21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership by John C. Maxwell

EPISODE 250

Dive into the essence of leadership with John C. Maxwell, a titan of leadership wisdom, as he graces the Moonshots Podcast for our special 250th episode. Kicking off the show, Maxwell shares an insightful perspective on the power of influence and leadership that sets the stage for an unforgettable anniversary episode.
Become a member.
The Law of Influence (1m36): Maxwell delves into the profound impact of Dale Carnegie's seminal work, "How to Win Friends and Influence People," on leadership and personal growth. He highlights the significance of understanding and valuing the perspectives of others, emphasizing the sweetest word in any language: one's name.
Sweetest Word to Others (2m41): Continuing the conversation, Maxwell discusses the importance of personal connection and recognition in building influential relationships. He illustrates how acknowledging and appreciating others' contributions can lead to more effective leadership.
The Law of the Lid (2m10): Maxwell introduces us to the first of his 21 Laws of Leadership: The Law of the Lid. He breaks down this concept, explaining how an individual's leadership ability determines effectiveness and success. Maxwell challenges listeners to raise their leadership lids by developing their skills and capacities.
OUTRO: Concluding the episode, Maxwell shares a piece of daily advice that has been instrumental in his personal and professional life: the practice of jotting down thoughts and ideas. He advocates for writing as a tool for clarity, direction, and reflection, encouraging listeners to incorporate this habit into their daily routines.
Join hosts Mike and Mark as they explore these transformative insights with John C. Maxwell, offering listeners a deep dive into the principles that shape authentic leadership. Whether you're a long-time follower of Maxwell's teachings or new to the concepts of leadership, this episode is packed with valuable lessons, practical advice, and inspirational guidance.
Buy The Book on Amazon
Don’t miss this landmark episode of the Moonshots Podcast – a journey into the heart of leadership with one of the most influential thinkers of our time.
Transcript

00:00:05:01 - 00:00:20:11
Speaker 1
Hello and welcome to the Moonshots podcast. It's episode of Wait for It 250. I'm Neil co-host My Passions. And as always, I'm joined by Mr. Matt Pearson Freeland. Happy anniversary, Mark.

00:00:20:13 - 00:00:41:19
Speaker 2
Well, thank you very much, Mike, and thank you to all of our listeners and members for joining us all the way through to episode number 250. That excludes, of course, Mike, all of our unique master series. That's only two members, but you write a quarter of a thousand episodes. We're certainly clocking up these numbers, aren't we?

00:00:41:21 - 00:01:08:19
Speaker 1
I love your math. I think it sounds epic. Yeah, I'm not great at math. I didn't know that. Apart from 250 episodes, it's been an absolute joy to do a year and we about to have the chance to look at the 21 irrefutable laws of leadership to wrap up our absolute scorching servant leadership series. How are you feeling and who is this author we're going to study?

00:01:08:21 - 00:01:36:07
Speaker 2
Well, Mike and listeners and viewers, we're digging in today in episode 250, what, 250 into John C Maxwell's the 21 irrefutable laws of leadership and might get this as the sublime follow them, follow these rules and people will follow you. Now, Mike, for those who don't necessarily know John C Maxwell that well, he is a celebrated renowned leadership expert.

00:01:36:09 - 00:02:08:21
Speaker 2
This book, in fact, was written and released 25 years ago. Mike So maybe there's a nice symmetry there. 25 years Episode 250 You know, somebody is going to see a correlation there, but this book really has those key principles for effective leadership and really helping develop this idea of a leader within us. So I think, as you say, within this servant leadership series that we've we've gone on, this deserves its place as one of the all time best that we can dig into for this topic.

00:02:08:23 - 00:02:31:02
Speaker 1
Yeah, angry. As you rightly pointed out 25 years ago when this was published. The beautiful thing is there is a thread, as you said, follow them and people will follow you. That is exactly the same narrative that we hear from Lincoln. But we hear from Brené Brown and what we heard from Simon Senate with Ed leaders eat last.

00:02:31:04 - 00:03:04:11
Speaker 1
And this is the underpinning storyline of servant leadership is if you work hard to serve those around you, you will achieve leadership. And anyone can do this, not just the one or two folks in the ivory tower. It's an offer for all of us. Now, Mark, I wish we could promise our listeners that we did the whole 21 irrefutable laws of leadership, but we would have been here for 250 hours and having the stamina is obviously something we need to improve because we're only picked out the four best ideas.

00:03:04:11 - 00:03:17:07
Speaker 1
But I can't wait to jump into those ideas. If our listeners, viewers and members want to actually take the leadership game and master it, this is the show. I think we should jump in.

00:03:17:09 - 00:03:37:00
Speaker 2
Or I think we've set it up perfectly. So listeners, viewers, members. Episode 250 I hope you're getting ready and fired up because we're about to jump straight in to one of John C Maxwell's irrefutable laws of leadership, specifically around the idea of influence.

00:03:37:02 - 00:04:05:06
Speaker 3
Today, I would like to talk to you on becoming a person of influence in your workbook. The first statement is important Leadership is influence in the 21 irrefutable laws of leadership. I talk about a couple of laws. One is the law of influence that says the true measure of leadership is influence. Nothing more, nothing less. The other law is called the law of E.F. Hutton that says when the real leader speaks, people listen.

00:04:05:08 - 00:04:28:22
Speaker 3
What I'm really wanting to share with you in this lesson, in this training series, is to understand that that leadership is influence influences leadership. The person in any given group that has the most influence at any given time for any given reason is the leader of the group. So our goal, since leadership is influence, our goal is to increase your influence.

00:04:28:24 - 00:04:57:06
Speaker 3
Look in your notes. Increasing your influence equals increasing your leadership. J.R. Miller said there have been meetings of only a moment which have left impressions for a life for eternity. No one can understand that mysterious thing we call influence. Yet every one of us continually exerts influence either to heal or to bless, or to leave marks of beauty or to wound, to hurt, to poison, to stain others lives.

00:04:57:10 - 00:05:14:05
Speaker 3
So the goal of our training is twofold. Number one, help you better understand influence. And number two, help you increase your influence without.

00:05:14:08 - 00:05:30:12
Speaker 1
Now, what I like about the reframing of leadership to be influence is it's suggestive that it's not command and control.

00:05:30:14 - 00:05:31:17
Speaker 2


00:05:31:19 - 00:05:59:01
Speaker 1
It's suggestive that real leadership is something you sort of earn. You earn in those moments where you can choose to lift people up, help them grow or push them down and almost send them in reverse. That is a moment where you choose as an individual whether you want to be a leader or not. And it's so tempting to give in to immediate fight or flight.

00:05:59:03 - 00:06:26:05
Speaker 1
Fear of uncertainty. It's very easy to give in to that. But if you do so, if you give in to your emotions too much, then you are saying no to influence and as a result, no to leadership. Now, what I like here, Mark, is the the delicacy that this idea of influence represents, because influence is not is like because I told you so.

00:06:26:07 - 00:07:01:23
Speaker 1
It's perhaps because I asked the question or suggested something that people wanted to do it. And I think that is such an interesting area to think about how we achieve influence. And I think it starts by earning it. I think it starts what we've heard throughout this entire series is it is about earning the right to lead, the right to influence, as opposed to dictating through your job title.

00:07:01:25 - 00:07:02:07
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:07:02:12 - 00:07:18:08
Speaker 1
Yeah. When you hear this influence thing and he talks about the moments in those meetings, what comes to your mind? Do you have memories, good, bad or otherwise where you think about influence either for yourself, Mark as a leader or watching others?

00:07:18:10 - 00:07:55:22
Speaker 2
I think I agree with with everything you've just said and earning the right to lead rather than dictating is, I think, in line very much with what we've seen with servant leadership, but also Michael Bungay Stanier, you know, he very much leads us, right, suggests leading in that fashion from a coaching perspective. But for me, when I heard that clip from Maxwell, the thing that really stands out to me is the reminder that any interaction that we have with other people, there's a chance that they are going to remember something that we say or do.

00:07:55:24 - 00:08:21:17
Speaker 2
Hopefully that's going to be positive, but there's also a chance that it could be negative. For me, where I think Maxwell does a really good job of describing in that clip is reinforcing the idea that if you've got this opportunity to work with others, sometimes there are single things that you do or say that really can change or pivot the direction of a certain project campaign, maybe some of these behavior.

00:08:21:19 - 00:08:50:02
Speaker 2
So it's a real reminder to me, and I've been in meetings before when somebody will explain maybe a creative idea or a strategy in maybe a unique way and the penny will drop. And I'll think, now I get it, or why now I'm really inspired. It's enough behind people's behavior, the way that they interact, the way that they describe things, I think is enough to really inspire an entire collection of people, sometimes maybe without even meaning.

00:08:50:04 - 00:09:17:20
Speaker 2
But I think where Maxwell saying is, just in case you're going to be in that position, make sure that you are doing it to the best of your ability. Make sure to not, you know, take advantage, but make sure to really put in the time and the preparation, I think to be a person of influence that then helps you grow, that you start to earn that right to be the leader through behavior and through patterns.

00:09:17:22 - 00:09:36:24
Speaker 1
Yeah, Yeah. Now what I think is interesting for us to do is say just because you have the authority doesn't necessarily give you the influence of the leadership, right?

00:09:37:00 - 00:09:37:21
Speaker 2
No.

00:09:37:23 - 00:10:14:18
Speaker 1
I think you know, where I naturally go is how do you build that influence? And I think we know influence is something that comes over time. But I'm instantly drawn to the idea of the the underlying level of the five dysfunctions of a team, which is trust. And what I'd love to do with you for a second here is explore how we can create influence to be great leaders.

00:10:14:20 - 00:10:33:22
Speaker 1
But what do we have to do to create the influence? Like, let's get into like the really practical stuff. And I think it is all about being trustworthy. And I think I'll start it off. Let's do a little bit of a game of suggestions on how to build trust within our teams.

00:10:33:23 - 00:10:34:16
Speaker 2
Okay.

00:10:34:18 - 00:11:02:12
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think the first thing that comes to my mind around trust is do what you say. I will be in the office at 8 a.m. to take that call. You should join me. Whatever you do, you should be hell bent on getting into the office today, regardless of what problems you have getting out of the house. Right.

00:11:02:14 - 00:11:25:13
Speaker 1
Because when. When you don't do simple things. And I think we all make the mistake of thinking the train was late, I'll be in at 815. Can you stop the call? No, no, no, no. Because what you're saying is my commitment to you, my colleague and the counterparty on the call, it's not that great. And I'm not going to make that much of an effort.

00:11:25:13 - 00:11:45:00
Speaker 1
Right. So I think just keeping your word and delivering the things you promised that you would deliver, it's such a basic thing. Another thing around like doing what you say is, you know, when people say, I send you an email tonight, I had this this morning. I had a call. So I'm in Sydney, Australia yesterday, had a call with someone in New York.

00:11:45:02 - 00:12:09:00
Speaker 1
I said, okay, will you send me an email tomorrow? Your day? Yes, my guy. Will I wake up this morning? It's end of day, New York. I'm like, There is no set email in my inbox. Trust. I've only just met this person. I'd like to partner on this thing for a project, but they've already missed their first thing.

00:12:09:00 - 00:12:23:15
Speaker 1
So the trust went down, the influence went down, and then I'm like, already? And it's just a small thing. I know maybe I'm being a bit OCD here, but if someone says to me, I'll send you an email and then they don't. I'm like, Ooh, it makes me reconsider.

00:12:23:17 - 00:12:26:16
Speaker 2
Okay, Yeah, it's reliability. Totally.

00:12:26:19 - 00:12:32:10
Speaker 1
Do what you say. What else can you do to build the trust, to build the influence, to build the leadership?

00:12:32:12 - 00:12:56:02
Speaker 2
I think you've got to be. I like that one a lot. I think reliability is so key. I think authenticity as well. I think that's somewhat inspired by the reliability piece. I think rely in my mind what I mean by authenticity is be authentic to you as an individual that then inspires others to behave in the same way.

00:12:56:04 - 00:13:35:06
Speaker 2
So like you say, if you're setting intentions such as I'm going to be in for this meeting or I've set it up, I'm going to deliver what I've said I'm going to do. I think authenticity comes through with the angle of making sure that if there's anything that's awkward, anything that's unknown, it's brought up. So, for example, if we were in, you know, and this is probably a case specifically with remote working, you know, you and your colleague or soon to be colleague in New York, the authenticity of hanging out face to face, you'd probably get to a certain point of trust quite quickly.

00:13:35:08 - 00:13:59:07
Speaker 2
But I think working remotely, you're going to need to find ways now to build up that trust again. So by being authentic, maybe the example here would be bring it up with him. You know, you could say, Hey, look, you said you were going to do this. How come it didn't happen? It's okay. It didn't. But what I'd like to establish is a patent where we do deliver each promises that we make each time.

00:13:59:09 - 00:14:05:12
Speaker 2
So you kind of set those intentions quite early on because that's the sort of thing I think would happen if we were face to face.

00:14:05:15 - 00:14:36:15
Speaker 1
Yes. And I think another thing so I like that suggestion, being authentic, being open. Right. I think the heart of that is admitting a vulnerability. If fallibility like I think it's very tempting when, you know, you're expected to lead to have all the answers. And I think it's actually really powerful and say, guys, I have no idea. I got let's brainstorm together on how we might solve this.

00:14:36:15 - 00:14:54:16
Speaker 1
But honestly, it could be a range of answers to solve this problem. I've got no idea. I really don't know. Never seen this before. Let's go and explore. As opposed to you're thinking, I've got no idea. And then you say the only way to do this is to go this direction. I know everything. Go, go, go. And then it's like, that didn't work.

00:14:54:16 - 00:14:59:17
Speaker 1
Mike Yeah, well, that was rainy and the dog ate my homework and, you know.

00:14:59:22 - 00:15:06:04
Speaker 2
Yeah, somebody else's problem. But that's exactly it. Yeah. Yeah.

00:15:06:09 - 00:15:32:12
Speaker 1
But isn't it interesting that if you want to be a leader, you then need to understand that it's actually a position of influence, not authority. It's influence, influence, influence. And how do you get there? You've got to go build the trust with everyone. You've got to be reliable, transparent, open, fallible, honest and human about it and treat others as you'd only want them to treat you as a starting point.

00:15:32:14 - 00:15:57:05
Speaker 1
And I think we're all fighting against the temptation to pretend to know the answer or yeah, when things are not going well, to not take full accountability, be a bit Teflon like, well, we did give it to the other department in the other department dropped the ball, but one might say, Well, why didn't you help them?

00:15:57:07 - 00:16:18:00
Speaker 2
Yeah, why didn't you raise the observation? You know, it might be that you've got more experience perhaps than that other department, and you would have maybe experienced the fallibility in the past. So rather than holding that back, it's possible that you could have said, Hey, I've a department, here's what I've seen before, just to give you a heads up, this might happen as well.

00:16:18:02 - 00:16:49:07
Speaker 2
So it's more of a team player. I think maybe Mike that comes into that. The next area that I think a person of influence can lead is, you know, crucial conversations, noticing when those type of things need to happen, maybe with teams. And again, maybe it's reliability, maybe it's authenticity. But just noticing when people require a conversation, maybe they maybe that's within the other department, you know, I can see this problem maybe happening.

00:16:49:09 - 00:16:57:05
Speaker 2
This is what I wanted to share. I think crucial conversations as I've probably gone on maybe too much in Servant leadership series about.

00:16:57:07 - 00:17:12:03
Speaker 1
Mark, I think Let me let me push it. I think we need confession time. Q Confession Music two Do, do, do do, do. Mark, do you love more than anything else, more than any other book that we've ever reviewed, crucial conversations. Is this true?

00:17:12:05 - 00:17:35:14
Speaker 2
Well, it's I think I think it is mind and listeners and viewers. I went to the library, picked up the copy again the other day. But I think I think this influences is really connected to behavior. You think that's what we're we're kind of finding out already, isn't it, Mike? It's about behaving as a person of influence, and then you become that person of influence through behavior.

00:17:35:16 - 00:17:59:19
Speaker 1
Yeah. And I think if we are reflective enough about how we're behaving, we can catch ourselves. And even if we, you know, fall victim to fear, self-doubt and certainty, frustration, anger, we can work on it, right? We can work on ourselves. And I think that's exactly what we're doing here on the Moonshot podcast and that's exactly what our members are helping us do.

00:17:59:19 - 00:18:26:09
Speaker 2
Mark yes, they are indeed. Mike Now, obviously we have got into a real pattern of calling out our members and to those eagle eared listeners, I think last week, Mike, I nearly passed out from trying to do them too fast and without enough breaths. So this week, members, you're getting maybe a slightly slower call out than last week just for my own health and well-being.

00:18:26:11 - 00:19:14:17
Speaker 2
But please welcome without further delay and do a little Bob, Ken, Dietmar, Marjan, Connor, Rodrigo, Liza and Sid. Mr. Bond, you, Paul Berg and Kalman, Joe, Christian, Samuel and Barbara, Andre, Chris, Deborah and Lisa. Steve Craig, Daniel and Andrew. Ravi, Eve and Karen, Raul, Nicole to Ingram, Dirk and Harry Van Carter, Marco Jett, Roger, Steph and Gabby, all of whom are annual members guys, thank you again for always joining us Hot on those heels it's raw animal and James and Diana Wade, Christophe, Denice, Laura, Smitty, Cora and Gayla Bertram, Daniella, Mike and Dan Antonio, Zachary Austin and Fred, Lorenzo, Ola, Andy and Diana.

00:19:14:22 - 00:19:25:02
Speaker 2
Guys, thank you so much once again for joining us and being part of the Moonshots Master series and members of the Moonshots Club.

00:19:25:04 - 00:19:26:24
Speaker 1
it's a club. It's a membership.

00:19:26:24 - 00:19:27:21
Speaker 2
It's a club now.

00:19:27:22 - 00:19:33:13
Speaker 1
It's a kid, you know that You get this Luna powered good karma when you become a member, right?

00:19:33:15 - 00:19:35:00
Speaker 2
Because you really do.

00:19:35:04 - 00:20:01:10
Speaker 1
Yeah. We invoke the mythological spiritual forces of the galaxy to travel down the Internet right through your Patreon account to make you feel good. Right? So head to Moonshot stereo, become a member. You get this extra podcast, you get a whole lot of love, good karma. And I'll tell you what, you even get to hear your name, which might be Mark a special thing.

00:20:01:12 - 00:20:26:01
Speaker 2
Well, funny you should say that, Mike, because the next lesson, the next piece of wisdom I want to call this clip is from Maxwell. Now, reflecting on the impact that Dale Carnegie's book, How to Influence Friends and Influence People had not only on him, but also his mentor, his father. So let's hear a quite a wonderful little story and visualization of what the sweetest word to others really is.

00:20:26:03 - 00:20:47:17
Speaker 3
Another lesson that I learned from my father. My gosh, what a huge lesson this one was. This one stare stayed with me throughout my life. I just well, they all have. But my father, who he introduced me to, to how to win Friends Influence People by Dale Carnegie. As you know, my father picked out books for me to read when I was a kid.

00:20:47:19 - 00:21:09:03
Speaker 3
And if you read if you've read How to Win Friends and Influence people, I assume you have. I mean. I mean, hello. I mean, can you really go through life and not read that book? Because it is, to me, the relationship Bible simple, basic principles on relationships. And Dale Carnegie said the sweetest sound to a person's ear is the sound of their name.

00:21:09:05 - 00:21:30:01
Speaker 3
And so Dale Carnegie emphasized the importance of remembering names. And my father was really good at it. And when I was a junior in high school, we went and took a Dale Carnegie course on remembering names. I'll never forget it. It was my dad and I took it together and how they had us back then. I don't even know how Dale Carnegie teaches it now, but while they taught it back then, it was that.

00:21:30:01 - 00:21:52:18
Speaker 3
That what you did is, as you put a visual object on their head that would relate to their name. So I'm just, for example, if I met you and and your name your name was, let's say, John Water. Okay, well, then what I do is I would put water right on top of your head. I would put a visual picture of water right there.

00:21:52:20 - 00:22:12:23
Speaker 3
And so I would visually see water on your head so that when I saw you next, I would call you John Water. I remember I remember one time speaking of water, I was I was going to my new church in Lancaster, Ohio, and had hundreds of people to learn their names pretty quick. And I met the first I met a wonderful couple named the Hargis family.

00:22:12:25 - 00:22:32:18
Speaker 3
And soon, as they said, Hargis, I grew up near a lake that was called Hargis Lake, and I thought, man, I got this one out. And so I put a lake right on top of their head. And the next week, when they came back to church, I, I mean, I was so calm. I just reached out my hair, said, Well, how's our Mr. Mrs. Lake today?

00:22:32:20 - 00:22:50:12
Speaker 3
I'll never forget. They looked at me and they looked at each other. And of course, immediately I realized, Oops, I missed that one. I missed that one. And I said, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. What was your name? They said, Hargis, of course. Then I laughed. I told him the Hargis Lake story. So it's not a foolproof. But here's what I do know.

00:22:50:14 - 00:23:08:09
Speaker 3
My father impressed upon me that the name is the sweetest sound, the person's ear, and that immediately when I get it, if I can visualize something and put it on top of the head so that I can remember their name.

00:23:08:11 - 00:23:14:00
Speaker 1
my, that was hilarious. Start. Mark. I think that was a very good story, wouldn't you say?

00:23:14:00 - 00:23:17:07
Speaker 2
Mark Yes, he's I like.

00:23:17:09 - 00:23:21:13
Speaker 1
Swooning over, you know, wrong answer. You should have said yes.

00:23:21:13 - 00:23:33:14
Speaker 2
Mike Yes, you're right, Mike You're right. Mike And the way I remember your name, Mike is quite handy with the moon shot show because we have Mike's.

00:23:33:16 - 00:23:59:04
Speaker 1
And Mike's with Mike and Mike with the same initials. It goes on. Yeah, but let me say it goes like it can be tempting in 2020 forward to the well, remembering people's name to be cheesy. That's a bit Dale Carnegie is a bit old school, but I would ask everyone just to take one step back and look at it more.

00:23:59:04 - 00:24:28:07
Speaker 1
As you making a gesture. It's a deliberate sign of respect that you remember the friggin name. Like that's all you're doing. It's respecting them, right? And there is nothing more charming than when if you and I have just met or we don't know each other too well and that third party comes along, I say, Hey, third party, I'd like you to meet Mark.

00:24:28:09 - 00:25:04:14
Speaker 1
And everybody knows, like, wow. Mike remembered Mike's name, right? That kind of feels like you have been respected. It's a little nod. It's a little recognized person. So whether you think it's a bit old school or not, I do believe it's powerful, and particularly when I'm having to tricky or important conversations in a work context, I find myself addressing the person by their name.

00:25:04:17 - 00:25:32:09
Speaker 1
Like Mark. We this is a really important conversation for us. Mark Right. This and for some reason it seems to be appropriate, as it does, the capability of introducing people who don't know each other and remembering both of their names. It means you are endorsing and respecting them. And I believe that it a hard of things, starting with good manners and respect.

00:25:32:11 - 00:25:34:15
Speaker 1
I mean, what's not to like about that?

00:25:34:15 - 00:26:04:14
Speaker 2
Mark Honestly, Mike, it's amazing in the communities that I've joined, both from a work perspective as well as social, I am always incredibly touched by those individuals who will not only remember my name, but maybe they'll remember something about me. Maybe it's a story I've told, maybe it's a situation I've ended up in. And what it does is it creates an immediate connection.

00:26:04:16 - 00:26:38:18
Speaker 2
And you're right, it's this word respect. You're suddenly in an equal space. You know, if the individual let's say, Mike, that you've introduced me to this third party, the fact that, you know, you've introduced me, maybe you've said something about me specifically, you called out my name. It shows me. Okay, well, Mike's taken time to remember me. He knows and respects me, so therefore, I already going back to this idea of trust that we were talking about earlier, the scale of trust, that trust increases.

00:26:38:20 - 00:26:54:07
Speaker 2
Because now I know. Hey, I think I think Mike is going to be reliable if he's able to remember something quite small like my name, I can trust him with other information. I think I can trust him with a project or a key deliverable because I believe that he's going to be able to remember and keep his word.

00:26:54:10 - 00:27:17:24
Speaker 2
So again, Mike, I'm seeing a lot of connection between that first clip. We heard this idea of influence and now this. It comes down to reliability, doesn't it? It comes down to this insight around behaving in a way that you would like to be treated and what it does. Hey, it lowers those barriers between individuals and therefore you're going to do better work together.

00:27:18:00 - 00:27:18:25
Speaker 2
What do you think?

00:27:19:02 - 00:27:30:06
Speaker 1
And what Dale Carnegie goes on to talk about is that if you want to be interesting to others, you need to be interested in them.

00:27:30:08 - 00:27:33:23
Speaker 2
That's it. Yes, I remember that one. That's right. Yeah. That's nice.

00:27:33:23 - 00:28:15:05
Speaker 1
And this is the thing, like as a leader, if you want to lead people, you need to understand what's going on for them and genuinely have a level of interest and curiosity, whether it's like, what's their set up at home? What are they into outside of work? What are they looking forward to? What are their challenges? It's how can we possibly want people to follow us if we're not paying some sort of interest in them?

00:28:15:10 - 00:28:40:12
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. And I and I'm sure we all have. I've worked with colleagues, but also leaders who in my opinion, have never really shown that level of interest. PERAINO And what what does it lead to? Well, it kind of leads to the opinion, yeah, I could probably work a bit harder for this boss, but I mean, he doesn't really know my name, let alone anything else.

00:28:40:12 - 00:28:59:12
Speaker 2
So I'm not I'm not going to be motivated. So obviously the name is an extreme, but I think you're right. If you unless you are leading again from a level of influence, as we heard in that first clip, how do you expect anybody to have trust and follow you into the battlefield?

00:28:59:14 - 00:29:27:19
Speaker 1
Yes. And and check this out. I believe that you can find a connection with anybody. And all you have to do is get rid of your social status to rid of your profession, and you will eventually come to you and me. We're human beings. We're just trying to do our best in the world. Yeah. And that gets you a billion people that you've got something in common with.

00:29:27:21 - 00:29:30:21
Speaker 2
That's a few. It's going to be a lot of names to remember.

00:29:30:23 - 00:29:54:25
Speaker 1
Now, this is like a game of concentric circles. It gets a bit wobbly after that because then, like, what language do you speak? You know, what religion are you and all that kind of stuff. It gets a little, you know, filtered out. And my point is, is like in the end of the day, the people that you're in a sports team with or your family or your community or the people at work in the end, we're all humans trying our best in our special way.

00:29:54:25 - 00:30:13:21
Speaker 1
And you can always come back to that right? And that's where if you respect people, you can always just go through all those levels and go, okay, they seem pretty crazy at work, but what's the story behind it? And just get to the point like, my gosh, I totally connect to them because we both like Paper Machine.

00:30:13:24 - 00:30:14:07
Speaker 1
I don't.

00:30:14:07 - 00:30:17:06
Speaker 2
Know. Yeah.

00:30:17:08 - 00:30:40:18
Speaker 1
If you, if you listeners, members and viewers, if you love your papier maché head to moonshots then I know I'm kidding you actually though if you do want to dig in to Dale Carnegie hit are the moonshots done? I check out the back catalog and have a listen to that show. But. But, Mike, we're halfway through. We've got a ton more to give you.

00:30:40:20 - 00:30:45:24
Speaker 1
What's the next low that we want to dig into from a mr. Maxwell himself?

00:30:46:00 - 00:31:04:17
Speaker 2
Well, this one, I think we we heard a very soft, quite beautiful story in that last clip. So I think this time we're going to go a little bit heavier hitting. We're going to hear some hard truths from John C Maxwell today. We're now going to get into one of his other laws from the 21 irrefutable laws of leadership.

00:31:04:20 - 00:31:12:22
Speaker 2
And this one is all about calling and offering and honoring the law of the lit.

00:31:12:24 - 00:31:43:23
Speaker 3
The first law of the 21 irrefutable laws of leadership is little. The lid which basically says leadership ability determines a person's level of effectiveness. In other words, how well you lead determines how well you succeed. You see over 35 years ago, I came to the conclusion that everything rises and falls on leadership. Think about that for a moment.

00:31:43:25 - 00:32:19:03
Speaker 3
Everything rises or falls on leadership. In other words, how well you lead not only determines how well you succeed, how well you lead, determines how well the people that follow you succeed. Leadership has a multiplying effect, either positively or negatively on people. This is huge and when I became convinced that everything rises and falls on leadership, I looked at that in the business world and found it was true.

00:32:19:06 - 00:32:43:24
Speaker 3
I looked at it in the religious world, found it was true, looked at the education world, found out it was true, looked at the governance world, found out it was true. It's true in your life right now, in your organization, everything rises and falls on leadership. Your leadership is the lead that determines the level of your success. Let me illustrate with my hand for a moment.

00:32:43:24 - 00:33:02:20
Speaker 3
Let's say that this is my leadership lead. This is how well John Maxwell leads. And let's say I'm an average leader. I'm a five out of a 1 to 10, I'm a five. So I'm an average leader. This is my leadership lead. What this means is that my organization, my business, whatever, I'm trying to lead my community group, whatever it is I'm leading.

00:33:02:22 - 00:33:24:01
Speaker 3
If I'm a five as a leader, what that means is that my leadership and my success will only become a four. I can't be successful beyond and above my leadership lead. My leadership lead holds down my potential.

00:33:24:03 - 00:33:59:25
Speaker 1
The lead Mark. my gosh. I think we're getting into the heart of the matter here because, I mean, I heard so much here. I'm going to start with, Yeah, To succeed you have to lead or to lead is to succeed. I think that connection is already like that one, a big one. But where I want to go to is the connect tivity between your performance and subsequently those around you and the organizations.

00:34:00:01 - 00:34:00:10
Speaker 2
Know.

00:34:00:12 - 00:34:36:25
Speaker 1
What Maxwell is saying is your ability to lead affects those around you and therefore the overall group here. And what we could do is now say that differently. Your ability to build trust, take care of support, help each individual and our collective cores is how you gain influence and get the ship sailing in the right direction towards the overall goal, which is the mission and the vision that we have with why we're together all comes back to Do you do what you say?

00:34:36:25 - 00:35:08:03
Speaker 1
Do you listen to others? Do you serve others or are playing the hyper selfish defensive? It's not my job. Blame the others DOT for COVID. Leave the office five because you're too damn scared to leave. That's what I heard. That's the lead. And I think we all face this decision. Do we push through the discomfort and attempt to lead or do we run for the hills?

00:35:08:05 - 00:35:32:20
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think you're totally right. I think this is the this is the hard truth, isn't it? Because I think there's a lot of us, including myself, you know, particularly in my more junior years of having a career, I would probably have leaned away from leadership because of the responsibility is because of the fear of doing it wrong.

00:35:32:25 - 00:35:54:21
Speaker 2
But the fear, I suppose, is that is the key word here. I was afraid of it, which is probably common for a lot of people. But what I find very, very surprising, and that would be the word when I was when we were digging into the show today, you know, this clip in particular took me a little bit by surprise because I realized it was a penny drop moment.

00:35:54:23 - 00:36:34:07
Speaker 2
I can't expect to be a fantastic individual within my team as a leader if my leadership skills are, you know, pretty average. Because at the end of the day, when you have direct reports, they are going to be inspired by your behavior. So they need to have the best version of a leader that's available. So not only do you have to others and the business to be a good leader, but actually, as we're finding out from Maxwell and this is the penny drop moment to not invest the time in becoming a good leader, obviously there's lots of different ways to do that.

00:36:34:07 - 00:36:58:03
Speaker 2
As we've delved into on the seven leaders on the Servant Leadership series. But if you don't want to lean into empathy, you don't want to understand and respect others, what you're doing is you're setting yourself back because you can't ever go beyond and further your career because you're always stuck in the in the bleachers. You know, you're not on the pitch playing the game because you're afraid to get out there.

00:36:58:05 - 00:37:20:02
Speaker 2
I think as we heard in last week's show with Brené Brown, this idea of vulnerability certainly came through. I think where Maxwell is now taking us here is saying, well, we vulnerability is true and it's going to exist, but it's up to you whether you smash through that glass ceiling of your fear of leadership and therefore raise the lid a little bit higher.

00:37:20:05 - 00:37:49:00
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think for me, Mike, when I heard this clip for the first time and you know, we're digging into it now, this was a good invitation to me to really assess. And what I mean by that is think about reflect on and judge the way that I lead my team and question whether I'm doing it correctly. Am I doing it with enough, you know, emphasis, with enough enthusiasm, with enough inspiration, but also more importantly, with enough direction?

00:37:49:02 - 00:38:08:09
Speaker 2
Are there enough, you know, let's call them KPIs or whatever you want to call it. Is there enough actionable elements that my team are able to follow in order to be the best version of their team that they can be? If I'm not setting that, my lid is closed and I'm not getting myself any better and the team are getting better either.

00:38:08:11 - 00:38:11:20
Speaker 2
It's a surprising insight. This one, I think.

00:38:11:22 - 00:38:34:17
Speaker 1
It reminds me of. There's a lot of scientific research supporting the idea that the first five years of a child is very critical because they will do a lot of their you know, they talk about nature versus nurture, right? So there there's their inherent nature and then there's what they nurtured. And a lot of that nurturing happens in the first five years.

00:38:34:19 - 00:38:57:01
Speaker 1
And from whom the parent? And how does that lead turn up in parenting? There is a lot of evidence that chill children will adjust their lead based on modeling the behavior of their parents. If their parents say, thank you, what do you think the kids say? Mike?

00:38:57:03 - 00:38:59:04
Speaker 2
Thank you, Mike.

00:38:59:06 - 00:39:05:11
Speaker 1
If the kids are aggressive, sorry. If the parents are aggressive, what do you think the kids are going to do?

00:39:05:13 - 00:39:09:14
Speaker 2
They're going to be aggressive, too. They're going to follow suit. They're going to follow the pattern.

00:39:09:16 - 00:39:40:14
Speaker 1
And leadership in organization is exactly the same idea. Only ask of those around you to do what you are prepared to do. It's a very common little piece of wisdom, but if you're not prepared to do the work well, hey, what about going the extra mile? Is it fair that you have the expectation that somehow magically you're going to take it easy and everybody else is going to go the extra mile?

00:39:40:16 - 00:39:42:05
Speaker 1
Hell no.

00:39:42:07 - 00:40:03:16
Speaker 2
Then it doesn't work like that. Know that you've got to again, it's this idea of behavior, isn't it? Yes, It's maybe even, you know, going back to Abby Wambach, you know, if you can lead from the bench, then then that's a great leader because you're able to put into practice the things that you've taught them, perhaps.

00:40:03:18 - 00:40:04:09
Speaker 1
Well.

00:40:04:11 - 00:40:05:08
Speaker 2
Let's use.

00:40:05:10 - 00:40:31:12
Speaker 1
You know, in Abby's example, I mean, just to go back to that magic story, arguably the greatest soccer career in history across all genders, and she gets benched for the last game in the World Cup and she's on the sideline on the bench, cheering, helping, supporting and not for a moment doing bullying.

00:40:31:14 - 00:40:32:19
Speaker 2
I would put me.

00:40:32:21 - 00:40:51:07
Speaker 1
In a world and I got benched and I'm never happy and I don't have my Mercedes friend in and no, she's like, let's go girls. We're going to get this done. And that just raised the lid insanely.

00:40:51:09 - 00:41:06:09
Speaker 2
It's exactly, exactly that intention, that behavior, it demonstrated to the team. Well, if I'm not bothered by it, you shouldn't be either. In fact, if I'm sitting on the bench, I'm still this enthusiastic and and ready for this game to.

00:41:06:11 - 00:41:07:14
Speaker 1
Be a level of my head.

00:41:07:14 - 00:41:11:02
Speaker 2
If you're on yet, you'd better meet me here.

00:41:11:04 - 00:41:43:25
Speaker 1
So this this is this is fantastic because I think where we're what we're seeing is you got to lead to succeed. You've got to really understand that you earn this influence through your daily behaviors. And I believe that if you're doing this in a cycle, then you've got some but not all of the picture. And I think this last clip opens up the opportunity to reflect on this process and to continuously improve it.

00:41:44:01 - 00:41:48:13
Speaker 1
So, Mark, why don't you slay us with your last clip for the show?

00:41:48:15 - 00:42:10:21
Speaker 2
Well, might get ready to be slight because this clip, I think it's going to be inspirational. I think it's going to set us up as we think what are the things that we need to start putting into practice to really help us raise our lids as well as our creativity? Let's hear from Maxwell. Sadly, it's going to be the clip of today's show, number 250.

00:42:10:23 - 00:42:20:03
Speaker 2
But let's hear from Max. Give us some classic daily wisdom around jotting and how writing gives Maxwell direction.

00:42:20:06 - 00:42:56:00
Speaker 3
I write every day, and what I've discovered is this writing brings clarity to thinking. In fact, the process goes something like this. I think it. I say it, I write it. Sane gives me buy in to what I'm thinking, but writing gives me direction. You see something that you have written, It's very clear. In fact, that's why when you read something, it is so much more.

00:42:56:02 - 00:43:17:02
Speaker 3
Not only visual to you, but you immediately can see a good sentence from a bad sentence because it's written when you hear and it just kind of runs together. So when I talk about writing every day, what I'm saying is you need to spend time reflecting and learning. So you begin to you don't have to be a journal person.

00:43:17:04 - 00:43:41:07
Speaker 3
You don't have to do that just just to be a jot person. I jot. I really don't journal. Just just have your iPhone ready or have something quick that you can just every day write down your thoughts, Write down your quotes. Never let a day, never let a day escape without writing down something that's worth repeating. Yes, that's worth repeating.

00:43:41:10 - 00:44:00:13
Speaker 3
In fact, I get my iPhone and I open up to my sections where I jot and where I put these thoughts in quotes. And every day I just pull it down and I just look at it and reflect on it. Writing makes you a clear leader and clarity gives confidence.

00:44:00:15 - 00:44:24:17
Speaker 1
Clarity gives confidence. He was on a bit of a roll there, Mark, but I will take you back to what he said. Write down something worth repeat. Oof! So, you know, I'm going to forgive John C Maxwell. He's talking a little slang on the old journaling there, Mark, And he's on sensitive ground with you in me there, isn't he?

00:44:24:19 - 00:44:53:11
Speaker 2
I mean, look, I know I had to weigh up whether I was going to put this clip in. I know that our listeners and particularly our members will be familiar with our testimonies around journaling and reflection and so on. But the reason why I think this one is such a practice that we should, you know, re enforce or encourage is the fact it's a way of repeating information.

00:44:53:13 - 00:45:15:06
Speaker 2
And that's the key. The key takeaway, as you've just said as well, Mike. Rather than you know, where we would go with journaling around, reflecting on the things that we have, you know, Don felt the way that we are interpreting things to hold ourselves accountable and take ownership of certain behaviors, motivations and so on. I think Maxwell's point is slightly different here.

00:45:15:08 - 00:45:38:11
Speaker 2
I feel like Maxwell's point here is a little bit more around maybe Julie Cameron's book around morning pages, I believe, where are jotting based more on inspiration as well as things that you've learned. And I like this idea because then that helps us become leaders that are going to teach, that can share wisdom, share information, where I'm getting inspired by this idea of jotting.

00:45:38:14 - 00:45:56:07
Speaker 2
It is quite different in my mind to, you know, the classic journaling because it has a different type of, let's call it deliverable. It's possible that I'll jot something down and say, Hey, might you never guess what I what I what I wrote down yesterday? Check this out. It feels a little bit more sharable, I suppose, is one way of putting it.

00:45:56:09 - 00:45:59:22
Speaker 2
But also, Mike, it feels much more like a mantra.

00:45:59:24 - 00:46:09:08
Speaker 1
yeah. And you know, I'm a bit partial to a good mantra, Mark. I do every single so every single day, right?

00:46:09:10 - 00:46:28:06
Speaker 2
And I think that's where Maxwell goes towards the end of the clip where he'll pull down the notes and, you know, drop in and out every so often to get maybe a little bit of inspiration. I feel as though maybe Maxwell could take a leaf out of your book, Mike, and, you know, start hitting the daily mantra a little bit more and maybe even getting some journaling in there.

00:46:28:08 - 00:46:46:07
Speaker 2
But I do like the idea of revisiting these moments, let's call them of inspiration. That is that he's dropped down because they lead to sharing knowledge, which I think is which is a wonderful thing for a leader to do. Where were you getting inspired with that clip?

00:46:46:09 - 00:47:21:10
Speaker 1
I believe the power of what he's saying is whether you like to journal or jot. It doesn't matter. Choose what works for you. But I believe where we're presented with so much information throughout the course of a day that if we don't find a mechanism, journaling, jotting, or whatever, if you don't find the thing that works for you, how do you honestly think you're going to process and move from not just knowledge but getting to understanding and from understanding?

00:47:21:10 - 00:47:51:07
Speaker 1
Develop your own insights and from insights. See opportunities the way forward, whatever it is that helps you think clearly, process, digest everything that's going on. If you don't do that, you will be a victim to your environment as opposed to being in control because you won't have a clear view. Of course in a perfect correlation, you won't see it.

00:47:51:09 - 00:48:21:02
Speaker 1
So you'll miss problems and they'll get big and you'll miss opportunities because you'll be blind. Whatever it takes. Journal jot. Jump up and down. If it starts with a J, it sounds like it's all right to me. Crazy. Just go crazy and find a way to process. Martin, You're obviously processing a whole show here. What is the homework assignment for you after digging into 21 irrefutable laws?

00:48:21:04 - 00:48:50:06
Speaker 2
Well, Mike, I think for me, it really comes down into the second half of the show. This idea of the lid, I think there's accountability in there. But also I think it's a great opportunity to really it's an invitation to consider where all of us are within our leadership journeys. We can utilize tools like jotting in order to break through that ceiling and lift the lid because you're able to get better and become an expert.

00:48:50:08 - 00:49:07:23
Speaker 2
But for me, it's it's the lid. That's what I want to dig in. I want to reflect on and see, you know, just how much of a lid. Where's my lid? That's that's what I think I need to go and do, I suppose. What about you? We learn a lot today from John C Maxwell. What stood out to you?

00:49:07:25 - 00:49:34:12
Speaker 1
Well, I do have great appreciation for the lid, and that is one of his unique concepts. I like actually where we started, which is leadership is influence and influences trust and being consistent, Keeping your word. Doing what you said. Being consistent and reliable and transparent. Things we can talk so easily about. But I think it's in the heat of the battle where you have to remember to stay on track.

00:49:34:15 - 00:50:18:09
Speaker 1
Right. It's the classic moment when the snooze alarm comes up as snoozing and losing. Are you jumping out of bed? Right. Are you going to be consistent? Are you going to build the trust to influence others and have true leadership? Who? Marky Mark 250 shows. I got 250 horsepower to process all of that. I want to thank you, Mark, and I want to thank you, our listeners, members and viewers for joining us here on a very special anniversary show, show 250, with John C Maxwell and his 21 irrefutable laws of leadership.

00:50:18:11 - 00:50:45:01
Speaker 1
And boy, that began with the law of influence. How do you build influence with those around you in authority? You earn it every single day. And as you interact with those people, the sweetest word in the world is their name. Don't forget it. And as you move through your organization and, you know, collaborate with different people, remember, you're always setting the bar.

00:50:45:03 - 00:51:02:18
Speaker 1
You're lifting the leader, the level of performance, the level of trust, the level of alignment in the business to where they're going. And it is you get to the end of the day, remember that you need to reflect whether it's journaling or jotting right down and ask yourself, what did you do? How did you do it? Or Why did you do it?

00:51:02:20 - 00:51:18:23
Speaker 1
Do those things and you will be the best version of yourself. Do those things with us here on the Moonshot podcast and you'll be doing it while we learn out loud together. So come join us. Be a leader to succeed here on the Moonshot podcast. That's a wrap.