christine legarde: I’ll find my way
EPISODE 117
In episode 117, we are delving into Christine Lagardes’ successful career built on being bold and curious.
Christine Lagarde may be the “rock star” head of the International Monetary Fund (IMF), but she was also the first woman to become finance minister of a G8 economy and is the first woman to head both the ECB (European Central Bank).
A noted antitrust and labor lawyer, the first female Chair of the major international law firm Baker & McKenzie. Christine Lagarde dishes out advice on all aspects of life – including her very own secrets to success.
"I’ll find my way - and if I don’t, I’ll make it".
Christine Lagarde
SHOW OUTLINE
INTRO
Learning from tough journeys and obstacles
Dare to change what’s around you (1m52)
MINDSET
Christine and her ‘curiosity’
Take the risk and learn in the process (1m30)
Always remember the quote: ‘I’ll find my way - and if I don’t, I’ll make it’
Stand your ground (2m57)
HOW TO BE BOLD AND CURIOUS!
Christine reminds us that risks can be opportunities
Fall in love with risk-taking (56s)
Christine Lagarde's Most Formative Leadership Lesson
Lead by example (1m16)
Christine and Resilience, and the need to improve yourself
Don’t let the bastards get you (1m29)
OUTRO
Final pieces of advice from Christine: collaboration and communication
Teamwork and listening to the voices (2m04)
TRANSCRIPT
Hello, and welcome to the Moonshots Podcast. This podcast it's episode 117. I'm your co-host Mike Parsons. And as always, I'm joined by the man who is both bold and courageous. Yes, once again. My co-host Mr. Mark Pearson. Freeland. Good morning, Mark. Good morning, Mr. Mike, how are you doing on this fine morning? This idea of getting into the innovation leadership tactics of another inspiring individual.
It's pretty exciting for me because here's what I was thinking. Getting ready for our. Innovator, uh, and doing our homework for this show. I was left with this idea of like every single person that we study and learn from each and every one of them has something [00:01:00] unique in how they've been successful that we can learn from.
And I think that's fair to say we've got that in spades today. Don't we? Yeah, we really do. Once again, we're covering. An individual that doesn't really need an introduction because of her wealth of experience, not only in the European States, but across the world. We today, Mike are digging into the president of the European central bank.
Christine Lagarde. What a hugely powerful and inspiring individual. Pretty damn awesome. I think another inspiring and awesome a woman that we'd like to shout out to is Bettina, who actually suggested that we do Christine Lee. God. So a big shout out to one of our absolute top listeners. Who's always sending us suggestions.
Thank you. To you Bettina for getting us on to Christine Lagarde and making that suggestion. And we hope to serve you well [00:02:00] today to break down the universe of learnings and advice from Christine, the guide. And I mean, my, this is a woman who has done amazing things. Christine, the God works in international finance, kind of a crazy busy complex world.
That's number one, number two, she's currently running everything. And I'm when I say everything, when it comes to. The European central bank. She is the top dog and she has to cover all the complexities of Europe having lived there. I love Europe, but Jesus pretty confusing with all the different countries and all the different languages and all the different cultures and points of view.
But she is an absolute superstar of the finance world. And just to put a twist on this, she has ascended to the very top of the finance world. Which is traditionally, let's be honest. It is a real boys club and she, as a woman has got to the top [00:03:00] and we've got a lot of great thoughts, ideas, and behaviors that we can learn from her.
Don't we mind. Yeah, we really do today. We're going to be digging into Christine's own secrets to success, but going back to your point a second ago, Mike, it's amazing that we've got episode 117. We're still being inspired. We're still being surprised. We're still being driven to be the best version of ourselves.
And to take a moment and question, perhaps our habits and rituals, but each week, each episode, each individual that we cover, whether that a book or a one-off show it, it does, it gets me going. It makes me reflect on. Some of the practices that I've done throughout my career. Some of the behaviors that I've, I've probably picked up from, from collaborating, eating with other people and so on.
And what's wonderful having this opportunity with yourself as well as all of our listeners [00:04:00] is to really dig into some of those behaviors, attitudes, and mindsets that these innovators. And entrepreneurs and authors and, and, you know, major, uh, monetary economists and teach us. And. You know, I, I just want to say a quick, thanks, Mike.
You know, I'm, I'm, can't wait to get into Christine today. Me too. I think, um, what we've got ahead for you, our listeners today is we're going to go on a huge whirlwind to have this universe of not only a great thinker, but somebody who has the capacity to get people on the same page. So we've got some really powerful mindsets and some really great practical.
Behaviors that we can consider when we face challenges or face complexity. Those are the two big things that I think Christina God has overcome. I am totally primed and ready to learn from Christine, my God, Mark, where are we going to kick [00:05:00] off the adventure? Remind our listeners. We're currently halfway through our leadership series.
The first episode of said, uh, one, one five was Mr. Tom Brady. And one, one six was Jeff as us. So today with Christine, I wants to choose an introduction that demonstrated and visualize a little bit of a consistent thread. But I think has been, uh, coming through both of our previous leaders, as well as some of our other innovators throughout show.
So this first clip mic we're gonna hit from Christine telling us about tough journeys, as well as obstacles. And as you might remember from the Ron holiday series, obstacles are opportunities. So this first clip is a perfect segue between all of our other innovators into the Christine's world. The first clip is data change what's around you.
Well, when I was drafted to become, um, a minister of trade for France and then minister of finance, uh, those were tough journeys, uh, because trade was okay because I had, you know, run the [00:06:00] firm Baker McKenzie around the world. And I, I, I, I was a good troop. I was a good traveler. I was a good, you know, I had business acumen.
I had spent 20 plus years of my life in the private sector, but moving to minister of finance was a different kettle of fish because, you know, from the law. Uh, to move into finance and economy at a time when the financial crisis really hit in 2008, that was tough. So it was a lot of hard work, probably harder than any man in equivalent situation would have put in because we tend to do that.
We tend to over-prepare, we tend to over, uh, labor, uh, that's in the nature of the beast, I guess, but I. I had to pass a few tests because, or many of those, you know, men advisers were seeing me coming as minister of finance with this look on their face, which was like, aha, you think you're going to run this ministry?
Well, we'll [00:07:00] see about that. So it was, it was hard, but I think he, I think in every risk. Taking decision that you make, uh, you have to be a little bit bold. You have to just dare, I think dare to dare to change for yourself and dare to change around you. And you know, if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. You just bounce back and you collect yourself and, and, uh, you shouldn't feel guilty about it.
And I think working with, with a team of people around you. Uh, is, is a huge, uh, strength that you can also harness to bounce back and move to something else. Oh, I liked that bounce back, you know, it's so wonderful to hear people like Christine Lee, God or Michelle Obama who are so well-regarded or guided really not only was Christine embracing change.
She was like in that [00:08:00] clip, we heard her talking about like, yes, change, bring it on. But isn't it fantastic Mark to hear them say, well, it's not always going to work and going a failing and a stumble, but dust yourself up. Keep going. I think there, there is a real pattern that we're discovering that maybe.
The difference between us in these super successful people is then not going into this Valley of darkness and doom and gloom when things don't work and blame and judgment and guilt, they're like, Oh, well it didn't work. Let's go again. Like there's a certain bounce that they have, right. They just don't allow failure to get them down.
Do they? No, they don't. And as Christine's going out there, every risk taking decision. Requires this bold and daring behavior. So you're all right. Going into an, uh, perhaps difficult situation. Whether nowadays it might be a project or an [00:09:00] email or a meeting or an uncomfortable conversation that you've been avoiding for awhile going in with that mindset of, okay, I'm going to be bold.
I'm going to be daring. I'm going to be honest before you actually get into that session. You know, I think the, what I'm hearing from Christine and that clip is preparation. It's preparation and the acceptance that, okay, this could be tough. But that's okay. I'm going to learn something from it. And that for me is, is a great reminder, particularly in this pretty unpredictable world that we're still in.
It's, it's just a stark reminder that we can't control absolutely everything. But what we can do is control how we approach it and how we interpret. These challenges and obstacles. Yeah. Christina, God, I think we've got someone who's both bold and courageous and tough and resilient. We've got a lot coming up.
We've got a bunch of thoughts around some of the [00:10:00] mindsets that she has. You've already heard her a loo to this notion of risk and managing that. But we've also got some ways that you can lead by example, the way you can pull people together. Cause don't forget, she's got to get like 20 nations are all on the same page about central banking, strategies and actions in a very turbulent.
I mean period. I mean, Holy smoke think about, you know, all of the ups and downs that the financial markets do go through and she's got to kind of keep a cohesive point of view. What a challenge. I think there is a lot to learn, but I tell you what, Mark. I really learned lots from the ratings and the reviews that we get of our podcast.
We love it when our listeners tell us what they like, they can go to moonshots.io and they can send us feedback. But when [00:11:00] they're in their podcast, listening app of choice, like as in right now, it has their listening. What would we ask them to do more? I think really, really valuable is when our users have, uh, left us a little rating or review, you know, what's undeniable with podcasting is the way to spread.
The word is for users to share it, to maybe leave a rating, maybe leave a review. That then impacts how the show appears within the search. And already Mike we've started to see a huge change in the reach haven't we, when we've got listeners such as Bettina and such as some of our other listeners with pretty unusual user handles, once we started to see and receive those, the spread around the world was definitely significant.
So listeners are, um, You know, all I ask of you is please help us spread the moonshots [00:12:00] message, help us spread the learning out loud approach to listeners from around the world, by leaving us a rating and review in your podcasting app of choice. Yeah, we would really appreciate that. Um, Tear into that, that app, just give us a thumbs up or leave a review you in the Apple podcast or because it really, it just helps more people discover the show.
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Dot IO. But I think now it is time Mark, that we go into the world of mindset. And the key thing here that I think is so signature of Christine Lagarde is she is such an open minded person. She is. So what we [00:13:00] would say. Curious as to what the world can be and how to bring people along for the ride. So let's go to this second clip, which is all about how we might think about risk and how we can learn in the process of taking risk.
My parents let me do crazy things when I was much younger. And in retrospect, you know, and I discussed that with my mother before she passed. I said, how could you do that? And she said, well, we trusted you. We thought you would get you, you, you would manage. I mean, I don't want to go through the list of crazy things that she and my parents let me do, but yes, um,
hitchhiking and. Going across France on the back of a motorcyclist that I had no idea who he was. And what kind of motorcycle at the age of 15? Uh, I mean those kinds of [00:14:00] things. So, um, going across the United States on Greyhound buses back and forth, and she, at the age of 19, all by myself, uh, eating vegetarian, canned food all the way, um, without cell phones and none of that stuff.
Um, so I think that that gives you the sort of strength later on to say, okay, I'll take the risk. What, you know, what is there to lose? And I might have the strength to actually overcome that and learn in the process. Um, but so when I was, when I was appointed from being a practicing attorney to being chairman of Baker McKenzie, I just had to work with the team and learn as much as I could from them.
And, and, uh, and, and move on this. Mike is now one of my favorite clips that I think we've dug into on moonshots. Oh, that's big. Okay. Tell us how, tell us, I'm going to tell [00:15:00] you why, because what I'm interpreting and hearing and how it's inspiring me to, um, Uh, you know, think about how I take risks and how I learn.
It's, it's trusting in yourself. It's trusting in yourself to survive and also to Excel by taking that challenge by taking that risk. And you know, maybe a lot of our listeners have done this sort of thing as Christine's referencing getting on the back of a motorbike or doing something that's a little bit maybe physical or maybe even dangerous, but whatever it might be, it's going to be.
Uh, a challenge. Sometimes it's fun. Sometimes it's not fun, but regardless of the experience at the time, I think that having that opportunity to learn and get strength from does make a difference down the line. You know, for me, whenever I've done something that really challenges me because I'm curious, let's say a training for a triathlon.
I'm going to [00:16:00] do it. Not because I'm necessarily going to win. Not necessarily because I want to prove to anybody that I'm fit or that I can do it. I'll do it because it's a new experience. I'll do it because it's a little bit, Ooh, I kind of, haven't done this before. I wonder how I'll do. Yeah. It's going to be uncomfortable, maybe swimming until I feel too tired or cycling in a way that, you know, I feel a bit nervous doing this, but through the experience and exposure to those moments throughout that experience and that journey.
You do get stronger, you do feel more comfortable. And what I really believe, uh, at least for myself as I hear that clip with Christine and our curiosity is building the trust in yourself to respond. Yeah. Totally. And you can hear that she already has a belief that in herself, because of those experiences, Mark, she has this true belief that I have the strength to [00:17:00] overcome.
Whatever comes my way. And what's interesting is I think there's a real passion amongst our favorites, moonshot, entrepreneurs, and innovators is that they think about risk differently. I think that on average, We have the habit of being a little bit. Dreading of taking risk. We almost get out of the present and already imagine, Oh, this might not work out.
How embarrassing would that be? Or maybe there is some element of danger to it or whatever. And what's really interesting by having this curious mindset and doing all sorts of lots of, uh, stretch activities. Um, they get her out of her comfort zone. She. Ironically is comfortable being out of her comfort zone.
And that is very similar. Think about Richard Branson, thinking about so [00:18:00] many of the other, um, people like how comfortable Elon Musk is doing remarkably innovative things yet. He seems quite matter of fact about it in many, many ways. And you sense that these people. Have really chosen to expose themselves to new things and to, you know, th they're embracing the discomfort.
That was something that we got from Joe Rogan. And if you do that, you sort of learn the pattern that I have the strength to overcome. So like, they, you can see Christine is just sitting there saying, bring it on. What are you, right. Yeah. What have you got? Because I know that I'm going to respond in the correct way.
Yeah. Maybe it'll be a challenge. But I'm going to embrace it. And this next clip, Mike, I think is a perfect, a two hander for that previous clip about curiosity. And this is what else provides the foundation as well as the. Grounding for [00:19:00] Christine, as she's perhaps thinking about these, these challenges or these moments of risk taking, and this is a fantastic quote.
I'm not going to spoil it. I'm just going to launch straight in this next clip we've got from Christine is all about standing your ground. I'm going to let you say this in French. You've referred to this, the sort of bite the bullet and keep smiling. You say it, um, it's great to teeth and a smile, grit, your teeth smile.
So that's a phrase I believe you learned during synchronized swimming, a sport that you took up, which is interestingly nephew took it up in 1968 when the schools were shut down over a student protests. Right. Um, but you went into synchronized swimming. Um, you've also said that as a woman, you have to elbow your way in.
What's an example in recent years, or especially at the IMF where you've had to apply both of those or either of those precepts? No, I'm not sure. I would say elbow your way in, because in that there is something of, you know, sort of push [00:20:00] people out of your way. I think you can very much, uh, progress and, and make your way as Holton would say in fuck him.
If you're a member, um, for those who don't speak Latin on a day-to-day basis, it's, you know, I'll find my way and if I don't find it, I will make it. So I think you can actually make your way. You can, you can, um, follow your destiny without necessarily being aggressive without pushing people. You can, you can let other people progress as well along the way, but you should not shy away from the things that you are.
You feel strongly about, and I'll give you an example. When we had, um, you know, we had to deal with Greece, uh, quite a lot in the last few years. And two years ago, we had great difficulties about, you know, what was the next step and was the debt sustainable or not. And over what period of time would it become sustainable?
[00:21:00] And there was a lot of, um, A lot of disagreement, a lot of controversy, a lot of political ganging, uh, on, on that particular topic. But I knew we were right. I knew we had checked the numbers times and again, and I knew that the debt sustainability analysis that we were producing was sound solid and, and.
And it was a good principle on which to build, to help that country restore it, the situation. So I stood my ground and when, uh, Angela Merkel said, Oh Christine, how can you be so certain, a debt sustainability analysis is on your debt, sustainability analysis after all. And I said, yeah, but that's why you want to anchor everything you do.
And if you throw, you know, zillion in a country, you want to have a good anchoring point. So. That to me was a bit of a defining moment when we stood our ground. Other members of the Troika were not [00:22:00] necessarily as convinced as we were, but it wasn't elbowing my way. We're saying we've done it. We've reviewed it.
It's it's. Solid in terms of analysis and we have to build around it. She stood her ground because she knew, uh, stuff. Didn't she, I mean, that, that was very clear. They had done the work, um, so that the, the risks that others perceived wasn't actually the risk. She was curious and investigative, but more than anything, once she had that insight, Mark.
Once they had this belief, she stood for it, but I, I like the nuance that she, she said that she's like, no, no sharp elbows here. This is all about getting people on the same page. And I think that, you know, we touched a little bit on her boldness and her courageousness and her capacity to stand her ground.
I mean, that's a big part, but I think what we've also got a lot to learn, [00:23:00] uh, from. Christine about is, uh, alignment, getting stakeholders on the same page. And of course, That moment she's referring to was very controversial because the Greeks were talking about let's pull out of the European union. They had defaulted on debt several times.
It was really, I mean, this was big stuff and it was, it was happening. It was going down and she had the capacity to say, Nope, We did the work and she was prepared to stand for, stand for what she believed in to stand her ground, but she did. So without, you know, getting into the sharp elbows and the fisticuffs that, um, that can happen around those sorts of tables.
I think that's very informative on how she has been successful. What do you think Mark? They just demonstrate the people first approach. Doesn't it. So rather than coming in as a bulldozer, And throwing your elbows around to get in. [00:24:00] This is a wonderful story that demonstrates the power of taking time to, uh, discuss and communicate with the team around you and say, okay, well, look, we hear you.
I get your point of view. I can understand it. And here's how we can move forward and, you know, pull back to the, uh, original, uh, Quote that the interviewer and Christine mentioned in that clip, this grit, your teeth and smile. I think that's a great two hander for that. The story about Greece, because this smiling bit is again, a really valuable moment.
Don't go in an aggressive, frustrated instead thing. Okay. Well, that's fine. I'm going to stand my ground, but I'm going to do it in a pleasant way. I'm going to smile. I'm going to appreciate what they're saying and we can collaborate to get to that common goal. And what a, what a fantastic way of seeing how Christine has learned from her past, right?
You know, this, this curiousness as well as [00:25:00] this, uh, pretty varied experience with which involves synchronized swimming. I mean, is there anything Christine hasn't done? Oh my gosh. Motorcycles across France at the age of 15 synchronized swimming in the sixties late, nobody was doing synchronized or anything then.
Already, this is like a, like a, just in these references. What we're starting to pick up is like, go out, be curious about what the world has to offer, go out and try new things. I mean, what a call to action already? Are we getting from Christine? Like try something new, try something new and have the experience with good humor, because you are, you are gonna learn from it and you can bring that into your business.
And that's certainly something that I think. Has benefited the way that I personally do business. And that's going through this journey of learning out loud with yourself and these innovators each week, I'll pick up new techniques, new lessons from Christine [00:26:00] and Tom Brady and Jeff Bezos Cenac or the 170 16 other shows that we've done.
And, and there is that element that you can, you can take every single time. And try to improve. And, and this concept to, uh, people I think is, is definitely coming through in a number of our innovators and a number of the lessons that have helped them Excel. I agree. I agree. And I think what we're now starting to see is a picture of who's somebody who's so totally engaged with the world.
Who's curious. Who's daring. And when challenge starts to come her way, Christina is like, baby. Uh, I'm not going to let this get the better of me. If there's a wall, I'll go round it. If someone disagrees with me, I'm not going to collapse like a house of cards. I'm going to stand my ground because I've done the work.
And I think this is really [00:27:00] good for all of us. Cause we're all competing for ideas at work. It's it? That's all business is the modern digital age. It's about ideas and standing up for your rights. Ideas can only happen if you've done the work right. Totally as if you've done the work you've put in the hard yards you've practiced and you're constantly evolving.
Like Tom Brady would say, you're constantly evolving to be the best version of yourself and the best version that your team deserve, then you will guard and succeed. And again, I think that's coming through in a lot of Christine's work, particularly when you reference where she's come from and her past.
Yeah. Synchronized swimming in the sixties. Mark, she's breaking new ground, not just in finance, but synchronized smearing, a lesson, maybe you and I should get into synchronized swimming video. You have to wear those funny nose plugs and everything. Yeah. They listened before we [00:28:00] break down some of the behaviors and tactics habits.
Um, that Christine has, I think it's a great time just to, to reflect on what we've got, which is, you know, dare to be bold and courageous because, Hey, come on. Like, what's the other alternative here? We're talking about how, how bad can it be? And you know, what, if something, you know, it doesn't work out. What did she say?
She said bounce back. Isn't it? Yep. Bounce back. Keep on going. Get yourself up. Dust yourself off. Because you cannot be able to continue. Yeah. Yeah. Now listen, um, I don't know whether people have to grit their teeth when they do this, but to all of our listeners, I really want to thank them for sending us all the feedback that we've been getting with Guinea, getting a ton of suggestions on new show ideas, what you love the most.
And, uh, Mark. If someone who's listening right now wants to send us some feedback. Where, where do they go to do that? Where could they make a [00:29:00] suggestion? If, if they love Christine Liga, maybe people want us to do a study on Angela Merkel. I mean, how can they tell us where can they go? As you can pop along over to www.moonshots.io, not only will you find an opportunity to get in touch with us via our feedback form at the top of the screen.
But you can also listen to our show catalog of 117 shows. You can check it our mantras. Our transcripts and a number of showed documents that also add a little bit of something else into some of the lessons and engines that we've learned and frameworks that we found through covering a lot of these innovators alongside that you can also get in touch with us via hello@moonshots.io, as well as reach out through a number of social channels.
And I do just want to give a shout out to, uh, Andrew Wood Z from London. You got in touch and said that he loves the learning out loud concept of the show. David Goggins. Wow. [00:30:00] It's amazing how popular Dogons has been. What do you think the appeal of a David Goggins is? I think it's the resilience, but also the power that he kind of showed himself.
You know, if you remember the David Goldman show, he. Was not always the fittest individual, but what he did have a capacity for was well to put it bluntly pain. He has this capacity and almost this drive to go out and repeat. Significant races, you know, he's, he's just about to do his four by four by 48, uh, campaign that I think in fact, Mike starts this Friday, um, four miles, every four hours for 48 hours.
I'm unfortunately, probably not going to take part in that little too brutal for me, but I think is attractive about David Goggins. Is this. This raw power that exists within his own mindset. Yes. Yes. And I can tell you, what's also something cool. I wanted to share with you [00:31:00] is, um, you know, we, we've been talking of recent times about all the new listeners that have been joining us from Lithuania, Bulgaria, and so forth.
We do want to welcome you to our community of folks who are learning out loud and having adventures in innovation. Um, but Mark, I. And wanted to share with you. I was just looking in the data, just preparing for the show and, uh, I think, well, we have awoken the Scandinavian and Nordic model because I can see that Sweden.
Yeah. And, and the, and the Danes they have, um, they have kind of come charging into our community, rocketing us up the charts. So we do want to welcome. The Swedes and the Danes and the no, or the folks from Norway who are jumping into the show welcome. Um, it's really wonderful to see all these wonderful learners who want to become really the best version of themselves.
Joining us here, uh, in the [00:32:00] moon shots podcast to thank you and welcome. So for all of that hour trans continental listeners, it is time for us to dig into the second. Chapter of our Christine legato story. And it starts with the actions and the behaviors that you can take to be both bold and curious. And this next clip where you have is all about not running away from the scary thing, but embracing it.
And that thing that we're going to hear from Christine Legon is risk. When the situation is difficult when the, when it's really challenging where the, when the financial situation is really poor, when budgets have been blown, then there are opportunities for women. Uh, and I've always encouraged women to actually say yes in those circumstances, because first of all, you take a limited risk.
Because if, if the [00:33:00] situation is really rock bottom, you're not going to go further down so you can only move it up. And there are very few men to actually take those jobs because they think that they're going to be compromised and they're not going to be associated with success, which I think is a wrong approach, but that's when you have to greet your teeth, smile and continue the job and prove yourself.
And yeah. And not, you know, just pick up the pieces and then Hanover, uh, to, uh, to, you know, the man who is going to come along and say, okay, it's easy and I can do it. No, we have to just hang in there. Just hang in that. Just say yes, this, this is so real. Isn't it, Mike, you know, when you think about your, your email inbox or you open up the office and find a problem or a challenge of the desk, Anything on, uh, this is not how have I inherited this?
Why have I received this? You know, just, just embracing it, just take it and saying, I'm going to go out and give this a go, is what [00:34:00] Christine's saying here. And what I'd really, really like is this concept of embracing that, you know, kind of falling in love with it. It's very much where Ron holiday was talking to us and the Graham holiday series about seeing those.
Um, obstacles as opportunities and instead, you know, rewiring your mind, that's how you can be a bold as well as, as well as curious when confronting those risks, this totally kind of builds on what we said earlier around curiosity. This is like, don't be scared of adversity. What she was really pointing out there is like, see adversity as opportunity.
And the great news about that is it's total mindset. And you can say yes, even when situation is not great, you can still say yes. Um, and it connects us to a really powerful idea that we're going to cover in a few show when we do Del Carnegie, which is a really important, uh, [00:35:00] opportunity for growth is just say to yourself, when in adversity is to say.
And to practice and explore the idea of what is the worst that can happen. Because too often, when things look a bit ugly, we run for the Hills, natural. It's our fight or flight instincts kicking in. But if you know that if you become aware of those, you can actually fall in love with risk taking by saying, look, what's the worst can happen here.
What Christine was teaching us is when the situation's really bad, she's like, well, how much worse can it get? However, you could come in. With a curious mind with a. Daring to challenge and change the status quo. And you might be able to have great impact because Hey, things were pretty bad. So like anything is better than this.
Right. And it's so powerful because I also learned this from my partner in quality assurance. he has [00:36:00] this amazing capacity to minimize risk in his mindset and do bold and courageous. Things. And it's what I respect about him so much. And what you see in Christine ligate is exactly the same thing. She's like risk what risk.
And you can see that by just not allowing risk, uh, in our careers and in our work to stop us from seeing opportunity. And I think that's so powerful because if you refer to what she talked about with grease, Hey, Things aren't totally fixed, but they're way better now. And this was only in recent memory.
I mean, we're not talking about the seventies that, that, that a huge debacle with, uh, green Greece and debt, you know, that's in, in recent times yet, things are so much better. She was able to fall in love with that risk. She did the work, she stood her ground and things have improved. I mean, for me, that's everything coming full circle with Christine.
The God is [00:37:00] pretty impressive. Isn't it? Yeah, what really stands out to me as you were talking, as well as that clip from Christine is the ability to see short versus long-term. And this is something that we've discussed on the show for, and for me, when I'm encountering a challenge, a risk, I only see in the short term, I only see the.
What am I going to do right now? Or this is going to be what what's, what's going to happen later today, maybe tomorrow what's going to happen in the immediate vicinity around me. And I lose sight of that long-term piece, which I think is the, uh, the opportunity, you know, the opportunity might come later through experience, maybe through the benefit of launching the product or, or peace project, whatever it might be, or having that uncomfortable conversation.
Whereas in the short term that risk that's that's I think what [00:38:00] triggers the fight or flight experience that a lot of us might, might see because you're naturally almost trained as we've talked about before Mike to react and get out of the way. And I think that's a short term move isn't it? As opposed to the long-term site.
And is it wonderful that only here on the moonshots podcast, we can take Joe Rogan. And Christine Lagarde and find commonality. I mean, both, both of them are basically saying embrace discomfort, embrace challenge, um, be excited about the opportunity to stretch, to grow. Um, and that's exactly what both of them are teaching us.
Isn't it. Yeah. Yeah. There's that consistent thread that inspired or should inspire us to go out and embrace that. I mean, look, I'm going to be honest, Mike, it's still something I'm working on, but it's something I try and tackle every single day. Yeah. Yeah. [00:39:00] Very, very powerful stuff. Now we're going to just double down on Christine legged, president of the European central bank.
What we are going to do now is explore this other dimension of what she does so well. Which is bringing people together, creating vision. I mean, you know, it's not only talking the talk, but walking the walk. So let's have a listen now to how Christine Lagarde can teach us about leading by example. I was chairman of Baker McKenzie, which is a very large law firm.
Um, and I was very engaged in changing the whole structure of the firm to make it, um, More risk adverse. Actually, it was going against the culture of the institution. And I had spent the whole year together with the executive committee trying to engage the partners in the process and to convince them that that was the way to go on the day of the annual partners meeting.
On the key day, we missed the qualified majority [00:40:00] by 20 votes. That night, a lot of the old guard partners, all males came to me and said, well, the crowd overnight twist their arm. You'll get it tomorrow. And I thought about it and I consulted with the team because I'm, you know, I'm a team person and we decided not to do that.
We decided to go against conventional wisdom to go against the culture of the firm to go against the old guard. And the following morning, I turned up and I said, we've heard you 20 of you are not convinced that would have carried the day. That's fine. We'll come back next year. And we will spend the entire year convincing you that that's the way to go.
We did that. And the end of that year, we got a 96% majority. I mean, what, what a, an honest story then, like, yeah. You know, again, leadership, not by elbows, not by aggression or manipulation, but by setting the right example with your team. And doing the [00:41:00] hard yards doing the hard work. Yeah. You know, the interesting thing here just as a bit of a tangent is much like Michelle Obama, very capable of admitting mistakes or things that didn't quite work out.
I mean, for someone who seems so capable almost, you know, as a leader, you know, bold in thought. You know, collaborative in action. Um, it's really such a, she is such a complete leader, but she's like, Oh, you know, I, I kind of stuffed it up at Baker McKenzie and had to come back again next year, but she was, I really do.
I think it makes us all, uh, a little bit easier when, um, We realized, well, geez, if, if it was tough for Michelle Obama and Christine Lagarde, then, okay. So it's not so strange that maybe I'm experiencing some challenge right now. Right. I find that quite helpful. I think you're right. The, the, the, the honesty that comes through both of those individuals does inspire me as well, [00:42:00] because once you can admit to yourself, okay, I'm having a bit of a struggle here or, okay.
I'm having, you know, it may be a problem over there that, that I could do some help with. If you can admit that to yourself, you're more likely to ask for help, or you're more likely to seek out a solution to improve your. Uh, maybe it's attitude or even behavior, you know, as a leader, you want to be the, the Arab point don't you, you know, and what Christine's doing a wonderful job of in that clip is saying, okay, well, I could show my team that I can use my elbows or my fists and my words and so on to get what I want, but actually that's not the right example to inspire those around me.
I need to show them the honesty. Leading by example. Yeah. So what's quite interesting in the things that she does as you know, to be bold and creators to create teams is it really does sound like she has, um, a higher level of [00:43:00] comfort with taking risks and accepting challenge. And her first step in that journey is leading by example.
And, uh, we heard that earlier as well. She does the work so she can, you know, uh, stand her ground, you know, to find her way, but she's got more to teach us. Doesn't she? Yeah. Clip is, is a pretty, well-known one, Christine, I think because it's a great example. Again, a similar one to, uh, connect us with Joe Rogan and some of the other moonshot innovators we've covered in the past.
Mike. This next clip from Christine again, inspiring us and telling us how to practically be bold and curious in our work is to think about resilience as well as the need to try and improve ourselves day to day, whether you're a leader or a team player. And this next clip from Christina is telling us to not let the bastards get you down.
Well, there's one, that one, uh, encouragement that I was given one's by my [00:44:00] American father. It's the family that I stayed with when I was 17. And, uh, whenever I had tough times, he would send me a little note or give me a call and he would say, don't let the bastards get you. And I know this is not very polite.
This is not very proper language, but don't let the bastards get you means. Hang on with the work that you're doing. And don't give up, stand up. Now I have a theory that women are generally given space and appointed to jobs. When the situation is tough in times of crisis, um, women eventually are called upon to, you know, sort out the mess, uh, face the difficulty shoes and, uh, be completely focused on restoring.
The situation as a leader of institution, whether it's the IMF, whether it was the, um, [00:45:00] Becca McKenzie as an international law firm or the ministry of finance of France. I learned every day. And I learned in, in, uh, in a two-way street, if you will, um, I learned that you can constantly improve and that you should not be shy about your views.
And about the direction that you believe is right. Don't let them get you Mark. That was some pretty strong convicted thinking. I mean, what a story of being resilient, I just want to like point out to you and to our listeners, Mark. I mean, she's a woman in a boys club. She's in finance and she's trying to pull together all the constituents of the European central bank.
I think she needs a lot of resilience. Don't you? A [00:46:00] lot of resilience, but also again, this, uh, honesty, uh, and this, this curiosity that we've, we've heard from Christina number of clips, it comes through again, you know, we're being reminded from Christine to always be learning. Which again was a consistent thread from Tom Brady and some of our other innovators.
Isn't it wonderful to hear from Christine saying, look, I was in this. Incredible position. Um, it was challenging and the way that I coped with it, the way that I actively, uh, behaved at day was to accept that I will learn as I go as well as from my previous experience. Yeah. Very, very good, um, uh, advice here and resilience.
And I, I wanted to unpack it a little bit in Oscar ourselves. How do we do it? And I wanted to try and pitch to you, Mark. The sort of things that I do in my mind when I'm on a long journey to achieve [00:47:00] something and I'm facing adversity and challenge, let's see if we can sort of. Uh, if I can pitch this to you and see if you can improve it somewhat.
My thing is I stumbled across this thought on resilience, very similar to what Christine, the guy was saying. They don't let the bastards get you. And it kind of goes like this, like, so let's say you've made a very conscious decision for a long-term objective, which is really part of your life's purpose.
So you start you're full of it's the hero's journey. You start with all this enthusiasm and then reality sets in and you do weeks. You do mans, maybe you do years of work and you're not really seeing the results and you start to go, why am I doing this again? Right. You know that moment, Mark? Yeah, I think, uh, I think it, us and our listeners can probably all testify to that.
Come on, buddy. What a challenge? You know, and you start to wonder like, Oh, well I do really want this, but geez, [00:48:00] don't want to miss much. It is the thing. There's this great thinking around resilience is like one is like, you know, don't let the bastards get you, which is like, don't fall victim to other people on the sidelines, you know, let's think totally Brenae Brown.
Let's step into the arena. That's number one. But number two is every time you face these. Challenges, which are going to call upon every ounce of your resilience. There's this really powerful thinking that I am totally stealing, but I, I really think it's, it's helpful, which is okay. If you know, you're doing something challenging, something ambitious and brave and new, you know, of course it's not going to be easy, so you can become a little bit comfortable knowing, well, It's a bit like a gym workout.
If it's hurting a little bit, I mean, not killing you, but if it's hurting them, you know, your arms are aching. The legs are really sore. Well, [00:49:00] physically we know that muscles when they're sore, they're actually growing, right. So when you're in these moments, you can say, Oh, I know it's really tough, but I'm actually growing right now.
But here's the other thing, if you need a little bit more of psychology on the other side of things is here's what I do. I say to myself, well, I've spent all this time till now. I've invested so much time and I still really care about and want to, I have the will, like, I really want this objective. How could I possibly stop now?
Because I've invested all this time and effort, which means. Every day, I'm a bit closer to the outcome. So I would be crazy to stop now because I've invested so much. And it means because I've invested so much that I know I must be getting close and every day I stick with it means I'm going to be, it's [00:50:00] a funny way thing.
I'm going to be the last man standing, because if you think about podcasting, for example, way back in the day, When moonshot started, we would do the show and we would like maybe get 50, maybe a hundred listeners. But by keeping going, knowing that we've invested so much to, to build a format, to build a show, to start building a little community, you wake up one day and you have 20, 30,000 listeners.
And then you're like, how can you stop now? Because maybe there's 35,036 and beyond there's more people we can share this with. So whatever our goal, objective, whatever the thing we're fighting for. See every day that you give it as an investment. That means that you're just that little bit closer. And if you stop it now, then you're throwing away that investment.
And when you think [00:51:00] about it like that, it helps you go on. There's no way I can stop now. Like I'm doubling down and it's a bit different too. Like very positive psychology of, I believe in this, I want this as my purpose. And that all matters. All I'm saying is this type of thinking. When you're in the Valley of darkness helps you avoid the Boston's getting you right as Christina gods say, when you think of everything you've invested means this is a reason to continue to fight for what you believe in what you think matters.
If you want to have impact in the world, you must keep going. Don't throw away the investment. Anyway, that's my pitch to you. My, what do you, what do you think you're in the Valley of darkness? If you, can you see that thinking, helping? I mean, can we, can we make that better? Well, I think what I, what I really, you know, gather and what inspires me from, from what we were just saying is the long-term versus [00:52:00] short-term vision, you know, and I'm reminded of, uh, Brenae Brown's gifts of imperfection actually.
Because in that book, you know, Bernie talks about the fact that we were all led to believe that that life is perfect and we can lead these perfect lives and look perfect and so on. But actually what she calls out is embrace the fact that it's not perfect and. And that's what I'm seeing here. You know, if you embrace the fact that it's not perfect and you change the way that you interpret these speed bumps or these valleys of darkness that we experience, and then you say, okay, well, you know what?
As long as I embrace those gifts, I can see the value of what I've done to date. I can see the value of the journey that I've taken. And to your point, Mike, that's the time investment, isn't it? The time I've invested in. Learning these skills, or maybe it's traveling abroad or whatever it might be. I've put in that time.
And I want [00:53:00] to continue that I don't want to react in a short-term way that sees me, throw my hands and give up. That's sort ultimately the long-term benefit. That's where that opportunity comes from. Isn't it. Yeah. So, so that's the short versus long-term thinking puts your challenge into some context.
Cause I think, you know, one of the things definitely I've learned about. Moments in my life where I've been on a mission and I've stopped and I've given up is I kind of let the bastards get me and I'm not talking about an individual, but what I'm really talking about there is the, when you're in that moment and things aren't working, I interpreted this as being a message that this is not meant to be right.
However, What we can learn from Christine. And the guide is you need to be resilient. You need to play [00:54:00] the long game. You need to do the work and stand your ground. And actually once you recognize nice that you're at that crossroads, and it's merely an opportunity for you to double down rather than the look it's just not working.
Right. I think if I learned something from all the things that I gave up on. I could maybe have done some really good things with all sorts of different practices, both with music and sports and work. But when I have walked away, the reflection that I have is I kind of let the, the, the seeds of doubt be sowing.
However, what was learning from Christine Lagarde is don't give into those. Play the long game don't give up, stand up. She said, you know, I think that's a really powerful way to build that resilience and to, to be a bit more like Teflon when the challenge comes, what do you think? Yeah, [00:55:00] exactly. Be the Teflon B you know, you can still be flexible and still aspire to, to change and learn and improve and evolve.
But B. Solid stand your ground. Be bold. That's I mean, Christine just keeps them coming up with these, with these great lessons. Doesn't she? She did. I mean, and in the end at Baker McKenzie, she said, don't worry, I'll be back next year. And then he got another music. Yeah. Gimme, gimme, gimme, and I'll come back and I'll I'll I'll do the work better.
I'll I'll prove to you guys what you're not seeing right now. I'll communicate that a little bit harder. And so all of this, this boldness, this courageous, this resilience takes place within a team setting. I mean, as Patrick Lencioni, uh, would say it's a team sport. Right. Doing brave and audacious things, creating impact in the world.
And this last and final clip Mark that we have to share with our listeners brings it all together in terms of [00:56:00] understanding that we're not solo lone wolfs in the world, but we truly are. Whether we look at our personal or professionalize, we're all part of a team. So let's turn to Christine Liga just one last time and hear her thoughts.
On teamwork and how to listen to your team mates as you leave the IMF and prepare for the ECB. What is one word of advice you'll take with you? I think I would start with teamwork. This is something which I believe as, as always helped me. Harness the consensus and, uh, take any institution that I have led, uh, further and forward.
Um, it did help enormously at the IMF and you're only strong and convincing if you are strong at home. So making sure that we are a team that we disagree amongst ourselves, and then. Once the disagreement is settled. [00:57:00] Once there is a common line that we all move together. I think that that has a huge impact.
So teamwork would be my, my first, I think the, the second one that I would take away is learn how to listen. And that is certainly something that has served me well, and that has served and I hope will continue to serve the IMF will listen to the policymakers. Listen to their hardship, which is always when the IMF got involved, but listen to the people as well, and try to understand multiple voices, including the unusual and unexpected.
So this is what communication to, to, to make people feel like you're closer to them or negotiation actually to find consensus, you know, it's first of all, uh, listen enough so that you can put yourself in the other person's shoes. I think it's always a healthy principle in either establishing relationship in negotiating, in trying to help in one way or the [00:58:00] other, listen enough to put yourself in the other person's shoes.
And then you understand her or his perspective, their perspective, uh, what they, what, where they can move, where they can't move, uh, what difficulty they're facing. So it's, it's not just for communication process at all. It's really to, um, To be able to, to establish that is such a wonderful way of bringing the show around.
Is it Mike Christine's parting advice for us today in episode one, one 17, sorry, 170. It's all about this, this importance on people. And what I love is the. Connection Mike, that we're seeing with Patrick Lencioni and his, his works on collaboration and teamwork. And what Christine's saying here, which is embrace the moments when your teammates disagree with you, because the idea or solution or whatever it might be, [00:59:00] it will evolve and change and be better because of it.
Yeah. Totally. And what's so interesting for me is the way Christine Lagarde demonstrates to us the way that you can be bold. Let me even go as far as saying tough but empathetic at the same time, she's bold in her convictions, but collaborative and empathetic in her approach. And they're not often common partners.
Those two thoughts are they. No, I think you're right. That there is a little bit of a, I suppose, a, uh, a disregard between the two. Isn't it. It's very, it's very powerful to see that you can be strong and soft. At the same time. It's great to see that you can be audacious, take risks, be curious, but hear people out, even the strange and [01:00:00] unusual voices as Christine said, like that's, that is such a, like a humble servant leadership style, but yet she has command of so many and.
Budgets beyond our comprehension. I think this, this is, um, like what a great way to, to wrap up the show and a dare. I asked my classic question, Mike, what's the one big takeaway for you having now seen a spectrum of insights and ideas from Christine Lagarde. It's actually a really tough one today. You know, I think we've got so much from Christine here.
Somebody that you would, you know, perhaps not expect to learn so much from an innovation perspective. It just goes to show that any individual, when they've got into, um, you know, perhaps a position of leadership and so on would have gone through those elements of risk and the requirements for resilience for me though, [01:01:00] as I mentioned, when we listened to it, that story about the curiosity and that being a fuel for her later.
You know, trying something when she was perhaps younger and giving her that experience later in life is a perfect metaphor for this short versus long-term discomfort versus opportunity piece. So for me, that's, that's the one I'm walking away with. Yeah. I mean, just, um, there you're right. There's so much to take from this.
And once again, you know, One of these innovators has brought to us something a little new and unique and I'd have to agree. I think that that curiosity angle is, um, is really unique in her really sharing how, how to do it and, and to, you know, re rethink and reimagine risk, which is very, very powerful.
Isn't it? Yeah, it is. And it's something that we can all continue to learn from each day. But today I hope [01:02:00] us and our listeners are getting that little bit of extra from Christine. Yes. More than a little bit of extra Mark. I think there was a super size me serving of extra day, but I want to thank you, Mark.
Thank you. For, uh, unpacking the, thinking, the ideas and the lessons from Christine Lagarde. And thank you to you. All of our listeners. Yes. We're welcoming both Norway, Denmark, and Sweden into the family. Hello and welcome. And we want to thank you for joining us in this journey into the world of Christine Nygaard.
Today. And this journey was about curiosity, courage, and the ability to collaborate and the way she did it, the way she told us today is redefining risk. I mean, what's the worst can happen. She asked us, she invited us, invited us. Maybe she employed us to go out into the world. To be curious. And when those little bumps come along, you pick yourself up, you bounce [01:03:00] back.
And the best thing you can do is to do your work, know your convictions, stand your ground. These are the ways and the means of success through the world of Christine Lagarde. And the most important behaviors you can do is fall in love with risk-taking don't run away. Embrace it run towards risk lead by action sample.
And in the Valley of darkness, when old, the doubt surrounds you. Yes, moonshot is when the doubt is there in the Valley of darkness. When you believe all hope is gone, remember don't let the bastards get you. Don't give up as Christine, the guy would say, yeah, Don't give up, you stand up because you can go and do this, not only by yourself, but with your team.
And that starts with listening. So there you have it. That's another episode of the moonshots podcast.