Carol Dweck: Mindset

episode 124

SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Hello and welcome to the moonshots podcast. It's episode 124. I'm your co-host Mike Parsons. And as always, I am joined by Mr. Mark's growth mindset, Pearson Freeland. Good morning, Mark. Good morning, Mike psychology Parsons. We're getting into some pretty good, uh, approaches off the back of our timeless classic series.

Aren't we? We have indeed. And, um, I, I think we know everyone is digging this series because the messages we're getting the shout-outs, we're getting the numbers. They're all, um, pretty ridiculous. So I know that everybody is sitting there saying, well, how are we going to deliver the appropriate bookend? To this masterful classic [00:01:00] series.

So Mark, tell us, how do we wrap up this timeless classic series off the back of our Dale Carnegie's books, Stephen Covey, we have air-con Tali. I mean, all of these individuals have been pointing us to this destination and today we're getting, getting into Carol Dweck's mindset, the new psychology of success.

And Mike, I'm going to be honest, I feel as though we've, uh, almost danced with this idea of mindsets and, uh, growth, um, approaches in a lot of our shows before, particularly stoicism obstacles, the way it kind of feels like maybe Carol's been listening to us saying, Hey guys, when are you going to do my book?

Yeah, I, I must, I must agree. And I think the growth mindset is one of those kind of things that. You know, you hear about, but I'm not sure how much everybody really digs [00:02:00] into it. And, uh, I will confess that I've been like, uh, a true believer of growth mindset, but even returning back to Carol's work has helped me understand it better.

So I'm really glad that we're going to visit this classic. Cause I feel like as we have had with the entire series, there is just, there's just more wisdom to squeeze out of these Epic bodies of work. Isn't it. They really are. And I think when we get into today's show, as we will momentarily, the thing that you and I and our listeners should remember is that, uh, mindsets aren't permanent.

And I think that's, what's really, really interesting about Carol's book. The idea that we can choose, how we, um, Allow our minds to be directed by what goes on around us is a pretty interesting one. So I think as a challenge to our listeners, everybody should remember as we get into the clips as we will in a second, let's all think about how our [00:03:00] mindsets are flexible and up to us to decide how we react to things in our days.

Yeah. Yeah. I think this, this episode has a lot to give, so if you're looking to. You know, be the best version of yourself. If you're looking to really push through, uh, all the blockers and barriers that we have on the way to doing something meaningful, something worth doing, um, you should stay tuned. We're going to look at this idea of talent versus skills, how you actually change your mindset, how you can like actually launch into a growth mindset.

And we've got some super famous people who are, shall we say, disciples of, uh, Carol Dweck's work because we got some killer people who are live by this who are successful, not only in the business world. So there is so much to dig into. So Mark. Where do we begin this journey into the [00:04:00] growth mindset?

We've talked a lot about mindsets already in the last couple of minutes. So let's start with an introduction to what we mean by mindsets. This is a nice intro clip from our colleague and friend online called John Spencer. Who's going to tell us a little bit about the mindset continuum. Researcher and professor Carol Dweck uses the term mindset to describe the way people think about ability and talent.

Do I delineate between two different mindsets that exist on a continuum? The first is the fixed mindset, which suggests that your abilities are innate and unchangeable. The second is a growth mindset, which views it as something you can improve through practice in a fixed mindset. You view failure as permanent, but with a growth mindset, you see failure as a chance to learn and even pivot those with a fixed mindset are more likely to view critical feedback as a personal attack.

Well, those with a [00:05:00] growth mindset will see it as a chance to improve where they can develop new systems with a fixed mindset. You're more likely to choose easier tasks and put in minimal effort. After all of talent is fixed, why bother improving? I even tried, but with a growth mindset, you're more likely to embrace challenging tasks and work hard to improve those with a fixed mindset are likely to give up and they face an obstacle.

Meanwhile, those with a growth mindset, look you obstacles as a chance to experiment and solve problems in a fixed mindset. The focus is on measurable accomplishments, but with the growth mindset, the focus is more on a journey of continual improvement. With a fixed mindset. You are less likely to take creative risks, but with a growth mindset, creative risks are simply a way to innovate and improve.

Ultimately your mindset influences [00:06:00] everything from creative risk, taking to how you use feedback to whether or not you finish difficult tasks. And in the end, it's one of the greatest factors in determining whether or not you grow and improve in your abilities,

mindset, mindset, mindset. It is something that is, that can propel you. And you know, what strikes me is there are so many great stories of people that have not just accepted things as they are. Um, and you know, it just is, and you know what, I'm not going to try. I'm not going to have a growth mindset. What comes to mind are there so many great stories?

Like, um, for example, uh, Michael Jordan was actually cut from his high, high school basketball team. If you can believe that, um, Oprah got fired as a, Oh, she wasn't [00:07:00] fired. She was demoted as an anchor on a television show and went on to be the greatest television host of all time, Jordan, the greatest basketball player of all time.

And all of us will remember Steve jobs actually got failed from fivehead from Apple. If they didn't have the right mindset, that would have been the end of things. Wouldn't it? Yeah. That's that's, there's some great, um, famous. Well-known household names, who've gone through arguably failure or a real struggle, and they could have turned around and given up.

But now we know them even more so perhaps because they actually excelled or got better because they went through that particular challenge. Right. Oh, totally. And it just sets up like such an exciting world of possibilities. When you say to yourself, okay. I might not know how to do this. I might have failed this time, but like yakka willing said in our previous show, Problems are opportunities or [00:08:00] Zahara.

How did these failures make me stronger? And this is at the goes really to the essence of Carol Dweck's work mindset. This book, really, um, for me, it opens up a world of infinite possibilities. It's such an abundant book because once you can truly see the world has something you can continuously learn and grow from, and that when you hit all the bumps along the way, you can just say, good.

Do you remember in the Jaco show, when you said someone comes to him and says, well, look, we've really got a problem. And he says, Good. Yeah, that's a growth mindset. Right? Get up. I've been fired. Good. I've I've really hurt myself. Good. Yeah, it's correct. So, so this doesn't this, you know, as soon as you say that, rather than, Oh my God, I've got to prompt them.

Oh, it's the worst. Or can't believe it. Like you can almost just, as you flirt [00:09:00] between that fixed and growth mindset, you can start to feel how empowering a growth mindset is and how it is a choice of hours and how, if you really embrace this, what's so exciting is we're going to learn today, how there is a real difference between talent and skills and the role that this plays in success.

But the best news of all for all of you listening, is that you can embrace this mindset. You can do it yourself, and we're going to show you how, but first I think Mike, it's time that we actually go to the author herself. Let's have a listen to Carol Dweck talking about how everyone can grow and it is within our grasp to fulfill our potential.

All right, before we get into mindsets, uh, I want you to share what we've learned from what is now the widely discredited theory of self-esteem and the self-esteem movement. In the 1990s, the self-esteem movement took over the [00:10:00] world. Uh, we were told to tell everyone how fabulous, brilliant, talented, special they were all the time.

This was going to motivate them and boost their achievement. Instead, as you said, it was a complete disaster, it was led to the acceptance of mediocrity. It didn't challenge people to fulfill their potential. And our search showed telling people they're smart, actually backfires. It makes them afraid of challenges.

It makes them a fold in the face of obstacles. Cause they're worried, Oh, does this not look smart? Am I not smart? The whole currency is built around smart. So what triggered your interest in going deeper in researching how people are motivated and learn and how did that lead to your definition of mindsets?

I was always interested in why [00:11:00] some people wilted in the face of failure, uh, shied away from challenges. When people who are no more talented or able or embracing challenges and thriving in the face of failure, ultimately this led to our discovery of the mindsets. And what we found was that some people believe their talents and abilities are just these fixed traits.

You have a certain amount and that's it. But other people believe talents and abilities can be developed through hard work, good strategies, good mentoring from others. Um, through years of work, we found that having a fixed mindset led you to be afraid of challenges that might unmask your deficiencies made you withdraw and the face of difficulty, because you felt stupid.

You didn't want to feel stupid. And when other people, I think you [00:12:00] were stupid, whereas having this growth mindset, the idea that your abilities could be developed. Made you think why waste my time looking smart when I couldn't be getting smarter. And I do that through taking on challenges. I do that through seeing, seeing them through now growth mindset doesn't mean everyone's the same, that they don't different talent and abilities.

It just means everyone can grow. Oh, everyone can grow. I love the heat. Uh, some people wilting in the face of failure. I think that's a really valuable, um, build. And what you were saying in that first clip, Mike around the, uh, famous or well-known individuals who, uh, faced failure and actually came out of it stronger.

I think that's a good. Um, kind of analogy a plant having failure, uh, could either die away or actually get stronger. I think that's, that's a nice little connection that Carol made for us [00:13:00] there as well. And what Carol's doing for us helpfully in that clip is really defining those two different mindsets for us.

Mike, you know, fixed this idea of fear, withdrawal versus growth, which is all about development and, and taking on challenges. That's, that's the key takeaway here. Isn't it. The key definitions that we need to bear in mind when we consider our mindsets and as we consider choosing which one we want to follow and which one we want to celebrate or nurture.

Yeah. Yeah. I think what's also important that she raises is that self-esteem movement said differently. That's where every, everyone gets a medal. There are only winners, no losers, but the true reality of life, the reason that self-esteem movement has, has really found so much is. Some key ideas that Carol touched upon one is like, why would you pretend to be great when you could be great, but why would you, [00:14:00] why would you live in this falsehood?

But secondly, you know, then you, then you sort of almost live a lie where you say, Oh, I'm doing really well. Even though you're not, it's so disingenuous to yourself and the people around you. And I think it's really interesting that Ryan holiday, for example, can bring a whole bottle. You have work, uh, returning to stoicism, which is the opposite of the self-esteem movement, which is hard work failure, grinded out, um, play the long game, keep learning, keep growing.

And you can see that. Could you imagine if the self-esteem movement had still been popular when COVID hit? I mean, the world would have fallen apart because we just wouldn't have had the backbone to the stamina to get through things. And I think the context for all of us, it is, life is hard. That's the fact.

So we've got to look to these tools, these mindsets, these models, by which we [00:15:00] can embrace that hardship, grow through it and be like a Steve jobs, like an Oprah, like a Michael Jordan, who would just say great hard times. Good. This is an opportunity like Jaco willing, like even Joe Rogan embrace the discomfort.

So I think what we're seeing now is the context by which we can make this shift. And I think it's a super powerful, super relevant model to be thinking about right now as we come into 2021 and beyond, this is the time to say, all right, 2020 was pretty crazy, pretty hard. Let's make the most of that. Let's use that to define our personal growth.

Let's use that to build our skills. Sets the scene, doesn't it ma it sets the scene, uh, for exactly the next couple of clips that we're going to be getting into Mike and similar to some of the names that you've just mentioned as well as I'd want to add [00:16:00] Tom Brady. He's another great example of somebody who, you know, almost faced in his mind, uh, you know, failure, you know, w what number was he?

209. No, no, no, no, no, no way more than that. He was, if I remember, Oh, it was, uh, Oh gosh, I know it was the fifth or sixth round, which is getting, getting in the, in the back end of the draft. He was right at the back end of the draft, the sixth round pick. And I think it was looking at my notes and, you know, again, he, he came out and look at where he is now.

He chose to nurture. Those, um, those skills didn't eat and these next couple of clips that we're going to get into, uh, really building on that. And Mike, I think it's fair to say, going back to that self-esteem comment, I think there was a natural assumption for a while that, uh, people assumed, Hey, I'm either good at it.

Or I'm not my neighbor or friend. He's really good at that. I'll never be as good as [00:17:00] that, but the truth is that's quite a distracting and, uh, quite limited and limiting exactly right. It's a limiting approach. Isn't it. And what we've got next is actually. Again, a lovely household name. Mr. Will Smith telling us a little bit about skills and what I want to encourage as we listen to this is this reminder that not only are, um, as Carol was saying in that previous clip, everybody is able to go out and fulfill their potential, but really there's no shortcut.

So this next clip that we're going to listen to is will Smith's mindset and telling us a little bit about, has his attitude towards success. The separation of talent and skill is one of the, the, the, the greatest misunderstood concepts for people who are trying to Excel, who have dreams that want to do things talent you have naturally skill is only developed by hours and hours and hours of beating on your craft.

Um, I've never [00:18:00] really viewed myself as particularly talented where I Excel is ridiculous. Sickening work ethic, you know, while the other guy's sleeping, I'm working. What other guys eating I'm working. There's no easy way around it. No matter how talented you are, your talent is going to fail you. If you're not skilled, you know, if you don't study, if you don't work really hard and dedicate yourself to being better every single day, you'll never be able to communicate with, with people, with your artistry, the way that you want.

So only thing that I see that is distinctly different about me is I'm not afraid to die on a treadmill. You might have more talent than me. You might be smarter than me, but if we get on the treadmill together, right, there's two things you're getting off first or I'm going [00:19:00] to die. It's really that simple.

It is really that simple. So my, what we hear there is somebody in Mr. Wilson Smith, who is defining their success as this continuous obsession with growth and self improvement. He is just, he's not only going to work hard, but he's going to sit kind of, I would say, seek out growth and improvement.

Continuously, even if it's just like a fraction every day, because he's working hard and he's seeking personal growth and improvement, he's not fixed. And I think doesn't that just frame what Carol's work really discovered as the key to this thriving abundant world of opportunity around you versus poor old me.

I just don't have it in me. I [00:20:00] mean, it's, we're really starting to tear away that that sort of fixed mindset we're going to, we're smashing it down and helping ourselves understand that there is just this abundant world of personal growth. If you choose to find it, she choose to find it and work hard at it.

I think, you know, it would be very easy for, um, unless you use will Smith, uh, to make an excuse. You know, and say, ah, there's somebody who's younger. There's somebody who's fitter. There's somebody who's motivated by money, whatever it might be. I think it'd be cool, quite easy to fall into that category.

Wouldn't it, you know, similar to, again, going back to the Tom Brady, where he, as well as will Smith, um, uh, sharing an alignment here within their mindset, within their growth mindset specifically it's that need, or as you say, obsession, to keep on grinding the keep [00:21:00] on pushing really, really hard to stay at the top of their game and never accept the current situation as, okay, well, this is it.

And that's really the fixed concept. Isn't it? The fixed mindset of, okay, well, I'm not going to run faster. I'm not going to run harder. I'm not going to work. I'm just going to allow the current success or the current failure to determine. What it is that I'm doing. And I think that was a nice little Kip to kind of encourage us to keep on going out, pushing that boundary.

Yeah. And, uh, we've got another sort of Hollywood, uh, legend, um, so to speak. Who's got some thoughts first don't we mind dude, this next clip, continuing that that same vibe is if we've got will Smith setting us up for mindset, obsession, the grind that Yaka willing getting up at four 30 every day to go out and be the best version as well as the rock.

You know, he's another good example of somebody who's really driving this, uh, this growth mindset. [00:22:00] Uh, this next clip we've got is, well, what happens when you try and succeed, but things go wrong. What happens when you might be working very hard, but for some reason, it's just not giving you the payoff that you really desire.

And this next clip is from a legend. As you say, Mr. John legend and his acknowledgement of failure. The thing is every successful person, you know, has failed at what they love to do before. Um, I've been unsuccessful, uh, in my career. Uh, you just didn't know about it cause I wasn't famous yet. And I was trying to be famous.

I was trying to get a record deal for six years and I kept getting turned down and any successful person, you know, even though it seems like everything just happened for them, uh, it usually was proceeded by a bunch of failure, uh, or at least a significant amount, but the great ones, aren't the ones that don't fail.

They're, they're the ones that learn from their failure and they keep going and they're persistent and they're tenacious. And for me, uh, I was trying to get a record deal for from [00:23:00] 98 to 2004. And I got turned down by every major record label, including the one I'm signed to now. And for me that means that even when you hear, no, you have to keep going through all those nos until you get to yes.

And with learning something new, I think. It's the same principle when I was younger. I didn't really know that you could just get better at things because I think we're so used to the idea that you're talented at something and, and, uh, it's sort of fixed, you know, the idea that, Oh, he's just a good singer, you know, and even with singing, I've gotten better at seeing, um, as I've gotten older, I wasn't singing in a way that was sustainable and, uh, I wasn't breathing, right.

I wasn't doing a bunch of things correctly. I realized that there was a ceiling, um, that I couldn't crack through unless I actually, uh, studied and worked under a coach to get better. [00:24:00] And, uh, this idea that things are just fixed, um, is proven not to be the case. You can get better at things you can grow and even people that are innately talented, still need to go beyond, uh, that basic talent that they have and cultivate it.

Another great source of evidence about this growth mindset that Carol Dweck really has drawn our attention to. I mean, you know, there's another band that was also famous for, for receiving rejection, which was none other than the Beatles. And when they got rejected by the record label, DECA, this is what they said.

We don't like their sound. They have no future in show business, unquote,

Albert Albert Einstein couldn't speak to Lee was for Walt Disney, got fired from a newspaper, wait for this. This is what they said. He lacked imagination.

[00:25:00] Oh, great. So, I mean, I mean, the reason I think it's important to remind yourself that these stories is just because it didn't come naturally the first time doesn't mean it won't come. So whatever we want to. Upskilling, whatever we want to grow within the greatest obstacle is not our talent. The greatest obstacle is to be tenacious like will Smith.

And to accept that failure is a legitimate part of learning. Uh, as John legend has told us this Mark, I mean, I hope we have laid the groundwork here with all of the facts about the opportunity of the growth mindset and how we need to reject this fixed mindset. I think there it's so critical to, to really come to terms with that, because in a moment later in this show, we will [00:26:00] show you how to adopt it, the growth mindset.

But I think we have to pause for a moment and acknowledge that it's very tempting to say, Oh, I just can't do that. You know? I don't have that kind of skill. You know, how many times did he think people saying things like that? I, it's not even something that I hear from other people. I hear it from myself, you know, going back to last week's show and, uh, I think you said a great phrase, Mike, uh, your, your mind is your enemy.

What was it? What was your, your turn of phrase? Um, the mischievous devious mind that for me, is a great, uh, connection to today's show because if your mindset again is, is pretty mischievous and you are in that fixed space where you are willing to, you know, just say, Oh, well, it didn't work for me. I'm not going to give it another go then.

That's great. That's that's mischievous. [00:27:00] That's your, that's your mind pushing against you? Isn't it. It is. And when we look around us, what John Legion was kind of pointing at is like, don't forget that you only see people, uh, well, no one people, uh, once they have been successful. So it appears like they're what they call, they're an overnight success.

And, uh, there's a lot of wisdom around this idea of, there is no such thing as an overnight success, right? Because you can, you can always go into their backstory and find years if not, decades of dedication to whatever their craft might be. Um, and that is, that is the real truth. So we find ourselves, you know, maybe starting well on a, on a new mission and adventure and new project and your company career, whatever.

But then the rough seas come and then, you know, sometimes. More than [00:28:00] more than likely that we will abandon ship and say, now this is all too much, but what we see from both John legend will Smith and all the other people that we've mentioned is you've got to like grind it out. You've got to stay the course, be rather stoic about it.

But I think what Carol brings is extra is the growth mindset, which is this notion of continuous learning, celebrating, uh, those wins in personal growth, always seeking challenge and improvement and just saying, great. It failed. Awesome. What did I learn? And what am I going to do next? That's right. It's seeing that potential failure as an opportunity.

Isn't it? It's it's acknowledging ability. And your chance of success or becoming better at something as a, I guess, a product of those challenges, right. You know, similar to, if you are training for a race and you pull a muscle, what are you going to do? You're going to [00:29:00] learn that you might need to stretch more.

You might need to roll, you might need to do something a little bit different that, you know, turn all of your brains cogs and thinking, okay, well, if this, then that this happened, so what am I going to learn from it rather than saying, Oh, you know, I, I pulled a muscle, so I'm never going to run again. All right.

That would be the fixed versus my growth mindset. Wouldn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Look, it's, it's really powerful stuff. So I'm, I'm. Can't wait to get into the very practical, uh, part of the show where we really break it down and show you some of the steps you can take to do it. But when I think about growth, Mark, I want to suggest a notion to you.

I think if we want to learn together, if we want to learn out loud here on the moonshots podcast, that really involves all of you, our listeners, our moonshot is, and Mark, we have a little idea that we want to float past our [00:30:00] listeners. Don't we, there's a, there's a certain little something that we'd like to invite them to be part of.

We'd like to invite you listeners to go and pop along to our, our website mentions.io. But here's something a little bit different for those who, who regularly tune in and listen to us. We have a notion and a proposition that we'd like to put to you guys. We'd like. Mike and I to build and create a platform and application that's downloadable onto your phone that enables you to interact with shows.

You can still listen to the show. You can actually go one step further. You can comment. You can share, you can bookmark. You could see what are those pieces of data that we've mentioned about our shows with transcriptions and episode notes, but you could also take part in community Asian and dialer with us.

You can vote for future shows and you could even maybe get it some training and coaching on [00:31:00] some of the key ideas and frameworks that we discuss on the moonshot show. However, Mike. Is it really up to you and I to go and create things? Not really. Yeah. I think, you know, we're happy to build this for all of you.

Yeah. Listeners, the official Duncan and our moonshots. Absolutely. Um, but we need you guys to tell us if it's a good idea or not. So if you go to moonshots.io, there's a little banner across the top of the page where you can go to the signup page for the up. And I think if we get a certain number of beta testers, we will, uh, launch, uh, the application to them.

I mean, Mark, how many do you think, how many listeners need to raise their hand to get the beater of our moonshots app? I mean, what what's gonna get us excited to build this whole thing, produce all that content and ship a great. Moonshot app to them. It's [00:32:00] like, do we need, like, do we need like five or 10 or that seemed a bit loaded?

Doesn't it? It, it does, particularly when we think about all the new listeners tuning in from the four corners of the globe and just something for our backlog, Mike, we're going to have to figure out translations and different versions of the app for all of our different lessons. Um, would you say, uh, 50 or a hundred just to keep, keep it in a, you know, that sounds pretty, pretty good.

I mean, let's, let's see if we can make like there's three core features to our app and let's see if we can establish the need for them. I mean, number one, I think general listening in existing apps to podcasts is really lame. It is particularly hard to go beyond the pressing of play and the pressing of polls, for example, bookmarking of your favorite podcasts.

Um, Striking up comments, [00:33:00] thumbs up sharing like those critical moments that you think, Oh my gosh, Mike would love this. I've got to send it to him. I, that stuff ain't easy, like listening is a very one way rudimentary. I would argue in all podcast apps. My personal experience is exactly that it's, it's not conducive to having a dialogue.

And we, Mike and I adore when our listeners get in touch. Don't we Mike, when people leave us notes, send us emails and interact with us. So I think this platform, this app kind of, to me, solves that issue by creating a chance to have a more meaningful, meaningful conversation, uh, with our listeners. Indeed.

And in fact, we, the second feature we want is, um, to create this feature where your votes determine the shows that we do in the future. So think of it a bit like product hunt or Reddit, where you can vote up a particular authors, particular [00:34:00] celebrities, famous people, sportsman, um, academics. You can actually vote them up.

And the ones that rise to the top, you're telling us that's who you want us to cover. I mean, we've had great suggestions from Terry, uh, Rodriguez, um, Bettina. There's just some of our listeners who constantly send us great suggestions and we're very grateful for that. So that's another thing you can do.

Like if you really want to hear us decode and break down a book, just get into the app, sign up, tell us what you want. You can submit your own suggestions. You can vote up others. And then lastly is, you know, there's definitely for example, um, the, an opportunity to train yourself, to kind of get the playbook for being the best version of yourself.

So imagine you can go to one destination that will break down growth mindset, how to learn, how to find stillness, um, how to keep your ego in check. Well, this will be the training and coaching [00:35:00] section. So three big features in the app, interactive listening, voting for shows and training. It's all there. If you go to moonshots.io, sign up for the beta, and if we get 100 people that sign up, that's assigned to me, Mark, that everyone really wants it.

So let us know, let your mouse clicks, do the voting, let your keyboards do the typing. Tell us if you want the moonshots app, head over dementia. It's dot IO, click on the banner at the top and just tell us. Your name, your details, and you will be signed up for the beta or I can't wait. Fingers crossed. I'd love to see it, Mike.

So let's see how to go to the a hundred. Got together, got to get a hundred. Let's see if our listeners agree. Yeah. Okay. So now it's time to get into how we do this growth mindset stuff. How do we embody the best of Carol Dweck? How do we do it? Like will Smith and John legend. So there is no more appropriate person to go to then [00:36:00] Carol herself, let's have a listen to her, talking about how we get into the growth mindset.

So you talked about over, over lunch. We had an itching discussion with part of the team here about, uh, a growth mindset, fixed mindset. It's a great simplified way to think of it yet. People can have both. And it's more of a spectrum. Talk a little bit more about, about how you can be both mindsets. We're all a mixture.

Um, it's true that you can have a fixed mindset in one area. And a growth mindset and other area, but even, and it's true that it's a spectrum man, a dichotomy, but it's really dynamic even in a given area. Sometimes you're in a fixed mindset using, Oh, uh, my ability to fix, I have to prove them. I have to look smart.

I can't show that I'm working too hard. People might then think I'm so smart. And other times we could be more in a growth mindset. So what we have to start doing is [00:37:00] looking for what triggers that, because the fixed mindset holds us back. We have to start looking for what triggers it and all of us, even me.

Um, what happens when you're facing a big challenge? Uh, do you worry about, well, I'm going to unmask deficiencies. What happens when there's a setback? Do you think maybe I'm not good at this. What happens when you're receiving criticism? Do you get angry and defensive? What happens when you see someone who's better at you in what you're good at?

Do you feel jealous and resentful or do you feel inspired? Maybe I can learn from that person. Maybe they can mentor me. Uh, so watch out at these trigger moments, see how you're feeling and see if you can get yourself into more of a growth mindset. Oh, pretty, pretty significant. Uh, step there, Mike, isn't it [00:38:00] going from?

How we see a notice when you're in a fixed mindset, when you're in a growth mindset and taking action in order to revert yourself back into the growth mindset, if you are indeed. Stuck within that fixed mindset, because look, I'm certainly Mike in my, in my past, and even nowadays often getting myself into that fixed mindset where you just kinda say, well, this is it, then this is all I can do.

And that's when that fight or flight really kicks in. Isn't it. And what invariably happens is you tend to go into the flight mode. Yeah. Yeah. I think, uh, what, uh, th this is really taking us into, I think the starting point to actually doing this. Uh, I think what this is doing is showing us the moment where the [00:39:00] rubber hits the road.

So. Let's kind of dig into this because I think if you are presented with a moment, a challenge, there's a couple of things that you're tempted to say, I'm no good at this. Um, I give up, um, you know, it's really hard. I can't make this any better. I just can't do it. Oh, I've made mistake. How stupid am I? Uh, you know, like you can, you can be very fixed right now.

What you can do is when, uh, when there's a trigger, it could be a moment, a problem, a challenge, an email, a call, something unexpected happens. You can say, Hey, what am I missing? Hey, I'm not at the destination, but I'm on the right track. What are some of the things? So what are some of the models and learnings that I have that could help me grow?

Um, Hey, this looks like it's [00:40:00] going to take longer than expected. Um, you know, good thing now that I've made this mistake, I now know that that's not the right approach, so I can eliminate that from my consideration list. Right. And if you are presented with a challenge or a failure, you can say, Hmm, did I really do my best here?

Did I, did I really think about it in the right way? Did I give it enough? Um, Hey, and you know what, there is plenty of time left to get it right. I mean, that's when you start moving into the growth mindset and I think this is our choice on how we perceive things when they happen. The growth mindset is giving you permission to not fall to your ego and saying, ah, this is no good.

I hate this. But rather the growth mindset is like, all right, okay. It didn't work out. What am I missing? I know that, um, when I'm encountering challenges [00:41:00] and problems, I must be doing the right thing. Cause I'm stretching. I'm exploring. I think this is the beginning of the growth mindset response, the growth mindset journey.

Don't you? Yeah, I think the, the there's a wonderful visual that I've seen somewhere where a fixed mindset is kind of like a brick wall and it's set in stone and it, it just demonstrates, right. This is the problem. It's hit a wall. That's all I can do. Whereas. The growth mindset is a little bit more dynamic fluctuates.

It gets stronger because of those responses that you've just gone through. You know, the one for me that particularly, uh, I really like is where that mistakes help me get better show, you know, give it a, go see what happens, test and learn. Um, but also this, this challenge to ourselves of is it really my best work?

You know, you and I have spoken a lot about, um, how we prepare to deliver work on the, on the moonshot shirt [00:42:00] before about preparation, creating a skeleton, um, a bit of work beforehand in order to guide us as we come back to the next day. And I think that's a kind of habit Mike, that we use in order to try and deliver our best work.

And, um, I, I think that's quite a, um, interesting approach to challenging ourselves to do that. Isn't it? It is, it is. And I think this is the big learning from what we just heard from Carol Dweck is that when challenge on obstacles come, the growth mindset starts with good. I can grow through this. I am on the right track.

I'm not there, right? I'm not going to be of the self esteem era, but I am thriving through the challenge and through the growth I am striving to continuously learn. And I will celebrate, even when I feel like a failure, this tells me that I'm [00:43:00] doing the right thing, and this sets us up for this next idea from cow where she's challenging us, she's really going to get on the sharp end of this.

So this is one that you really have to tune in. Let's have a listen to Carol Dweck talking about how we should all ways. Take the challenge. What are some things specific behaviors you can do to get yourself on the road to a growth mindset? Here are some ideas. So first, um, if you have a choice of something safe versus a challenge, take the challenge.

If you hit an obstacle, try to interpret it in a growth mindset way. So w what can I learn from this? What can I do now? As I mentioned before, if you see someone who's better than you go learn from them. Uh, [00:44:00] so those are a set of behaviors you can start doing. In addition to, as I also mentioned before monitoring those fixed mindset triggers, and the thing is that.

It's a journey. That one is always on. It's not ever the case that you've arrived at a full permanent growth mindset. It's something how that you have to, um, look at all the time. Cause even I hear so listen to them, voice in your head at the trigger points. Cause even I hear myself saying sometimes in my head, I was never good at that.

Whoa, what did I say that? So listen to the voice. It's constantly running in your head and I actually recommend that as a very, very first [00:45:00] step. Um, the first few weeks that you embark on this journey, don't push yourself to exhibit any growth mindset, characteristics. Just listen to that voice. That says, jump, try this.

You might look foolish. You made a mistake. If people knew that they wouldn't look at you in the same way, uh, that person's better than me. That just whatever that voice is saying in here had listen to it and even do it with friends, discuss it. Or when you see someone doing something that looks effortless, are you thinking, Oh, they're just brilliant and talented, uh, catch yourself thinking that or someone who's struggling.

Um, D are you thinking, Oh, they're not really good at that. Albert Einstein says, I, I'm not that smart. I'm not smarter than other people. And he meant it. He said, [00:46:00] I just stick to things longer. That's why people thought he was slow. Originally. He knew he didn't understand. Time space, energy and so forth. So I would say the very first step is the first few weeks just listened to that fixed mindset, voice it's there.

We all have it. And if you don't hear it, it will rule your behavior. Well, Carol, coming out with some pragmatic tips for us, Mike, uh, don't choose safe, see obstacles as growth opportunities, learn from those who are better, but remember that you might not land on it. And that stayed overnight. You know, you got to keep working on it, but a good reminder and very, uh, uh, connected to Toll's work where he's like, um, Look at your ego and how it's creating this voice in your head.

Um, you know, as she was [00:47:00] saying like, Oh, that person is really good at that thing. They're way better than me. Or I don't want to try something new because it will be embarrassing if I fail. That is the ego speaking in your mind, right? That is the ego having its will with you. And you can't give in, uh, to that, like any sort of criticism is not a sign of inadequacy.

Rather you can see that feedback as a vehicle for self-growth right. You know, setbacks are, are, are not the end of the story where you're like, well, it didn't work all over. No, these are the moments where you push through and, and grow. And it's really important to understand that we can be tempted because of our egos to avoid challenge, because it doesn't feel safe.

We might do something dumb. We might be exposed, but just be comfortable in the not knowing just [00:48:00] even first principle here is watch out for that voice that might prevent you from taking on a deeply rewarding, uh, challenge or opportunity, because you're like, Oh no, I don't want to embarrass myself. And we're all guilty of this thinking only, Oh 100%.

And you know, for me, I certainly found myself having that fixed mindset when seeing a potential obstacle or, or brief or request coming along. And I think this is not my strong suit. This is not something I'm going to naturally land on my feet on. And it is really tempting to therefore, to, to, to fly, you know?

Yes. And, and that is the voice. Of my fixed mindset coming through and putting a ceiling on that action. And what Carol was talking about is catch yourself in the moment and say bad, Mark. Don't think like that, right? Because that's the first point. If you're aware that you have that temptation and then you literally can train yourself, okay.

That didn't [00:49:00] work out. All right, what can we learn from this? How can we do it better? How can we grow through this? It's not the end of the story, is it? No. I find this connection with the ego. So fascinating when there's spin so many frameworks and mindset approaches that we've, we've learned on the show that connect back to this, this idea, isn't it, you know, you are always.

Working with your ego in mind, you might, your ego is kind of in the driving seat, at least some of the time. And this reminder that Carol is giving us in her book is yep. Notice it maybe just for the first month, the first few weeks, whatever. Just note said, don't do anything about it. Just notes. Sit, come to terms with hearing that voice hearing and appreciating.

Okay. Right. It's around. It's saying this that's okay. Because once you hear it, once you appreciate it and are aware of it, [00:50:00] then you can go out and potentially change yourself back to that growth mindset. I think that's so fascinating. How ego keeps on coming back. Yeah. The, the relationship of the ego is a, is a great one.

So if our listeners are really interested in that they should head over to the episode we did recently with rhino holiday's work. Ego is the enemy because what's so fascinating is it is a really, it is the perfect, uh, first principle to have on the back of this self-esteem everyone gets a metal, a movement to go hang on.

You're not nearly as good as you might think you are. And know that this voice in your mind, driven by fight or flight will be the thing that is the barrier in the first step towards a growth mindset. Once you know [00:51:00] that that voice in your head is saying, no, don't do that because that could be really embarrassing.

Right? You go hang on a second. Once you are watching the thinker is echo told. Say, once you hear the ego speaking to you, you can say, I choose not to listen to that thought. It's just going to pass me by. And I'm going to entertain a growth mindset. I'm going to know that feedback is a great chance for me to grow setbacks as yakka, willing to say.

Good. And as we heard from John Lamb, legend willsmith effort, the grind that six years, it took John legend before he got the record deal. That's, what's making us smarter and better. It is not like there's natural God given gift. And you've either got it. Or you don't, it's what you make of it, isn't it?

Yeah. What do you make of it and the effort that you put into it? It's kind of like, um, the way I like to try and think of myself, Mike is kind of like an engine and. Maybe this is my, uh, obsession with diggers when I was a kid. [00:52:00] But, uh, you know, the idea of fueling the engine in order to get it moving. And in this case, I think the effort is that fuel.

Isn't it? The you're you're working on trying to change that mindset in order to make yourself smarter and better. And that's the kind of fuel that keeps you, keeps you learning, keeps you growing. I mean, what, uh, what, uh, uh, Bizarre analogy. I've tried to make there. Maybe that's my 13 year old coming through, but that's what really, what really matters is that you can digest and relate to this.

However you want. First rule number one, know that the ego will force you towards a fixed mindset, choose for a growth mindset. And that starts with embracing challenge embracing adversity. And that will set you on your way, but it's not only a season career guys and gals who [00:53:00] know this truth. There's also some really amazing stories of, uh, kids and students embracing the growth mindset.

And we're going to wrap the show up with listening to Carol Dweck sharing with us a little note that she received about the growth mindset from a 13 last year, I got a letter from a 13 year old boy. He said, dear professor Dweck, I read your book already. I liked the fact that it was based on sound scientific research.

That's why I decided to test out your growth mindset principles in three areas of my life. As a result, I'm earning higher grades. I have a better relationship with my parents. I have a better relationship with the other kids at school. I realize I've [00:54:00] wasted most of my life.

let's not waste any more lives because the more we know that basic human abilities can be grown, the more it becomes a basic human right for kids. All kids, all adults to live in environments that create that growth. What a wonderful little outro clip from Carolyn one of her fans, a 13 year old writing to her to say I've wasted my life.

I think it's a pretty powerful image for us, Mike, you know, the power of Carol's book mindset to inspire and encourage us to change how we react to things. I think that's a really good call to action there. Um, I [00:55:00] think that the, uh, the, the frame here is that the unlock for us. Is if we choose for growth, uh, you can, you'll still face hardship and challenge, but you will do so in the search of personal growth, personal improvement.

And if you cumulatively like will Smith on the treadmill, if you just keep going, you'll get these amazing compound results, won't you? Yep. You'll keep on, keep on getting better and you'll stay ahead of your, um, not only your, your competitors, so to speak, um, as will Smith might be thinking, but actually more importantly ahead of yourself ahead of your fixed mindset, which is the reason why a lot of us find ourselves limited by a ceiling or an approach, or a reaction to occasions that are pretty uncomfortable, right?

[00:56:00] Yeah. And just, it's funny how, I mean, a question for you is how many other people have we studied on the show that you can see in this thinking like who comes to mind for you? Uh, as being people who I totally have this mindset, we discussed Tom Brady already. He was such a good visual, um, uh, sorry, uh, relevant demonstration of somebody who keeps on the top of their game.

He keeps on pushing himself, both physically as well as mentally. And, you know, he is one of the greatest of all times. I think we also found that with, uh, even lady Gaga, you know, in the music space, again, somebody who, uh, wasn't finding it straight away as success straight away, kept on pushing, kept on giving it a go.

And that is a great demonstration of, of her growth mindset. Keeping her much like John legend. Moving in that space. I think, [00:57:00] you know, Joe Rogan touched on it, obviously Ron holiday episode 112 ego is the enemy really, really touches on this concept of ego and mindset as well. Um, I think to be honest, even the, our timeless classic series, Stephen Covey, he touched on the idea of, of habits and how to be effective.

And I'd argue that those first three habits were really all around reflecting on ourselves. And I'd say that this is a perfect connection or bridge between his work as well as Carol's, the mindset is a shared concept between the two of them. And they're both encouraging us to be aware of our mindsets and remember that we are ultimately in control of them if we choose to be, I think that's the main lesson for me, Mike, that I've really got out of.

A lot of these shows around mindset we're in control. If we choose to be. Yes. And sometimes maybe, maybe many of us don't even [00:58:00] know that choice exists, but once we're aware of the choice, you know, what we've done in the second half of the show is really pushed into, okay, here's what you got to do once you've made that, you've got to say, great, what am I missing?

I'm on the right track. I'm not there yet. You know, like how can I use everything I've learned? I can always keep improving, you know, mistakes are a great chance for growth. Like these are the ways we need to respond in the moment. Right? Yep. In the moment, notice it, notice how you're going to react and choose to go and, uh, react in that positive growth mindset approach.

Um, starting today. Yeah. I'm going to take a bet that apart from knowing that there is a choice in mindset, which is so very powerful, I think for you too, my guess is going to be that it's the, the fixed mindset is born of the ego. I think that's the greatest revelation for you today. Yeah, for me, it's the, the [00:59:00] connection between fixed and ego being the, the glass ceiling that you can either choose to look through and think.

Yep. Okay. Well the glass ceilings there are, I'll leave it where it is or you choose to go and try and burst through it. I think that's that's for me. You've hit the nail on the head. Mike, that's the, the most powerful concept for me. What about you? I think defining your success. And satisfaction in the day has been growing and improving that, that to me as it's been a very good reminder in that.

Yeah. Very, very, very good. Well, Mark, I think we get to this moment where I just say, thank you. Thank you for helping me know that there is this choice. Thank you to you, uh, for breaking down some of the steps that we can take together. It was pretty good. Wasn't it? That was great. Very revealing. And I'd say a perfect, uh, closer of the timeless classic series.

And Mike, just to give our, our [01:00:00] listeners a little bit of a tease, um, we're actually going to be launching into a couple of episodes that are listeners themselves. Have recommended to us, including from Mr. Terry Bean, a couple of books on Dan Millman, which I think is going to be really, really good as well as a recommendation from Rodrigo.

So I can't wait to get into those sounds good. And, uh, if you want anything, uh, around this show, previous shows, future shows anything at all, head over to moonshots.io, and you will find a world of moon shotting happening right there on the interwebs Mark. Thank you to you for coming on this journey with me and thank you to you.

Alison is all you moon shutters, all of you who are trying to be the best version of yourselves. Thank you for joining us on this journey into Carol Dweck, where we learned it out loud and it was all about. Mindset [01:01:00] mindset. Is it fixed or is it a growth mindset? And here's the great news. Everyone.

Everyone has the choice to grow and fulfill their potential, just like will Smith. We know we have learned, we have studied that skills and success can be developed. They are not fixed. They are true, really born of growth. And another thing that is growth is failure. And we heard that from six years searching for a record deal from John in himself.

So you are mentioned as you have this choice, you have this opportunity to choose for growth and you can see setbacks are ideal opportunities. From growth feedback is your chance to grow and to improve too. And listen to Carol. When she says, when there is a choice, you always take the challenge. And if you do that, you'll be in a position where you are no longer wasting this beautiful life that you indeed have.

So go out there and define your growth. [01:02:00] Define your success through the act of continuous improvement. See a world of abundance, see an opportunity to grow, to learn into improve. And without a doubt, you will be the very best version of yourself using this thinking from Carol to wracking. All right, everybody, that's it for the moonshots podcast.