they couldn't see the internet coming, they could, you know, they could have bought blockbuster, could have bought Netflix for some really tiny amount. I think it was like, you know, less than $50 million or something at the time. Isn't it crazy that when you actually break down these modes as Adam Grant has in his book, think again, it's, you can really identify these behaviors.

You've seen them in, in past experience. And I think we should all admit, we've probably been guilty of doing this once or twice ourselves. Uh, I mean, being, you know, drawn into any of those three behaviors or modes as they're called, you know, preaching, prosecuting or politician, they are. So I think easy to do, uh, perhaps because we.

I have kind of grown [00:29:00] into the mic. So through the self-preservation peace, you know, I, I'm going to try and be, um, very good at the particular job I've got. So how do I do that? Well, I need to ally myself with the right people, or I'm going to try and protect my creative integrity or try to protect my own, you know, a particular point of view.

It's very, I think, easy to fall into that. And what I think is really interesting about today's show is trying to, to rewire it so that we don't fall into those patterns because as. Is that immigrants really stating here they can be pretty dangerous. They can be pretty close. Yeah. Yeah. And with the benefit of hindsight in history, how many times do you watch documentaries and you see critical decisions being made that, you know, go on to lead, to like absolute pain and destruction.

And you're like, Oh my gosh, why did you do that? You know? Um, it's, it's so fascinating. I mean, you think about, again, I've been watching [00:30:00] lots of history documentary, so apologies for all these history references, but you know, Napoleon, he marched oil on Russia, failed, lost the war and everything kind of fell apart after that.

And then Hitler went and did the same thing a couple hundred years later. And it's just like what was running rampant in their overconfidence cycle there, you know, it's amazing. How these behaviors really lead us so far away from the right answer from the solution. So it's so great that the Adam Grant has gone and said, look, watch out for preacher mode, prosecutor mode and politician mode, because this is the destruction of clear thinking.

It's the path to bad decisions it's getting to the wrong solutions. Isn't a Mark. Yeah. Getting to the wrong solutions and repeating history. I like, I like these references might be because they are, they they're, they're building on this idea, you know, and again, we were talking about this before the show with Einstein, insanity is doing [00:31:00] the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

If there is no opportunity for us to challenge ourselves, to try and think again and break out of the, um, the repetition mode of, of, of rinse and repeat and getting the same results. How are we ever going to, to, to grow and learn and do something? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it was, um, um, Um, think about Blackberry, not having the app store, not having the, uh, screen, uh, keyboard.

Um, there's just like a litany of bad decisions we talked about in the previous episode, the, um, Decca records rejected the Beatles. Right? I think about all of these, I mentioned block, uh, blockbuster. Think about Kodak management rejecting the digital camera because they thought they were in the film business.

Right. That's right. That's right. There've been so many as we look back, they almost seem [00:32:00] pretty, uh, fundamental don't they? And you know, maybe it's hindsight, maybe it's, you know, knowledge of the future now, but it's so interesting to see that a closed or fixed mindset at one point. Was so pivotal to all of those brands.

And if they only had that, I think confidence that Adam Grant's really inspiring us to try and follow. Wow. Where could they be now? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think what we have, uh, tried to do for the first half of the show is make a case for like being aware, drawing everyone everyone's attention. You know, all our listeners really want you to understand that humans are unique in the fact they have cognitive function, right.

They can think, right. But here's the problem. Like our thinking can run us Australia. We, we learned that in the classic series, our thinking can overwhelm ourselves. We are different from our thoughts. You've got to take control of them. And you've got to know that, you know, if you're on a mission to go and do something [00:33:00] special, something going to have some impact.

If you're daring to do something different, you're going to have all these important decisions to make. And it is human nature not to get them right. Motorola. Chose not to do smartphones thought the flip phone, was it? I mean, come on Andy. You know, obviously Google could have been purchased. I think it was really low by excited.

I think it was like a million dollars or something like this. Um, Yahoo turned down a Microsoft and Yahoo is like peanuts. Um, we have the nature, if not disciplined in how we think, if we're not working on our thinking muscle on our brain and sending it to the gym, it's going to get fat and flabby and it's going to perform poorly.

We're going to fall into this overconfidence cycle. Mark, have we made the case for this terrible, you know, Valley of darkness of overconfidence, thinking [00:34:00] of being in this cycle where you're preaching, prosecuting and politicking. I really hope so. And I hope we're not getting into that preaching side, Mike, I think maybe, hopefully we're not getting into an overconfidence cycle of saying, Hey, this is correct.

We believe in this overconfidence cycle that Adam Grant's cooling out. Good call. I really do believe that that it's, uh, it's definitely it's the fact. Yeah, it is. I mean, it happens every in, in meeting rooms at the coffee machine. Okay. So now we've made the, made the case for the overconfidence cycle. In a moment B you can be relieved of all of your pain and anguish because we will get into the rethinking cycle, which is the real magic of what Adam Grant has discovered in his book.

Think again, but before we get to that, we've got all sorts of shout outs for our listeners, Mark. Um, where should we start in, in, uh, heaping praise and Goodwill to all of our moonshot is around the world. I think it's [00:35:00] only right, that we start with patina patina in Germany, who actually was our recommender and request it for the previous show.

Number one to four, with Carol Dweck and mindset who intern has inspired and driven a lot of the conversation that we've had in today's show Mike. So patina, thank you very much for your particular requests. We loved it and we hope you did too. And we also got a great recommendation from iMac in the U S um, they, uh, suggested we can Joseph Campbell, and that will take us on the hero's journey.

Oh my gosh, Mark Daniel is one big piece of work for those of you not familiar with his work. If you've seen the star Wars trilogy, that's basically the narrative by which, uh, Joseph Campbell discovered in the hero's journey. It's kind of the path for those who are trying to be the best version of themselves.

He created this kind of universal, uh, storyline of how that plays out in life. And it's very. Very interesting stuff. [00:36:00] So we'll be sure to cover that in an upcoming show. So thank you to iMac over there and a big thank you to all our listeners in Austria. Uh, they are turbo-charged, uh, the mindset growth is happening for them.

I want to thank, uh, all of our Austrian listeners because we have rocketed up the charts, um, over there in Austria. So thank you. I hope you're enjoying the spring. I hope, uh, lots of good fortunes coming to you over there in the heart of Europe and Mark. Now that we've done a big shout out to our listeners, I feel that it is only appropriate that we get into some of the goodness of.

Adam Grant. I think we got to get into how we do think, how do we think better? How do we overcome the overconfidence cycle? So Mark lead the way, where do we go next? Well, the first thing that we've got to, um, understand is where that destination will take us. So first of all, we've now covered and reiterated this concept of the dangers of [00:37:00] falling into an overconfidence cycle.

But good news listeners is that there is a journey and a destination to get into a better way of thinking. And that's called in Adam Grant's world, the rethinking cycle. So there's next clip we're going to hear about is how we can start to get out of that overconfidence cycle by thinking like a scientist, to get ourselves out of an overconfidence cycle.

We need to think like a scientist. When Adam Grant asks world renowned scientist, Daniel, Conaman how he reacts. When people find flaws in his research, Denny's eyes lit up and he said, it's wonderful. I get a chance to be less wrong, great scientists, like Conaman see ideas and beliefs as hunches and hypothesis that need to be tested when they encountered data that cast doubt on their hypothesis, they get an opportunity to discover new ideas and better understand reality.

When you think like a scientist, your opinions and beliefs are starting points that you expect to revise based on incoming [00:38:00] data grant says in preacher mode, changing your mind is a Mark of moral weakness, but in scientist mode, it's a sign of intellectual integrity in prosecutor mode, allowing ourselves to be persuaded is admitting defeat in scientist mode.

It's a step toward the truth in politician mode. We flip-flop in response to carrots and sticks in scientist mode. We shift in the face of sharper logic and stronger data. Scientists mode. Oh my goodness. Me, this is been one of the truly biggest aha for myself in my work for my practice is, you know, I grew up like guessing solutions and product ideas.

I certainly did that in 1997 when they launched an internet radio station about 15 years too early. But the interesting thing here, Mark is if we can just put [00:39:00] our ego aside for a moment, every. Bit of feedback or challenge that you get for your idea only helps it get better. It's so Zahara did, she's like challenges.

Great. Just makes me better. It's so growth mindset taking on adversity, getting comfortable with discomfort. It's it's all about it's helping you get to a better answer. And I love, I love what Canon says. Who's one of really a fantastic author. Um, and he says, Oh, well, you know, it's a chance for me to be less wrong.

And what I love about that statement is it's a chance to not only improve, but he's just saying rather than to be more right and better than everyone, he's just saying, ah, this is a chance for me to be less wrong. So I like both this continuous improvement theme, but what's kind of nice about that. Quote was it's super humble and he's, he's very detached from the idea of being a reflection of himself.

Isn't he. [00:40:00] Yeah. Yeah, you're right. It is. He's detaching himself from the Nobel prize winning. Remember he, he's pretty substantial in that economics and an author authorship space, but the fact that he's able to in his own words, have that open mind and accept that feedback and the chance to be proved wrong, I think is pretty inspiring.

Mike, isn't it. And this concept of thinking like a scientist, how, how do you, um, challenge yourself or ensure that you are regularly? Um, I suppose accepting. Feedback from others and the chance to, to improve your, your, your thinking as well as your behaviors. I'm, I'm fascinated to hear how you apply it.

Well, I think what I've learned is I used to guess a lot, as I was saying earlier, and now I want to send up a trial balloon and, um, I'm very conscious of sharing ideas. I think that would be, if you want [00:41:00] to think like a scientist, stop by, like, don't hold onto your ideas. You know, those people who say, Hey, I've got a business idea.

I want to tell you about it and get all your feedback, but you have to sign an NDA first. And you're like, Oh my gosh, what decade are we in right now? Like share your ideas. The more you share, the more you're going to get feedback. And then I would always take a breath and not respond. With your gut reaction.

Cause that might be your, um, your flight or fight instincts, right. Kicking in and try and be like Daniel Kahneman. Hey, wow. Okay. This is a chance for me to be less wrong. If what they're saying is right, the idea gets better. Win-win if it is not valid. Upon inspection. Well, that has only given me the chance to reevaluate my idea and it passed the test.

Good. Right. So I think it's this, um, thing that Patrick Lensioni [00:42:00] points out in his book, the five dysfunctions of a team, and that is this opportunity to create trust in a team. So really tough conversations can happen where ideas can truly be challenged without judgment, without prosecution, without preaching or politicking.

It's just good old fashioned debate of the facts and the insights and evaluating the options for action. I think this is the environment you want to create. And I would always. Um, when, um, having your own ideas and, and you're sharing them, then the next thing I would always be doing is asking yourself, where is the proof?

And I I've told this story a lot on the show that so many people come to me and say, I've got an idea for an app or whatever. And I'm like, okay, how many people have you tested this idea on? And it's always single digits, and that's just simply not enough. If you want to be a scientist, go out and validate with 20, 50, a hundred people.

[00:43:00] Now you're talking about some scientific proof of, uh, and at least testing and validating. I mean, this is what the lean startup method is all based on a more scientific method to validating ideas. So I don't know Mark, but that's how I try to do. How about yourself? Yeah. I mean, I taking inspiration from a lot of the references.

You've just said I totally agree. And the first step for me was coming to terms with being able to accept that, that, that feedback, right. And not to respond in a self preservation or, um, defensive way, you know, when you do, um, accept. And when you're aware of the, the preaching, the prosecuting and the, and the politicking behaviors and the modes that we just covered, I think you can start.

And, and also going back to last week's episode with Carol and mindset, when you do have the capability to understand. [00:44:00] And be aware of your ego and the pitfalls of having that fixed mindset. You can accept those pieces of feedback, those data points, those requests from others, and you're right. That's only going to get better based on that proof, that evidence removing those gut reactions.

It's I think you're quite right. Yeah. For me, I mean, if I want to be an advocate of, you know, thinking like a scientist, as you know, Adam Grant outlines in his book, think again for me, what's so brilliant is when you go out and test an idea with third parties, I mean, you have to be a little bit careful that you don't just test with your inner circle, whether it be family or friends, or a couple of very close colleagues, because their tendency is going to be to say, yeah, it's a good idea.

Go out into the real world, intercept people and say, Hey, here's a thing. I want your feedback. Okay. What's really fascinating for me is that if you get feedback that the idea [00:45:00] is terrible, then, okay, great. Let's make it better. And you know what I would sell you on wouldn't you rather, you know, test your idea early like that, rather than all of those mistakes that I was making an inventory of where companies made bad decisions, uh, launched bad products, and then the implications, the millions of dollars of consequence that came out of this bad thinking this overconfidence cycle.

Wouldn't you rather go out there and just get a bit of feedback and get on the right path earlier in the process to be building something that is better, that's going to help use us more. That's going to be more viable as a business. Um, like wouldn't you rather feedback that either, uh, It says to you how you've got a good idea or B make sure bad idea.

Good idea. Either way. It's a win-win, but you've just got to be objective about searching out validation, testing feedback of any ideas. And I think that really starts with like, don't hold onto your [00:46:00] ideas because ain't nobody giving you feedback if they don't know about your idea. Right. Oh, I don't. I like that.

Don't be, uh, closed to those. Those are user feedback because yeah. That's how those ideas, products and so on are going to get better actually. Yep, absolutely. So I think the build on all of this that we can do together without Adam Grant is that once we open ourselves out, once we share our ideas, Improve them or, you know, enjoy that halo effect of, of validation.

What we can do is we can create a whole new cycle. If we're pushing away from the overconfidence cycle, we can then get into this whole momentum from the Reese re kind of rethinking cycle. So we're thinking like a scientist. And now let's hear about how Adam Grant's book can tell us about this rethinking cycle.

Start thinking like a scientist, by getting curious, every time you experience doubt, [00:47:00] the moment doubt turns to curiosity. You have an opportunity to discover new ideas and experience the joy of learning by learning and improving upon your ideas. You gain confidence in your capacity to learn while remaining humble about what you didn't know and what you still don't know.

This is known as confident, humility, doubt leads to curiosity, which leads to discovery, which leads to confident humility. This is known as a rethinking cycle. One way to keep the rethinking cycle going is to update a note on your phone. That contains two lists, things I don't know, and things I've learned recently, when you review bulk lists, you stay humble, but confident in your ability to learn Adam grants, things.

I don't know, list includes art, financial markets, fashion, chemistry, food, and why British accents turn American in songs and why it's impossible to tickle yourself. Another way to stay in the rethinking cycle is to listen to podcasts with people [00:48:00] who make you think, even if you disagree with what they think in the end and competent cycle ensures you spend your life defending outdated ideas and refusing to learn well, a rethinking the cycle increases your mental flexibility and allows you to experience the joy of learning to avoid an overconfidence cycle.

Recognize when you're in preaching mode, prosecuting mode or politicking mode. And start thinking like a scientist to enter a rethinking cycle don't defend, but find and cultivate an experience that celebrates the joy of learning. I mean, what a great, um, call to action here, Mike, the value of learning is so significant.

Isn't it? Oh my gosh. It is like the mega trend of moonshots podcast. Mark. Don't you think? Yeah. If there's anything that we try and do for our listeners, Mike, it's learn out loud. It's leave every show, having learned something new. And I love that little tip that gets caught out in that clip. Keeping a note on your phone or your computer [00:49:00] that calls out two things.

One a list of the things that I know. And the second, the things that I don't know, I love the idea of having the. Mental clarity to accept the things that you don't know, because then it, for me, at least it kind of inspires me to maybe go out and research a little bit more. You know, for example, Mike, I might not know about, um, Nutrition that, well, I might not know a great deal about how to, um, you know, balance the way that I consume food and so on in order to get the most out of my performance, you know, whether it's mental or physical.

So maybe that would go on my things that I don't know, list. And for me, at least that would inspire me to maybe take some time out of my day to listen to a podcast or go and research it online. There was a very good moment in that clip. Where they talked about this key opportunity when you don't [00:50:00] know how that's an opportunity.

And I, I want to take us back there just for a moment, because I feel like if there was one thing you could take from this show, if we could get really focused on one moment, it is when we feel like, Oh my God, I don't know. I don't have the answer. And I feel like we have a choice. We can either be open to that feeling when we have, we have the thought and then we responded emotionally.

We can be optimistic and curious, or we can be negative and shut down. And I feel that that might be the magic moment. Mark, if we could take this entire show and say, do one thing as a result of this show, all you moonshot is out there. If you could do one thing, one thing, I believe it's the choice of catching yourself.

When you are about to launch into preaching, prosecuting or politicking, and rather turning it into more of a growth [00:51:00] mindset and say, okay, cool. Let's see how we can take this on board. Learn it, understand it, make the idea better, find a solution. Don't you think if we can catch ourselves at that moment, that's where it all changes.

Yeah, I think you're right. Carol Dweck was calling it out in the previous show. If you can notice the triggers that showcase your, um, behavior falling into that fixed mindset, you can then know how to react and you can go out and grow. And I think you're, you're totally right here. This is one of the fundamental lessons that Adam Grant's really calling out in the rethinking cycle.

Isn't it. If you do notice. Uh, maybe your consistent behavior, uh, you can then choose how to respond again. Mike, it kind of feels like we're going back to this, this ego, isn't it? This awareness of knowing how you respond day to day, historically, whether you fall into [00:52:00] your preaching, you're prosecuting it's okay.

We'll do it right. We all do it. We all do it. Yeah. We all do it. Yeah. And, and once you kind of notice it, I think after today's show and digging into think again, I feel a little bit more informed about those different modes and because they feel pretty practical to me, I feel like it's going to be a little bit easier, much like making that note on your phone about what you know, and what you don't know.

It kind of. Makes a practical or pragmatic list that I can refer back to that then helps me inform, or at least direct or take ownership perhaps of how I respond and how we react in the big stuff here. Now we've actually got one more clip and I know if you're still listening to the show, you are indeed a true moonshot and to tease it out, it's two of our most favorite moonshot inspiring heroes.

[00:53:00] We're going to wrap the show up on that bit. Before that we want to invite the hardcore moonshot is Mark. We've got something we need them to test to give us feedback. We don't want to be preaches and prosecuted and politic about our idea for a mobile app. So what do we want our listeners to Duma? Well, listeners, as we try and encourage you to give us your recommendations on who to, uh, Uh, enable us to go and cover and research in future shows.

We want to invite you to pop along to www.moonshots.io and inform us by signing up or not signing up in, in case. If in fact, if that's the case, uh, to our better mobile application, this application will do three things. It's going to enable you to listen as well as interact with the show. You can vote for future shows, as well as get some training and even coaching on some of the main lessons and frameworks that we talk about on the [00:54:00] show.

But. As Mike just said, we're not here to direct or inform what we go out and create for you. Our listeners, we'd love to involve yourselves. We'd love to hear from you. And depending on how many people we get signed up, I think in last week's show, Mike, we decided on the nice round 100 listeners signed up.

Yep. So depending listeners on your interest and your desire to come and learn out loud with us, we'll go ahead and create a moonshot app for your smart phones. Yeah, yeah, definitely. We'll have it in your hot little hands, right? Just imagine you could, uh, learn all the models you could interact with the show.

You could vote up and down for your favorite heroes for us to, to check in. Um, so whether you want Simon Sinek, Adam Grant, Michelle Obama, you can vote them up and we'll do them on the show because in the end, we want to build a product here that you truly [00:55:00] love and helps you to be the very best version of yourself, but where do they go?

Mark? I jumped in. I was so excited. I forgot to that. You were about to say where they go. My answer, pop along to www.moonshots.io to find out more. Super. Well, there we go. We've got one more clip. Don't we Mark. And, uh, come on, tell them who is the Batman and Robin. We show why they show up with the Batman and Robin.

Two of our favorite moonshot is it's Mr. Adam Grant and Mr. Simon. Sineck the fact that these two got together to discuss Adam Grant's new book. Think again, the power of knowing what you don't know was pretty special. And I certainly enjoyed digging into a lot of the things that they had to say, but Mike, we couldn't end the show today without hearing a little bit from the two of them discussing the ideas of others.

So this last clip to play us out on today's show. Think again, it's Adam and Simon talking about how we should all aim for humility. [00:56:00] There's a Boris Grossberg study of star security analysts on wall street. And a general pattern is when you become a superstar in the investing world, you immediately assume that the grass has got to be green or somewhere else, and now you're worth more.

And so you get poached by another firm and Boris finds that it takes on average five years to recover your star status. Once you leave for a new firm, unless you take your team with you. In which case there is no drop in your performance. And so part of what I see there is if we take your surgeon analogy, you've got these surgeons who think their individual geniuses, they underestimate how dependent they are on the people around them to be successful.

And then they basically failed to reconstruct the collaborative environment, the routines, the complimentary strengths to offset their weaknesses that made them great in the first place. And so I wonder if, if there's something we can do to help people who think that their individual geniuses recognize that they're much more interdependent than they are independent.

In fact, I wonder if we could have a declaration of interdependence, not just the declaration of independence. Yeah. Yeah. This is something [00:57:00] I've talked about for a while, which is our country has over-indexed on rugged individualism. You know that it's not all about the me and the self and the self-help and the like, how do I get ahead?

And, you know, like we have an entire section of the bookshop called self-help. We have no section in the bookshop called help others, and you're right. You know, no single human being has ever achieved anything by themselves. Even if it was just their mom's saying, you can do this. You know, there's always someone, a relationship that believes in us.

And I completely agree. And I think this goes to humility, but Gaylor who's the fifth chief master Sergeant of the air force has my favorite definition of, he said, don't confuse humility with meekness. Is it humility is being open to the ideas of others, which I absolutely love. I like that a lot. And so if I, if I overlay that on the Brad Owens work, we were talking about, he would break humility down into, into three buckets.

The first one is learning from others, which is exactly what that quote is highlighting. The second is appreciating other's strengths, which you could probably argue [00:58:00] is a precursor to learning from others. And then the third is recognizing your own fallibility at some level and realizing I don't have all the answers.

And I think the meekness part of it is, is the part that so many people get wrong. One day I was curious, I looked up the Latin root of the word humility, and it turns out it comes from basically from the earth is the Latin root. So it's about being grounded, right? It's not saying I can't do this and lacking self-esteem it's saying, you know what?

I may have strengths, but I have weaknesses too. I'm imperfect. And because I might make mistakes and I'm human, I need to learn from other people. Yeah. They're not mutually, they're not mutually exclusive ideas. I mean, we know people with huge egos. That are very humble. And to your point, like they know they're good.

They think they're good, they're ambitious. And yet to all those definitions from Brett Owens, they're open to the ideas of others. They respect others and they're very open about what they know and what they don't know and where they need it. Woof, scenic, wiser rant, same room talking about how to be the best [00:59:00] version of yourself.

Does it get any better than that? No, I don't think it doesn't learning from others don't have that fixed approach or that fixed mindset. These two are, bring it home for us. Aren't they? Mike? Yeah. Yeah. Now of preaching, prosecuting and politicking. Which one are you going to put a special focus on avoiding?

I, for me, I think it's preaching, you know, going in with perhaps a blind, um, A blind opinion and putting the blinkers on, you know, there's this idea of, and I like the connection and I just want to revisit it as a final thought from my side, Mike, which is not only is preaching an external thing that you can do to others, but as you caught out, it can also be a little bit more macro.

I can preach to myself and in doing so close my mindset to other ideas that might come in from other people. I thought that was a nice build. Yeah, me too. [01:00:00] And it's funny, funny how that preaching relates to that last clip about Sinec and grant just riffing on it, where it's better together, right? It's better together because once you do share ideas, it can only, it can only get better.

One plus one equals three. There you go. You got it. Well, Mark, thank you ever so much. We've kicked off a new series. We've kicked off with the latest Adam Graham book. I mean, and it all comes back to saying thank you to Rodrigo who recommended it. So thank you very, very, very much indeed Rodrigo and. Thank you to you, all of our listeners, because it has been an absolute rip roaring, uh, kickoff to this new series where we dug into the book.

Uh, think again, the power of knowing what you don't know by Adam Grant. He's a true moonshots favorite. And he invited all of us to think again, to rethink our underlying assumptions because in a post [01:01:00] COVID world, there's nothing else we can do because so much has changed the very way that we work has changed.

So go and change your assumptions too, because that's all part. If we don't, it's all part of an overconfidence cycle. Yeah. Where we are preaching our ideas. We are prosecuting, we are politicking and having an overconfidence cycle. So we don't want to be there. We want our ideas to be great. So how do we do it?

Well, Adam Grant paved the wafers. He said, think like a scientist. Kickstart a rethinking cycle where you're open and curious in the moment, make sure you look for really good ideas, good data, good facts. And know that one thing above and beyond all others is you have to be humble. You have to think with others because if you think with others, not any, will the idea be better.

The decisions you make will be better and you will truly be on the path to a better version [01:02:00] of yourself. In fact, as all moon shutters are, you will be on the way to being the very best version of yourself. All right. That's a wrap of the moonshots podcast. We'll catch you next time.