tim o'reilly
episode 10
Broadcast date: October 16 2017
The Moonshots Podcast decodes a grandmaster of the Internet - Tim O'Reilly. Wrap your mind around his mental models and ideas as leading publisher, founder and all-round tech guru.
BOOKS MENTIONED IN THE sHOW
WTF?: What's the Future and Why It's Up to Us
by Tim O'Reilly
TIM O'REILLY INTERVIEWS
Don't Be Awful: Tim O’Reilly and Sarah Lacy
PandoDaily
Published on Mar 7, 2016
Tim O'Reilly: Create More Value Than You Capture
Stanford eCorner
Published on Mar 13, 2013
Code for America:
What if all government services were this good?
Books
O'Reilly Media
Published by O'Reilly Media
Technology and business training, knowledge, and insight, delivered by experts and innovators
Tim O'Reilly
TRANSCRIPT
Welcome to the moonshots podcast. It's Friday, October 13, 2017. And we are at the almighty episode 10. Hello everybody. I am. Your cohost might pass. And as usual I'm joined by the one and only. Chad Owen 10 Mike. I, I didn't think we would make it, but here we are. I know. Did you bring the champagne and the balloons?
Cause I feel like we need a potty right now. Well, have a beer, you have a, you have a espresso or a coffee. That's right. We need to time zone, adjust out our celebrations. And uh, it's certainly something to celebrate this show because we are after out. Adventure into the world of creativity, of music, of football coaches.
We are taking a right hand, turn being way back deep into the world of technology of computers, of open source. And I think we have one of the most heavy weights gurus to decode today. So yeah. Why don't you share with the, uh, Alice who we've got on today's show? Yeah, someone who has been around since the beginning of the internet and a vocal, you know, champion and kind of cataloger and decoder of the internet.
We are going to listen to and learn from Tim O'Reilly of O'Reilly media. So I don't know about you, Mike, but when I really got into computers, this was kind of in the nineties as a teenager. I don't know how many. Of those white books with, you know, the, uh, the ink print, uh, crazy animals. I had lying around on like HTML and Java and even like basic I had lying around.
I w I mean, what about you? Yeah, I have a very good memory of, uh, some of the books that Tim O'Reilly's company has published. I actually taught myself. How to develop it in Drupal and build websites using Drupa, which is sort of a more complex version of WordPress, if you will. And I actually use one of the books that he's company had published and literally read it from front to back and simultaneously built my own website.
Which was a quiz application. And, um, it was one of the most rewarding experiences, even though I'm not really a native coder, I have to confess I'm okay. I'm more of a man of the humanities than the zeros and ones, but all my gosh, it was, it was my great, uh, Riley publishing moment. I was ever so proud of myself.
What about, what about you? Which one was the favorite one? Of the, of Tim's books that you, uh, that you worked on? I think it was the basic book that was kind of my first exposure to the deep innards of computing. You did basic. Are you kidding me? Yeah. Yeah. I got, I got started at a pretty early age and it was essentially like a snake game, uh, you know, like on the old Nokia phones.
Yeah. Yeah. I remember snake and, um, Yeah. I mean the same thing, reading, reading the book from cover to cover, we're certainly dating ourselves in the fact that we learned computer computing from books, but I. I mean, and almost all of them were from O'Reilly publishing or, or, or, or Riley media, just for those of you that aren't familiar with with Tim and kind of his history with the internet, he published the whole internet user's guide and catalog, which was like literally a book on the internet.
It was a, I think it was not in the internet. It was about the internet. It's like a telephone book of the internet, right? 1992. Exactly. Exactly. This is, you know, kind of pre Yahoo, pre AltaVista. pre-Google all of that, where he listed all the interesting places on the internet. Um, and he would later convene many different people for many different reasons.
In the late nineties, he kind of organized the meeting where open source software, that idea was kind of born. Um, he organized that. Like, like, let's be clear. He brought everyone together to define open source. Like that's pretty major. When you think about how many companies such as Amazon and Google and Uber all use open source technologies in their platform.
Stacks. Yeah. And then after, after the.com bust, he organized the web 2.0 conference and again, gave birth to the idea of web 2.0. Um, which, you know, he saw as a way to revitalize the kind of dead or dying industry. Yeah. And it was scary days then. I don't know if you remember, but, uh, I had gone to Amsterdam to do an internet startup in 2000 and you know, the stock market crashed and by 2002, 2003, it was bleak.
Like all the internet projects had died up and gone away. And, uh, he singlehandedly not any books conference together, but it actually much like the term open source, the term web 2.0. I really captured the next five or six years of internet technologies really before mobile took over and he wants again was the created the instigator.
Of this idea, but the crazy thing is he's done so many other things. We have to talk a little, a little bit about his involvement in the maker movement. Uh, he was involved in the maker magazine. There's the maker fair, which are huge down there on the, on the West coast. And that's like a, I mean, that's a whole movement outside of.
Technology. And have you been to one of these maker fairs? They act crazy? No. No, but, uh, I must say that I'm very curious about dabbling in three D printing. Uh that's I think that's going to be my next money sink away, Cinco away. Um, he also has his own technology firm that does investments, alpha tech ventures.
And I won't bore you with the list of companies isn't that they've invested in, but it's the who's who, so, so let's just back up before we get to his latest projects, he wrote the first catalog of the internet. He was absolutely critical in the coining and the phrasing and the defining of open source software.
He then went on to define web tools zero. He, he instigated the maker movement. He had a successful ventures firm. Now, why don't you talk a little bit about what he's doing for, for redefining government in the information age, Tim's a very socially conscious person and he wants to leverage technology to make everyone's lives better.
And he sees one of the best ways to do that is in government. So he created code for America, which is very similar to the other blank for Americas, where it's a year long program. You know, devoted to bringing technology and innovative software in, into government and to civic service. Yeah. So, uh, you can, if you just Google code for America, you'll find that project, which is truly having impact on the way government operates in a digital world.
So here's an interesting question for you, Chad. Like if you were to. Try and think of who else can achieve sort of Grandmaster status when it comes to the internet and software and computing, like who's up there with Tim O'Reilly. Who do you put in the same? Well, he has an interesting vantage point.
Because he didn't found a technology company. He, I think you said it best, he's kind of like the, the, the, your favorite professor on the internet. Yeah. But I think he's been there since the beginning and has seen the founding of, uh, of Microsoft and the founding of Google and Yahoo. Um, I don't know. I don't know anyone else that I would maybe put.
But next to him, I think the only person that sits with him as in that Grandmaster status is Tim. Berners-Lee the founder, if you will. Creator of, of the internet. I think these two, almost Tim from the academic side and Tim from thought leadership side have created a framework in which Ilan. Jeff Bezos, Larry and Sergei.
Everyone has worked within a construct that I think these two you have done. So if there was ever somebody who can inspire us, if there was anything yeah. There's somebody that we can learn something from about the internet, which is really defining out the age in which we live. I think Tim, it truly is the article of.
Of Silicon Valley. And, uh, I think everyone should just, I feel like active listening as they tune into this podcast because there is the clips that we have are amazing. The clips are going to, uh, cover everything from some real insights he has on a product and technology level, right through to some of the, the values and that he will challenge all of us to uphold in the way in which we go about creating things in this world.
It's really exciting to, to, to listen and learn from someone who has this amazing using spectrum, right? From functional knowledge to really challenging us on that. How is should behave? It's all drawn from, from, from too the interviews that he did won with Sarah Lacey in last year and yeah, another one from, from Stanford in 2013.
So there's a lot. There's a lot of goodies to unpack in this show, but I wanted to give it back to you, Chad, you wanted to say something. Oh, just that I love how he is giving us in these clips that we're going to listen to lots of good practical advice, and it's all kind of towards what he sees as a greater good for kind of society and humanity.
And. I think these first clips really that up very well. And this is a theme that I've seen across everything that I've seen him in. You know, we, you and I looked at quite a few interviews to, to pull some clips from him. I think in every single one of them, he talks about this idea. Of delivering more value than you are capturing in anything and everything that you're doing, whether that's financially or with time and attention in everything.
And so here he is just summing up his kind of core tenant, which is, you know, contributing more than you are taking. In any ecosystem, if you take more out, then you put in the ecosystem, uh, eventually depletes. And I guess the, the phrasing actually originally came back in 2000, we were having a, uh, Riley, uh, uh, sort of a executive retreat.
And I, I laughingly said, you know, uh, you know, I've had more than one internet billionaire telling me that they started their company with an O'Reilly book. And, and I, and you know, basically they got billions of dollars and we got $35 and, and, uh, Brian Irwin, who was at the time, my VP of marketing. So we, I should be our slogan.
We create more value than we capture companies again. And again, make that mistake of trying to say, well, we just, you know, it's really the growth fallacy of Western civilization. Some sense that there is some ability to go on growing forever. Uh, and, and eventually you start consuming your children, you start consuming your ecosystem and then, and then innovation goes somewhere else.
Yeah. I mean, this, this is really powerful thinking because it really, I think is the divide between the industrial age and the information age in the industrial age, we were all about secrecy and silos and building walls. Whereas the recipe for success in the information age is all about collaboration and sharing.
And it's the classic thing of like, People not wanting to share their idea because someone will steal it. What he's talking about is get out there, create value, give stuff away, and just, don't take more back for yourself because what happens is you end up running out of space and you start, as he said, eating your children.
And I think that this. This idea of giving more than, than you take. Not only I think helps you on a, on a business level because, you know, giving them way ideas and inspiration only brings better things back to you. But I think surely that's where legacy is. It really begin is where you gave of yourself more than you took.
I mean, I think when Steve jobs talks about making a dent in the universe, I believe this is the formula in which to do that. What are you, what do you think Jen? Yeah, I think it's just a beautiful, a beautiful model. Like you said, across all areas, years of our lives, you know, we're seeing some very successful people today kind of realize this too late.
Like, Oh, you know, I've become really successful and rich and okay, now I have to give back or now I should give back, but I think what's been so fascinating learning from Tim is he embodied this from the very beginning, you know, he instigated the open source software, right. Which, which is contributing more than you are taking that.
That's. The that's a core value of open source, you know, contribution and open source software. And I just love how it has kind of the broader societal impact of, you know, he will, if you've listened to other interviews, go on long tangents about why all businesses, you know, and the Walmarts of the world and the apples of the world, not just tech companies really need to be, you know, giving more than they're taking.
So it's, it's, I think it's a really admirable value to hold and to, and to strive for. And he, he makes the case that it will just work out for you better in the end. Right? Because if you ask all your children and deplete the ecosystem, then you have nothing left left to give. He, he makes the case with Walmart specifically saying that they've driven wages down so much, and yet they employ so many people in this country and across the world that their employees can't.
Afford to shop at Walmart. So, you know, they're like cannibalizing their own sales by not paying their workforce. Exactly. And I think, I think what's interesting for me is, uh, starting to apply this thinking to ourselves and trying to inspire our listeners on how they can do it. And I think the first.
Thing I would recommend to everybody is I'm sure everyone listening to the show has an expertise in something. And I would encourage them. I would challenge them to say, when was the last time you just shared that knowledge in order to help other people? When was the last time you just gave away your secret sauce?
And just for other people too, to practice in this area. And I think you will be amazed that the more of your thinking and your ideas that you give away for free, the more people that quite ironically will ring you up and say, can you come and help me? And I will pay you to come and help me because this is really important to me.
So I wanna, I want to ask you Chad, like w what else would you think about when invited to, you know, Share more than you take. Where does this naturally take you to, like what comes to mind beyond the sharing of ideas? What other things would you recommend to our listeners? If they were going to share more value than they take?
I just think it's good business practice to always seek, you know, a 10 X return on whatever investment, you know, financial or time that you're being given, because. If you can do that, then you can charge 10 times more than anyone else. That's the business case. You know, if you can figure out how to do it, liver, that much more value you can, it will inevitably lead to you being able to charge more.
But I think on a kind of idea and creative level, just the more that we put our ideas out there and share them. And teach them the more that we can refine them and make them better because, because we have that feedback, loop, everything too close to the vest, then we're not able to get that feedback and, and hone our ideas.
And so I think that's another way that this giving more than you're taking is really beneficial. You know, I find myself in the trap of consuming a lot and I listened to a lot of podcasts and a lot of audio books. And I read a lot. I'm trying to flip that equation to where I'm sharing more of what I know and what I've learned.
To test it, I think so that I can get more by giving more. Yes. Yes. I would really encourage my experience. For example, in coaching rugby had where I have given endless hours of my time to. Several teams and lots of players has been deeply rewarding. Um, very intrinsic personal basis. It's been great for me.
It's been great to work with the athletes and I, I can't help, but think that creates some, you know, Goodwill, some sort of good karma. That I dunno, it just makes my life better. And, um, I can't, I imagine that it, that it has an impact on how good I feel in the office and when I'm working. And I'm sure that creates some little halo of goodness that that follows me.
But there's an interesting thought in this, which is that it's not just the sharing of ideas. It's not just talking about it. It's also getting. The job done. And this next clip is, uh, really speaks to this. This is, um, Tim talking a little, little bit about startups, often get things started, but there's more to it than that.
So let's have a listen to too Riley talking about going beyond just starting something. Well, I guess what I'm thinking is there are, I would guarantee you, there are a lot of startups that ad bottom are, wow, we can raise some money, we can build something and then somebody will, you know, we'll buy it and we'll be rich and we'll move on to something else.
I mean, how different is that? When it really comes down to it from the guys at wall street, we can make this financial instrument. We can sell it to a bunch of people. You know, there are pinches. That don't have the kind of conviction that says, I want to work on this, you know, for a long time, you know, and great companies really are ones that.
Uh, you know, aren't just startups. Uh, somebody said we don't need more stars. We need more finish ups, you know? And, and, you know, I think about, you know, that, that notion of, uh, you know, I'd love to see more Silicon Valley companies that are setting, setting out. To build an enduring institution. And when I started a Riley media, you know, back in the late seventies, people will say, well, who do you want to be like?
And I say, well, it'd be know if I had my druthers, what would be super cool would be, be like Oxford university still around after, you know, 1200 years, you know, wouldn't that be awesome. Oxford. I love it. Yeah. He doesn't have high hopes. Does he? He just wants to be around for 1200, like, come on. How amazing is it?
What I contrarian point of view to have when you're in the hot of the technology world, where everyone is short term investor. Yes. Yes. He's like, ah, you know, 1200 years that'd be a good step. What did he say? That would have, yeah. I, I love this contrarian point of view. I think my mind goes straight to here.
We need more finish ups. You know, when I get very cynical and see, you know, the latest app or startup that's gotten funding and stuff, do we really need. A subscription green smoothie and a box service is really necessary. Well, well, I'll tell you something, uh, that's really interesting. Chad, when you, when you talk about that, there's this app called blink list, right.
And which summarizes books and you know, you and I both love learning. So I'm like literally this week I've been okay, I'm going to get into this idea of book summaries because. I'm finding it really hard to make time to get, to get into books and finish them. So blink list, just to set context, here is a fancy app, lots of fancy avatar.
I download the app and it is a terrible user experience. And I'm like deeply disappointed because I'm like, I'm, I'm getting in this app and I want to learn, I want to devour inside information. I want to. Trigger my mind to how I can apply this to things. And I'm like trying to search books in the search functions a bit loopy.
And then I'm, I'm like trying to go through through the, uh, through the book and stumbling on so many user experience points to the point at which I then look for alternatives. And then I find this quiet, humble, beautifully designed, thoughtful. Application called Insta read, and it goes 10 times further than blink list, but it doesn't have fancy ads.
It's not shouting from the rooftop. It's not in a hurry to, to, to payback and liquidate and have this moment of IPO acquisition. They're just making beautiful handcrafted. Books summaries in audio, in texts, even visualizations and little infographics. And to me, the fact that people are still building great well-crafted product who are building more finish ups is, is really inspiring.
And I think what's so amazing is Tim is doing this yet. He's sort of. Already he's running against the, the flow of the entire universe that he's at the center of. I find that such a great characteristic that he can think different in the middle of the storm. What I actually take away from this clip is the comparison he makes between the kind of the excess of the U S financial markets and what's happening in Silicon Valley.
And I think it is so true. He, at one point. Is, you know, drawing comparisons between between the two and saying like, we actually need to be doing something of substance yes. And need to be committed to it. Not just try and take people's money and run away with it. And I'm not saying that that's. What all startups are doing, but there's certainly an environment in which you can be rewarded for short term thinking.
That's what I think what Tim is really trying to drive home here is maybe you would be better off taking the. You know, how can I deliver more value than I extract? And one way of doing that is taking a longer view. And I think that that's why this so nicely kind of builds on, on what he's been, been sharing.
That's right. That's right. And, you know, I spoke about my most recent mobile experience with insert, which was amazing. And that really sets us up to, to a nice little segue into thinking about. Mobile technology and the job that you have to get done with that. And he has some great thinking about, and if you, if you just pause to think and just really listen to this, we're going to unpack it.
But I think what he has for us here, it's actually the formula to why smartphones really are the future of computing. So let's have a listen here to, to Tim talking about the potential of, of mobile and how we can think about it. Um, the, the first one is to do less. You know, we hear a lot in the mobile world about how it's a small screen.
We hear about how people use mobile devices differently, but this something that's incredibly important. That's going on in mobile that I think we're just beginning to understand. And that is that your mobile device knows so much that you don't have to tell it as much as you used to. Yeah. So, so let's just pick up onto this.
What's really happening is a lot of people in the world of app design talk about, Oh, we've got this beautiful constraint. It's, it's a very small screen. So you forced into some sort of minimalist approach where you have to reduce. A piece of software down to its most essential things, which is true, but what he's alluding to here, I think for anybody who's involved in designing, thinking and building mobile apps.
Is there something much bigger that he alludes to here. And that is that the device has so many sensors and abilities to capture data that it knows so much more about. You know, I think about my iPhone, it knows my resting heart rate. It knows how much activity I've, uh, I've had during the date knows where I'm meant to be next.
And it knows all these things at a deep native iOS in the actual device. And because of that, it can do more on my behalf than the traditional personal computer or even the, even the laptop. And so actually what he's alluding to us here is that. The ability for it to know all of this data means that it can do so much more for us.
So we can do less of some things and create opportunities to do more. And I think. If we, if we take this in for a moment, it truly is a device that's rich with data that we're only just beginning to unpack whether it's, uh, for health and exercise, whether it's for meditation, uh, whether it's for productivity, it doesn't matter.
I mean, So there's a lot in, in what he had to said that when, when you think about the potential of what lays within your smartphone, Chad, where do you start to go with this thought from shame? The only in, in knowing that he was saying this in 2013 and before I'm sure he said it before this, this talk at Stanford.
Is just how much further we have to go to really capitalize on what he's talking about. I can't tell you how many times I'm frustrated in either reentering information or it, you know it, and I understand some people fall at different spots on the privacy spectrum, but yeah, there's some things that I don't really care out there and known in the world.
And if they're known and out there and in the world and on my phone, I want, I want to be intelligently. Enabled, you know, whether that's, you know, my activity schedules or, you know, what I like to eat or, you know, um, where I like to get my news sources from et cetera. I, I feel like so many developers haven't quite unlocked that yeah, the ones, the ones that are w will be very, very successful and yeah.
There is still so much potential that is yet on tap that I'm really excited to see kind of where we're now bringing in artificial intelligence and in the idea of these big data, open data stores, like where that is going to come go. Right. So, so let's, let's unpack it for a bit because I think here is, I think what you've just done for us is get to where, where the opportunity is for anyone who's thinking about the next mobile app or our software.
The real shift. And we're going to get into this later in the show. It's how you work with the data that's collected. We're obviously collecting a lot more data and, and at the heart of this, you know, you've probably heard of like machine learning, learning, and artificial intelligence, or even more classically algorithms.
Any of those three things are just tools in which you're trying to process and understand data. And shortcut, what would manually for humans take an enormous amount of time to do and try and unlock new value by processing data generating insights. And when it's at its best is when technology now crunches through the data.
And not only presents you with an insight, but lets you take action based upon it. And the more of these things that happen without your intervention, uh, or, you know, let's say hard work to, to process. This is the new exponential value of technology is. And actually Tim speaks to this later on the show.
So we have to like, stay tuned for that, but this is really the opportunity. So when you think about that spectrum of crunching data, when you think about trying to like, create an insight and produce an action, this is the full spectrum of new opportunities to innovate. And I think there's a world of possibilities inside this, don't you?
Yeah. And there's, there's two things that I want to say here. One is. Tim follows up talking about this in that. The actual physical mode of using a smartphone is so often hunched over staring at the screen. And I think what he's alluding to is like, how can we put the phone away or keep it in the pocket or have it in a different use case and just, and have it work, you know, everything from walk up to my vehicle and it starts and unlocks and.
Starts playing my, my playlist that I was listening to my headphones, those kinds of things. I understand. There's a lot of hurdles that have to be overcome to make that sort of thing happen. But that's really where I think these opportunities lie. And to be able to capitalize in this, in this opportunity.
The second one is I was just thinking about your, your Blinkist. And, um, it reads example, like I know Amazon would hate this, but like if you're browsing the Amazon. Book page and, and Insta read has a summary of that. I would love to know that. And then, so that I either get a notification there or I'm back in the app, it would say, Hey, you looked up this New York times bestseller.
We have a summary of that. You know, we've already downloaded it for you and here you can listen, I will. I just want to build on that in, in this use case of moving towards books, summaries, I think what I'm doing is completely reordering how I read. So I have a feeling, this is what's emerging. Like literally this week I am going to start.
With book summaries, and only if it really excites me, do I guy go and purchase the book? Yeah, that, that, that was my car. That was my college, uh, tuition. Right. I went, I went to a great college institution that has a great books program, so they could tell me the books that I needed to read. But you think about it, that, that that's where, uh, technology is, is really changing.
The way we behave, but what, what you're speaking to is a journey through this pattern, um, of crunching data, producing new insights and potentially presenting new actions, new things to do based on that. And I want you to imagine this is sort of like a loop. This is like an end to wind. And, uh, what's really powerful in the way things is.
He actually in this next clip is going to outline how we should think about exploiting this loop, how we can actually move through it and how we can create the most value. So this is the perfect moment for us to listen to Tim. Are you talking about closing the loop? Is to close the loop. You know, what makes that Uber experience so different is that, you know, when your cab is going to.
You know, when, when you let's say you want to go to the airport and you call a cab, you never know, are they going to show up? Are they close? Uh, you know, did they forget, uh, you know, you're standing on a street corner in the rain. You don't know how long it's going to be. You think about Uber, you know, you can sit in the restaurant, you can sit in the coffee shop, you get a text when the driver's outside.
You know, Uber has closed the loop. Uh, you want to know where they are. You can actually look on the map, you can watch their progress towards your location. And, you know, Uber has, you know, close the loop. And I got that framing from Chris Saka. Who's an early investor in Uber. He was also Google's head of special projects for a long time.
And he said, what I learned from Google is to only invest in things that close the loop. So how true is it that once you've ordered your Uber, it's the period between ordering the Uber and getting in it? That's when you're using the app and use it. That's when you have the most heightened journey in the experience, because once you're in, you close your phone and you don't know you're in, you're on the way, but it's so true.
They do close the loop. Don't they? Yeah. The interesting mental model that I have held for a long time, I call it the information gap. There, there's just this natural tension, you know, if, if you open this information gap, okay. I ordered a cabin. Where is it now? I don't know. I'm worried. Yeah. It kind of activates the, the, the lizard brain, the kind of like fight or flight.
It's like, I don't know why. You know, there's all this uncertainty and anything that we can do to close that information gap is like a huge release. And I think actually psychologically and chemically, like neurologically, there's like a release of chemical. That's kind of like soothing to you. Yes. Yes.
You know, there's this one thing Chad, I have seen directly. Do you ever have this thing where you watching the route that your Uber is taking. Why is he going that way? I always have this thing. Like, that's not the best way to get here. I mean, that's how small would concern is now you're now like trying to ESP navigate your driver.
Like what are you going that way? Yeah, but I think what Tim is calling out here is like a very powerful psychological force. And I think others have talked about this in terms of like a viral loop of just is if you can create these kind of reinforcing and reassuring. Loops as Tim is saying here, you know, closing the loop, it actually makes the experience so much better.
And he's using Uber as kind of as an Uber case, if you will. But I think anyone that is, you know, designing a user experience should really, should really. You know, take this, this model to heart. Yeah. Yeah. And I would also look at Airbnb. I think they're doing an amazing job of closing the loop on staying somewhere and you know, they're expanding that into experiences now.
So, I mean, I mean, world's their oyster. If you asked me, uh, lots of, lots of loop opportunities, uh, swimming around in our universe. So let's, let's just, um, uh, think about some of the, some of the cool stuff we've still coming up where we're really going to move into all sorts of mental models about shifts between data and software.
We're going to think about workflows, but I think what's really exciting. As on the, on the other side, the spectrum, Tim's got lots of thoughts it's on, on how we should prioritize our time and the things that. That create the most value in the universe that is planning more, plenty, more coming up. Now, if you're interested at all on finding the full length interviews that we've taken clips, you will be able to go to moonshots.io where we'll have fabulous show notes with all the details and all the links there.
So to make sure you go and check that out. Before we get into the new clips, we should showcase Tim's new book, which has literally just come out. I think, do we have to confess that neither of us have had the chance to read it yet, Chad? Well, it did come out just two days ago. Oh, that's fair, fair, fair.
It's called WTF or what's the future and why it's up to us. And like I said, it just came out two days ago and Mike and I have not had the chance to read it, but. Hopefully you have learned a lot from Tim thus far on this episode and we'll be encouraged to go and check it out. Yeah. And I, I would, I would think from everything I understand about this one, it's really a positive and inspiring view to the future, which is exactly where Chad and I are coming from.
So this is like, you know, going top of my book summary list. I just, that book summary released this. This is really. Right up our alley. And we would really encourage everyone to dig into to my Riley's work. And if, if a book feels like too much, he's pretty active on Twitter. So you'll find him there, there as well.
But, uh, no doubt. That'll be it satisfying rate regardless of how you read it, how you digest it. So based on some of the reviews. Yeah. And just from, from what I know of Tim, you know, I think he will talk about things like the new gig economy, how artificial intelligence and machines fits into the new economy.
You know, a future of work where we're not. Just being replaced by machines or artificial intelligence. You know, these are things that he has been thinking about for a really long time. And, um, I'm hoping that when I dig into the book, uh, he, he goes into those sorts of things. Yeah. Yeah. He, he, he really has, uh, has a lot to offer.
So Tim O'Reilly, what's the future and why it's up to us. So I just grab it from you. Fame favorite sauce. So now we're going to go and jump into the second half of the show. And what's really interesting is you're already starting to see that whether you're talking about closing the loop on a software experience or creating more value in the world, Tim's got lots of thinking to, to offer us.
So now we're going to go and, and run ride through a bunch of ideas, uh, that what really exciting, uh, to discover. So let's kick off on, on I really big theme of his, you know, he talks a lot about and value in this, this next clip. He's going to talk about. How we prioritize our efforts and what problems we go out to solve in the world.
So let's have a listen to Tim. O'Reilly talking about working on stuff that matters piano when we, uh, I started working on the open source movement. It was because we said, Hey, this is really important thing that nobody's paying attention to it. But we sold a lot of books because we told them big story that mattered to all those communities that we made them proud of who they were.
They, we made the world know who they were. And it was great marketing for us. It was great because we were helping others and we helped our own web 2.0. A lot of people don't realize this, but the reason why we started that marketing campaign was because does the.com bus a lot of our customers who are out of work.
And we actually had our strategic goal in 2003 to reignite enthusiasm in the computer business. We basically, we went out there and we told a big story that was designed to help other people. And it sure it, it helped us build our business as well. Uh, you know, clearly I've been doing that in areas like open government.
I'm looking at health care. I'm really interested in that. Government healthcare, universal software. Um, I'm just working on everything, guys. What are you guys working on? Yeah, building a 1200 year legacy company. Oh my gosh. It really just drives home at the core of everything he does is a greater good for ed.
Truly think he has an altruistic business vision. I don't think any of the initiatives he's. He started where from selfish or profit driven motives. And so I think working on stuff that matters is, you know, like a bumper sticker that you could put on the back of his car. He could, he could have the bumper sticker, he can have the flag, he can have it all, you know, I, I think that there's this idea of, you know, doing stuff that matters and it sounds good and it makes sense, but, but I think it's important that we call out.
So some of the reason, some of the practical value that it creates for me, any company that is really trying to tackle a big problem, something that really affects a lot of people. We'll have a much easier job of recruiting people to come work for them because in the end, humans are drawn to why big, meaningful things.
And it, I think it's really important to state that, that building a company that's working on a really big, meaty, hairy, nasty challenge that could, could actually create positive change for a lot of people will always have a better. Chance of recruiting great people because the mission will be so, so appealing.
Um, what else, Chad, do you see as being like the big benefits to working on stuff that matters? Just feeling good about what you're doing? Right. There are a lot of us at times in our lives where we've been, you know, stuck in kind of work that is just not very fulfilling. And there's a time and a place for that work, but I think if you're entrepreneurial like you and I, and most of our listeners, I think that that's something that you shouldn't forget about is doing work on stuff that matters.
And that could mean, you know, solving a big business or economic challenge. It could mean solving a social challenge, um, or, you know, uh, I mean any number of ways, but I think. This idea of, of purpose is of course, you know, uh, coming to the forefront, especially like you said, in, in recruitment and retention, um, for, for large companies today, I've gotten one other that I'd like to add to this chat.
Let me try this one out on you. I also have this idea that working on big stuff presents a very practical opportunity for new businesses and products. So I think about our ladies, if you're trying to solve this big problem, like. Make make a young people more healthier, you know, create support services for rich and rewarding lives for retirees.
Doesn't matter if you're tackling something really big. Like this what's really interesting is that that that universe is going to be full of lots of different areas of interests, lots of different user cases. So if you're going out trying to sell something really big and you fail the first time.
You'll often discover that there are other problems that maybe you can solve or you move on, you try it on a, and being there you're trying on. See, because the space, if you will. Well, the industry vertical is so big. There's lots of room to move around in it. Whereas if you're actually working on something really, really, really small and not of great consequence it's so it's such a narrow niche that it's sort of.
Well, if you can't get that done, there's not much else in the space. So I think that if you want to, like, de-risk your enterprise go after a big and profound problem, because there'll be so many parts to that problem that maybe you end up selling, having a different part of the problem than that, to which you started out with.
And that's the other huge advantage to working on big stuff. So, what, what do you think of this idea? Can you see how, how, how that can create new possibilities and, and sort of a backup plan if you will? Well, I think what you're saying, Mike, is that we should take moonshots as if we, if we, if we miss, if we miss then, uh, Then the problem spaces is so large that we will inevitably stumble into a problem, you know, that we can solve or maybe have already solved.
Absolutely. I love that idea. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think, you know, when you think about things that were in huge need of reinvention, that, uh, you know, the way that we get connected to the right products and services, the way in which we. Get the right technology in our lives is, is a big thing in, in modern life.
And what's really interesting is, um, Tim has this great thinking about how to reimagine workflow. So if you're starting on a new company, he's like reimagine a workflow, a defacto standard in which something is happening and challenge it. And so this next clip is his advice and he has some great examples here on how you can rethink workflows.
So let's have a listen to Tim's thoughts, but in another place where you see this also in a retail context is in the Apple store. I mean, how amazing is the Apple store? You go into a typical retailer. You can't find a salesperson to save your life, you know, and instead, you know, what Apple has done is they've given.
All these, uh, they they've, they've taken that cash, right? Just a workflow and totally decomposed it so that everybody who works for Apple in the store can check you out. They can check inventory. They've turned the man, augmented humans with superpowers. So you have, instead of no clerks, you here is automation, you know, creating more clerks and making it an extraordinarily profitable store.
So rethinking workflow with what did he call them? Augmented human. So what was that? Well, that, that's where he, that's his positive view of artificial intelligence and computing and technology enabling and enhancing the workforce. Right. You know, so it's actually not replacing people. It's actually.
Putting more cashiers to work in fact now because everyone can be a, uh, a stock person and an Infor, you know, know everything about the products and can check you out. Well, you know, and I think we should unpack this a little bit. So one key thing for everyone to understand is. Apple has not only built one of the best supply chains in the universe.
They've not only built some of the most beautiful, full and profitable products in the world. They have also built the most profitable per square foot retail space in the universe. Like nobody per square foot sells as much. Stuff as Apple and, and they have done this by re-imagining like the genius bar was a big part of it, the design and what he's quite rightly pointed out.
It's a fabulous point is he, they have armed it with all these fresh hip, young looking millennials with their bright colored teas. But it's actually what they're armed with, which is an iPhone. And like a Stripe card to check you out so everyone can check you out rather than the traditional have to go to the cashier.
And by just rethinking re-imagining that workflow, they have become the best retailer in the universe. I'm sitting here trying to think how. How you or I could rethink an existing workflow of ours in a similar way. Um, my gosh, that's a very interesting experiment that I'm going to, I'm going to run away with because I mean, you're right.
Just Apple does so many things right. In retail as one of them. Um, I'm just like imagining my last experience at best buy, which was horrific. Well, it's never, I never want to go there despite its convenience to where I live and I, I will always like. Go several blocks. If not half a mile out of my way to go into an Apple store, just to check out the latest things, not even necessarily to buy anything.
So I think about two things in my life that I've encountered, which felt ridiculous. One is. The process of getting a mortgage and dealing with banks. That is a workflow that is in dire need of some fixing, I think another one. Uh, and you know, and, and this is particularly important. For most of us who have families and stuff like that is health care.
Health care seems to be riddled with so much. Paper is like, everything is a barrier, whether it's the getting in. Sure. Going to your general practitioner, getting to see a specialist. I mean, This seems no matter which of the four countries I've lived in. No, one's really got it dialed. So those are two areas that instantly come to my mind.
And I would just say too to our listeners, I would challenge them and say, if your company has a. I support or help desk experience. I would just challenge you to go have a look at that workflow and see if you are you really doing the best you can to support your customers? Are you giving them every single thing they could possibly need to be successful?
I think you'll probably find there some workflows there. That can get fixing, but let's think about your, I think I got mine. Yeah. I think, I think I got it. I think it would have to be my client onboarding yeah. Process. Yeah. Uh, which is nonexistent at the moment. So I think. Yeah. The idea of kind of stepping into my client's shoes and understanding what would be most helpful for them.
I'm just thinking like, how can I make this an Apple experience? It's going to be really interesting. Couple of hours thinking through that. So yeah, I've already got some ideas. Okay. So, so let's keep going on this line a bit, because what you would want to do is you would actually want to validate, you want to test and learn what that journey looks like with your customer.
So you have an assumption about what that looks like. So, what you'd want to do is you'd actually want to get a client that you've worked with recently and get them to draw or write down that process as they saw it with no aid from you. Just let them define that process as it is to them. Now, what might be interesting?
You're a storyteller. So you might see it very much through narrative and. W, you know, getting the ingredients, you need to go tell the story, but they might, I'd be thinking about it purely from a time perspective. Cause they have a big deadline. Now that's a great example of two people coming at a workflow from totally different, uh, points of view, what your job is, is to go and understand it from their point of view because the system really needs to support them.
And you have to do the work of integrating that invisibly into your workflow in the backend. So I think rethinking workflows always starts with empathy for your customer and looking at it through their, their view, through their lens. And then, and it all kind of goes from there. You then start using a vocabulary, choosing the right channels.
They might be uncomfortable doing it on mobile. It might be some, a desktop experience. Maybe they need to have a. Face to face before anything happens because they see you as a practitioner of the dark arts there, they don't know much about storytelling. This is the, like the product at the end. They don't know how the sausage gets made.
So maybe they need that, that face to face. Sit down to kick things off that that could, I could easily imagine that. Yeah, I've my, my ideas are already are already going. I'm I'm thinking how I can test this out with my, my next new. Nice new client. Nice. So we've got, we've got some thoughts are from Tim on data, which I found pretty exciting.
What did you think about his thoughts on data versus software? Well, I think wasn't it Brad Feld? Who said software or no? Um, Fred Wilson. Software's eating the world. Uh, it might be getting them confused. It was Mark Andreessen from Andreessen, Marc Andreessen. Yeah. Yeah. Founder of Netscape said software's eating the world.
Uh, I think we have a challenging that what exactly? Wait, this was, was so refreshing. Um, so we'll just let him speak and then we can talk about it. I realized that open source software and open protocols of the internet, we're going to make software as it was less valuable and something else would become valuable when that became commoditized.
And I came to the conclusion it was data and, you know, so that was really what distinguished companies like Google or for that matter, Amazon, from the previous generation of software companies, he's putting data on a higher tier than software, which. I think we're seeing the results of actually in the marketplace.
Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's a little contrary and cause I do agree that the, that, you know, obviously Amazon and Google are, you know, equally software and, and data companies, but I think data platforms, I think, I think that's a, maybe a better way to conceive of them and what maybe, why they've been so successful for so long was.
It kind of started with software, but actually the values in the data. I think that's what Tim is saying. Here it is. And it goes back to, to that idea that we were kicking around earlier, which is, you know, the mobile capture mobile device captures all this data. So it's the opportunity for it to process data, get some insights and then even particularly, you know, help users take actions based on that.
That's really the power of data. And I think what you can only expect, it sounds probably very logical is that, that we're just going to be swamped in data. So we're, we're going to be moving into an era where it's all about managing, or even perhaps coping with data, but the best. The best services and products of the future, I think are those that are going to help us get the most out of the data.
And so you can think about so many parts of your life now that have data as a component, and it's going to be less about. Capturing and crunching the data and the, the, the services of tomorrow, the products of tomorrow. Again, it'd be doing something with the data and doing it for you. So you don't have to process it because naturally computers can do it 10 times better than humans.
So when you think about a future where it's about data insights and data actions, what comes to your mind? I don't know. One, one interesting thing to me is. Just because I'm doing some experimentation is like around nutrition and diet. And like when you eat and how much you eat, eat, and what you eat. And I think that that has such a huge impact on your health, that as we're getting more data and we're understanding more about the correlations, you know, I would just love, you know, if there, if whole foods slash Amazon knew.
What I was ordering and eating and kind of win, then it could help me just do it again, more optimized way, like say I'm really active and I need more calories. Cause I'm training for. An event knows that, cause I'm not on social media, but if I were you, I would know that, you know, I'm training for a race.
I've seen that I've registered for this race. Or I knows that, you know, I have this like beach party or whatever I'm going to, and I need to shed a few pounds. That that's one thing that I think. There's been a lot of playing around in the health and fitness space, but I haven't seen very many concrete visceral benefits to it yet.
I think it's cause it's a little too disparate. It is. And, and I worked on a, um, health and quantified self product and, uh, it was hardware and software and, um, really fascinating was that. In the end of the day, people are not that excited about sharing data about it, how their body and health and, uh, exercise is doing it.
It really becomes magical and there are natural automated, smart. Actions that the device helps you take based on that data. So if we just present a user with data, right? The first thing that the user does go, okay, now what do I do? So you have to, you have to go and close that out, which is interesting because it comes to this back to this other idea of closing.
The loop. And that's a really good example of, of closing the loop. So the user goes in a to Z and the experience end to end and, and the, the journey is complete. And this is, this is sort of combining two of Tim's thoughts together, but you do actually kind of really start to get this clear picture. And this, this one area in the world that, that, that Tim has consumed with that.
If there was loops, it almost never closes the loop and it's government. I can't tell you, Oh my Lord, no matter where you are in the world, whether you're in California or whether you're in Sydney, Australia, I'm dealing with government. He is often challenging when it comes down to permits for a house taxes, driver's licenses, you name it.
There are a lot of loops left, wide open, but, um, mr. Tim O'Reilly has some pretty powerful thinking for us and he's created, uh, he's the chairman and he's on the board and he's been supporting the founder of a great initiative called code for America. And so he single handedly building this, uh, this team to go out and change the way government works in America.
So let's have a listen to Tim talking about code for America. So important that we fix government because it's a third of our break fragrant economy. And as we saw with the failure of healthcare, like, Oh, it's really broken. And you know, we have all these people with good intentions. You know, that's what I really discovered when I went to Washington, you happy with good intentions and they can't actually execute on their good intentions because they are so bound in this.
You know, system that needs to be broken and unlike, you know, uh, the, the, uh, companies in the private sector who can be disrupted by new entrance, it's very hard for government to be disruptive without a revolution. So we actually have to tackle that such a surprising clip, such a good clip. The end of it, I think was my favorite part saying that government can't be disrupted without a revolution.
I know, I know it really goes to show like how static and stagnant government can be, which is why an initiative like code for America is so encouraging it is. And didn't it blow your mind? That government is a third of the economy in America. Uh, I, I don't even want to get into how much America spends on, on defense, but yeah, it's, it's actually not that surprised.
Oh my gosh. Think of that. I know, I know the number's ridiculous. If you take healthcare and defense, which are the two biggest budget items, I know that the number is like way off the charts. I think it's like close to two, but the, I think Medicare alone is, is 1.3 trillion. Oh my gosh. Oh, my gosh. He has an example where Oracle went to a, uh, I think a local government and said, okay, here's our solution.
It's $13 million. And the P the procure knew about databases and database systems. And I was like, no, this is worth 1 million. And then I think they settled at one and a half million, but it just goes to show like the inefficiencies and the, uh, In the government space because there's no, there's no open competition.
You know, like all of us that are out there trying to build our own things, we're competing against ourselves because we're in the free and open market. It's not really the same, same in government. Yeah. Accountability. Huh. And this is Tim pudding. He's walking the talk here. He is providing more value than he's capturing and he's working on something that matters to everyone.
Right. Because we're all in a government of some. Form or fashion. And how inspiring is a, it's a guy that has like made the first catalog of the internet pivotal in the creation of open source software, define the web in the two thousands with web 2.0 created. You have to make a movement, has a, a prestigious, uh, venture for, and now he's just going to solve government, like what a rap shape, like what animal amazing spread of accomplishments and mission driven guy like, wow.
I find that inspiring just to see the scope of what he's trying to contribute. Yeah, I, I am going to pick up his book. I mean, I'm going to order it on Amazon. As soon as we get off the call here, it's one of my favorite things about him. Really. I had no idea, okay, how socially conscious he was and everything that, that, that he's doing.
But if you look at everything that he's done, it's, it's rooted in that, in that idealism and, and, and fighting for a greater good. And so this, this last clip I think is just a great. Summation of, of Tim and his philosophy and his outlook on life. So here is our final clip. Tim's parting words for us this evening love to be challenged with idealism.
They love to be challenged to do stuff that matters. And so in the last year, ever since I gave that talk, I've really just been focusing on that. Just like, I don't care what you do, do something that matters to you more than money. That's a great way to succeed, but. Even if you don't succeed, the world will be in a better place.
And that's what you should think of as an entrepreneur. And you think about working on things that are hard. Remember that what we fight with is a small. And when we, when it makes a small, you know, find hard problems, I I've never, uh, thought about the other side of going big, which is like, if you solve small things, it just makes you small.
But it's like what a neat little idea that one was. Yeah, hard problems. That map solve hard problems that matter. I think that's a great mantra for all of us to take forward in our work. Yeah. And, and the, the, the challenge I would put to everyone is that regardless of what business you think you're in, I am sure that you're part of the biggest story for positive.
Change. And I would, I would challenge everyone to go out and, and take some of these amazing little bits of wisdom from Tim about creating more value than they take closing the loop. Like it's almost an entrepreneur's end to win tip book. Isn't it, you know, more finish ups, work on stuff that matters.
Re-imagined workflows. Actually, if you start to look at it, What we've been able to pull together this show, it really is a comprehensive list of wisdom that you can employ to create a company that that really is a force for good, isn't it? Yeah. And from such an interesting perspective, again, he didn't start a tech startup.
He started, he started so many kind of grassroots community driven groups and organizations and ran. Uh, kind of a media empire that is essentially just giving away, like he said, he's giving away billion dollar ideas and a $35. Yeah. And how he he's. So at ease with that. He's like he's in this funny, we charge 35 and they make 35 million.
Oh, Oh, Oh. Like it's just jovial and ate some of it's mission accomplished for him. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's really hard to, uh, to dislike him. That's for sure. But, uh, I just want to. To again, ask you Mike. There are so many great tips here. What's what's one thing that's got your mind cooking that you're gonna take into this weekend and next week and noodle on where you let me choose to am I allowed?
Sure. Okay. Okay. I think I can't. A move off that the thought of creating more value than, than you take, because that's probably been in my career thus far. One of the biggest learnings I probably was, uh, more on the, the, particularly on the, not giving away your ideas. Kind of that, that kind of thing. And I've just like the idea of giving away your ideas, sharing with others, making this show with you is all part of it that, uh, uh, in fact, giving away, uh, these ideas is this formula for innovation.
This formula for moonshots to our listeners is deeply rewarding for me. Um, so that, that one has been reinforced. And if I, if I go to a more pragmatic product design kind of thing, I really liked the rethinking workflows me to have re there's something in that that just there's so much crap that just doesn't work properly.
So just go fix it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's the one that's got my, my, my gears turning for sure. Yeah. That and, and kind of where he closed. Um, I'm, I'm paraphrasing, but you know, solve hard problems matter. I think that's. That's a great, a great mission for myself going forward. It is. And I think what's important is there's a lot of followup work for our listeners on this.
If any of these ideas have spiked your mind, please go and check out the show notes because we'll have a ton of links there, obviously to the book, but to, to the, to the. Video interviews that we pulled these clips from, and we'll have lots of other links with goodies from, from the show. And you'll find all of those at, at moonshots.io.
And you'll find lots of other little goodies on the site as well. And I think, uh, you know, where we're kind of shy and we need positive reinforcement, Chad. So I think iTunes and leave us a review. You don't have to give us a five star review, but we do want to hear and know that you listeners are out there and enjoying the show, those of you that I have connected with.
It's been great to get your feedback, Mike and I are incorporating that right into the show, everything that you're sharing with me and I, you know, I just wanted to give a shout out to our global audience. We have people. In your neck of the woods in Australia, we have people in Northern Europe. We have people here in the us States, Eastern Europe.
I'm, I'm just so thankful and grateful for all of you kind of going on this journey with Mike and myself. Um, hopefully as we share more than we take back, Um, all we're asking is just, you know, for your feedback and, and to let us know what you think of the show, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. And, um, which brings me, uh, to, to our last order of, uh, business Chad, which seems to be a.
Some thoughts about who, who, and where we go on the next episode of the moonshots podcast, Tim is a hard act to follow. I feel like we've got to do some, some sort of pivoting, cause it would just be unfair to anyone similar to you trying to compare to that wisdom. Who's who's tickling your mind. I kinda like, uh, we we've, we've not done Apple yet.
Obviously the big one. Would be to do Steve. I've got some biggies for Steve, but not ready to do him yet. I'm wondering what about Angela? the head of retail who was formally CEO of Burberry, but she moved to LA. She's a really smart cookie that she could be great to do. Yeah. Some, I have just seen more and more of Arianna Huffington in the news lately.
And I think she's doing some really interesting things, especially being on the board of Uber Monday, how she feels about that idea. Cause she literally joined just before the whole thing imploded. Yeah, exactly. But also, um, bill Gates, I think. Yes. Yeah. He's another big one and I just, I think. Where he is in his life right now, could we could get some really interesting ideas to be able to share with our audience, just because of that, where he began and then kind of where he's been really for like the last 10 years, you know, he he's, he's been able to be removed and I think have a different perspective on.
That the new tech world he helped create. So I'd be very, very curious to dive in and see what he has to say. Oh yeah. I love, I love that idea has obviously he has not only Microsoft, but the foundation he's done great work there. And what's really cool is his wife has been very involved in that. So I'm liking a lot of that.
So I'm going to, yeah, I think he may have just hit the nail on the head. Um, the one thing and Melinda and her own show, even, I feel like, yeah, she gets her own show. Yeah. I actually think you're right there. The other thing to keep in mind is there is one of the Alzheimer greatest tech interviews ever.
Which was re code, uh, who, who we love. I've used some of their, uh, interviews previously. They managed to get bill Gates and Steve jobs on stage together in any interview. And it is clips from that. I will have to watch the whole thing. Oh my gosh. It's so good. So we got, we got plenty there. I'm also thinking down the track.
There's a number of great investors. Peter teal, Paul Graham, Sam Altman, Chris Sacca, who was mentioned on this show today. Marc Andreessen, those guys are good. There's some tech founders, or you see Larry and Sergei Mark Benioff from Salesforce, Jack Dorsey from Twitter. We got some good people. The other one we should consider doing is Stacy Brown, Phil pot, who is the CEO of house rabbit, which just got acquired by Ikea.
Oh, right? Yeah. That would be a, that would be a good one. Yeah. So lots of goodies for everyone, uh, to listen to, um, in the coming listeners, if you have an opinion, please. Yes, no, we tend to throw out a lot of names and we need a big list. Cause it has to last as 1200 years, right? Yeah. Well, yeah. At this rate we'll need yeah, like 10,000.
10,000 people yeah. To go 1200 years. Yeah.
So that's, that's a, that's a wrap, I think for the show, uh, a deep and meaningful, uh, hug across the universe to all our listeners. We really do appreciate all your feedback, your likes, your clicks, your listens. Please come get to know us on moonshots.io. We're going to have a great show, uh, next week, really looking forward to that.
So for me, Chad, um, I've, I'm. Once we finish recording, I'm straight down to the gym. What's next in your part of the part of the woods must be summer. Almost be a dinnertime. I would imagine. Oh yeah. My wife has dinner waiting. I will be walking home from my office with the dog. Speaking of wives, I just wanted to give a shout out to Brady who is doing lots of wonderful things behind the scenes for moonshot.
So thank you. It's a team effort. It's a team effort here at team moonshot. Well, uh, you have a wonderful afternoon, Mike, and, uh, I will speak to you next time. Okay, Chad, thanks a lot. And goodbye everyone. And we'll see you next year.